Drudge: NYT's Safire Predicts 'Major Terror Attack In United States'

[Postman]

before election.......

to which I might add -- even if Bush has to do it himself. Ain't no other way this turkey gets re-selected.

[MikeG]

1. TERRA ALERT!!!! TERRA ALERT!!!! WOOP!!!! WOOP!!!!

[Cannikin]

3. 'Murka's in danger! Panic everyone now!

Quick! Duct tape yourself into a room!

[slammin]

55. Five Times More Americans Killed at WTC than last two WARS

Terrorism isn't a legitimate concern? Those of us who think it is would like to know why we shouldn't worry so much.

[devilgrrl]

65. Looks like we got ourselves another...

[theHandpuppet]

72. A little perspective...

According to data from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), six times as many people died in alcohol-related crashes - an average of one every half-hour -- than perished at the WTC.  These deaths constituted approximately 41 percent of total traffic fatalities. (See www.madd.org)

According to a February 1997 report by the Centers for Disease Control, the rate of firearm deaths among children 0 to 14 years old is nearly twelve times higher in the U.S. than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (http://www.hedricksmith.com/site_solutions/press/pressstats.htm)

Nearly five times as many Americans -- over 14,000 -- died last year from complications of HIV/AIDs than died at the WTC. (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/aids-hiv.htm) while six times as many died as victims of homicide.

28,663 Americans died as the result of firearms in 2000, almost ten times the number killed on 9/11. (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/firearms.htm)

Conversely, five people died as the result of Anthrax attacks (which may actually have been an act of domestic terrrorism) as opposed to the 90+ who were killed by lightning.

These stats are not offered to in any way make light of the 9/11 tragedy, but to keep in some sort of rational perspective the actual threat compared to the constant level of hysteria promoted by the Bush administration. If the threat is imminent and real, then it is downright criminal to encourage a million people to jam themselves into Times Square tonight while touting a "Bring it on!" swagger and guns at every corner. What exactly is the point of raising the terror alert level while encouraging people to carry on with their huge public gatherings et al as if its just business as usual? The terror threats become little more than hysteria for hysteria's sake.

As for the vast majority of Americans tonight, the greatest threat to their safety are the drunks behind the wheel, not the terrorists in the skies.

[ithacan]

73. Bush election in 2004 is Osama's wet dream

Bush is so inept in foreign policy, I'd say it is possible Al Qaeda or others would do something just to ensure his election.

Bush is the terra'ists' best friend! His bullying ways, his thuggery, are the best way for them to fill their ranks.

look at Iraq, that war happened as if written in Osama's own bunker: He got rid of Saddam, who was a mortal enemy of Islamists, and the war is filling the ranks for him.

On the other hand, given the track record of the Bush regime, I would put absolutely nothing past them. If they perceive any danger at all to a victory in 2004, they will come up with something, we can be assured of that.

[snippy]

74. Bush needs terrorists.

Without terrorists, rabid republicans would have gnawed Bush's nuts off by now.

Concerning the number of Americans among the dead at the WTC, how does that compare to the number of Iraqi civilians killed by Bush?

[gristy]

75. self-sensored

[NoKingGeorge]

77. Hey, Welcome to the most informed and helpful site

a Patriot ever saw. Welcome to Du.

[BeyondGeography]

2. What a windbag

Will Hillary be involved?

[Sperk]

4. Why Oh Why would another attack on Smirky's watch HELP him?

This is one upside down world we are living in.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Because he would declare martial law and suspend elections...

...indefinitely.

The NeoCons are NOT going to give away the power they so recently acquired. They intend to hold it for as long as they can.

[maggrwaggr]

29. exactly

And you heard it here first, folks.

[mouse7]

5. Safire endorses Combes for Dem Nomination

Safire: "Democrat candidates should come with their bones removed. That's why I support Combes."

[jayfish]

8. How Can He Do That When Combes...

is going to endorse Bushit for President. He's a pragmatic one ya know... kinda like Zell Miller :eyes:

Jay

[mmm]

6. why don't they fire that xxxxxxx

he sucks

[MikeG]

10. He's supposed to suck. If he grew balls he'd be fired.

[Skittles]

33. may I remind you

he already f***ing HAS balls. How about a woman instead ???

[Martin_Frick]

7. I think you're woefully wrong there

<<to which I might add -- even if Bush has to do it himself.>>

If there is a second terrorist attack, and Dean is the Democrat nominee, kiss 2004 goodbye. Only Lieberman and Gephardt would stand a chance against Bush.

And by the way -- "adult time". I may not agree with Bush's politics, but I don't believe for a second that he wanted 9/11 to happen, nor had advance specific knowledge it would happen. I don't believe Bush wants thousands of American citizens to die just to advance tax breaks for Haliburton. That's the same sort of crazy talk we heard in 1998 when the Elephants were accusing Clinton of "wagging the dog" by bombnig Iraq to take attention off the impeachment trial.

I guess I'm naive, but I think Bush is just a simple-minded pit bull. Maybe others around him are these hideous evil bloody-fanged monsters you assume they are, but I just refuse to believe George Bush is the bloody-fanged monster some of you need to believe he is. In fact, that stereotype has too much power and it overwhelms the dim-bulb reality, and the more attention we give to attacking and addressing the bloody-fanged stereotype as opposed to addressing the dim-bulb reality of Bush, the more like kook-fringe conspiracy crackpots we appear to mainstream Americans. The more time we spend attacking the boogey-man instead of Bush-the-Man, the farther away from the Oval Office we'll remain.

[soothsayer]

9. * doesn't care if thousands of americans die

just watch him proliferate his insane wars

that guy and his evil administration are nuts

[T Bone]

11. Could be, Martin, but the other choice is that Bush was

incompetent on 911. You gotta beef with that?

[revcarol]

12. Maybe you missed the "9/11 could have been prevented" statement

by the Republican chair of the 9/11 investigation!! OOOPS, I FORGOT...IT'S SCRUBBED.

We've got to stop thinking about how something will appear to repuglicans.They will try to decimate us no matter what.

I could not in my wildest dreams have imagined the devastation that the Bush administration has wreaked on the country.Sez she, putting tinfoil hat on... :tinfoilhat: I don't trust 'em, and I don't put anything past them.

[NNN0LHI]

17. Its not scrubbed. Here it is

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13300-2003Dec18.html

Kean Says 9/11 Attacks Could Have Been Prevented

By Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 19, 2003; Page A25


The chairman of the commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks said he believes that the strikes could have been prevented, a claim that President Bush's spokesman rejected yesterday.

In an interview with CBS News broadcast Wednesday night, Tom Kean, the former Republican governor of New Jersey who was chosen by Bush to head the panel, said the attacks could have been avoided. "I do not believe it had to happen," he said in the interview.

Asked whether people should have been fired, he replied: "There were people certainly, if I was doing the job, who would certainly not be in the position that they were in at that time, because they failed. They simply failed."

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said yesterday that the administration has not changed its view on whether the attacks could have been thwarted. "As we have previously said, there is nothing that we have seen that leads us to believe that September 11th could have been prevented," he said. "We previously said that. That still stands."

more

[Martin_Frick]

23. I Believe 9/11 Could Have Been Prevented...

...the same way many car accidents could have been prevented. Hindsight is always 20/20. I don't blame Bush for 9/11 anymore than I blame Clinton. Sad that many Republicans want to blame Clinton for 9/11 -- but I think it's just as sad that many of us want to blame Bush for 9/11. This was an American failure, and as a party, we better come to grips with that, and soon.

We are all in this same boat together. Pointing fingers won't help anyone at this point, and we're fools if we think it will. It only makes us look bitter, angry, or worse -- conspiracy-theory-crazy.

I tell you this -- the first Democrat candidate to walk to the microphone, look into the camera, and tell the American people, "I have great disagreements with my opponents on how we move forward, but right or left, we are all in this together. Right or left, we are all Americans, and right or left, we will stand together as one nation. And together, right and left, we will stand and togeter, we will not allow such nightmares to haunt our American dreams."

That's what's missing from our candidates. Our boys are only speaking to the angry niche base. They aren't cutting George Bush's knees out from under him by attacking the exploitive party division of Karl Rove. By railing against Bush and the war, we're only playing into Rove's hands.

Why *can't* we use the same "tactic" of appealing to the patriotism of the country? Why *can't* we say that it's time to stand together, and make the division of the last 4 years the major campaign theme?

We don't even have to attack Bush personally -- it's the division in the country's soul that is the most hurtful blight on our psyche. Attack THAT.

We are all in this together.

Think about it, you Lieberman and Gephardt campaign manager lurkers.


We are all in this together. The Democratic candidate who understands that and can express that will TRULY unite this country and will restore Democrats to the party that shouldered WWII and the Great Depression.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Martin_Frick]

32. Bush Lackey?

I've never voted Republican in my life, thanks.

And I'm not talking about what *you* guys believe. I'm talking about what *I* believe. Frankly, I just don't buy the whole "Evil Bloody-Fanged Bush Knew Thousands Would Die on 9/11" conspiracy horescrap. Did the government fail the people on 9/11?

Sure, just as they did on 12/7/41. Ever see Richard Fleischer's Tora! Tora! Tora!? It's a catalogue of all the US intelligence failures. Doesn't mean Roosevelt wanted the attacks on Pearl Harbor to happen, although conspiracy theorists have alleged that, too.

No -- my friends, there is a great Jewish proverb that says, more or less, that God will punish you for hating your enemies by keeping them around longer.

I think our best - and only - shot at winning in 2004 is not by running on a "destroy Bush" platform, but by running on a "rebuild and reunite America" platform.

Forget Bush bashing. That path only leads to disaster. Get back to what Democrats do best...America-building.

Bush lackey?

No.

American.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. "Bush lackey"?...

...So far, you've written nothing that would prove otherwise.

[Martin_Frick]

46. If a Democrat Can Only Prove He is a Democrat by Hating...

...If the only way I can prove I'm not a "Bush Lackey" is by posting hate speech and smears instead of recommending positive directions for the party...then our party deserves to lose.

[maggrwaggr]

59. I hear you, Martin, and I agree. But DU is also a place where

people vent their anger. That's why I came here in the first place.

And we're bloody angry as hell.

What's frustrating is that the Dems have no organization the way the right wing does. We expect our candidate to do everything at once, which is basically impossible. Be positive YET tell the truth about Bush. Well, to tell the truth about Bush makes you sound negative, because it's all BAD.

What we need is organization and division of labor, role-playing, so we can have prominent folks in the media telling the truth (and thus being negative) so our candidates can stay above the fray.

We're a very frustrated bunch here. Keep a thick skin and you'll have a good time. If your posts don't get deleted, you're doing okay. :) (I had a post deleted just today)

[gristy]

76. You make a lot of assumptions

Frankly, I just don't buy the whole "Evil Bloody-Fanged Bush Knew Thousands Would Die on 9/11" conspiracy horescrap.

AND

If the only way I can prove I'm not a "Bush Lackey" is by posting hate speech and smears

You seem to be seeing only what you want/expect to see here.

[maggrwaggr]

60. Guys, he doesn't even know about PNAC

Go easy on him. I think he means well, he just doesn't know the stuff we've known for quite some time now.

[Bake]

80. If Martin means well, then WHY

does he keep referring to the "DEMOCRAT" candidate? That's like waving a red flag in front of me, and it smells like a troll ...

We are not the "Democrat Party." We are the DEMOCRATIC Party! But you all know that, of course. Martin apparently does not.

Bake

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. Preventing 911 has NOTHING to do with hindsight being 20/20...

...but it has everything to do with what the NeoCons knew and when they knew it.

It has everything to do with why the NeoCons are not cooperating with the 911 Commission.

It has everything to do with why Condi Rice has stated that she will not testify before the 911 Commission while under oath.

It has everything to do with the PNACers belief that the American people had to be stimulated "by another Pearl Harbor" to support any actions in the Middle East.

It has everything to do with the fact that six of the hijackers attended U.S. military schools prior to attending flight school in Florida.

Even my 83 year old WWII vet father has figured it out, and he's not very happy about it. By the way, he's not the ONLY WWII vet that's pissed.

[Martin_Frick]

37. Crackpot Nonsense

<<...but it has everything to do with what the NeoCons knew and when they knew it.>>

There are Republicans running around alleging Clinton did not capture Osama because it would be a bad political move. Every side creates their own "blame game" and you know what? Blame games will not win the White House.

<<It has everything to do with why the NeoCons are not cooperating with the 911 Commission.>>

I don't see a dark conspiracy there, I see people being careful about releasing information regarding how we (and yes, people, WE, as in OUR Government) responded to 9/11.

<<It has everything to do with why Condi Rice has stated that she will not testify before the 911 Commission while under oath.>>

Same reason most political operatives don't want to testify under oath. Too many conflicting loyalties create too many interpretations of the Truth. Again, no dark conspiracy. Just good old fashioned political reality.

<<It has everything to do with the PNACers belief that the American people had to be stimulated "by another Pearl Harbor" to support any actions in the Middle East.>>

Did these Masons or PNACers or Skull-and-Boners or Anti-Castro-Cubans or whoever also convince Osama to discuss the attacks on videotape?

<<It has everything to do with the fact that six of the hijackers attended U.S. military schools prior to attending flight school in Florida.>>

Define "military schools". If you mean "universities with military training programs", then *I* attended a "military school"....called the University of Texas at Austin.

I received a Bachelor of Fine Arts.

Can't wait for my secret Evil NeoCon Military Indoctrination to kick in.

<<Even my 83 year old WWII vet father has figured it out, and he's not very happy about it. By the way, he's not the ONLY WWII vet that's pissed.>>

He can believe what he wants. You believe what you want. I will believe what I think is most believable...to me.

[maggrwaggr]

40. The man in the videotape is NOT Osama. Look at this photo

it's pretty obvious this "fat Osama" (on the far right) is NOT Osama Bin Laden



I used to think the way you do, Martin, until I really started researching it. The more you research it, the stinkier it gets!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. What's believable to you...

...is "crackpot nonsense" to most rational people.

You might have better luck discussing your "ideas" on the Freeper board.

[Skittles]

34. you are so f***ing wrong

sucking up to republicans has gotten us NOWHERE. We are NOT "in this together". WE DID NOT WANT THIS ILLEGAL INVASION. I'll support the troops but BUSH INC.CAN GO TO HELL.

[Confused]

69. Fresh Air

While I don't agree totally with what you're saying, I like the message. It is tim eto concentrate on what is right for the citizens of The United States of America and not just the left or right. Frankly, I'm tired of partisanship grinding any true progress to a halt.

First post here - nice to be here

Happy New Year

[calimary]

84. Welcome to DU, Confused!

Maiden post, 'eh? Congratulations!

Happy New Year and Peace!

[newyawker99]

89. Hi Confused!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

78. have you noticed the anti-"conspiracy theory" posts since Kean's statement

They are coming out of the woodwork - "Don't say Bush was warned about 911 (even though he was) because your average American will think we're all a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists.

With Kean and Mariani making statements and Rice unable to lie with a straight face, perhaps the heat is being turned up.

[Minstrel Boy]

13. Why did Israel re-elect Sharon, when he incites attacks upon Israelis?

It may be counter-intuitive, but a perceived strongman will generally triumph in a time of crisis, even if the crisis is largely of his own making.

Another attack, and most Americans will not hold Bush to account, especially close to the event. They will rally to him. And the White House has been drumming into their heads for two and a half years that another attack is not an if, but a when. They can say "We told you so - see again the nature of the enemy we're up against? Who do you trust to take the fight to them?"

[RainDog]

16. but supposedly Israelis (except for settlers and likud)

are not buying Sharon's ideas about how to stop terrorism, since his ideas haven't, in fact, stopped terrorism.

so, in the case of Sharon, having a hardliner taking a hardline is now making the populace weary of warmongering rather than steps toward peacemaking.

since Safire is Sharon's good buddy, wonder if Sharon is putting out the big scary threat for the benefit of his neocon buddies, Wolfowitz and Perle, since they are quickly becoming too politically damaging for Bush?

Or maybe Sharon doesn't like it that Baker is negotiating rather than bombing.

And the aid to Iran must make Sharon unhappy, too, since that could re-open the doors to negotiations with Iran instead of bombing them.

[Minstrel Boy]

22. I think you're right, Israelis are weary.

Yet, though many didn't expect their situation to improve under another Sharon government, they elected him anyway. It's the grim reality of being ruled by a thug who projects the image that he's tough enough to defend the citizenry against the violence his very actions incite.

But I think, for America, the question is moot. An attack on the order of 9/11 and, as Tommy Franks said, that's it: martial law, and the likely suspension of the vote.

[calimary]

85. Shit - that sounds like a description of your average bush supporter.

"though many didn't expect their situation to improve under another Sharon government, they elected him anyway. It's the grim reality of being ruled by a thug who projects the image that he's tough enough to defend the citizenry against the violence his very actions incite."

Pegged it, pegged it, pegged it. That sounds like what the average Nascar dad might say. And/or the marginally-informed.

on edit - awwww, feeling guilty about dissing Nascar dads - too much New Year trepidation...

[Martin_Frick]

39. The One and Only Correct Answer

Give Minstrel a Cee-Gar. He nailed it.

One of my favorite films is Merchant's Remains of the Day, and Chris Reeve has a great monologue where he talks about incompetent politicians headed towards disaster, because they do not deal in the "real politik". They deal in old-school gentlemen politics.

Minstrel is talking Real Politiks, and so am I.

Want to defeat Bush?

Stop acting like angry foaming-at-the-mouth lunatic conspiracy whackos, and get into the game, and engage the American people on a REAL level they can RESPOND to. Don't let the Republicans hog the Patriotism issue, take that issue to the American people. Republicans tried to steal Medicare? Guess what -- doesn't take a genius to steal a "stand together" message from the Republicans.

Only takes a microphone and an audience.

The path of hatred will lead us all nowhere.

Sad, simple, truth.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Martin_Frick]

49. Yeah....post-count = correct analysis

So, post-count = valid argument?

If that was true, Star Trek would have been long ago named the greatest single artistic achievement in all of human history.

Fanboys come in many shapes and sizes...and affiliations.

[Minstrel Boy]

47. As you're new here I'll accept the compliment. But I'll have you know

I'm a fully paid-up "angry foaming-at-the-mouth lunatic conspiracy whacko."

My real politik answer shouldn't be interpreted as my advocating trying to out-Bush Bush. That is a loser right out of the gate - Lieberman and Gephart simply can't do it. To the contrary, the Democrats need to take the issue of security away from Bush, by hammering that Americans have been made less secure by his choices. Are you safer than you were four years ago? It's a long shot, but not so long as imitating a Republican, and it's the only shot the Democrats have.

But then again, I believe the question is academic, because one way or another, the United States will not be holding a free and fair presidential election in 2004.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maggrwaggr]

61. I guess Martin didn't take the right pill

Oh well. Back into the Matrix for Martin.

(sigh) I don't think he was a freeper. I think we were too hard on him.

[Minstrel Boy]

62. Well, like Cypher said,

"If you'da told us the truth, we woulda told you to shove that red pill right up your ass."

[maggrwaggr]

63. yeah, no kidding! That's the problem here, actually!

Knowing what we now know, we come across as kooks to the uninitiated.

Maybe we need a DU - 101 for people to start in before they "graduate" to the real DU.

The truth is pretty shocking after all. The gap between what most people think they know, and what you find after you study this shit is, well, wide and deep and shocking.

And the more I study the truth, the smellier it gets.

[Minstrel Boy]

66. the damn thing is, ignorance really can be bliss

Lots of people still walking around out there without their worlds turned upside down. And they like it that way. Sometimes I hesitate sharing what I've learned, because I don't want to be the cause of ruining what bliss they've got happening. That, and I don't want them to think me totally mad.

"Put the glasses on!"

[drb]

14. You might want to dig around about this...

...a little more to understand for yourself where we all get this "bloody fanged stereotype."

You could start by looking into the number of executions on Your Boy George's watch as governor, and see how that compares to any other state.

You could look into George's remarks mocking Karla Faye Tucker.

There are plenty of people who are both dim and mean - the sets do intersect. In this case, they intersect in the White House.

[Martin_Frick]

44. I'm from Texas...

<<You could start by looking into the number of executions on Your Boy George's watch as governor, and see how that compares to any other state.>>

Yeah, but -- a) that's Texas, a HUGE southern border state with a rather unique cultural history involving bloody revolution. Comparing the number of executions in Texas to the number of executions in, say, Rhode Island, or even most other states, even California, ignores some salient facts about the cultural makeup of 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th generation Texans.

b) Comparing the number of executions in Texas to the number of executions in Rhode Island is like comparing the number of drunk teenagers at a U2 concert to the number of drunk teenagers at a Hall and Oates concert. Biggest southern state, biggest southern border, more poverty, more adversity, more crime, more violent crime, plus culture primed to violence = more executions. Relative to population growth, how many more executions ocurred under Ann Richards or Mark White? The crazy thing is -- most of Texas' death peanlty laws were written by TEXAS STATE DEMOCRATS!

<<You could look into George's remarks mocking Karla Faye Tucker.>>

Have you seen "Journeys with George"? Good God, the DNC should just buy up all the air time on CBS and NBC and run that movie non-stop from October 1st to November.

<<There are plenty of people who are both dim and mean - the sets do intersect. In this case, they intersect in the White House.>>

Does that mean people in the White House conspired to allow the deaths of thousands of Americans and make orphans of thousands more on 9/11? Just to make money for Haliburton?

Come on, friends.

[VelmaD]

81. I'm gonna try to say this without being REALLY mean

I'm from Texas too Martin and it smacks of rank racism every time you say that Texas has more executions because of it's large "southern border". :eyes:

[caledesi]

82. RI does not have the death penalty. Very civilzed state. nt

[BeyondGeography]

15. Welcome to DU, Martin

And don't let the crazies get you down.

[Martin_Frick]

48. Thanks...but the people posting here aren't the Democrats I know...

....or ARE they?

[maggrwaggr]

58. there's all types here, Martin. Some of the smartest people

I've ever run into, in cyberspace or otherwise, are here. Then there are some wacky folks as well. :)

This can be an incredibly educational place if you acquire the knack of separating the wheat from the chaff.

[Walt Starr]

18. If there is a second terrorist attack, Bush is toast

regardless of the Democratic nominee.

[papau]

19. "adult time"= incompetent dim-bulb simple-minded pit bull - ???

likable is the only thing that Bush has going for him - and that is overstated via the friendly media lens.

And I agree "911" meaning 3000 dead was not on Bush's agenda. It was - I believe - more of a "it is going to happen and when it does we can use it to sell war on Iraq, and a wartime pres election in 04". So just as Bush chose to not believe the intel warnings about Iraq intel being very soft and Iraq not being a real WMD terror threat, I believe the dozen warnings about the Sept 01 disaster being planned were met with "bring it on" bravado and indifference.

I think Bush had no problem with a Putin level few hundred dying because of gov indifference - or even actions. I do not see him as the monster that looked away from 3000 dead. While I do not see ethics or charity in Barb or her kids, I do not see the evil coming from much more than just money and arrogance.

[RainDog]

24. Adult Time

Only Lieberman and Gephardt would stand a chance against Bush.

-this is a joke. You are trying to say that Lieberman has more clout than Wesley Clark when it comes to terrorism?

-and Gephardt is seen as a labor candidate, not a hawk.

as far as Dean...well, I guess that depends on how the press would spin such an event. you could also ask why our nat'l guard and our money are in Iraq, an unnecessary and mistaken and lie-based war, and why are America's defenses not being taken care of??? why a tax cut for the rich during a time of war???? that's unprecedented, btw...a tax cut when we're supposed to be at war.

there are many ways to attack the way Bush has handled the terrorism crisis, and frankly, I think he and his crew are a threat to American security, rather than a help, and I think this can be shown by their actions.

And by the way -- "adult time". I may not agree with Bush's politics, but I don't believe for a second that he wanted 9/11 to happen, nor had advance specific knowledge it would happen. I don't believe Bush wants thousands of American citizens to die just to advance tax breaks for Haliburton. That's the same sort of crazy talk we heard in 1998 when the Elephants were accusing Clinton of "wagging the dog" by bombnig Iraq to take attention off the impeachment trial.

--okay, adult time. Politicians are about power, and some of them are pretty nasty about it. if you don't know that, you are naive.

if you don't know that Kissinger plotted to stop the Paris peace talks during the Nixon/Humphrey election, you should read up. His interference helped to win the election for Nixon, by making Johnson/Humphrey look bad.

as a little side effect, Kissinger's ploy cost an additional 20,000 American lives. When the peace accords were signed, unlike Kissinger claimed, the South Vietnamese did not get a better deal...they got the same deal they got from the election-era talks.

personally, I don't think Bush knew. I think he's too stupid and easy to manipulate to have known...it would have been better if he had been kept in the dark and could then react as expected.

but that doesn't mean I don't think some in his administration and in other offices of govt didn't know.

there is nothing 'unadult' about such a thought.

read your Machiavelli. He was an adult. It is childish to think that the raw exercise of power would preclude allowing an event to happen.

Look at Putin in Russia. It's pretty sure now that he has set up people by friendly to him KGB bombs blamed on others.

look at Reagan. he and his administration willfully imported drugs into America to pay for a war in Central America. He willfully endorsed genocidal dictators.

many died. they dug up the bodies.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. If you don't believe that Junior at LEAST allowed 911 to happen...

...then you ARE being naive.

Do a study on the actions of the FAA and NORAD on 911, then post what you discover.

[wabeewoman]

83. At the very least allowed.....

My opinion is that bush had such arrogant distain for anything Clinton that he did the opposite of what the Clinton administration recommended and from this spiteful attitude came 9-11. Remember how when they were first in office, the bush administration went to great pains to point out how they were the Anti-Clinton which their followers loved. Of course, the Norad information points to more than allowed but I really can't believe this was anything but gross incompetence!

[maggrwaggr]

31. Martin, when we say "Bush" we mean the group, basically PNAC

Bush is an idiot front man for them and they pretty much keep him locked up in a closet.

[Martin_Frick]

50. What's the PNAC?

Sorry, but I have no idea what the "PNAC" group is.

[maggrwaggr]

56. Project for a New American Century

These are the people who are running the country, and recruited GWB. His brother and his father were already members.

They have a website.

Look around DU and you'll learn a hell of a lot about it. They were formed in the 1990's and it's pretty much everybody who's running the administration including Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Perle, etc. etc.

They advocated invading Iraq years ago, and they advocate total American military supremacy throughout the world, including fighting wars in three theatres at once. They believe in force over diplomacy, and before Bush was selected, they said that their policies would probably never be put into place unless there was the equivalent of "another Pearl Harbor".

Well they got into power, all of them, and lo and behold, we had another Pearl Harbor which gave them the green light to do everything they've been wanting to do.

It's no conspiracy theory, it's right out in the open. You can look all this up.

PNAC is really running the country, and the media has not informed the American people of it. Everybody thinks it's George Bush. It's not.

[mrdmk]

68. A Report of the Project for the New American Century

Links:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Hope you like reading some heavy material. It is not easy.

This document actually started in 1991 with the Bush Sr. Administration. It received such bad press that Mr. Bush Sr. had stated he had nothing to do with it. Of course this is when he was just beginning his reelection campaign. I do not think it help him much and I really think it is not going to help Mr Bush Jr. either.

[TheWatcher]

70. Here's Your Homework Assignment Martin.....

Go To Google.....

Search PNAC or Project For A New American Century.....

Educate yourself.....

Oh, and while you reading up on it, trying to convince yourself that it's all a bunch of "Crackpot Nonsense". take a look at who WROTE it.....

Look REAL hard Martin.....

And then come back here and tell us all how nuts we are.....

Some friendly advice....

It is not usually wise to dismiss things as "Crackpot Nonsense" when you have not explored all the facts available.....

Just because you don't want to beleive something, does not make it any less true or legitimate.....

[Jacobin]

88. Its extremely important to know more about PNAC

The media doesn't talk about it. Read their position papers and who their members are.

Most rational people who find out who these kooks are and what positions they hold in government tend to get, um, what's that "bad" word????......"mad"...yeah, that's it, really really mad.

[Kool Kitty]

52. Bush may not have had anything to do with what happened

on 9/11, and he may not have had any prior knowledge of it. But is you think all he has on his agenda is tax breaks for Halliburton, you are wrong. Take a real long look at what his administration has done since he was installed, and you'll see that he is very like the boogey-man people think he is. And if he's not, he's doing a damn good imitation.

[mrdmk]

67. These people are stonger than the GOP thinks

1. Contrary to popular opinion, Mr. Bush Jr. is not as stupid as many would like to make him out to be. He is a sallow elitist whose only mission in life is to stay in power. The staff that works for him is much of the same. This group of people with all of their credentials, have for the most part, been losers. Their legacy at their previous professional attempts have been lorn and for the most part, the people who worked with them were glad to see them leave.

2. My guess is if America is attacked again, people will have a lower opinion of Bush and Company. For all the money and hype this administration has put out, then to have another terror attack, thus to be put under Marshall Law and suspend all civil rights will be dealt with a disdain these living generations have not seen in a long time. As for Lieberman and Gephardt to stand there and say, “I told you so” will only piss off population even more. Dean, Clark and Kucinich will blow the Homeland Security Department so far out of the water it will not be funny. People of the U.S.A just will not stand for that kind of chicanery.

[Postman]

79. Adult time?...Ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident?

the one that never happened but helped escalate US involvement in Vietnam?

Maybe you've heard of the Reichstag Fire?

Maybe the Battleship Maine?

Ever heard of Operation Northwoods?

My statemente was made tongue-in-cheek regarding "even if Bush has to do it himself"

This administration is not beyond putting us in danger for their own personal gain. They'll shroud it all in "national interest" and wrap it in the flag.

It's called "imperialism". Time to wake up.

[Yavin4]

20. We Should Hire The Lost In Space Robot As DHS Director

Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Danger!

It's far more entertaining than the color alerts.

[drb]

21. Well, heck, that's not too hard to predict. Matter of fact, I'm betting..

...that way myself. Here's why:

Put yourself in Karl Rove's shoes. (Think :evilfrown: evil!) The BBV voting thing is slipping away, as true patriots like Bev Harris expose the scheme.

Look at the economy. It's going down the dumper faster than last night's Taco Bell bean burrito.

Look at the Wilson/Plame affair. According to Will Pitt (my next nominee for sainthood, btw) we've got a real professional prosecutor on the case and Ashkkkroft has recused himself. That's gonna be a bad one, too.

Look at Iraq. There's no WMD's - just a trail of flag-draped caskets being loaded onto planes, carrying sons, daughters, husbands back to their final resting place. Plus thousands and thousands of wounded. The word quagmire is coming more and more into play.

Halliburton/Cheney overcharging for gas in Iraq.

The list goes on and on, and I'm sure the rethuglicans have their own highly accurate polls that are telling them that the news ain't good.

So, what to do?

It's time for the ol' Hail Mary pass! An attack on the 'Merican Homeland, to justify "postponing" the next election and imposing martial law.

Think it couldn't happen? Bet me!

---

500 posts for me!!!!! Woo-hoo!!!!

[Kazak]

30. Niiiice...

:toast:

[Martin_Frick]

53. Bet You?

<<Put yourself in Karl Rove's shoes. (Think evil!) The BBV voting thing is slipping away, as true patriots like Bev Harris expose the scheme.>>

BBV what?

<<Look at the economy. It's going down the dumper faster than last night's Taco Bell bean burrito.>>

Nasdaq is at it's highest level since when? The Dow is at it's highest level sine when? And the economy is going down the crapper? It's on fire, if you believe the Evil Lying Biased Media.

<<Look at the Wilson/Plame affair. According to Will Pitt (my next nominee for sainthood, btw) we've got a real professional prosecutor on the case and Ashkkkroft has recused himself. That's gonna be a bad one, too.>>

For who?

<<Look at Iraq. There's no WMD's>>

Yet. Just Syrian contracts for Nerve Agent Antidotes and unfulfilled contracts for ballistic missiles between Iraq and Korea and an Iraqi scientist whose entire family developed cancer from harboring radiocative mateiral in his home and on and on and on it goes...how long until something real turns up?

<<just a trail of flag-draped caskets being loaded onto planes, carrying sons, daughters, husbands back to their final resting place.>>

And a murderous Iraqi dictator no longer ordering the same. 400 Americans vs. 300,000 Iraqi "thieves" in mass graves? How many Americans died liberating France, Germany and Japan? What price was too high in 1941?

<<Plus thousands and thousands of wounded. The word quagmire is coming more and more into play.>>

You hope.

<<Halliburton/Cheney overcharging for gas in Iraq.>>

Last time I checked, Cheney had to divest his interests in Haliburton in order to serve as VP, and Haliburton had been barred from further gas contracts for the US military in Iraq. Ah, yes! Sanctioning Haliburtion is all a part of the grand scheme!

<<The list goes on and on>>

No, the wacko hate goes on and on, and if we want to beat Bush, we need to get back into the real world, not this conspiracy Masonic PNAC Cheney Anti-Castro Oswald Bush Knew Haliburton b.s.

<<It's time for the ol' Hail Mary pass! An attack on the 'Merican Homeland, to justify "postponing" the next election and imposing martial law. Think it couldn't happen? Bet me!>>

How much.

That's just the sort of goofball wacko rhetoric I've been talking about. Keep that up, you guarantee Bush another 4 years.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWatcher]

71. Martin, Martin, Martin.....

I'm beginning to think you are a disruptor....

You don't know what Black Box Voting is?.....

Time for another Homework assignment.....

www.blackboxvoting.org.....

Of course, it's just more "Crackpot Nonsense" from "Internet Nuts", but on the offhand you are ready to step outside of your protective CNN barrier and actually analyze REAL Information, it's there for you.....

"Nasdaq is at it's highest level since when? The Dow is at it's highest level sine when? And the economy is going down the crapper? It's on fire, if you believe the Evil Lying Biased Media."


Yes, the Nasdaq is over 2000....Still 3000 points down from it's all-time high.....And so what about the Stock Markets anyway Martin?....How does this, and how HAS this solved things for the 4.9 million people that can't get full time jobs?....How does this help the REAL Unemployment Rate of 9.7%?.....How does the Stock Market put food on your table.....Have you ever gotten a job because of how well the Dow was doing....

You don't even know WHY the Markets are doing what they are doing, Martin.....For one thing, The Fed is helping to artificially priop the Market through Mass liquidity injections into the economy, and the most Wreckless Fiscal Monetary Policy of ALL TIME....The current Bear Market Rally is a FARCE, and your short, uninformed answers show me you know nothing about economics either.....That 8.2% GDP you probably like to throw around to people is also a farce....Mostly due to Government Spending.....It has not a damn thing to do with how well the consumer is doing....

The Economy is on FIRE?....WHERE Martin?....WHERE?.....Show some evidence pal.....Think you can chalk it up to job creation....Sure the govenment likes to trot out the ohony Job Creation Statistics over the past three months, but WHAT KINDS of jobs are being created Martin?......

Part-Time, Low Wage, Food-Service, McJobs Martin....America is NOT going to survive economically if we all work at Wal-Mart....And what about the 33,000 people who declared Bankruptcy....LAST MONTH....That's one months statistics Martin, and we have a record level of Bankruptcies in this country, this year.....

And what about the Housing Bubble.....The Debt Bubble....We have the Highest COnsimer Debt in HISTORY, and the only way this economy can keep expanding is to keep expanding the debt....This whole farce that people want to call a recovery is based on DEBT EXPANSION.....At some point the House Of Cards is going to fall, and you won't feel comforatable talking about the Stock Market anymore.....

If the Market is so great why are insiders SELLING at a record pace, Martin....They are Selling 60 times as much as they buy.....This is the Biggest Setup of All Time......

The whole "Recovery" is illusory.....If you have some facts that render impotent everything I've just brought up, you are welcome to do so.....But if all you've got is looking at the latest Stock Market Numbers, and THAT'S your evidence that the economy is on FIRE, you simply do not have a grasp of Economics.....


You've got nothing but Fox News Talking Points to spew at us Martin.....

Please, stop wasting our time.....

[RamboLiberal]

35. Drudge just went overboard - Safire doing his office pool

He's probably about as accurate as the tabloid psychics.

In last year's office pool, for the second year running, I accurately predicted the best-picture Oscar winner. Forget all of the other predictions, which were varying degrees of mistaken; I shoulda been a film critic.

<snip>

12. Howard Dean will (a) sweep Iowa and New Hampshire and breeze to a boring nomination; (b) lose to Gephardt in Iowa and do worse than expected in N.H., leading to a long race; (c) transform himself into the centrist, affable "new Dean"; (d) angrily bolt and form a third party if the nomination is denied him.

13. The "October surprise" affecting our election will be (a) the capture of bin Laden in Yemen; (b) the daring escape of Saddam; (c) a major terror attack in the U.S.; (d) finding a buried bag of anthrax in Tikrit.

14. Debating Cheney on TV will be the Democratic running mate (a) Wes Clark; (b) Bob Graham; (c) Bill Richardson; (d) Dianne Feinstein; (e) John Edwards; (f) Carl Levin.

15. The next secretary of state will be (a) Richard Holbrooke; (b) Paul Bremer; (c) Donald Rumsfeld; (d) John Kerry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/31/opinion/31SAFI.html

[mitchum]

36. Safire isn't "predicting" anything...

that flack has a direct line to the White House. Hell, he already knows when those criminals will stage the next "attack"

[RainDog]

38. also of note

check out the LBN thread about Hawks Tell Bush How to Win the War on Terror.

Perle says we need to invade Syria, Iran, and blockade Korea and back up with military moves to be able to attack them.

He also tells Bush to "come clean about Saudi Arabia."

This is major infighting among the factions in the Bush league. Baker is threatening their war without end and they will not give up their power without a fight.

btw, Safire has had columns in which he quotes his buddy, Sharon...so he's definitely providing back up for Perle here.

fear factor for 43.

edited to add link to article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/31/wcons31.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/12/31/ixportaltop.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=124452

[RamboLiberal]

41. Here's Safires 2003 Pool

Didn't get many right - did predict the war but missed date, but we all could have done that.<snip>

7. Saddam's army will (a) collapse quickly, as in Gulf War I; (b) coordinate a counterattack with al-Qaida to spread germs through U.S. mailboxes; (c) fight fiercely until they see the Turkish army coming; (d) negotiate to disarm and allow Saddam to continue as head of a "changed regime."
8. Fallout from an overthrow of Saddam will be (a) the emergence of a democratic alternative to Arafat in the West Bank; (b) uprising in Syria and Assad's withdrawal from Lebanon; (c) wave of reform shaking the theocracy in Iran; (d) decline in Wahhabi-induced terror as nervous Saudi royals turn westward for protection.
9. Osama bin Laden will (a) be sold out by a trusted supporter for the huge reward; (b) remain at large and take credit on al-Jazeera for any terror attacks anywhere; (c) be captured and, under interrogation, burn his sleeper network.
10. When Chief Justice Rehnquist resigns this summer, Bush will (a) promote Scalia to chief and nominate a not-too-conservative Latino; (b) promote O'Connor and add a very conservative Latino; (c) promote nobody and nominate as chief a normally conservative Latino.

My picks: 1 (all), 2 (c), 3 (a), 4 (b), 5 (b), 6 (a), 7 (c), 8 (all), 9 (a), 10 (a), 11 (c), 12 (none), 13 (all), 14 (b), 15 (c).

http://www.sltrib.com/2002/Dec/12312002/commenta/16016.asp

[Terwilliger]

51. Safire is praying for another attack

he knows Bush has absolutely ZERO without this perpetual fear and continuing war

[Dover]

57. Safire commits journalistic terrorism on a weekly basis

....

[megaplayboy]

86. Ted Rall predicted the opposite...

..because Dubya is the best recruiting and fundraising tool Osama's ever had...

[DEM FAN]

87. And It Will Be All Clinton's Fault..........Right

:-(