If things got so bad ...

[porkrind]

That you decided to emigrate to another country, which country would you choose? ;)

(I'm just putting on my tinfoil hat and considering my options for the future. If Bush wins another term and the country falls into hard-core fascism and war, would there be a better place to live?) :tinfoilhat:

I think I would like Australia, Switzerland, or someplace in Scandinavia.

[Q3JR4]

1. I think that I'm going to

Canada if he is elected again.

Then again Canada is pretty close to the U.S. Maybe THAT wouldn't be such a good idea.

:shrug:

[FDRrocks]

2. Canada first

Then over to France. Then whenever whimsy takes me. As far as I can trace, since my family arrived here, whenever that happened, We have never left the eastern hemisphere!

I intent to break that, and raise a family in Europe, later on in life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Sorry, but I still beleive that we will win in the end

and I choose to defend the vision.

Prepare for the worst, but plan for the best

[Minstrel Boy]

4. I'm in Canada, and I'm uncomfortable, too. Too close.

Those bastards have no respect for national borders.

I've fantasized about New Zealand.

[Brian_Expat]

5. You cannot just "up and leave"

Trust me. The immigration laws worldwide are very, very tough.

BTW, I'd stay in England. ;)

[truth2power]

11. That's what I was wondering.

Could someone who has some reliable information please address this issue? I would think it would be nearly impossible to get into Canada.

I have family in Canada, but they're not in any position to sponsor me or anything, so I guess my chances are slim to none. I came within a few months of being born there, but I guess close doesn't count. <sigh>

[no name no slogan]

19. Do you have any professional skills?

I know that they just recently lowered the immigration threshold in Canada for certain skilled workers.

Check out the Citizen and Immigration Canada website for more info. They have a lot of good stuff there, including a test that will give you a good idea if you qualify to immigrate as a skilled worker.

I believe that, on the test, you will get additional points for already having family in Canada, so even if you don't have an in-demand skill, you may have enough points to qualify.

The last time I took the test I scored a 75, which was right on the borderline. My wife and I have discussed living abroad for a while, as we both have done so, separately, in the past (me in the UK, her in Austria).

[foreigncorrespondent]

44. Canada has since...

...dropped their point system down from 75 to sixy something, for everyone.

[K8-EEE]

14. No, You Have To Plan It

My Spanish hairdresser has told me that there are a LOT of Americans living in Spain these days (and Brits too btw!)

You can't just "up and leave" and not very many people even want to; but if Shrubby gets re-elected and things get even scarier around here, I think it's good to at least consider what your alternatives are. My grandfather left a country that had been taken over by fascists (Spain) but sometimes I feel that is what is happening here which is really scary.

[Brian_Expat]

25. In any event, the doors will slam closed pretty quickly.

All it will take is 300,000 Americans leaving for Canada, Australia and NZ, and they'll have filled their immigration quotas for the year. And even if you plan now, you'll be up against huge numbers of competing people with quite good qualifications.

[K8-EEE]

29. Are You An Ex-Pat Living In England?

We are in kind of a different situation -- with animators, it is actually getting harder for an American to get a job HERE than abroad. I have friends working not only in Asia but Australia, Spain and Canada. So I would say it depends on what business you are in and what your qualifications are. Certainly he has had a lot of unsolicited offers from abroad -- including a company that has offices in Spain and the UK.

[The Zanti Regent]

6. Costa Rica?

because I am afraid that if the Chimp steals another election he will go after Canada and seize the Albertan tar sands!

[PaDUer]

7. IF the country falls into Hard-core fascism...

you know fascism is already here, or don't you?..
My, my, so many visits tonite.

[tom_paine]

37. Yes...many visits...many more as the Imperial Election approaches

My my my my my my myyyyy YES...

[kdmorris]

8. We've been looking at Canada

Then if, by some twist of fate, Canada falls into the same hands.. well, guess we'll have to cross that bridge when we get to it. The Netherlands or France maybe.

[glarius]

12. We in Canada could do nothing if Bush & Co. decided to invade

All we can hope for is that sanity and basic American decency will stop any type of takeover of our country by the Bushies...

[Holly]

24. True, we could do nothing if

Bush*& co decided to invade Canada, but invading and occupying are two totally different things ( as they are learning in Iraq.) Our large landmass, climate and terrain would make in impossible. It's a guarantee they'd be all alone in their coaliton....certainly couldn't strong-arm in the Brits or Aussie's this time. The Queen would not be amused. Imagine the world outrage at an invasion of Canada.

[Brian_Expat]

26. An invasion of Canada would be the end for the GOP

Such an operation would quickly collapse, and the Canadian resistance would be substantial during the "occupation." Americans in border states from Washington to Maine would also be outraged.

[Minstrel Boy]

28. However, I believe we do have a post 9/11 arrangement with the US

which, under circumstances I'm not familiar with, would allow troops to cross into each other's territory. (The bilateral nature of the agreement is laughable.)

This is what worries me: occupation by stealth. It wouldn't be an invasion, so much as a "friendly" incursion for the stated reason of "mutual security interests." And there are some here - we have our own neocons - who would welcome it.

We remain, after all, the US's leading foreign source of oil and natural gas. And there's all our fresh water, which we guard jealously and refuse to bulk export, which America will soon thirst for.

[webtrainer]

50. Canada's been invaded before . . .

shortly after the American Civil War, an Irish-American group called the Fenians decided that the best way to get at the hated British was to invade Canada.

http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/fenianscan.html

My great-great grandfather, Irish rebel and a Canadian founding father, D'Arcy McGee was (subject to controversy) later assasinated by a Fenian after he remarked that, in today's vernacular, "That was pretty stupid, them thinking that the Canadians would just welcome the invaders."

[Minstrel Boy]

51. Wow - your great-great grandfather was D'Arcy McGee?

I just mentioned him in another thread here a few days ago.

Congratulations on being a Great-Great Granchild of Confederation!

[Minstrel Boy]

53. And of course, there was that 1812 thingy...

My favourite Ur-Canadian song is about the War of 1812, and Laura Secord's famous warning. Gives me goosebumps, it does. By the group Tanglefoot.

SECORD'S WARNING

Come all you brave young soldier lads
With your strong and manly bearing
I'll tell you a tale of a woman bold and her deed of honest daring
Laura Secord was American-born in the state of Massachusets
But she made her home in Canada and proved so faithful to us

Chorus
There's American guns and 500 men
So the warning must be given
And Laura Ingersoll Secord was the stalwart heart
Who braved the heat and the flies and the swamp
To warn Colonel Fitzgibbon

There's soldiers pounding at the door
And they come from across the border
American officers march inside
It's food and drink they've ordered
In comfort they have dined and drunk
Their own success they've toasted
But they pay no heed to the woman who hears their plan so idly boasted

Chorus

Oh, James I've overheard it all
A surprise attack they're making
Fitzgibbon they intend to smash
His men for prisoners taking
And James a warning never you'll take with your wounded knee and shoulder
I myself must carry it past the sentries and the soldiers

Chorus

It's an all-day tramp to the British camp
By way of Shipman's Corners
There're snakes and flies and sweat in her eyes
There is no respite for her
She's lost her shoes in the muck of the bog
Her feet are torn and blistered
But there's many a soldier lad to be spared if the message be delivered

Chorus

So all you Yankee soldier lads who dare to cross our border
Thinking to save us from ourselves
Usurping British order
There's women and men Canadians all
Of every rank and station
To stand on guard and keep us free
From Yankee domination!

[kdmorris]

36. EEEKK

I meant more like taking over the government, in much the same way they did here. I cannot see any scenario that the world would allow Bush and Co. to militarily invade Canada. Unless, like Minstral Boy said, it was something stealthy (For the protection of Canada, etc.) Even then, I can't see the world letting that happen if Canada put up a fight about it.

Then again, maybe I'm hopelessly naive. :shrug:

[K8-EEE]

9. I've Thought About This A LOT!!!

In my husband's biz (animation) it is getting so you have to move to another country, even to work for an American animation company. YES THAT'S HOW WONDERFUL THIS "RECOVERY" IS FOR WORKING PEOPLE!

Several friends have moved to Seoul, Tai-Pai or Tokyo -- but I just can't see doing that, it's such a different culture.

He has had some consulting work in Barcelona and that would be my first choice. I have been to Spain and I love it. Regardless of the fact that the loser PM Aznar went along with GWB -- they are 90% opposed to the war and GWB there so that tells you something right there. Plus my grandfather came here from Spain so, I could get a Visa there and then work in any EU country. But I love Madrid, Barcelona and Seville. I do speak Spanish but the my husband and kids don't so that is a sticky point.

And, Canada -- lots of film work there and it does seem so clean and nice there, from the limited travels I've had. We took the train from Toronto to Quebec once -- beautiful and friendly country up North!

[glarius]

15. Animation is big here in Canada...Much of the animation inovations you see

in movies were first done here....

[K8-EEE]

21. That's True, In Fact...

my husband and many of his friends here in L.A. are graduates of Sheridan Art College in Oakville Ontario -- at the time (70s)they had the only major in Animation Art in No. America.

He has done some work for the Canadian Film Board...I see a lot of their stuff cuz it gets submitted for Oscar consideration. Artsy bunch up there in Canada!

[emanymton]

10. When the Democrats Win ...

the revolution will only be beginning.

Those in power, GOP and the Democrat establishment, will not roll over easily. They are entrenched in and around Washington D.C. They know where the levers of power are and how to use them.

When the Democratic Nominee (DN) wins, the battles will only be the beginning. Expect the fight to take back the country to be long and dangerous.

Stay optimistic but keep your passport up to date. Germany is a good place to go.

Is it too late to secede?

[populistmom]

13. I'd pick

Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, or Holland.

[AlienGirl]

16. Assuming they'll let you in, of course...

Last I heard, the immigration requirements were pretty strict for those countries. Someone like me (didn't finish college, no valuable job skills) would never get in; and I imagine if refugees start flooding out of the US, borders worldwise will slam shut.

Tucker

[populistmom]

58. I'll be a nurse in two years

If they don't draft me first, I'll have many options world-wide.

[maggrwaggr]

27. I looked into New Zealand. They got a BIG Ozone-Hole problem

to the point where they close schools and the like on days when it's bad.

Also, NZ ain't real keen on letting people immigrate there.

[K8-EEE]

30. True About NZ

I have a friend who visited there and then relocated and was miserable -- she didn't feel welcome at all, she felt a lot of resentment.

This was in Auckland though....I think I have read about a family moving to the sticks with the sheep and liking it! NOT ME THOUGH..

[glarius]

17. I hope all you wonderful Americans will stay there & fight the good fight

We, in the rest of the world need you to continue the fight to bring your country back to the democracy it used to be...We're counting on you!

[K8-EEE]

23. I Hope So Too!

I'm a native Californian and never dreamed I would even consider living anywhere else. I love it here but I see the job situation and political situation here getting bad. A lot of people here run down the immigrants who come here, but really, if things get bad enough where you are you have to leave.

I know a lot of people who moved to Mexico, especially to retire; a middle class income in the States makes you rich there, but I would feel like I was part of the exploitation of the Mexicans. I see the conservatives as liking that system; elites and servants, the exploited and exploiters. We need to protect our middle class here, and not turn into a banana republic!

[kdmorris]

39. Well, that is Plan A

I've been fighting the good fight for years now, though. I'm not ready to give up yet, but it would be stupid of us not to have a Plan B. We have 3 daughters, who we look at and think about their future. If it becomes true that the only way we can get our country back is by outright revolution, I want them to be someplace safer.

Our oldest daughter is 16 now, and she's been looking at the options of going to college in Canada, but it seems like it would actually be easier for us to emigrate as a family, rather than sending our children one at a time as they come of age.

[Unforgiven]

60. OK

Do you want to risk being thrown in jail, maimed or killed without any positive outcome? Do you think after being convicted of a crime here that it would be any easier to emigrate to another country?
I don't see a whole lot of help outside this realm we call DU. So tell me how this plan of yours works.

[Coldgothicwoman]

18. Japan. <n/t>

[Melsky]

20. We are moving to Canada

Not just because of the political situation in the US. We also really like Canada.

My husband also couldn't get a job anywhere in California - sent out stacks of resumes, etc. But he applied for one job in Toronto and got it.

We will be a lot closer to his family in upstate NY also. Bonus for him, not great for me!

[democratreformed]

22. My sister is planning on going

to El Salvador. She has been studying different areas for a few years. Some of her reasons for choosing that country are kind "out there" for me.

As far as I am concerned, if I decide to leave, I want to go FAR. I think it would still be several years before I could actually make that decision and convince the rest of my family.

[cryofan]

31. The possibilities

I have been thinking about this for a couple years. My career is a bit stalled, and I am tired of working anyway. But I have 20 years to go until SS & Medicare. I am currently self employed doing contract work occassionally.

Luckily, I am eligible for VA medical care from my cold war navy service. However, I suspect that the neoliberals in both Democrat and GOP will cut that off once more. If that happens, I will probably move overseas. I have done a lot of research and pretty much know all the options. I have come to the conclusion that we Americans are getting a raw deal compared to citizens of the other western industrial countries.

I can get into Canada right away as a citizen, as my mother was canadian. Also, I can get irish citizenship fairly quickly, as my grandmother was born there. Canada is easy to get into, compared to other western industrial countries. Anyone here can probably get in. The welfare state there is pretty good--tax funded healthcare, etc. The weather sucks, but Canada will probably be pretty rich in 10 years, with the tar sands, etc.

Australia is pretty good. The voters are organized much better there than the USA. A friend is planning to move there after visiting. He told me that people do not work there. Well, they do, but it is much easier to go without a job there b/c of welfare and universal tax funded healthcare. You can get in there if you are educated and less than 45.

But the really good countries are in Europe. The voters there are quite well organized and they squeeze the money people till it hurts. Voter participation rates are 70-90% in some of those countries. The welfare state is great in many of them. But getting in is very hard. And you do not get the plush welfare state benefits unless you are a citizen, in most countries. You can get into most of them only 2 ways: marriage and work permit.

The best countries for welfare state and well-behaved govt are the Scandanavian countries, and Belgium and Netherlands. Real hard to get into there....Getting citizenship takes a long while in most of them. In some of them (UK, Italy) you can get residency and eventual citizenship via grandparent ancestry.

There is another option if you have savings: you can move to Latin America and live fairly well for $300 a month or so in some countries, like Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, and even parts of Mexico. But you need to speak Spanish, and there are dangers and risks.

[K8-EEE]

32. Reverse Immigration

I hear Italy is very difficult right now because so many Argentines (fleeing the results of their wacky RW government) are of Italian descent and flooding there legally and illegally.

The grandparent thing -- if you have a grandparent from an EU country you can apply for papers there that would allow you to work in any EU country -- this is what I have been told although I am just starting that reasearch right now. There are several websites with info of course, you have to check everything out really carefully because there is a lot of false info on the web as well.

Just look at the situation the Argentines are in now -- flooding back to Italy! Certainly the ones who saw the collapse coming and had the Plan B in place were happy they got a jump on it -- although my friend just moved from L.A. to Buenos Aires and loves how far the dollar goes there!

[SilasSoule]

33. San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato, Mexico

n/t

[101 Proof]

34. Mexico...

considering I've had three years of Spanish classes. :) Tijuana, anyone? :)

[radwriter0555]

40. Tijuana is a cesspool of american vices... Now the REAL mexico is just

marvelous... but the US/Mexico bordertowns suck and have no bearing whatsoever on what the real Mexico is like.

[Misterpilot]

52. Have you ever been fleeced by Mexican Officials?

I flew a charter down there once to pick up a kid that broke a leg, we declared minimum fuel to get priority handling (we were down to 30 minutes due to bad headwinds), and once we landed the Mexican FAA was there. It cost me $600 US to get this guy to let us leave.

He came right out and said that it would take all my cash and that of my copilot to get us out of there or we would be held for days going through their administrative law system.

The corruption of their politicians and officials I think is the biggest reason they are still a third world country.

[murielm99]

35. I am going to stay here and fight.

I will send my son away, when the draft comes. But, I think this country is still worth fighting for.

There are many ways to fight. They don't all have to be violent, or involve the use of guns, either.

[Imajika]

38. All these emigrating to another country posts..

...are just plain silly.

How do you know the country you pick won't elect a rightwing government? Then you would have to pack up and run away again.

Australia elected Howard, and look likely to do so again.

No government lasts forever. Times change. Peoples attitudes change. Where once a given population might vote left of center, circumstances will eventually drive them to vote in a different direction.

Imajika

[cryofan]

49. Umm...The RW pols of those countries are LEFT of our Democrats

Yes! This is an acknowledged fact. Most everyone who has studied comparative politics knows this. The politicians and govts of the Euro, CA, and Oz that are considered RightWing, are actually ideologically to the LEFT of out LEFTWING politicians (i.e., the Democrats)

[Unforgiven]

61. Oh Really!

Are they really. Well good I certainly hope that those who have concerns are woefully wrong about what is happening here in this country and are trying to plan ahead in their lives in case of the worst. I'm so glad that you don't have to share our concerns or worries.

[gator_in_Ontario]

41. Canada

I'm already working on it. It is really hard, yes. But being married to a Canadian can't hurt. For her to immigrate to the US would be much harder right now.

From a long proud line of yellow dog Democrats

[zanana]

42. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

OK--thanks alot, guys. I'll be stuck here in New Hampshire, being harassed and harangued, and you'll be in Canada, fishing and going to the sled-dog races. They'll probably throw me in prison, but will that bother you? N-O-O-O-O-O-O. You'll be too busy changing your names to Pierre and Giselle and memorizing phrases like "Je ne parle pas l'Anglais". Well, guess what? I'll be standing at the border with a stick and I'll beat you all back. I mean it. You're not going. There.

[shawn703]

43. I think it should be the other way around

If Bush wins another term, the worst thing that could happen is for the liberals to leave. Without us to balance the politics out in this country, I'm afraid the USA would completely go the way of fascism. (Imagine how WWII would have turned out if Germany developed nukes first.)

I propose that all our liberal friends from other countries come here, get their citizenship, and make registering to vote their top priority! =)

[mrgorth]

45. In order

Canada
Norway
Ireland

[manic]

46. If America falls into fascism

nowhere will be safe.

[Individualist]

48. Fascism is already here

as has been noted by another DUer. I'm here and will continue to stay because I want my country back. I'll continue debunking every reich wing lie that comes my way and do all I can to restore my country as it was under FDR, JFK, Clinton, etc.

[Unforgiven]

62. True,but

I'm not convinced this is the place to make "the last stand" there are far to many r/w's and just plain ignorant people that will follow the bidding of the media. You gonna fight all that here? are we to assume that we just wake up tomorrow and this becomes clear to these jackasses and we all join hands, sing songs and take our country back?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. If there's even a hint of the kind of shooting war

so fervently romanticized by some of the gun--uh--"enthusiasts" answering Q's current post, I'm on the next plane to Japan.

I will not stay here to experience Sarajevo-like conditions. I'm old enough to realize that that's not "romantic."

[bobthedrummer]

54. I've got ancestors that were on The Mayflower, I will die right here.

Everyday is an opportunity to speak truth to power and share the truth with the people in your neighborhood, even if you are homeless or in lock-up.

We are in the process of taking back our country and that means asserting the Rights we have, not giving them up to BFEE or leaving for a sunnier climate.

I am an American citizen and have never considered myself anything but an American, so I am staying come what may. These neo-conservative traitors will do anything to advance their global agenda but now that is unraveling, they went a bridge too far in their arrogance.

The rallying point is our Constitution, which is under attack by the extreme RW crooks in power and the endemic corruption of realpolitik.

Defend it. There is no safe place anywhere else, and it is sad to participate in a thread like this one in America today-quit being ruled by fear and the fearmongers of BFEE--we are taking our country back from them.

[Holly]

56. Now, this is more like it

and the type of spirit that I would expect from American's. Well said, bobthedrummer They have " gone a bridge to far"......With this type of attitude and patriotism ....you will take your country back.

[drdigi420]

55. im thinking barbados

or somewhere else tropical

sorry, canada is just too cold for me

[dawn]

57. France? If only their immigration laws weren't so tough.

Other than that, perhaps Canada.

Or Thailand. I could see myself living in a bungalow on a Thai island, teaching English to the local villagers. I know that in reality it would be nothing like that, but I can still dream.

[Karenina]

59. I'm amazed at the naivete

exhibited here. "IF things get so bad" do you think you'll be able to simply cue up Grace's "Leaving On a Jet Plane" while you pack? Those with foresight and determination are not foolish enough to "wait and see." Their applications are already in. Who has a realistic idea of what it takes to assimilate into another culture? DO YOU THINK FOR A MOMENT YOU'LL BE ABLE TO GET OUT??? Excuse me, I have to go sign off for awhile and cry.

[Unforgiven]

63. And this Post

Chills me to the bone, because this issue has bothered me since the 2000 sElection. Did we all wait to long?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. I already have quite a good idea what it would take to move to Japan

since I've done it before, and I have lots of friends and professional contacts there.

But others who are thinking of possibly leaving should start researching immigration requirements now.

[Unforgiven]

64. Foaming

And now that I completed foaming at the mouth for the moment, here are my selections:

New Zealand
Australia
Costa Rica

Will accept other countries if like minded people want me around to join them there. But no Canada for me.

[Nikia]

65. We'll stay as of now. If we have kids by then...

If we could legally leave by plane or ship, we'd go to Belieze. They speak English. It is inexpensive to live there, but has a good enough standard of living. It also is diverse.
Practically, we'd sneak into Canada if they closed the borders. I even had a dream about this.
The sad thing is if things are this bad, we won't be able to come back until things are better.

[mmonk]

66. I gotta go where it's

warm! Actually, I have no idea.

[Karenina]

68. Check it out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=981103