Snipers GIve US Edge In Iraq

[RUexperienced]

NYTimes (via Star Telegram)

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/7618244.htm

Posted on Fri, Jan. 02, 2004

Snipers give U.S. edge in Iraq fighting
By Eric Schmitt
The New York Times


SAMARRA, Iraq - The intimate horror of the guerrilla war in Iraq seems most vivid through the sights of a sniper's rifle. "I shot one guy in the head, and his head exploded," said Sgt. Randy Davis, one of about 40 snipers in the Army's new 3,600-

soldier Stryker Brigade, from Fort Lewis, Wash. "Usually, though, you just see a dust cloud pop up off their clothes and see a little blood splatter come out the front."


Working in teams of two or three, Army snipers in Iraq cloak themselves in the shadows of empty city buildings or burrow into desert sands with camouflage suits, waiting to fell guerrilla gunmen and their leaders with a single shot from as far as half a mile away.

"You don't think about it," said Wilson, 24, of Muncie, Ind., speaking at an austere base camp near Samarra after a late-afternoon mission. "You just think about the lives of the guys to your left and right." Davis nodded in agreement: "As soon as they picked up a weapon and tried to engage U.S. soldiers, they forfeited all their rights to life, is how I look at it."

"We don't have civilian casualties," Davis said of how he avoided the schoolchildren. "Everything you hit, you know exactly what it is. You know where every round is going."

--------------------

I wish our guys the best.

[spanone]

1. "His head exploded" I'm proud to be an american.......geez

[Superfly]

2. War is hell, buy a helmet

What'd you expect it to do, spin around like a Bugs Bunny cartoon?

[IranianDemocrat]

6. LOL

Good one.

[RUexperienced]

4. What would you do?

Send some positive energy his way and hope he doesn't come back and kill your friends?

[Superfly]

3. Some of my very good friends are snipers...

some of the most calm, level-headed people you will ever meet. But, then again, I suppose you have to be. Shooting at 1/2 mile distances takes calm nerves.

[RUexperienced]

5. Very cool nerves indeed.

The article says they even use barometers to judge the humidity, which can cause the round to drop.

[bedtimeforbonzo]

7. Yay for US!

We have the toughest death squads!

[Superfly]

8. Nice hyperbole...

It does take some serious skill to be a military marksman. Serious skill and serious courage.

[DrWeird]

10. How is sniping courageous?

Seems about as courageous as stabbing somebody in the back.

[Superfly]

12. You try sneaking around a country

that doesn't like you and all you have is your buddy and a bolt-action rifle.

[DrWeird]

14. So then the DC sniper was courageous?

Because that's what he was doing.

[Superfly]

19. He was not a sniper.

A sniper is a trained military marksman, eliminating military targets of opportunity on a battlefield. The fuck-o in DC was a murdering bastard praying on innocent civilians.

[DrWeird]

24. Hmm, I asked you what was courageuous about sniping.

You replied sneaking around a country shooting people from a great distance.

Sounds like the basic definition of what a sniper is. And what the DC guys were doing.

[Superfly]

27. And I told you the guy in DC was not a sniper

He was a murderer engaging civilian innocents.

[wtmusic]

29. As opposed to our soldiers

who are murderers engaging civilian innocents. Got it!

[takebackthewh]

81. Well maybe

some of them are civilian innocents. But don't you think some of them are bad guys too?

[DrWeird]

32. Sniper-

1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

Looks like they were snipers. The one was even a trained military shooter.

[Superfly]

35. Alright, you just keep saying that

and I will say good day.

[DrWeird]

37. Hey, don't blame me.

That's from the dictionary.


I'd still like to know by what moral code the shooting of unsuspecting people from hundreds of yards away while concealed is an act of bravery.

[Superfly]

40. Because when that "unsuspecting person"

puts on the uniform of your enemy and picks up a weapon to engage your fellow soldiers, your job, sniper or line infantry soldier, is to kill that person. And that, my friend, takes an act of bravery.

[DrWeird]

44. So you're saying Iraqi snipers are brave too.

Is that what you're saying?

And the rest of the courageuos Iraqi resistance?

[Superfly]

45. Well, yes. Brave, but stupid.

nt

[wtmusic]

43. Superfly said, 'Good day'

which is DUspeak for 'I just ran out of argument' :eyes:

[Superfly]

47. No, just tired

of dealing with people like you.

[wtmusic]

50. Wah Wah. Get used to it.

We're not going away.

:nopity:

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RUexperienced]

We will see...

The second week of November.

[CatWoman]

53. I have to agree

your arguments make little sense.

[Superfly]

55. Care to expand on that earthshaking revelation?

NT

[RUexperienced]

60. He says he is not going away

People like him usually burn out quickly.

There is a good chance that he will have dropped out of politics by then.

[CatWoman]

61. Just watching you bob, weave and tap dance

when faced with logic.

:shrug:

[RUexperienced]

63. So you think snipers are cowards?

[CatWoman]

65. I think those in Iraq are

[RUexperienced]

67. Define coward

[CatWoman]

69. www.m-w.com

[RUexperienced]

73. Not much of a definition and I am still waiting to see

how many gays you let into the military in your 10 years.

[ChemEng]

90. I think you are ignorant

of what snipers can really face. See my post #88 and then tell me they are cowards. And I'd like to hear you call them cowards to their widow's face.

[Superfly]

64. What logic...

you mean that "kum-bah-yah, the world can be a peaceful place if everybody laid down their arms and held hands" kind of logic?

Or you mean that "the DC murderer is a sniper for gunning down defensless people" logic?

:shrug: & :puke:

[RUexperienced]

62. Ooops... My bad

Responded to the wrong post.

<<<We're not going away.>>>

[Must_B_Free]

84. yeah, the old "people like you" argument

why don't "you people" get it? huh?

[RUexperienced]

72. If you are lucky enough to avoid capture while walking in enemy

territory towards your position, you still need luck (and courage) to leave the area alive after you just announced to the world where you are by shooting one of theirs.

Yes, courage indeed.

[Must_B_Free]

83. OUch!

sometime it's easier to take your licks and walk away, huh?

[jmowreader]

51. Not "targets of opportunity" but "named targets"

These guys are trained to go out and shoot one specific guy--commanders, sentries, forward observers, that sort of thing. Targets of opportunity are the ones that just pop up around you.

[RUexperienced]

22. It takes courage for any soldier to walk into battle

especially when you only have one person with you, no tank to hide behind and no air cover.

I don't understand how you think these guys are cowards.

[Must_B_Free]

82. ouch - you like pulling the wings off of superflies?

you're being brutal. :)

[IrateCitizen]

20. I thought that the sniper and spotter both carried 9mm's as well

I thought they only pulled out their sniper rifles when they were set up for a kill, and that the rest of the time they took great pains to keep it protected.

Not that it REALLY makes that much of a difference anyway. :shrug: If they're caught, they're screwed either way.

[wtmusic]

23. All the courageous soldiers have laid down their weapons

and refused to fight in this illegal atrocity.

[Superfly]

30. Kum-bah-yah, my friends, kum-bah-yah

:puke:

[wtmusic]

36. Oh goody, a REAL patriot

don't see too many of you guys around here...

Well, enjoy the war. Just keep in mind one thing: your USA invaded a sovereign nation illegally without provocation. That makes every one of those people defenders of their own country. I guess that means when North Korea attacks the US, you're just gonna roll over.

Like I said, a REAL patriot.

[Must_B_Free]

86. It must take alot of courage to avoid peaceful solutions

I admire your bravery, to go out and support what is so obviously wrong.

[RUexperienced]

13. Anyone who goes into enemy territory

with only his rifle and ONE buddy, is courageous. How can you say he is not?

[DrWeird]

18. I'll say that anybody who went to fight an unjust war based on lies..

is an out and out coward.

[RUexperienced]

25. All of our sodiers are cowards? Even Dean won't say that

[DrWeird]

28. Not all of them. Just the ones fighting in Iraq.

And the bigotted ones who won't let in homosexuals because they are afraid of taking showers with them.

[RUexperienced]

34. There is not a soldier alive who could let the gays in

the military. It was Congress who passed Don't Ask, Don't Tell and President Clinton who signed it.

Stick to the subject before you really embarass yourself.

[DrWeird]

39. It's the militaries policy.

And a bigotted and cowardly one at that.

[Superfly]

42. No, the military's policy is "don't ask, don't tell"

and there are gays in the military, as evidenced by the THREE flag officers who just came out last month.

[DrWeird]

48. If you come out you get discharged.

The military has more interest in protecting their country clubesque bigotry then they do protecting the country. As evidenced by the discharging of gay arabic translators.

[Superfly]

52. Blame Clinton for that policy...

when he had the chance to provide access to the military for all gays, he rolled and took the safe route.

[CatWoman]

59. I take exception to that comment

during my 10 plus years in the military, I had several very good friends who were gay.

Sexual orientation doesn't exclude competence.

[RUexperienced]

66. In your ten years in the military

did you have the power to let gays serve in the military?



I didn't think so.

So I will repeat myself, "There is not a soldier alive who could let gays serve in the military."

If there was a way, I imagine General Clark would have done it.

[jmowreader]

56. Oh Jesus. Soldiers don't make policy.

..

[stopthegop]

79. I suspect you don't care..

but your hatred appears to be leading you to say things that can only be described as stupid...and irrational...but that is of course your right

[takebackthewh]

85. Aw man

This is just the kind of crap that kills the Democrats at election time. The Repukes paint us as military-haters, and we play right into their hands. Yeah, so the war was a lie and a joke. But can you think a little bit about tempering your statements so that we can actually persuade a few of the undecideds to vote for us?

Just a thought. :shrug:

[ChemEng]

88. I'd pay good money to hear you say that ...

to one of those "cowards" in Iraq. It's jerks like you who give democrats a bad name. I'll bet you would spit on them if you had a chance.

[wtmusic]

15. Ha! Yes, courage from a half mile away

good one :-)

[Superfly]

21. Half a mile away

behind enemy lines most of the time...

[wtmusic]

74. Kinda like those courageous sailors

who push a button to fire cruise missiles...

truly...THE RIGHT STUFF *play marine hymn*

:puke:

[Superfly]

75. You're damned right.

Every single one of those men and women serving are courageous. Definitely more courageous than some of this thread's present company.

[wtmusic]

77. Well as an authority on courage

I guess you've pressed a few buttons in your time, huh? :puke:

[takebackthewh]

87. I know

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be there.

[ChemEng]

89. Snipers aren't always "half a mile away." Ask the two soldiers (snipers)

who won the medal of honor in Mogadishu. Oh, I forgot, you can't, because they DIED fighting so that their buddies could live. They volunteered to go in to a dangerous situation, and kept fighting even when they knew it was hopeless. President Clinton gave the medals to their widows.

Still think snipers lack courage?

I don't think I would ever question any soldier's courage in a war zone myself.

[Superfly]

9. Oh, one more thing...

Snipers don't operate in squads, which are typically 9 soldiers. Snipers operate in teams of 2, one shooter and one spotter.

[IrateCitizen]

11. Nobody should be subject to this kind of long-term damage...

I wouldn't bear any ill will against these guys, because they are only doing the job for which they have trained. But at the same time, serving as a sniper is to open yourself up for some SERIOUS psychological trauma down the line.

Why? Because killing another human being is a completely unnatural act. Our psyche is designed to reject it, and that is why so many people who have had to kill in combat suffer deep psychological trauma for many years.

And the more "personal" the manner of killing, the more the likelihood of serious trauma.

Take a read of the book On Killing by LTC (ret.) Dave Grossman, a former US Army paratrooper and West Point psychology professor. He has since retirement dedicated his professional life to the study of the effects of killing on the human psyche. Grossman estimates that there is only something like 1% of the population that is sufficiently "different" as to not be affected adversely by killing another human being.

I worked for a period of time with a guy who was a sniper in Vietnam. He was essentially a functional alcoholic, and it was painfully apparent that his experiences had pretty much screwed him up to varying degrees for the rest of his life. I would hope and pray that these soldiers are able to get the help they need when they start to have trouble reconciling what they have done at some point in the future, because it is CERTAIN to happen.

[RUexperienced]

16. Makes me even more glad that we have guys like this

willing to risk everything for something good.

[IrateCitizen]

31. Risk everything for something good???

If you're talking in the sense of trying to perform one act to save the lives of others in a complete fucking mess, you're right. But if you're talking in terms of the greater conquest of Iraq and all that, then I'm afraid I would greatly disagree.

Anytime that people are put into a situation in which it becomes necessary for them to give up the most basic notions of their humanity -- as many of these guys are now doing -- it is never a cause for celebration. To treat it as such is simply macabre.

[Superfly]

17. Grossman is a freak!

he spoke to my ROTC class eons ago. He came into the class dressed in his full battle-rattle, painted like a Michelangelo, holding a bayonet and pretty much screamed the entire "seminar", if that's what you can call it. I have forgotten, since, what the topic was, I only remember this crazy mo-fo with an Arkansas toothpick yelling at a bunch of cadets.

[IrateCitizen]

26. Oh, you're right about that -- I saw him speak too

He was the guest speaker at my EOBC dining out. One of the other LT's in my class knew him from Arkansas State University. His "speech" was pretty much the same canned speech to us, except it was in dress blues rather than BDU's and face paint.

But in any event, the book is an excellent read, and filled with a lot of research to back up many of his hypotheses. Being in the army you should know the seriousness with which they now approach the whole idea of "battle fatigue".

[Superfly]

33. You know, the funny thing about battle fatigue

is, it has only recently been diagnosed as a serious medical condition.

So, you're and Engineer puke, eh? I'm a redleg and my last assigment was as the Engineer School ops officer (on an officer exchange). Fort Leonard Wood sucks...

[Larry Gude]

41. Do something progressive...

...(anyone who actually cares to learn a bit about 'snipers' and what they do and go through)

'Jarhead'

Anthony Swofford

Was a USMC sniper in the first Gulf War.

He now teaches.

Tough read. Quick but tough.

[IrateCitizen]

46. Yes, but it IS quite serious

Grossman focuses a lot on the difference between WWII vets and Vietnam Vets -- and how the different ways in which they returned from a combat zone affected how they were able to deal with what they had seen/done.

I hope that your friends who are snipers aren't put into a situation where they actually have to deal with the trauma that goes along with killing others in such a personal way. If they do, they need to get the counselling and care they will so desperately need in the future.

[Superfly]

49. My first assignment

was in the 3rd BCT 2ID up in Ft Lewis, where these snipers are from. They undergo an intense psychological screening to weed out those that would break later on. I'm sure the process is not infallable, but shit, even line infantry soldiers who never get to pull the trigger come back screwed up.

[Don Claybrook]

57. Interesting choice of words

'get to' pull the trigger

instead of

'have to' pull the trigger


That's all.

[Superfly]

58. Infantry trains

every day for the chance to "get to" pull the trigger.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. Yes. And, no questions asked. Particularly "why".

I spent 4 years in the marines. The first thing they do is to try and overcome your natural inclination to humanity. People become "the enemy", "communists", "gooks", "slopes", etc. Now it's "ragheads", "camel jockeys", etc. Not people. Not human beings.
The most dehumanizing of all, "targets".

It works on some, perhaps most, but some of us resisted looking on our fellow human beings as anything other than as human beings.

I imagine that the assholes that rammed the planes into the towers didn't envision they were doing anything other than destroying "unbelievers" or "targets".

Sad that there are those that still believe that war is "just" or "noble".

[wtmusic]

76. Good to hear it from a vet

thanks :-)

[Character Assassin]

68. You're leaving out some very important points

I wouldn't bear any ill will against these guys, because they are only doing the job for which they have trained. But at the same time, serving as a sniper is to open yourself up for some SERIOUS psychological trauma down the line.

Quite frankly, so what? So will serving as an EMT, firefighter, police, and combat soldier of any nature.

Why? Because killing another human being is a completely unnatural act.

The entirety of human history suggests otherwise.

And the more "personal" the manner of killing, the more the likelihood of serious trauma.

If that were the case, then CI troops would certainly suffer more severely than snipers.

I worked for a period of time with a guy who was a sniper in Vietnam. He was essentially a functional alcoholic, and it was painfully apparent that his experiences had pretty much screwed him up to varying degrees for the rest of his life. I would hope and pray that these soldiers are able to get the help they need when they start to have trouble reconciling what they have done at some point in the future, because it is CERTAIN to happen.

One of my best friends was a Ranger sniper in Panama, and he is now a firefighter with zero negative effects.

I think it is a mistake, speaking from personal experience, to maintain that this would be in all, or even the majority of cases, a lasting effect.

One deals with it, and then moves on, like with all other traumatic experiences.

[IrateCitizen]

70. If you'll note, CA, I was NOT speaking from just personal experience

I cited you a source, the book On Killing by LTC (ret) Dave Grossman, a former Army paratrooper and West Point psychology professor.

I was simply using my personal experience as a correlating example. I would expect someone of your intellect to discern the difference. ;-)

[Character Assassin]

78. No, I understand. Perhaps I phrased it poorly.

One would imagine, if what this professor were positing were true, the US never would have survived the massive, society-wide expression of psychosis that would have come from the hundreds of thousands of US soldiers from WWII attempting to integrate back into society and going postal.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Cool!! Let's praise killers for corporations.

The poor sad sack actually thinks he's doing something noble instead of guaranteeing the profit margin for the rich guys who sent him there.

[spanone]

80. Edge??? We have 130,000 troops over there

I would call that an edge. Plus all the air and ground power of the worlds only superpower. Plus the threat of Nuclear annhialation. On and On and On. I feel sorry for the snipers. They see their prey up close and personal. A terrible cross to bear.