I am a smoker, in PA, and I want our state to outlaw smoking...

[FDRrocks]

In places where workers loiter around the smoky areas for elongated periods of time, especially bars. I'm watching CNN, right now at 4:36 in the morning. The more liberal side is arguiing for the smoking laws, not accusing conservatives, while the right leaning side is accusing liberals wholesale, saying they basically want to control the world.

The people take this all out of context, and Bob Novak cannot even pinpoint it. It is about the employees condition. Second hand smoke harms, so you shouldn't be able to shoot it everywhere where someone works, seems common sense.

The arguments the conservatives on this CNN show were able to come u with were completely selective. Saying the Liberals want to stop smokers from smoking in bars. The workers don't matter, apparently. Besides that, the Conservatives champion measures hurting the working people, and at the same time advocate the big guy over the little guy.

I am just so disgusted by the display I witnessed this morning on CNN.

[Hippo_Tron]

1. I agree with getting rid of it in restaurants but not bars...

The bottom line is that it's a bar, what do you expect? Bars are a place to drink and smoke. I agree with safe working conditions but I think in this case the employees either need to accept the risks of second hand smoke or not work in a bar.

[FDRrocks]

2. that seems like a slippery slope to me...

Jobs are limited. Some jobs don't pay enough to support certain conditions. Smoking is essentially harmful to the user but also harmful to those around them. I think by those criteria it should be banned in places where workers would be exposed to it.

It seems to me it is almost working someone to death.

[K8-EEE]

6. Bars Are A Place To Drink, Not Smoke!!

The smokers can go outside. Or join one of those "smokers" club and all breathe in each other's poison. Believe me for every person who decides they can't stand going somewhere where you can't smoke, there is someone like me who starts going to those places again just because they can breathe again after the new laws!

I'm a huge jazz lover but I went years without going to the clubs after I quit smoking, it just bugged me too much. Now I go at least once a week. Hey DU-ers in the L.A. area -- we must get together at my local, Charlie O's -- live jazz 7 nights a week!

[Hippo_Tron]

10. That's an interesting point...

This issue may be more complicated than it appears.

[drdigi420]

54. sorry, but this should be the bars' choice

if the bar wants to exclude people that don't like smoke, they take the economic hit for it

i quit cigs aobut 5 years ago, and establishments that don't have well ventilated smoking sections dont get my business

there is no need to bring the govt into it

I do agree that a smoke free workplace for offices should be mandated, where people are forced to sit inside and there is little or no ventilation

If you work in a drug den (a bar) you should expect to see people doing drugs (alcohol and nicotine)

I personally avoid bars because people drink there, and drunk people are annoying and sometimes violent.

Legalize pot and we can have some drink-free bars open up. No violence, nopuking, and no old leany guy hitting on you!

[NJGeek]

106. Sorry my friend, a cigarette is too dry and a drink is too wet.

[Bandit]

82. How about I tell all my workers they no longer get clean restrooms and

no hard hats or seat belts any more. Hell if they don't like taking risks they can find another job somewhere. Also I want to hire eight year olds for a twelve hour day. Hell they don't have to work for me if they don't want to. :shrug: What good are occupational standards anyway?

[K8-EEE]

3. Don't Forget That Tobacco = GOP Donations

Which is another good reason to quit!

I know a singer who works in bars here in L.A. -- and he said before the changed the smoking laws he was looking at giving it up completely because when you are singing you are breathing deeper than the rest of the people in the room, he would come home and hack his guts out. The no-smoking laws here saved his health and his job.

I can't think of one good reason to allow people to smoke in a confined space. Even when I smoked I smoked outside!

[FDRrocks]

4. that is exactly how i feel., in a nutshell. n/t

[PVnRT]

75. So does oil, insurance, energy, telecommunications...

Well, you get the idea...

[MadHound]

77. Ahh, but you are forgetting the Tobacco=Dem donations too!

Specifically in the '00 election cycle Phillip Morris donated over two million to both Dems and 'Pugs. Just another coporation setting itself up to be the master no matter who gets in.

[Columbia]

5. I'm not a smoker

But I believe smokers have a right to destroy their bodies as long as it doesn't affect anyone else. As far as bars go, it should be up to the owner of the bar to make the decision whether to allow smoking or not. The bar industry is a small field and those who work in it know the risks of second-hand smoke and have the choice to leave it or choose a bar that voluntarily bans smoking.

[FDRrocks]

7. I have worked in several bars... as a dishwasher in my younger years...

The owners usually sit in the back, behind the kitchen. They are not sitting in the same room as dozen of smokers, as many barhops, waitreses, busboys and even dishwashers are doing. I really do believe in personal freedom, which is why I oppose smoking in the cases I mentioned. You can go outside, don't expose other people. The 'freedom' of people to smoke at bars and restaurants restricts the freedom of others to live long and healthy lives.

[nayt]

8. uh

shouldn't it be up to the property owner to decide?

[FDRrocks]

9. No it should be up the workers of that place....

The many, rather than the few.

[Columbia]

13. If that were the case...

The workers may just end up becoming former workers when the place has to close down because they lost all the business from smokers.

[K8-EEE]

14. Fear Fear Fear...

They did that same stuff here when it was up for passage in L.A. Oh no!! All these poor people will be out of work if the smoking laws get passed.

Nonsense...now there is just cleaner air in bars and restaurants, that's all. It's progress. It's win/win. Just because these habits developed in a more ignorant time, doesn't mean we don't have to address what we now know the dangers are and adjust the health codes accordingly.

[arcos]

19. Most bars have had a HUGE decline in patrons and income in NYC...

since the ban was passed.

I, for one, would not go to a bar where I could now smoke. I understand the position of those who think it's necessary. But if I'm drinking alcohol I want to have a cigarrette.

[FDRrocks]

22. You would not feel bad about exposing workers to cancer? n/t

[K8-EEE]

33. No, because...

he's an addict and so is just concerned with his addiction, but why is that my problem? I kicked it, I shouldn't have to breathe it in a public place, period.

[arcos]

36. I thought bars were private locations...

Owners should be able to choose whether they want smoke or not.

What if the owner is a smoker? I know several such cases.

If owners can choose whether to allow smoking, if you don't like a bar because there's smoke simply don't go to it. But don't force everyone to comply to what you want, just because you may decide to visit.

[PVnRT]

76. Funny

Your compassion for those suffering from addiction is enormous. Do you feel the same about heroin and coke junkies too?

[K8-EEE]

84. Yep!

Oh brother!! You smokers are such whiners. I'm not telling you you CAN'T smoke, I'm saying I don't want to breathe it in a public place.

How about YOUR compassion for asthmatics or everyone else who could be seriously injured by your addiction?

[PVnRT]

88. Oh brother!! You antismokers are such arrogant jerks.

Funny that you automatically assume I'm one of those heinous, evil, worse-than-George Bush smokers simply because I disagree with you - says a lot about the kind of person you are.

[K8-EEE]

96. Well

Your point was just so ridiculous what has it got to do with compassion? I do feel sorry for smokers, and for all addicts of all kinds. I just don't want to breathe the smoke. Does your "compassion" for heroin addicts include shooting up with them? Addictions suck and almost everyone has one but smoking is unique in that it stinks up everyones space, not just the smoker, whose sense of smell is usually compromised anyhow.

[lcordero]

24. huge...that's money that is never going to come back either

most of my friends have started going to New Jersey. All of them have said that even if the smoking ban is lifted they will NEVER go to another NYC bar because the prices are so high.

A lot of these stupid people in the govt can't figure that tourism and the nightlife bring in a lot of revenue to NYC. 9/11 and the war fucked up tourism in NYC big time. The smoking ban put the icing on the cake.

[K8-EEE]

29. 9/11 and the war for sure have screwed up NYC tourism..

So they should at least have bars that don't stink! I was out in RI last Sept...it was such a drag, there were NO non-smoking places anywhere in Newport, I had to wash even stuff I didn't wear cuz it was in the suitcase with stuff I wore out. All the RIers I was with were complaining about it. It only takes a few smokers to really screw up a bar.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. ha ha, there are few New Yorkers going to NJ to smoke

Sorry. I lived through a smoking ban in San Francisco - lots of whining by the Owners Association, and nighlife is still intact. I lived through the New York City smoking ban - nightlife still going strong. None of my friends are trekking to Hoboken to smoke, come on!

Tourists do not come to New York so they can smoke in the bars. If I were mayor, I would have exempted some kinds of bars, but on the whole the smoking bans work pretty well.

Now is a good time to get nicotine gum or the patch. The cigarettes are killing you!

[sharkbait2]

100. Time to quit Drinking! It kills.

I don't think government should trust you to drink responsibly... not to mention, restaurants are meant to serve food and shouldn't have bars. </sarcasm>

[K8-EEE]

11. Nope!

Nah, certain health codes should be manditory. The owner can't have rats running around the kitchen, locks on fire doors, pyro-technics in a tiny, flamable club like in RI, OR carcinegic smoke blowing around in a confined space where his workers are exposed to them every day.

It's ridiculous to say, Oh all those waitresses can just get another job somewhere else. Nobody should have to work in THAT hazardous of conditions -- you can always find people desperate for a job but it just isn't right, or at all necessary.

[FDRrocks]

12. Good sum up n/t

[uhhuh]

15. I agree

I think we should outlaw coal mining too.

[FDRrocks]

16. I think we should too...

The powerful coal industry doesn't, despite the fact that it is archaic.

[K8-EEE]

32. Yeah!

I would like some busybodies to legislate that since we HAVE THE FREAKING TECHNOLOGY maybe we should be developing clean energy. We could/should be converting to wind and solar power, why aren't we? Cuz there are evildoers who are willing to completely wreck the planet to get the remaining 50% of fossil fuel out, not to mention starting wars over it...

[lcordero]

17. I'm a non-smoker and am somewhat conscientious about

my health...but when I do go to bars it's not for my health.

[FDRrocks]

18. about your liver or your lungs? n/t

[lcordero]

21. yes but not when i go to a bar.

[K8-EEE]

23. I Go To Bars...

to socialize, hear music, sometimes to drink wine and sometimes to drink diet Coke....I don't go there to get lung cancer!

[lcordero]

25. then don't go to bars.

[K8-EEE]

28. Oh brother

Luckily in L.A. we CAN go to bars, and breathe too. It's a good system. Why you think you have to get poisoned to go to a bar is beyond me...I just don't get it.

[lcordero]

42. the go to LA

[arcos]

35. that's why bar owners should be able to choose...

that way both you and I can choose where to go.

[KTM]

61. Bingo

Leave it up to the bars - there should be smoking bars and non-smoking bars. I'm a smoker - my favorite bar happens to be non-smoking, and I go outside when I want a smoke, but put up with that because I love the place. On the other hand, I am a future bar-owner, and I have no intention of going smoke-free. If you dont want to come to my smoky bar, dont come. If you can't accept that I allow smoking, dont bother applying for a job.

The non-smokers are the pushy assholes here, IMHO. They want to legislate their choice on the world, and parade their holier-than-thou attitude whenever the chance arises - witness this thread.

Go somewhere else - I won't miss your business.

[arcos]

71. Yes...

I believe in respect and separate areas if necessary, but smokers are starting to suffer discrimination.

[sharkbait2]

101. There's no reason there can't be both

There are plenty of restaurants and bars that ban smoking on their own, and enough that allow it. I don't see why government should be brought into the mix. Ultimately it should be the choice of the bar owners, and smoklng/non-smoking consumers as to which locations they want to attend.

[arcos]

103. exactly! n/t

[LifeDuringWartime]

58. diet coke

probably as bad as the alcohol and tobacco, btw

[K8-EEE]

85. My Drinking Doesn't Affect YOUR Health

How hard is that to understand?? The 2nd hand smoke adversely affects those around you -- where as somebody drinking a diet Coke doesn't I mean DUH!!!!

[PVnRT]

89. Drinking

If someone drinks alcohol, then drives, then sideswipes you, that sure as hell affects your health. Not to mention the fact that credible scientists and government agencies have all but completely discredited the repots on secondhand smoke, but anyway...

[K8-EEE]

97. I Didn't SAY Drinking and Driving!

Drinking and driving is not the same as drinking. Duh.

Cigarette smoking does affect my health adversely, I have experienced it enough times. We have a right to breathe smoke-free air, end of story.

[fdmoney]

81. It's not about you, it's about the employees.

"I Go To Bars to socialize, hear music, sometimes to drink wine and sometimes to drink diet Coke....I don't go there to get lung cancer!"

It doesn't matter what you want out of a bar. Vote with your feet, don't patronize the establishment. But where employees are concerned, then we have a reason to get involved. No one should have to be subjected to those levels of second hand smoke just to support themselves.

Support ban's on smoking in your area!

fdd

[sharkbait2]

102. No one's forcing them to work in a smoking establishment

They can easily find non-smoking establishments to work for. Same goes for a coal miner, pest exterminator...etc. You don't think those lines of work pose even greater health risks?

[lcordero]

20. btw...I feel this is overlegislating at it's finest

when we have so many other more pressing problems.
This is only going to serve to scare people away from any left leaning organizations.
The average person is going to view it as taking yet another mile.

Hell, The Dems in NY are thinking of sticking their fat, unwelcomed fucking noses inside people's cars. This is a sure way to make NY into a Republican state. Everybody...and I mean EVERYBODY hates a busybody. This kind of shit is authoritarian in nature and I despise it.

[K8-EEE]

26. It's Not Overlegislating IMO

It's only updating the health codes to reflect current information, cripes, it's not the end of the world. Trust me...THERE ARE STILL BARS IN L.A.!! WITH BIG LINES OUTSIDE! NO BIG!

[lcordero]

30. let me make this a little more clearer

People hate busybodies. People will not vote for busybodies. I don't like busybodies and I won't vote for them either. Anybody that gets into a pissing contest with half of the voting population is going to find themselves voted out of office.

[K8-EEE]

31. Well You Must Love GWB's Environmental Policies

Cuz he hates busybodies too! He hates those busybodies telling him how much garbage industries can spew into the air and how many forests they can clear. Personally I like those "busybodies" and will vote for them every time!

[lcordero]

34. He has had plenty of help from this side of the aisle

[Speed8098]

40. Let me get this straight.

You want a ban on smoking in bars to protect the workers??

Let me take a minute on this.

A Neighborhood bar has how many employees working on a shift?
Usually 1 or 2 on average, and 7 out of 10 times it's the owner.
How many patrons? 15 -30

Who benefits from the smoking ban? The many or the few??

Ok, you say I'm being unrealistic? Let's say the Bar in question has 10 employees per shift. How many patrons do you think would be in a bar that size? 50-100? How many of them do you think would be smokers? Remember, this is a bar. 25-75 maybe?? Still, who benefits, the many or the few??

Let me try a different approach, what kills more? Alcohol or second hand smoke?? Please provide backup to your answer.

Now let me get the flames thrown at me.

http://www.davehitt.com/facts/who.html

(snip)Fact: The study found no statistically significant risk existed for non-smokers who either lived or worked with smokers

This study was done by the World Health Organization.

Your turn

[lcordero]

44. Actually, let's take this from a different angle

Smoking ban instituted in NYC--->drastic drop in business in NYC--->conclusion: somebody that is too cheap to smoke in the first place is too cheap to go to bars. Example, I am too cheap to smoke and I'm an even bigger tightwad when it comes to going to a bar.

I quit smoking about two years ago. I limit my exposure to alcohol so that I will give myself less of an opportunity or excuse to go back to smoking.

[Character Assassin]

80. This is correct. The arguments against 2nd hand smoke are specious

But the true believers foam ever onwards at saving those not in need of saving.

[ChemEng]

56. This has nothing to do with GWB's policies, but with a gaggle of nannies....

who apparently have nothing else better to do. What next? Ban smoking in people's homes where children are present?

As someone else has posted, the World Health Organization has not found a risk to health from second hand smoke. And I know for a fact these laws banning smoking in bars are regularly ignored. All you do is breed contempt for the law when you pass these nanny laws. If you don't like a bar with smoking, then go somewhere else!

Now, I think I'll light up a fine cigar.

[Divernan]

37. "Half the voting population"? I don't think so.

Your post indicates half the voting population will be pissed off by banning smoking in bars or cars or wherever. Anyone got any cites/stats on how many Americans smoke, and how many American registered voters who smoke?

Keep in mind, that all those low income urban teenagers who are particularly targeted by tobacco advertising campaigns are not yet old enough to vote. Interesting thought - the same minority/impoverished teens and pre-teens are targeted by military recuiters and Big Tobacco. Soon they'll probably start sharing billboards. Hey kids, smoke all you want because you'll die in a foreign war for Big Oil long before you would develop emphysema or lung cancer.

[lcordero]

39. This isn't just statistics

Counting all of the people that I have everyday contact with, one other person and I are the only nonsmokers.
Inside my own apartment I am one of three, the other two are smokers.
At work I am one of two nonsmokers from eight people.

[shanti]

51. so you live in ny?

your state sound soooo different from mine, california. i believe that the changes to our smoking laws have enticed many people to QUIT. is that not a good thing? you are one of two at work who DON'T smoke? pitiful...in my office there are maybe 1 or 2 out of 50 who do still smoke, the diehards. i have never smoked and nobody in my home smokes tobacco.

i side with k8eee on this one. there is nothing positive about nicotine and secondhand smoke.

[lcordero]

65. People here really despise being told how to live

I know I do.

[shanti]

68. fine

keep on killing yourself, but don't expect us nonsmokers to put up with your secondhand smoke :shrug:

[lcordero]

73. I'm a nonsmoker

I go to bar maybe once every 10 blue moons:D

[K8-EEE]

86. You Know YOU Do But...

You really can't speak for "people here." I'm a "people here" and I don't want to breathe smoke in public places. Also I don't want corporations polluting the air, or individuals polluting the air.

[sharkbait2]

104. Where's "Here"?

and who died and nominated you as spokesperson? You can speak for yourself and no one else.

I think that's the problem with busy bodies and legislators passing these types of laws... much like Bushco, they love "speaking for America as if we're individually not capable of holding our own opinions.

I happen to be a smoker, but I absolutely despise overzealous regulation and even if I quit tomorrow and had lung cancer, I still don't think its my right or the right of elected representatives to infringe on the freedoms of others.

[Columbia]

27. I second that

[Dr.Phool]

38. They did it in Florida

No smoking in any workplace indoors. There is an exception to stand-alone bars, and bars that do less than 10% food business. I have no problem with stepping outside for a smoke, but this is Florida. Pennsylvania has some cold weather.

A lot of bars and restraunts here have outdoor dining, and tiki bars where smoking is allowed. I read a letter to the editor in the St. Pete times the other day where the guy was whining because the smokers took all the best seats in the house-outdoors. Du-uh

However bar and restraunt revenues are WAY down since the ban.

[NicRic]

41. Smoker living in Ca. !

Iam a smoker ,wish I could quit .Hopefully I will some day soon ! My wife works in a large card room and B/4 California outlawed smolking in this places ,resturants ,bars any plublic indoor establishment ,she would come home with her hair and clothes smelling the strong oder of smoke ,she is a none smoker, and would hate the second hand smoke .I have 2 young children and there is no smoking in our home .I go outside and so does anyone else that wants to smoke .About 2 years ago I went to Chicago to attend a family wedding and when I entered the lobby of the hotel, the smell of smoke was awlful, and very noticable ! It made me very happy that California had passed the ban on indoor smoking ,even I a smoker ,thought the smell was terrible inside these fancy places that allowed smoking. I have no problem going outside where ever Iam to have a smoke !

[izzie]

43. I like a glass a wine and I think they should outlaw it.

A lot of people die in cars after having wine.They also kill people who do not drink.

[K8-EEE]

87. Drinking And Driving

Is against the law. As is smoking in public places here in L.A., both laws are necessary.

It's up to the individual to not drive and drink, drive and talk on the phone, drive and eat a hamburger or anything else that would be dangerous while driving, OBVIOUSLY...

We are talking about the right of non-smokers to patronize a public space without being exposed to second had smoke.

[randr]

45. This is not a conservative/liberal debate

There are people of both political persuasion on each side of this. The majority of tobacco money does go to conservative legislators only due to their questionable ethics. The rest of us are more divided over personal freedoms and historical/cultural precedent.
As a one time smoker who frequented many a smoke filled bar, I do recognize the issues addressed by the "I have a right to own and operate an establishment that permits my friends and customers that smoke to do so". At the same time, as an ex/non smoker, I absolutely do not want anyone to be able to pollute my personal space with their toxic waste.
I do, however, think there should be smoker bars and other establishments for these people just as there are establishments that cater to clients that like to watch people take their clothes off.
The real issue here is of a more human civility. Just as we have learned to control our nature to fart, we are not prone to do so in public.
We do not masturbate in public.
We urinate and defecate behind closed doors and expect the results to disappear by the most sanitary means possible.
We need to establish this same civility in regards to smoking rather that legislate ourselves in to PC hell.

[Speed8098]

46. Very well said

That's all I think anyone could ask for on this subject, civility.

[PVnRT]

78. So smoking is equivalent to masturbation?

Man, you militant anti-smokers will stop at nothing to stigmatize smokers, won't you? Funny that you don't do the same to people who suffer from addictions to other drugs.

[SheilaT]

47. Ahhh, once again the debate on

outlawing smoking in public places, including bars.

I keep on forgetting how every bar in California shut down and has not reopened to this day once they banned smoking there. What? I'm wrong? So how many are still open? A dozen? Oh. Pretty much all of them.

(sarcasm off)

The truth of the matter is that about three quarters of all adults DO NOT smoke. So those of you who are in the minority of nonsmokers of your acquaintances or in your workplace, you need to know that you're in a particular demographic of smokers. Yeah, it's actually something of a class issue, only these days the upper classes smoke less. Except possibly for cigars, and I've NEVER understood why someone would want to put something that looks, quite frankly, like a turd in their mouth.

There are places I don't go to because of the cigarette smoke. An open room with one side being smoking and the other non, hardly provides any separation or clean air. Oh. And another thing. Why is it that in a large number of restaurants with the two sections, the wait for the nonsmoking section is always longer than the wait for smoking? I dunno, could it be that the demand for nonsmoking is higher? Whaddya think.

[BonjourUSA]

48. Nothing worse than the ex-smokers

x(

What is better a little smoke or a big hamburger ?

[Skittles]

49. oh come on

there are plenty of things worse than cigs OR hamburgers. Like, say, REPUBLICANS.

[ButterflyBlood]

66. the hamburger isn't addictive

and at least it tastes good and thus has a purpose. The only benefit of smoking I can think is you can ask for a light to strike up a conservation with another smoker.

[K8-EEE]

95. Well...

Hamburgers CAN be addictive, I think fast food can be addictive, but it is up to the individual...it doesn't do ME any harm for somebody to eat a hamburger next to me but if they light a cig next to me it's annoying. Cough!

[SOS]

52. Why is the health

of bartenders the only concern? If the goal is to decrease the incidence of lung disease in the US we need to address some other issues.

Textile workers with brown lung from cotton bract.
Agricultural workers with lung disease from inhaling pesticides and grain dust.
Coal miners.
Ship workers suffering asbestosis.
Sulfur dioxide poisoning in refinery and smelter workers.
Office workers sealed in sick buildings with no fresh air and poisonous air quality.
Chemical off-gassing at petroleum storage facilities.
Toll booth workers breathing poison all day.
Parking garage attendants.
Inhaled heavy metal poisoning in garbage incineration, battery manufacturing, paint and solvent factories.
All Americans who inhale tiny particulate matter from auto-exhaust, the #1 poison in our air.

Where is the concern for these workers?

[Woodstock]

62. and where is the concern for people living in apartments?

Many of them live there because they can't afford houses. They are forced to breathe in smoke WHERE THEY LIVE. That includes babies, kids, pregnant women, sick people, all have to breathe in their neighbors' smoke 24/7.

See my story below of what happened to me once - I went almost a year breathing in toxic fumes/unable to open my windows.

[uncle ray]

53. i hate to say this

but the anti smoking laws are flawed in their simplicity, or more correctly their target.

they BAN SMOKING in public places. wrong approach. the correct approach to the problem is to establish air quality standards indoors in public places. that way the business owner, if he feels that a no smoking policy will kill his business, he may allow smoking, but it is entirely up to him to do so, and also entirely up to him to pay the thousands of dollars to install a quality air filtering system, so he can meet his air quality levels.

so the "easy" way, is for the business owner to simply ban smoking, but other viable options exist.

another option would be to tax business owners for the priviledge of allowing smoking. keep in mind the targets here are bars and restaurants. we already tax those who sell cigs, and alcohol.

[bleedingheart]

55. I worked for years in an office that allowed people to smoke at their desk

it smelled like an ashtray in the office and the windows did not open so there was no relief for us nonsmokers.

So one day I had enough of my one coworker's chainsmoking habits and during lunch I went to the mall and purchased incense sticks. I lit em up and lo and behold the little smoking chimney next door to me had a big freaking shit fit about the smell... the smell...how could she smell with all that disgusting smoke...

So the Vice President comes down to my office and asks me what I am doing...and I state.."If the smokers and make this place smell like an ashtray...I should surely be allowed to make my own smoke that is more appealing to me..."... he nodded and smiled and walked away... Two weeks later there were new rules...

1. no smoking
2. no burning of anything including candles/incense...

People can smoke all they want in bars...I don't go to them specifically because of the smoke...but not in the office.

[foo_bar]

57. the practical effect

is higher healthcare costs for smokers every time they freeze their asses in the cold. It's a little bit like needle exchange; if you push all the addicts underground, they die even faster.

On edit: what #53 said. The point is respiratory quality, not zero tolerance feelgoodism.

[Woodstock]

59. I once moved because my neighbor's smoke was in my apartment 24/7

He LIVED on his balcony and was a chain smoker. I couldn't open my windows at all. No fresh air. My A/C bills were sky high because I needed ventilation & it got hotter inside than outside with nothing on. And even with the windows shut all the time, his smoke still got inside my apartment. I appealed to the rental office & she said she was on my side, since she has asthma, but it just wasn't written into the lease that she could do anything about it. So I had to move away - but not until I breathed in toxic fumes day and night for the rest of my lease.

IMHO smoking should be banned in all apartments - there is just no way to protect the health of non-smokers in that close of quarters. Apartment building owners should realize they've got a big market that would flock to non-smoking apartments (and designating apartments as non-smoking is completely within the law.) Plus no more smoking damage/repairs (burns, fire, fumigating, etc.)

[Speed8098]

64. You know..........

I once lived in an apartment with an old old lady living downstairs. She must have been incontinent, because the smell was terrible. I couldn't open my windows, I couldn't even use the central air because the smell wafted through the ventilation system.

What do you think Woodstock. Can we ban all old incontinent people from apartment complexes. I mean the smell is sooo offensive.

Read the link in my earlier post. The W.H.O. has concluded that there are no adverse reactions to second hand smoke. Except maybe from the busy bodies who want to control everything everyone else does.

[shanti]

69. you have my sympathies

i used to live in the upper unit of an apt. building where the people below me smoked like chimney stacks. their secondhand smoke went right up into our bedrooms - yech!

ironically, i was "forced" to move because they said my 2 yr old (at the time) was "too noisy" on their ceiling.

[Terwilliger]

60. The American government long promoted one of its big businesses

the government should be tasked to deal with the problems that we face today

I don't think it's right to punish people who are made to be addicted to this lethal and addictive drug by giving them a chance to fix every once in a while, without assuring them provisions for being able to smoke.

[jonnyblitz]

63. I am an ex-smoker who doesn't care one way or the other.

I sympathize with the smoker more than I wish it to be banned everywhere. I know what it is like. My housemate smokes in the house and I don't complain. Of course I prefer not to be around it ever but quitting is easier said then done. I used to love my Marloboro Reds..sigh.

[K8-EEE]

98. Wow

I think your roommate is really inconsiderate to smoke in front of you....the Marlboro Reds would have killed you and besides they put money in the GOPs pockets...you are smart to quit.

[dawn]

67. I am against smoking bans.

I hate the smoking bans, and I don't smoke. People should be able to smoke in bars. I am all for smoking sections, or patios, but come on...some places don't even allow you to smoke in your own car!

Yes, I feel for the employees, but I still think smoking sections should be kept in bars and restaurants.

Smoking bans, drug bans, fast food legislation...I wish we Dems would leave this stuff alone. How can we argue against the rights being taken away by the Patriot Act when we support these bans?

I don't think the cons should be accusing liberals of controlling the world, however. They are doing a pretty good job of that themselves.

[101 Proof]

70. Well....I have allergies to cigarette smoke...

so I'd love to see smoking banned completely in all public places. I especially hate it when I'm trying to get into the student center and the main door is cluttered with smokers and I'm literally gagging when I'm trying to get into the building. :puke:

It makes me sick and I'd love to see it banned (no offense to any of you smokers out there).

That's just my 2 cents.

[LeahMira]

72. Only in the USA...

It is about the employees condition. Second hand smoke harms, so you shouldn't be able to shoot it everywhere where someone works, seems common sense.

I think it should be the decision of the restaurant or bar owner. People who don't want to be in smoky environments should patronize the no smoking places and people who want to smoke can patronize the places where they are allowed to smoke.

People who are job hunting can apply for jobs as they prefer also. There are plenty of places where you can see the waitstaff out back on their breaks smoking.

I do agree that the no smoking sections are a joke. The smoke and the smell does travel. But again, that should be the owner's decision.

Only in the USA is there such a fuss over smoking. The exhaust from cars and the pollution in the air does a lot more damage than smoking, IMO. Let people decide for themselves. If you're really so concerned about people's health, make the nicotine patches and gums and pills and such less expensive so it's cheaper to quit than it is to smoke.

.

[BonjourUSA]

83. I have a picture engraved in my memory

It was very funny (but awful in the same time) to watch in a French tv report, two fat women full up to their eyes with cholesterol raging on a poor smoker in a street of an American city. (I don't remember where)

[K8-EEE]

92. !

Oh yeah let's criminalize the fat people -- they shouldn't be allowed to breath either!

Frankly I think fast food is just as dangerous as the cigs but that is a personal choice -- somebody eating onion rings, the onion rings don't affect my thighs.

You smokers sure can rationalize

[PVnRT]

93. Many would disagree

Fast food encourages the growth of factory farms and quickie slaughterhouses that ignore safety regulations, both for their workers and for the meat that they use.

[K8-EEE]

99. Fast Food Is Disgusting...

And a health hazard as well. But it is just not the same as somebody blowing smoke in your face.

[sharkbait2]

105. Fast Food is a health Hazard to others!

Think about the children. If you parents are obese from a lifetime of eating McDonalds, chances are the children will be born with all kinds of health problems.

Yeah, let legislate fast food while we're at it. </sarcasm>

[Selwynn]

74. Second hand smoke does NOT harm

I have posted this about 5,000 times on these boards - there is no credible evidence that second hand smoke constitutes a significant health risk to anything.

I have posted an epa report, which I don't have at my fingertips now because I thought 5,000 times was enough, which concludes that most of the statements about second hand smoke are drastically distorted or misinformed. There is no significant demonstrable risk from second hand smoke, the only measurable risk in a normal, healthy person was less than a fraction of a percent - you have more risk from house dust than second hand smoke.

The reason why second hand smoke is such a hyped issue is because being against smoking is a "sexy" cause these days, and everyone's on board. Everyone knows that cigarette smoking elevates risk for the individual person, to greater or lesser degrees depending on how much you smoke. But being "against" smoking has basically just become the new "cause" of the age. And that's fine, but I wish that we would at least be intellectually honest and scientifically credible when we do that.

The scientific data just isn't there to support the idea that second hand smoke is a serious killer. I've read the epa report myself, and have been told it confirms a separate CDC report - I've also had the irony of having several doctors I've visited set the record straight about smoking in ways I wasn't expecting. Oh yes, of course smoking yourself does elevate your risk to things - but there are a lot of rumors out there that aren't based in much fact as well.

[PVnRT]

79. You do realize

that you are shouting at a brick wall, right? That nothing will happen other than people accusing you of being a freeper and promoting right-wing propaganda, right?

This is one of my huge pet peeves with the left. Agree with science when in suits your goals, but when it disagrees, by God, it must be wrong!

[K8-EEE]

90. Of Course It Does

Anybody who has ever spent the evening in a crowded club and left with your eyes stinging, had to wash your hair before bed, wash all your clothes, then coughed all the next morning -- plus I had a friend who went with me to see the pianist Ahmed Jamal at the late great Parisian Room here in L.A. and actually had an athsmatic fit induced by the air in the club.

I mean let's just use common sense, tobacco smoke is NOT healthy, and even if it was, it's annoying, downright aggressive, to those simply wanting to breath clean air.

[PVnRT]

91. And how about all that lovely smog

that hovers over L.A.? Should we outlaw cars so that you can get even more clean air?

[K8-EEE]

94. L.A.

Yes we should cut down on driving (my New Year's resolution I have a new subway pass) we should resist the GWB-ers "relaxing" EPA standards, etc. Definitely we should not be buying all those horrid SUVs and Humvees like our Gropinator Gov has!

I def will be buying a hybrid after this car.

Actually the air in L.A. is better now than when I was growing up in the 70s due to regulations that the GOPers are trying to get around, natch...

I would love to see a real progressive political leadership here that would develop green energy -- that is the future. I hate the current obsession with fossil fuel and the wars over it, it is the past, it's a finite resource.

[sharkbait2]

107. Overlegislating is a distinctily American epidemic

My theory is half the laws in America are driven by a fear of death and an eternel search for longevity (i.e. the fountain of youth).

If people like the thread starter had their way, everything that isn't nailed down and poses the remotest of threats would be legislated, banned, outlawed, penalized.

Personally, I prefer to indulge in life and live in relative freedom than live to be one hundred in a suffocating box of ridiculous laws. The irony is, even if K8-EEE were to achieve his/her utopia, he/she wouldn't necessarily live a longer life, or one free from disease or even have a happier existence here on earth.

[K8-EEE]

109. Eternal Life? LOL!!

Oh so, because both of us can get hit by a truck and die tomorrow I should have to *COUGH* have my airspace invaded with smoke??

OMG you guys have such an addict mentality it's no use even discussing it! The logic contortions/denial that addicts can go through is literally LOL funny, except for it's also sad.

Well statistics show that as smoking declines, the adult smoking population is getting less educated. Just like the more people watch Fox, the less they actually know/understand?

Frankly most people as adults are too smart to start smoking which is why the industry actively courts children and try to ingrain them with the "pleasure" of smoking.

Seriously you must LOVE GWB's Clear Skies plan!! It lets people stink up the air more, cuz, they want to, the rest of us just have to deal with it, right?

[Selwynn]

108. That's some great science there....

According to the CDC, AMJ, and the EPA, two reports of which I've personally read cover to cover ( because I was pretty skeptical myself) - there is no credible evidence to suggest any provable health risk from second hand smoke to an average healthy person. The possible elevated risk of LONG TERM ill effects was less than a fraction of one percent.

There are a lot of things that make me cough after wards, and many things that make my eyes burn that don't increase my risk of long term illness one bit.

But this is just one of those places were propaganda has been absolutely effective, and no one even listens to credible scientific research anymore.