What is good about the death penalty?

[CalebHayes]

Death Penalty Facts

Deterrence

It has never been shown that the death penalty deters violent crimes more effectively than other punishments.
A survey by the UN on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates concluded, "Research has failed to provide scientific proof that executions have a greater deterrent effect than life imprisonment and such proof is unlikely to be forthcoming. The evidence as a whole still
gives no positive support to the deterrent hypothesis..."
Recent crime figures from countries which have abolished the death penalty do not show that abolishment had any harmful effects.

Race

83% of capital cases involve white victims, even though only 50% of murder victims are white.
It is much more likely for someone to receive the death penalty when the victim is white, than when the person is not.

Innocence

Since 1973, over 80 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence.
Researchers Radelet & Bedau found 23 cases since 1900 where innocent people were executed.
Retiring Florida Supreme Court Justice Gerald Kogan said he had "grave doubts" about the guilt of some of the people executed in Florida: "There are several cases where I had grave doubts as to the guilt of a particular person." . Kogan was a former homicide detective and prosecutor before eventually rising to Chief Justice.
The number of innocent defendants released from death row has been steadily increasing over recent years. Between 1973 and October, 1993, there was an average of 2.5 innocent defendants released. Since then, the average has increased to 4.6 released per year.
According to a 1987 study, three hundred and fifty people convicted of capital crimes in the United States between 1900 and 1985 were innocent of the crimes charged. Some prisoners escaped execution by minutes, but 23 were actually executed.

Costs

One of the most comprehensive studies on the death penalty in the country found the death penalty to cost North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life.
On a national basis, this translates to an extra cost of over $1 billion dollars since 1976.
In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, which is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell with the highest level of security for forty years.
A 1998 report from the Nebraska Judiciary Committee states that any savings from executing an inmate are outweighed by the financial legal costs. The report concluded that the current death penalty law does not serve the best interest of Nebraskans.
The Judicial Conference of the United States reported that the defense costs in cases where death was sought were about four times higher than in comparable cases where death was not sought. It was also found that the prosecution costs in death cases were 67% higher than the defense costs, without even including the investigative costs provided by law enforcement agencies.


Sources:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/dpicrace.html http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm http://www.uscourts.gov/publications.html http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/dp/dpfacts.htm

[Somynona]

1. just replying so I can start a thread.

[rbnyc]

97. Well, at least you're honest.

But I do think that's kind of an act of bad faith.

[MysticMind]

2. nothing

I oppose it.

[Somynona]

3. and another

[CalebHayes]

4. Any one support it?

[KG]

6. don't worry.

some will show up to support it.

[forgethell]

9. Do we support it for * ?

Just curious.

[CalebHayes]

12. I don't.... But maybe some time downtown.

[auburnblu]

37. I definitely think it was right for Nazi war criminals

Its barbaric no doubt about it, but I think it was justified for Nazi war criminals.

[rasputin1952]

51. Well..it was used quite of on Nazi war criminals...

But there is something inside of me that makes me think that putting them through what they were putting so many others through would have been more just.

They could have been used for intense labor, until they nearly skeletal, then re-nourished and sent out again. Put them in the same squalid barracks and let them half freeze in those houses of horror. Then, drag them out in ragged clothes to stand in sub-zero temperatures while someone slowly counts heads.

The cycle would be continuous, until they died, either by suicide, or natural causes.

To me, that is real justice. Might seem barbaric to some, but they needed to FEEL what they had done to others. They needed to LIVE those lives. Then die a lonely death.

Just my humble opinion.

O8)

[KG]

5. there is nothing good about it.

it's not justice. it's blood revenge - pure and simple.

[Columbia]

7. In principle I am for it

But pragmatism has me against. It just costs too much more life in prison after all the mandatory appeals and everything. I say throw 'em in prison in life with no creature comforts. No weight-room, no cable, no conjugal visits. Just days on end thinking about the evil crime you did and the freedom you lost for it.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. I have followed these DP debates for years...

and every one of those arguments has a counter-argument and ends up being useless in a debate. The counter-arguments are specious, but are still persuasive, and pro-DP types remain unswayed.

Be that as it may, I am absolutely, positively, unalterably opposed to capital punishment and see nothing whatsoever good about it.

[Bucky]

10. There are some crimes for which it is an appropriate punishment

If we could have perfect justice, there would be some crimes for which death is the right punishment to mete out. It's not a deterrent of course. No intelligent person argues that it is. It functions more as a heavy weapon for plea bargaining between DAs and defense attorneys. But the real problem is, as you pointed out, it's applied in a racially discriminatory manner. I'd be willing to give up my support for it if we could improve the criminal justice system--quicker pre-trial periods, shorter sentences, fairer enforcment, protected civil rights. But there's no real linkage between these issues. So I suppose I'm anti-death penalty, but only reluctantly so and for pragmatic reasons. Oh, and I don't want any death penalty moratoriums to kick in until we've caught tried, sentenced, and executed bin Ladin. Assuming he's guilty, of course.

[Dookus]

11. Nothing good about it...

it's a barbaric remnant of our barbaric past. One day we'll look back on it with shame, just as we do with slavery today.

[Unforgiven]

13. No........

.............repeat offenders.

[snippy]

19. That applies to both the guilty and the innocent who are executed.

It also applies to any crime. If that is a valid rationale for the death penalty all criminals should be executed.

[izzie]

14. This is the answer I always hear. Well he will not do it again.

and I ask, if he did not do it in the first place? they just look at you.

[Unforgiven]

17. Alrighty then........

I guy shoots someone in a bar parking lot. There are 7 witnesses that corroborate the account. where's your argument?

[frogfromthenorth2]

20. You see, you're wrong.. you assume that because

there are 7 witnesses that there is no chance of error.

[Unforgiven]

22. No.........

..........7 people give eyewitness accounts of what happens. All the testimony corroborates. No I am not Wrong. What I will give you, is that I would never, ever condone the death penalty for someone who had been convicted on here say or faulty evidence. If those seven people were people you personally knew and that victim was your wife ,your husband, child or other close relative. Would that change your outlook? If you answer that loaded question, you have just blown your argument

[frogfromthenorth2]

26. Again, you are wrong...

You are mixing two totally different things here. Would I want that person dead ? Hell yes... But that fact has nothing to do with the subject of death penalty. You see, the point of punishing people is not revenge. It doesn't matter how horrible the crime was. If a society thinks that revenge and killing are ways to address crime problems well it's going in the wrong direction.

[Unforgiven]

29. Point

You are still sidestepping the issue of repeat offenders, make me a believer and you win.

[frogfromthenorth2]

31. You want the State to become a repeat offender?

By allowing it to kill whenever it feels like it? Which is better... Oh yeah... It's OK because they are "bad" people....

We should trust the governement to do that job and take that responsability. Murder is not OK, but justified murder is? What's the difference?

[Unforgiven]

33. I'll conclude

Because you don't see the rationale of repeat offenders, let me make this statement. Executing a person who has unlawfully taken someone else's life or even more than one life and has, himself/herself been executed will in fact not ever do harm to another human being. It's just that simple. it's called a fact. Some thing you are refusing to acknowledge. So in closing let me say for you and all of those who hold your beliefs, that you have played a part as it seems in allowing that condition to "Live" on. I never said I was in love with the edict of the death penalty all I stated was that NEVER would that individual harm or intend to do harm to another innocent human being again period. But just for your sake and before you say it ........................i'm Wrong.

[frogfromthenorth2]

34. Prison can achieve the same thing....

And yes, you are wrong when you think that the death penalty is a solution...

[westman]

99. When the evidence is irrefutable,

I support the DP. There is nothing "barbaric" about justice.

[frogfromthenorth2]

103. Justice?!?! You dare calling the killing of a human being JUSTICE?!?

Wow. I call it REVENGE... It has nothing to do with justice. Oh, and by the way : what is the difference between "no reasonable doubt" and "irrefutable".. Who decides which is which?

[westman]

104. You bet it's justice.

And there's nothing wrong with a little revenge as a by-product. Just some lagniappe, in honor of LSU tonight.

But seriously, I think about the body of little 6 year old Opal found in Fort Worth a few days ago. Her abductor is in jail for kidnapping, but was never charged with murder for lack of a body. Now they have one.

Opal spent 5 years in an open field, exposed to the sun, the rain, the wind, the animals...6 years old, wearing Barbie tennis shoes.

She waited eagerly for Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, till this sub human scum took her life.

I'm welling up as I type this. I'd be honored to put the needle in his arm myself.

[Pithlet]

15. Nothing

I'm completely against it. It is barbaric and I can't believe we still have it here in the USA.

[Nikia]

16. Against it, but life without parole puts other prisioners at risk

Many inmates with shorter sentences are good in prision in hopes of getting parole. We have people who committed a violent crime, murder, who know that they have no chance at getting out and no chance at getting the death penalty either. As a result, you have someone who may be dangerous to others. I suppose that solitary confinement is an option, but what kind of life is that for life.
I am generally against the death penalty because I think that it overstepping the states boundaries to decide who should live and who should die, as well as the usual reasons.

[Jacobin]

18. One thing its good for

Whether a country or state has the death penalty is a good indication of how civilized that country or state is.

[ChiefHappyButt]

21. Opposed

No one, even in the name of the state, has the right to kill someone. When a society approves of this behavior, they have initiated the process of descending into barbarism and callousness.

Take a look around. Does anyone even care anymore about the homeless or the hungry? Very few.

Is the US a barbaric country? Seems unable to control its violent impulses on a regular basis.

[rasputin1952]

30. Welcome to Du ChiefHappyButt...

:hi:

[corporatewhore]

23. Racist institution thats why i vote dk

he is willing to end it!!!

[Walt Starr]

24. Well, it does have an extremely low recidivism rate

other than that, I can't think of a lot.

[mmonk]

25. What good is the death penalty?

I guess it makes those who are into revenge feel better.

[Unforgiven]

28. You just don't get it.

While revenge may be part of closure, there are a few things that are absolutes in this existence, death however it happens is one of them. If an individual is convicted of a crime such as murder and is sentenced to death how is that person going to be able to take another innocent life? I want to know this.

[mmonk]

35. If that person was wrongly convicted

can they be brought back once executed?

[Unforgiven]

39. Nope

And that's the only part that bothers me but if you have read my previous posts you should also know that the death penalty is for individuals who are chronic offenders and /or who are a threat to the general population. And to your next question,yes I would rather be dead than reside in a prison population and caged like an animal.
Don't tell me you would relish that scenario. I'm not buyin that.

[mmonk]

42. I think around

130 or 140 people on death row have now been cleared by DNA evidence. Without it, would they have been killed by now?

[Unforgiven]

44. And..........

......sure those people would be dead and gone, and let's not assume that those individuals were sterling citizens, the odds are against it.. By the same token, DNA evidence can incriminate as well. So those two points I think cancel. But if you refer to my previous posts my scenario is more descript. The scenario was a murder witnessed by seven bystanders who saw a man pull a gun and fatally shoot another human being, this individual had already been incarcerated for assault and domestic violence, served that term and released.

[Pithlet]

52. Sterling citizens?

They were innocent! Who cares whether they were sterling or not. Yeah, sometimes DNA also does incriminate. How do those points cancel? Do you mean that because sometimes executed people are actually guilty then it's okay when they're someties not? Kill them all and let God sort it out? That's crazy...

[rasputin1952]

55. Just a second here...

Do you think that 1 innocent person executed is not enough to change the system? I would hope so, especially if that innocent person were you.

It has been said it is better to allow 10 guilty to be let go, than hang 1 innocent.

As for your ridiculous statement about "sterling citizens", you do not have the right to convict someone on the POSSIBILITY they committed a crime. In fact, if you have ever sat on a jury, you cannot convict on the PROBABILITY an individual committed the crime. It must be PROVEN beyond a reasonable doubt, that an individual is guilty, before being found guilty.

For your way of thinking, anyone who ever received a speeding ticket, should get more, just for the hell of it; after all, they MIGHT speed again. And isn't speeding a crime, albeit a misdemeanor or infraction, but a crime none the less. Therefore these are not "sterling citizens", they are criminals, and should be treated as such.

I am actually embarrassed that I am even posting this.

O8)

[frogfromthenorth2]

56. What you don't understand is that if they got ARRESTED in the

first place and were charged with a crime, it certainly means they were no angels... People don't get arrested for NO REASON!!! so why should we cry if a few of them die by "mistake"... They certainly deserved it in a way...

(I hope you understand I was using sarcasm here)

[rasputin1952]

62. Whew... thanks for the sarcasm caveat...

This is a hot subject, and I have been known to go ballistic. LOL


:bounce:

[frogfromthenorth2]

63. LOL ... Easy boy, you can put the gun down now ....false alarm

Nice meeting you! :-)

[rasputin1952]

76. Nice to meet you too frogfromthenorth2...

generally, I look before I jump, but sometimes I can get carried away.

This has been a particularly ugly thread IMHO.

O8)

[frogfromthenorth2]

78. I have seen worse...

But at least there is not to much name calling going on... and you must admit that it's quite a delicate subject...

Can't wait to see the thread about abortion...... just kidding....

[Pithlet]

38. How do we fix it if

we execute an innocent person? There is no way to make it completely foolproof, therefore eventually someone innocent WILL be executed (it's happened already) If you can make an innocent person come back from the dead after being executed, then you'll convince me. All other forms of legal punishment can be reversed except that one.

[Unforgiven]

45. Than your argument

Is to let someone who has wrongfully taken an innocent life to be given a second chance to repeat the offense? Happens you know. If it happens in prison, too bad. If it happens out in society, than I have a huge problem with that. As those of you who can't swallow this line of thinking are just as guilty as the offender, for cutting him loose to prey on innocent citizens, again! Guarantee me this won't happen and you win the argument.

[Pithlet]

49. Saying I'm as guilty as the murderer

because I don't agree with you on the death penalty stance is really bad debate. It's clear there's no discussing this issue with you at all. Because I'm against the death penalty I must be all for letting murderers free to kill again!

Guess what. Three words. Life without parole. I win!

[frogfromthenorth2]

50. Talking to a wall...

That's what you are doing.... Even if you have the ultimate argument to win your case....you loose...

[Unforgiven]

60. What.....

............No Guarantee?

[Pithlet]

66. What is up

with all the dots, by the way........... Someone else I was talking with here at DU does the same thing.

Yes, guarantee. Murderer goes to jail and never comes out again. Problem solved.

Can you guarantee me that no innocent person will EVER get executed? I mean, I know you don't care, but I do. Can you guarantee that?

[Unforgiven]

69. First Off

No Dots, second thing please accept my apology for the cheap shot in an earlier post, not my style. I hold my beliefs strongly as do you and at times it's not pretty. I'm sorry.
I'm still not yet convinced about this issue.

[Pithlet]

71. Okay, apology accepted.

Look, I can understand why some are for the death penalty. It's just that until someone can guarantee me that innocent people won't be put to death, I'll be against it. I just don't see how that is possible.

Edited to add that actually, I probably would still be against it. But my issue with innocent people is really the biggest reason I'm against it, aside from the fact that I don't think the state has the right.

[frogfromthenorth2]

73. I will play the devils advocate here:

His point is: how can YOU garantee that that person will not kill anymore if you let him live? Can't that person kill in prison?


(By the way I am very happy to see that two opposite sides can discuss this in a somewhat civil manner :-) )

[Pithlet]

77. I know

If it makes him happier I'll say there is no way to completely guarantee that. There. I say to him I just don't think that the solution is killing them. I think a better one would be running prisons so that lessens the chance that that happens. Beats the chance of executing someone innocent, doesn't it? Getting rid of the death penalty would free up all the money used in endless appeals, to boot.

[rasputin1952]

82. Actually, there is a way out of this dilema...

some of the 'super security' prisons could handle the problem quite nicely. In CA, Manson and his 'family all have life without parole. Manson, being segregated from the rest of the prison population assures that he won't kill again. His 'family' hasn't killed anyone, while in prison.

Just segregate Lifers from the others, and keep them in lone cells. The SCoTUS would make sure that they got a few hours of sunshine every week, so be it.

Besides, with some of the arguments presented in favor of DP, you'd think they would want Lifers to kill off "all them criminals" anyway.

O8)

[forgethell]

91. What about all

those people that went to prison on false allegations of child abuse? the 'victims' recanted and renoounced their original accusations, yet the people remained in jail. the prosecutors (Janet Reno for one) refused to reopen the cases because "at some time, the process has to be ove,it cant go on forever". Ok, you can release them, but no amount of money can compensate them for the years out of their lives, for the broken careers and relationships, for the loss of reputation.

Any time society presumes to punish, it runs the risk of punishing an innocent person. So I don't consider this be a valid argument against the death penalty more than any other punishment.

Society, should make every effort to only convict those who are guilty. I blame the prosecutors, who are supposed to pursue the truth rather than convictions. but defense attorneys who are willing to come up with ridiculous theories (OJ's attorneys come to mind, as do Scott Peterson's) to cast doubt on the evidence are not blameless. when sone side goes to extremes, the other will, too.

[Pithlet]

93. It is a perfectly valid argument

With any other punishment, the innocent person is still alive. As long as they're alive, it is reversible. Dead is dead. There's no changing that. It is final.

Are you really okay with an innocent person being put to death just so we can have the death penalty?

[forgethell]

95. No,

I think every precaution should be taken t prevent that. but I am in favor of the death penalty.

[Serenity-NOW]

27. Let's see what other advanced westernized nations do...

...what's that? We are it? Oh boy we got some splainin' to do.

[rasputin1952]

65. Sorry serenity-NOW...

guess I should have wished you a hello earlier!

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[rasputin1952]

32. The DP serves no other purpose than acting out...

revenge. Life in prison w/o parole is justice, as well as revenge.

I am adamnantly opposed to the DP.

O8)

[barbaraann]

36. Well, would the French Revolution have succeeded without it?

Would royalty have ever given up the idea that they were entitled to rule if they hadn't been guillotined?

[Overkil]

40. The death penalty's not tough enough.........

Ya I know this will never happen and I'm a sick SOB for even putting this on paper but......

I support the death penalty but there are some drawbacks. Some say it lets the criminal off easy - I can see that. Others say that it's no deterent - I can see that too. It's not like we've ever had someone come back from the dead and report that there is a hell and they're there because of what they did while alive. I think what we need is a "life worse than death" penalty for the worst of the worst. The ones where there were seven witnesses, etc. Torture them until they are on death's doorstep then bring them back to health and do it all over again - for the rest of their lives. Soon enough they'll be wishing for death but they don't get off that easy. Oh and did i mention that the victim's family gets to administer the torture if they wanted (or atleast be in on selecting the type)? And the torture would be in the realm of medical research so it would benefit the population as a whole - sorta the criminal's way of giving back. And the final argument against the death penalty - what if they're innocent? This way they'd still be alive to be set free if it turns out they were actually innocent. Televize it and you'd have your deterent.

[rasputin1952]

58. The VIII Amendment reads...

Excessive bail shall not be required, not excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Pretty well sums up why your idea won't work.

Thank God, I might add.

We can fix the problems we have, but we sure won't find the answers in the 12th Century.

O8)

[Pithlet]

Thank God, indeed!

I can see that ammendment was clearly needed. Shudder...

[rasputin1952]

80. Yes, the Founders were wise well beyond their time...

Of course, they were but a generation away from "witch hunts", and all kinds of insanity.

If we can keep The Constitution together just a little longer, bushco will be out, and we can get back on track.

O8)

[MrSlayer]

41. I'm for the death penalty.

And I'm for Abortion rights. I don't see how anyone can be for one and not the other, killing is killing. Someone said the death penalty isn't justice but simple blood revenge and I say "What's your point?". Of course it is and I don't think it's enough in a lot of cases. The death penalty is too easy of a way out compared to the crimes some of these scumbags commit. If someone killed a member of my family or someone close to me I would want the right to do that person in myself in the method of my choosing. It might not be a deterrent and it won't bring my loved one back but I will feel better and that's all that matters. I would like to see the crimes that are death penalty eligible expanded to rape and child molestation. Child molesters are the lowest of the low.

[rasputin1952]

75. Actually...it was about 30 years ago...

in a major revamp of laws, that rape and child molestation were removed from the Capital crimes list. One of the reasons were innocent individuals being executed, (although very rarely).

As for abortion. RU-486 would alleviate the situation in that case. But the neo-cons will have nothing to do with RU-486, (which works BEFORE the cells divide into a viable entity). They hate it for two reasons: #1. It would rob them of the anti-abortion vote
#2. The real problem with neo-cons is, they don't want anyone to have sex, (except themselves of course).

As for the rest of your statement; I can only say that there is little merit in vigilante justice. While I can certainly sympathize with you on the emotional state one would be in, after a murder in the family, alas, it only makes you a murderer as well.

O8)

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. It is 100% effective

in preventing recidivism.

[Unforgiven]

47. The point........

....... which I was trying to make, and few people here are understanding.

[frogfromthenorth2]

48. Only when you are blind can you believe that's

REALLY the point.

[Unforgiven]

53. Blind

You have repeatedly sidestepped the issue of repeat offenders, which leads me to the unarguable fact, you have no argument. It also shows that you have ,I think little regard for those who try to live within the confines of the law of this land, perhaps assuming that a convicted murderer has the same amount of right to live as a law abiding citizen. Now who is blind here?

[frogfromthenorth2]

54. Life Without Parole... there is your argument

Your turn now to "debunk" it...

[Unforgiven]

57. Here goes.........

OK,............We take an individual who has been accused of murder 1 and now we are going to house this individual at a cost of what,say maybe $100,000 or more over his lifetime in jail. Why? That's one point, Now what if he just happens to shank that innocent person everyone here is so concerned with here in prison. The point I was making earlier was that here is someone who is a murderer has the same value as a law abiding citizen? Please explain.

[frogfromthenorth2]

59. $$$$$ ahhhhhh the truth comes out..... $$$$$

You are concerned about your hard earned money. Well THAT makes sense... You know you're right... because when you think of it, life should be measured in dollars and cents. But I don't buy your concern about other inmates in prison having the possibility of being killed by that murderer. Doesn't fit you at all... sorry

[Unforgiven]

61. Will this wash......

You believe that life is sacred, do we agree on that?

[frogfromthenorth2]

64. Sure I do...

[Unforgiven]

67. Ok...........Phew!

Now can we agree on one more thing. If,......... a person who has deliberately taken a human life is executed or killed for whatever reason, do we also agree that he/she will take no more human lives.
And if not please explain.

[frogfromthenorth2]

70. I you use mathematical logic yes, but the problem with this is that

you will have to resort to MURDER to do it. To kill to prevent killing is illogical. Life Without Parole will do the trick + the bonus of NEVER EVER have the State killing an innocent person. That logic I will buy right away!

You see, when you use the death penalty, you kill in the name of the whole group. A society who lets innocent people being killed by the state that govern them doesn't add up. It makes no sense and that's what is Barbaric.

That's the difference between a father who wants to kill the person who murdered his child. It's a normal reaction, a normal feeling or impulse. And still, it's wrong in face of the law. So why should the state be able to do it? It makes it worse since now the killer is all of us reunited. And when there is a mistake made, well we are all responsible.

[Unforgiven]

79. Deeper and Deeper

You may yet convert me, what had me confused earlier is a post you had made responding to my hypothetical murder and you responded that you too would see the perpetrator dead. So it seemed as a double standard of sorts to me. Also still uneasy about escaped or early release offenders and this may be a problem with tight budgets and privatized prisons. I simply can't bear to see innocent people suffer at the hands of criminals, particularly children and women, but that's me. The only recourse I had was the death penalty. Can you understand?

[frogfromthenorth2]

81. Sure I do understand

Nobody wants to see an innocent child killed, or a mother or a father. But in prison there is not much chance that this person can kill a child again.

What is unbearable is the killing of an innocent person after a process that is suppose to bee fool proof but that it's not. State sponsored killing of an innocent.

[Unforgiven]

85. Why I am this way

Is when I pick up a paper and see some thing like what happened here in the bay area several years ago. A woman was on vacation here in Tampa if I recall the story correctly from Ohio, she meets a man, he invites her and her three daughters to go boating, she agrees, they go boating he kills all four of them ties them up with cinder blocks, dumps them in the bay and is later charged with their disappearance. You are probably aware of this as it made national headlines. This man was wanted in several areas of the country for similar disappearances. What I distinctly remember is seeing the pictures of the three beautiful girls and their attractive mother on the front page at the time, and wanting to go to the restroom and throw up, as I have no children of my own. I have not forgotten the rage and disgust from that day forward and every time I pick up a newspaper and see similar accounts it brings back those feelings and gives the death penalty new meaning at least for me. This is where I'm coming from. And right or wrong this, it seems is the only justification for me if you will, for such actions. I will be lees outspoken of the death penalty as of tonight because of the discussions here, but I will not ever forget those images and the countless days of news of this event.

[Pithlet]

87. I know

Since I became a parent, it especially hits me hard whenever I see anything happen to children. It sparks such a vengeful feeling in me. Believe me, there are times when it is very hard to be against the death penalty. It's horrible when anyone is the victim of a murder.

Our justice system isn't about vengeance, it is about justice. As satisfying as it is to give in to that feeling, it doesn't serve justice.

[rasputin1952]

89. And you should never forget those faces...

that is why civilization has progressed as far as it has; because those of us that dwell in this society remember the horrors that can come with this life.

I used to work in a hospital, (I know, a little off subject here), and I truly believe that NO ONE should die alone. I would sit for hours with the dying, just so someone would be there.

It helped me to frame part of my life, and learn to respect it.

I too am disgusted with murderers, rapists and child molesters. The only respect I have for them, is that they are living beings, and there is a possibility, as small as that may be, that they can square themselves with whatever deity they believe in. Once cast out of society by doing a Life w/o parole, they cannot harm people again. Segregate them into separate cells, and distanced from the General Population of the prison. Kind of like a "Silence of the Lambs" thing, I suppose, just get them into solitary and leave them there.

O8)

[Pithlet]

68. Oh, believe me

edited because I went a litle overboard.

[Unforgiven]

72. No

That is my sticking point and what has me torn in this issue, no way in hell can any one, no more than you can tell me that a repeat offender won't kill again if let out or escaped. Now what do we do?
Is that still evasive?

[Pithlet]

74. I think that the risk

of the state executing an innocent person trumps the risk that someone MIGHT commit another crime. For one thing, you cannot punish people for things they might do in the future, only for things they've already done. BTW, I had edited my post because I realized I was being too strong, so I apologize for that. I just don't understand how the worry of what might happen makes it okay for the state to possibly kill innocent people. You can go too far in ensuring the public safety. Especially considering that most who get life without parole actually do stay in prison and do not escape and murder again. If they were let out early, and commit a murder, then that is wrong, but the solution is to stop letting them out.

[rasputin1952]

86. You can also add to that...

Escapes from prison are incredibly rare, considering the # of prisoners now incarcerated.

Personally, I pray that in the future people may finally get enough sense in them to realize that killing another really never solves anything. The reality of the situation is that killing another only makes things worse, much worse.

But alas I dream. Humanity, unfortunately has never learned this lesson, and most likely never will.

O8)

[Pithlet]

88. You're right

And, I do believe that enough will eventually come around and hope to see it abolished all over the country once again. Other countries have already done so.

[ButterflyBlood]

46. nothing

[Hippo_Tron]

83. How does an execution cost that much?

Somebody please explain.

[Pithlet]

84. Appeals

Because the death penalty is so final, more appeals are allowed. As a matter of fact, I believe all death penalty convictions are automatically appealed.

[VOX]

90. Nothing. The DP doesn't undo any crime, and brings no victim back to life.

State-sanctioned killing is something which the United States, as an allegedly civilized and modern nation, should have moved beyond decades ago.

[rbnyc]

98. That just about sums it up. (nt)

[WonderGrunion]

92. I have struggled....

With my opinion on the death penalty. I feel, with all my heart, that some people have abdicated any right to rehabilitation (The bastard that killed Polly Klaas comes to mind) and we should spend no time trying to run a fools errand.

However, I'm greatly disturbed at the trend among juries and judges to assign the death penalty more to minorities than whites, more frequently to juvenile offenders, and more often to "non-horrific" crimes. I feel that a nation wide moratorium should be placed on the death penalty, all sentences should be commuted to life-no parole, and a nation wide commission should be set up to determine strict guidelines under which the death penalty should be assigned.

[rasputin1952]

I look at it as irreversible, and that is what is so damn disturbing...

For each innocent person that is imprisoned, much less executed; it is important to remember that the perpetrator is the one who is still running around in society, possibly committing more crimes.

It is bad enough that one cannot bring back the dead, but if it turns out later, that 20 more died, because the wrong person was executed, where the hell is the sense of that?

As for the racial rationale, I agree it seems that minorities appear to get the short end of the stick, but then again, none of us have the details of any of these cases. Did 'X' shoot 'Y'? Why did this happen. Did 'X' dismember 'Y' after the shooting?

My point is, all we ever get is that 'X' was convicted for shooting 'Y', and is sentenced to die. If there is a DP, it should only be for the most heinous of crimes, with malice.

Easier to just give Life w/o parole.

:shrug:

O8)

[Unforgiven]

96. edited

[rasputin1952]

94. I look at it as irreversible, and that is what is so damn disturbing...

For each innocent person that is imprisoned, much less executed; it is important to rembere that the perpetrator is the one who is still running around in society, possibly committing more crimes.

It is bad enough that one cannot bring back the dead, but if it turns out later, that 20 more died, because the wrong person was executed, where the hell is the sense of that?

As for the racial rationale, I agree it seems that minorities appear to get the short end of the stick, but then again, none of us have the details of any of these cases. Did 'X' shoot 'Y'? Why did this happen. Did 'X' dismember 'Y' after the shooting?

My point is, all we ever get is that 'X' was convicted for shooting 'Y', and is sentenced to die. If there is a DP, it should only be for the most heinous of crimes, with malice.

Easier to just give Life w/o parole.

:shrug:

O8)

[Unforgiven]

100. Why the Hell

didn't you make this argument earlier in the thread? I think you just shoved me off the fence.

[rasputin1952]

101. I don't know...

just one of those things I've argued so long, I guess it just slipped my mind.

Look at the great discourse we got out of this though!


O8)

[Unforgiven]

102. Yeh.

Yeh, I guess so, and maybe after thinking about all that was said here last night, yesterday would not have worked? Kinda like walking out of a sandstorm.


Now about that Abortion Issue..............