What does everybody think of what Dean said about Bin Laden?

[coloradodem2005]

As you may know Dean said something about Bin Laden being presumed innocent until proven guilty. I had been In Indiana w/ my grandma, who much to my chagrin is a republican. Hated FDR, JFK, Clinton etc. But Likes Bush just because he is a Republican. Don't get me wrong, I love my grandma and I will forgive her for this sin. Anyways, she gets MSNBC and likes Scarborough (ICK) and they were talking about that and saying that Dean said Osama may not be guilty, and she called Dean a "dumb son of a bitch". Now Grandma, I love you, but what about after 9/11 in front of the wrecked WTC when Bush said looks like I hit the trifecta. Because he had a recession, now a national emergency and a war? That sounds like the words of a dumb son of a bitch (meaning Bush).

On another note, I think that Osama and the Saudis are guilty as hell. But if Osama is captured, he should still stand trial under due process which means that you are innocent until proven guilty. Everybody knew that Timothy McVeigh was guilty but he still had to under go a trial according to due process. Scarborough also said that the Dems were finished. We have our problems, but I don't believe we are finished. I especially don't believe it because Scarborough says so.

[madfloridian]

1. That is not what he said, but it does not matter.

If your grandmother thinks Scarborough tells the truth, then she will not be reachable on this.

[truthspeaker]

2. arrest her and tell her she's guilty until proven innocent

and ask how she likes it.

She probably won't get the point though.

Alternatively, you could plant an eighth of weed in her house and call in an anonymous tip that she's a terrorist. She might get the point after a few years in Gitmo, but you'd never see her again so you wouldn't know for sure.

[coloradodem2005]

8. Hey buddy.

I am not going to do that to a member of my family. I do not like the fact that she is a republican who whatches Scarborough, but I will not punish a member of my family even if I vehemently disagree with their opinions.

[truthspeaker]

16. I wasn't serious

[demnan]

3. I am a Dean supporter

but one of my early hesitations about Dean was that he was too intelligent for many people to understand and that much of what he says would be taken out of context. This is an instance of taking something out of context so that uninformed people will get the wrong impression.

At this point I am hardening myself against all the (inevitable) attacks against Dean. They will not sway me. But I'm not going to get upset about it. It's all just political posturing by those with motives.

[w13rd0]

4. Your grandmother will never vote for a democrat...

...her opinion is irrelevant. As long as she continues to only listen to that which makes her feel safe and prevents her needing to do any critical thinking, she will vote for people that work against her interests and make this nation less safe. On what Dean said, how dare he admonish Americans to remember our Constitution and the principles of FREEDOM we supposedly are hated for. So I guess your missive demonstrates that FAUX NEWS is indeed reaching that portion of the population that not only CAN be fooled all of the time, but LIKES being fooled all of the time.

[Kira]

5. I think Dean is exactly right.

Have you read Michael Moore's book. "Dude where's my country" He talks about how Bin Laden is definitely a bad guy. And could be invovled, but talked about how skilled the pilots had to be to hit the pentagon. Much more so than the level someone would get to learning in a flight school. He asked if they might have been naval pilots from Saudi Arabia. If it had been the royal family itself or a faction that is upset with the King. We DO NOT have these answers. To say that it was just Bin Laden is ridiculous.
However, even though I did agree with Dean I think it was foolish to word it the way he did. The American people are not thinking clearly on this subject. It needs to be said delicately. I have to admit I have been wondering why Dean isn't thinking before he is saying these things.

[w13rd0]

9. I think he is...

...Dean knows that Bush's entire presidency is built on a mass grave of 3000 in New York. It's important to get the American people questioning the "fact" that Bush deserves some kind of credit for failure. The intial shock of what Dean says might upset someone, but he gets the dialogue moving, and that achieves results. That's what we need in the White House.

[Kira]

14. I hope you are right

I really do. I do not have a lot of faith in the American people to wake up from their zombie state. Did you see that "blonde" on Crossfire yesterday? She was spouting every Republican talking point lie and no one was calling her on them. I am afraid most people think that garbage is true. This idea about finding out who is complicit in 9/11 seems to be to much brain work for the ordinary American. It sickens me to feel that way. But I do.

[w13rd0]

18. But most...

...even Bushbots, are skeptical of the mass media, even if for all the wrong reasons (it's a liberal media, for instance). They are thus fertile for novel approaches to marketing in the "marketplace of ideas"...

[Bandit]

6. "On another note, I think that Osama and the Saudis are guilty as hell."

Why do you think this? What basis do you have for forming that opinion? Do you have some special knowlege or are you relying on what the Bush* Administration put out. No country other than England has seen any evidence what-so-ever tying Bin Laden to 9-11. No American that I am aware of has seen any such evidence so again I ask how you came by your opinion?

[Selwynn]

7. I think what Dean actually said is exactly right.

[Demobrat]

11. I do too.

Everybody gets a trial. Even if they're caught in the act. Everybody.

[Silverhair]

10. Dean phrased it badly. Here is what he should have said:

It isn't appropriate that I comment on that question. I am a candidate for the presidency. Later, after Osama is caught there will naturally be a trial during my presidency. I would not want some future defense attorney for Osama to say that I made a fair trial impossible by careless remarks made during a campaign. Naturally, for the crimes that he is accused of, if he is convicted, the full range of penalties should be available.

In essence that is what he was saying, but he bungled the phrasing by making it sound like there was doubt as to Osama's guilt.

[King Coal]

13. Republicans should not really talk about what dumb things

a candidate says. "Yet." "Yet." "Yet." "What's the difference?"

[DuctapeFatwa]

15. Or he could have called for thorough investigation and that the guilty

parties be brought to justice. :)

[Bandit]

20. I hope Dean and in fact all of our candidates read our forum

There is some extremely good advice that appears here often and yours is at the top of the list. :thumbsup:

[htuttle]

12. I think Osama deserves a trial

If Hermann Goering and Rudolph Hess deserved trials, so does Osama.

Would it be easier for people to accept giving bin Laden a trial (as if he'll be caught someday...) if he were European? Seriously, think about it. Is it easier for Americans to be in favor of 'summary execution' if the person is an Arab or an African? Sure seems like it.

[Upfront]

19. Dean Was Right

Sure got them talking about Dean didn't it. This cat is a litttle sharper then your average bear. lol

[many a good man]

17. Fair trial is a MUST

If we've got the goods on OBL lets lay it out for the world to see. If we have a strong case then we should be happy to demonstrate it in a court of law.

About Grandma: I think you should accept her as she is (which you've done) but try to point out to her that Bush* is not your average typical Republican. Her party has been taken over by its most extremist groups: fundies, neo-cons, police state shrink-the-beasters. The best you can do is convince her to stay home on election day instead of delivering her party to these wackos.

Republicans have to take THEIR party back so we can have an honest debate on the issues.

[dkf]

22. Fair trial is necessary to show MUSLIMS how bad OBL is and how fair we are

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1216/dailyUpdate.html?s=entt

Ewan McAskill, the diplomatic editor of the Guardian, argued recently that, in spite of protests by the US and Britain to contrary, bin Laden's jihad has actually been quite successful. In fact, he "appears to be winning," according to Mr. McAskill. He has achieved one, and possibly two, of the objectives that he set for himself in media interviews (The objectives were: the removal of US soldiers from Saudi soil; the overthrow of the Saudi government; the removal of Jews from Israel; and worldwide confrontation between the West and the Muslim world.)

US troops are now gone from Saudi Arabia. While the Saudi government has not fallen, it is has been weakened and, for the first time, the rule of the monarchy is being questioned inside and outside the country. Bin Laden's third goal will never be achieved, but it has helped him achieve his fourth goal, MacAskill argues – the world is increasingly polarized.

"Religious belief is coming back to the fore as a motivating force in international relations; in some cases it is distorted to cloak political purposes," according to the Foreign Office strategy document, UK International Priorities. "The question will arise most obviously in relations between Western democracies and some Islamic countries or groups."

Bin Laden's September 11 attacks are mainly to blame for this polarization. But the responses of George Bush have exacerbated this, with his two wars and the failure to tackle the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Two years after the occupation of Afghanistan, US control is patchy. Outside cities, travel is risky, and even within them, life can be dangerous, as the Kandahar bombing demonstrated. The Taliban have regrouped and are returning in strength.

[CreamyGoodness]

21. Dean was right, BUT . . .

Dean needs to learn to add ritualistic disclaimers to such statements, such as "of course, everyone knows that Osama bin Laden is a very bad guy," blah blah blah, BUT he should not be judged guilty until after he has had a fair and public trial, just like Saddam Hussein will receive." It's not that what Dean actually said was wrong, it's just that he comes off looking too wonkish and not concerned enough about bin Laden's threat to national security, which in turn feeds into the GOP/SCLM-created-sterotype of Dean as unqualified in matters of national security.