America is cheezy!

[salinen]

I'm sick of this industrial/corporate culture. I fuc*ing hate seeing "Enquirer" type mags at the checkout. Every 3.27 blocks is another fuc*ing "Walmart/RiteAid/BestBuy/McDonalds. Advertisements are fake "testimonial" type endorsements or silly beyond fuc*ing belief. The news is fuc*ed. I don't want to hear about Kobe, Scott, Brittany, Jacko fucking ever again. Everywhere people are driving big fuc*ing bloated cars and trucks. Las fuc*ing Vegas is ugly. I'm sick of "support our troops" and American flags fuc*ing everywhere. The black and white "good vs. evil" bullshit is for people who can only hold one concept at a fuc*ing time. If you see a pretty place to have a picnic, there is always a "no fuc*ing trespassing" sign. People laugh too loud at dumb shit to get noticed.

I could go on.

The only thing I do enjoy and respect are the folks here at du. Without du, I'd probably go for the dirt box early.

[WilliamPitt]

1. Edit this to get rid of the swears or it's gonna get locked

Just fyi.

[drdigi420]

10. so sad

[patdem]

18. No Will...No swears in the Heading...but swearing in the body is now okay

The header rules now apply, but we can now swear in the body of our first post. I liked that transformation, though I seldom (never) post new posts, but just reply to others. I am gathering steam? Maybe-maybe not?

[WilliamPitt]

31. Ah

Thanks for the tip.

Fuck shit cock ass.

Aaaaaahhhhh...

[ComerPerro]

75. Everyone, may I have your attention please!!!

It has come to my attention that Will Pitt has now been updated on the rules about swearing in posts. He now knows that it is ok.

So, without any further ado, please allow me the pleasure of introducing the new, much more profane Will Pitt!!!!!!

<applause>


When I read this, it just seemed like a light was going on in your head. Sort of, "Ahh, so I can swear now... interesting..."

[Skidmore]

2. It is this type of cultural

ugly that makes other cultures cringe. Subtlety has never been this nation's forte. Many Americans don't ever learn to appreciate much in terms of other world views beyond that they learn in their own little burgs.

[Loonman]

3. Move out, then.

}(

[salinen]

5. Loon

I'd rather work toward change, if it's possible. But you may be correct.

[ret5hd]

4. It seems my wife and/or i go on this same tirade every week or so...

if it helps any, we agree 100%

on edit: except for the dirt box part. we're thinking of belize.

[KoKo]

6. American Culture is Dead! Someone wrote an article about it a couple

of months ago, I can't remember the link. But, the signs of "Sameness" are all around us, no matter where we go. Turn on the TV and it's the Same, turn on the Radio, it's the same. Hype, Hype, Hype. And very little that's worth bothering with. Strip Malls everywhere. Sometimes one doesn't even know which city one is in because so much is the same.

Those lucky enough to live in SanFrancisco, Boston, Charleston, etc. still have some architectural differences, but out in the suburbs, it's the same.

We will have to create a New Culture. Those of us who are sick of it.

Somehow we will. But when, I don't know. Don't see much changing or even much attention to it except in little corners like here, where we think about things all the time.

[drdigi420]

7. thats why i hate the suburbs

i miss living in midtown, where ppl could be themselves without giving a rat's ass what the neighbors think

[Selwynn]

8. I both agree and disagree

Basically, I pretty much agree with everything you've observed, however at the same time, I don't believe the most effective attitude in light of this observations is belligerent indignance. I really dislike what I consider to be corporate culture run amok, and I believe we could enjoy a healthier balance between business and society than we do now. I agree that the media in this country, and the things that many of Americans choose to fixed about, especially in its entertainment, is disappointing and often alienating to me. I'm frustrated by our tendency to turn "support our troops" into a meaningless jingle of a slogan instead of a battle cry for intense scrutiny of where/when and how our government uses and commits the men and woman of our US forces to action. I'm depressed by meaningless pseudo-patriotism which substitutes pasting an American flag to the bumper in the place of critical thought, genuine compassion, and honest engagement in American affairs. I'm tired of an attitude of "property ownership" that gets taken to such an extreme that I can't walk from here to there without breaking the law.

I could go on too.

The only difference between how I said it and how you said it is that what I said is not instantaneously offensive and encourages open dialog. I have the same frustrations that you do, and I choose not to leave as some suggest because I desire to see my homeland become what I believe it once aspired to be and still could be.

Have a nice day!
Sel

[salinen]

11. Thanks Sel

You have eloquence and a gentle approach. I explode occasionally.

[spindoctor]

9. Especially Wisconsin

nt

[Cooley Hurd]

22. Mmmmmm... cheese!

"Marge, I think I'm blind!"

[NJCher]

12. it's a trash culture--almost always has been

You belong to the counterculture. You probably always did belong to the counterculture. I know that's the case with me. I've almost always had contempt for this culture, if you want to call it that.

What the situation really is is that the mainstream culture has deteriorated to the point where it close to intolerable. Time to go further "underground." :)

What might make you feel better is to read about countercultures, especially the "psychology of." I can't think of any books off the top of my head but I'll bet there are plenty of DU-ers here who can.

And not to worry about exploding. We all do it from time to time. I encountered it Saturday. Here is a paragraph I wrote to a friend when I needed to vent:

While I went shopping, I was only filled with more contempt for this country and its citizens. From shop to shop, I overheard conversations--and this is from the clerks--about going to Paris or a mother who thought her 4 BR house wasn't big enough for one person (herself) and a dog. So she bought a new one. All I could think of was that so many of the world's citizens were living in poverty-level circumstances but here we have people with so much they can't think of anything else to do with their wealth than buy another house for themselves and their dog. When I was outside, I saw big SUVs driving down the street with parents dropping their kiddies off at the flicks or taking them to places like the ceramic shop where they could be "creative." One guy in a big SUV had to wait for someone while he did something (can't recall what) and the look of contempt on his face just knocked me over. How dare someone inconvenience him, take an extra moment of his time.

Oh, and the cigar-smoking jerks in the Mercedes SUVs. Oh man.

My friend responded:

Awful. Awful. My blood boils when I see those things. And down here, they are all over--especially in middle-to-upper-class areas. In fact, a few days ago, when I was walking, I did a count over-sized and regular-sized cars over the course of about 40 minutes. The "score" was almost 2 to 1, large-cars, until the very end of the walk. That was when I approached a main street, full of traffic. The regular cars almost caught up as I stood in place and counted, but then, when I turned around and continued to walk on a residential street, the big cars pulled way ahead again.

So you have plenty of company, if that means anything.


Cher

[economic justice]

13. Trash Culture?

"Oh, and the cigar-smoking jerks in the Mercedes SUVs. Oh man."

Is it the CIGAR?
Is it the MERCEDES?
Is it the SUV?

I don't quite understand the fact that some people have MORE is met with such disgust around here. I don't let my blood pressure rise because I see the above. To do so would be pretty elitist of ME to think MY way (95 Chevy, cigarettes) is the ONLY way. There is NOT and NEVER WILL BE a truly egalitarian society. Justice? That's different. But we don't arrive there by bashing people because of THEIR choice of lifestyle, however misguided WE THINK it might be. Just my opinion.

[patdem]

23. Honey, I do not envy anyone anything or else I must envy everything

It is not about MORE...I remember the first time I realy contemplated ENVY...and I realized I not only must want what that person HAS, but what it COST them to get there, and I realized I would NEVER pay the COST for his/her TOY.

NO...my anger is now that they not only have more than I have (back then it was a sports car and everyone else owned normal cars) they are robbing me of what is naturally mine...the air I breathe, the price I PAY for gasoline.

No suddenly the rich not only want what they have ... they want what is GOD's given right to ALL MEN. A healthy planet. THAT I AM ANGRY ABOUT!!!

[AromaticSocks]

38. Clean air is NOT a God given right

What if God hits the Earth with a huge comet? Clean air will not exist. You know what I mean?

[thebigidea]

39. God? A giant comet? You might as well worry about the Red Skull.

[AromaticSocks]

49. OMG! Not the Red Skull!!! Aheeeeeeeeeeeee

Seriously, If God gave it then she can take it away.

[thebigidea]

seriously, you should start worrying about Santa Claus' revenge too

[AromaticSocks]

58. But she mentioned "God given right" - not "santa clause given right"

BTW, I was not worrying I was asking a simple question.

Do you know what I mean?

[thebigidea]

63. you were the one worried about some biblical revenge scenario

quick, smash all the clay pots in your house! god told me to.

[AromaticSocks]

80. I'm not worried about ANYTHING

As was said in the original post: "A clean earth/air is a God given right". I say that a God given comet or other WMD will take away that right of a "clean Earth or clean air on Earth".

Please tell me you understand it now.

[thebigidea]

89. hard to comprehend someone concerned about Almighty God smiting via comet

[DebJ]

67. I suppose not when your name is Aromatic Socks, Ha!

but for the rest of us, it IS.

[AromaticSocks]

81. Thanks for the 50% understanding of my statement

Let me try to explain what is obvious to me...

If God gives us clean air and then she takes it away with a human killing comet which destroys the Earth then the clean air that was a right has been taken away by she that gave it to us.

Do really not see the problem with calling "clean air" a "God given right"? If not then I'll keep trying to explain the obvious.

[camero]

96. You could say that about all rights

Free speech: God takes away your voice through illness or injury.
Religion: Concept of hell, anyone?
Association: Jesus hung out with sinners.

But it does not give MAN the right to take it away. I would much rather that comet took away my right to clean air than by someone who "says" that God told him to do something.

That is the flaw in your argument. It is a god-given right.

[formernaderite]

24. the cultural elitists reign on this board

There seems to be alot of people who could be stereotyped as the cultural elite on this board. I kind of like the cheesiness of America...that's why we're not Europe. I happen to like diners, neon signs, fast fried food, cigarettes, and I keep a loaded weapon at home. I probably seem like the antithesis of the typical Greenie, but you'd be surprised. There are more of us, and we're just plain regular folks. I live in a working class neighborhood with alot of union folks and they drive SUV's. I have no car preference other than it being cheap and used. In a perfect world, I'd love to drive a fuel efficient four wheel drive pick-up. In a perfect world, I'd love to see the over-educated elite give the regular working folks a break and stop acting so condescending.

[RandomKoolzip]

45. How can anyone be "over-educated?" "Too smart?"

I'm sorry for having a desire for knowledge and culture- I didn't know that me reading books was offending you.

[camero]

70. Actually you can

Too much of anything is bad for you. Not that I detest culture, I have the same love of learning as you. But getting too smart can bring more worries with more neurosis and less foresight.

Case in point. We took Bush too lightly in 2000.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

87. Anti-Intellectualism

typical right-wing talking point. We don't need no education-wouldn't want an educated and informed populace. They actually might vote in their best interests that way!

[formernaderite]

100. Do you live in America?

I have no idea where you live...but if you think anti-intellectualism is right wing, than you must live in a different America. Are you saying the only people you've ever encountered who were left of center were highly educated? Of course you sound like someone who'd never get their hands dirty...you like the idea of a union, but not those in the union. First off, it's true I don't believe everyone needs a formal education. I wish we'd be a bit more like Europe in that sense...let's bring back apprentice programs and master tradesmen. I don't think that's anti-intellectual btw.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

102. Yes, I live in Boston

if you think anti-intellectualism is right wing, than you must live in a different America.
-No, the right attacks the left this way all the time and brainwashes people into thinking that all Dems are snooty and 'over-educated'. The Right would prefer a populace that lacks critical thinking skills so they won't see through the BS.

Are you saying the only people you've ever encountered who were left of center were highly educated?
-I'm a blue collar kid (father a Cambridge firefighter, mother a secretary, grandfather a 'trade unionist' and a long line of labor activists in the family).

Of course you sound like someone who'd never get their hands dirty...you like the idea of a union, but not those in the union.
-You got that from my one post? You must be psychic or something. But your psychic powers are a little rusty, pal. Worked my way through college bartending and waitressing. Worked organizing the service workers union in college as well. Yeah, I'm just some frou-frou limousine liberal. :eyes:

First off, it's true I don't believe everyone needs a formal education. I wish we'd be a bit more like Europe in that sense...let's bring back apprentice programs and master tradesmen. I don't think that's anti-intellectual btw.
-Nope, I agree trade schools are a good idea. The unfortunate part is there isn't much of an appreciation of the skill of a good craftsperson anymore. My uncles, cousins, and brothers-in-law work in building trades and ironworkers (strong union here in Mass). What would be a better idea is if the unskilled workers-the Walmart workers of the world-could be unionized.

[auburnblu]

106. Give working folks a break, surely you jest.

The best thing for a truly caring person, they must have a minimum of a Master's degree of course, to do, is attend a rally to support lower income folks. A great example would be the grocery employees in California. This shows solidarity. Then of course after the rally is over, post on here about how stupid trailer trash Americans are.

Now I wonder if the truly caring ever consider that the folks they love to look down on live in a trailer not by choice. Economic justice, Economic justice. Its great if you believe in it. Saying you want economic justice and looking down on someone for not being cultured and educated seems odd.

Sure America has its faults in culture sometimes, but I'll take a place that has created such divergent styles of music such as country and jazz over a place where the mantra is "you must assimilate".

[_Jumper_]

14. Name a nation with an ideal culture

American culture has its flaws but it is spreading around the world. What does that say about other cultures?

[AliceWonderland]

19. No, the problem is, this isn't American culture

...speaking as an immigrant. My vision of American culture involves Beats, jazz, Whitman, Ginsberg, O'Keefe, Twain, the Doors, lots of fun and radical political counterculture...the list goes on. There's nothing left anymore. I was astonished when I moved to NYC and found a Starbucks culture. I have no patience with "sure, American culture has flaws but look how much better we are then anyone else" arguments: they are not only arrogant, but they ignore the fact that this has nothing to do with your culture. Your culture, or so it seems to me, was a fascinating hodge-podge of weird, reckless, wild, creative elements... blues and radical politics and "melting pot" styles, often cutting edge... and now there's nothing but mass market, commercialized pap. That's why counterculture seems so key right now. I know the moment I see anyting remotely unique or bizarre or offensive or original or creative in a sea of strip malls and cancer tract houses, I want to seize on it.

[AromaticSocks]

41. What about the American wild west culture?

Pulling a pistol on those out of line and shooting up a meal of mule deer when hungry. The cowboy America sounds pretty good too ya know.

[info being]

47. Exactly, "our" culture is inauthentic

Memes are manufactured from the top and trickle down. That's not culture, that's brainwashing. Culture is grass-roots and evolutionary...the best stuff wins out, etc.

[patdem]

25. America has a bigger military budget than all other nations combined?

WOW...talk about influence. Of course we used to have a very vigorous middle class...when that is gone and we become more and more like Haiti..I wonder what the influence will be???

[economic justice]

33. Middle Class Myth

The United States has the largest "middle class" of any nation on this planet. Defining middle class is always a problem. But using the standards the Labor Department has used for 40 plus years -- the middle class is expanding and has since the early days of Bill Clinton.

[DebJ]

69. "four more years" would make myth into reality

[info being]

46. Every nation's culture beats ours

I take it you haven't done much travelling?

[economic justice]

50. Iraq?

Afghanistan? North Korea? Haiti? Ever try to just say "hello" to someone in France? There's good and bad to all cultures. To say ALL other cultures are "better" than American culture is a bit, ih, radical.

[KFC]

52. Especially Nigeria

http://www.theonion.com/onion3629/nigeria_counterpoint.html

Probably North Korea too.

[radwriter0555]

15. So be like ME and move to MEXICO... that's my plan... get out of

this corporate sponsored ghetto.

[economic justice]

17. Wow.

"So be like ME and move to MEXICO... that's my plan... get out of this corporate sponsored ghetto."

Are you TRYING to give Rush Limbaugh a post to read to "prove" that DU "hates America"???? Frankly, if you feel that America is a "ghetto" I think yesterday was too late for you to leave. Sounds like you'll be much happier in....???....Mexico???

[tabasco]

21. Who gives a crap what Rush Limbaugh thinks??

I sure as hell don't, and that includes his witless listeners.

[economic justice]

26. I don't either

Let me explain...

So many here at DU say that Limbugh "lies" when he says that many on DU HATE AMERICA. I was simply pointing out that the post above says WHAT? It clearly states: I HATE America. That's fine - it's their opinion. But, let's not act all innocent as if nobody here hates America. There are a SLEW of them who do. (And aren't bashful about telling us).

[patdem]

28. America...what America...McAmerica? That America

to hate McAmerica is to be the most patriotic human being on the face of the United States. To hate McAmerica or Wal-MAmerica is to be Patriotic the same way Jefferson fought King George....no...to fight to make America better is NEVER Un-American....sorry you lose!...I just do not want to lose the America I grew up in.

That America that was about dissent, anti-war songs, and the people who cared about PEOPLE and not the Corporate message...GET OVER IT!

[economic justice]

30. Get over it?

Hate McAmerica? That's a pretty damn hateful thing right there if you ask me! You may - or may not - like what the United States has become, but you either hate - or not - what it IS. Hate is a strong term. To change policy and to want to change directions...that's another deal entirely. But to HATE "McAmerica" and say that all you described that you like simply doesn't exist anymore? That's a stretch. That's hysterical and hyperventilation.

[jokerman93]

104. I didn't see Hate in there

Sounds like futility, frustration, despair, resentment. I'll bet the guy loves America and is so disgusted with the careless despoiling of the American soul he sees happening everywhere around us, maybe he can't stand to watch something so precious as America being robbed of its soul, and so he let's out with a mighty yawp, and turns shamefully away like Whitman might have done.

But maybe I'm read into it...

[KFC]

40. Nothing is cheesy in Mexico

Nope, not at all. And there are no ghettos in Mexico.

I hear Mexico City is crime free.

[blondeatlast]

83. And the air is sparkling clean, I might add . . .

[DebJ]

72. oops remember our corporations are moving their ghettos to Mexico! and

to the rest of the world, as well!

[MacCovern]

16. I'm thinking of moving to Vegas!

and I love my bloated Lincoln Town Car. It gets great gas mileage compared to SUVs.

On the other hand, the USA is becoming a generic land almost everywhere you turn with so many super center retailers and franchise restaurants everywhere.

But if you left the USA where would you go?

[the populist]

20. consumer culture is taking over the world...

it's Kobe/Jacko/Laci, ignorance, falling into stereotypes which are becoming more and more a reality (the Homer Simpson)...

it's just sad really.

Even "old Europe" is becoming polluted.

[populistmom]

71. Welcome to DU!

Love the name!!! :)

[Imajika]

27. If you think America is so cheezy...

...then leave. Pack up and head out. Pick a new country with a level of cheeziness you can tolerate, and go there.

"I'm sick of this industrial/corporate culture."

You can either try to change it, deal with it, or leave. I can tell you that nothing is going to change for quite some time, so your down to dealing with it, or finding a new place to live.

"I fuc*ing hate seeing 'Enquirer' type mags at the checkout."

Why do you care what other people enjoy reading? Do I think the Enquirer is stupid? Yes, but I certainly don't get wound up because lots of people enjoy reading ridiculous gossip rags. Do you think they don't read this kind of stuff anywhere else?

"Every 3.27 blocks is anotherfuc*ing 'Walmart/RiteAid/BestBuy/McDonalds.'"

So? People shop at Walmart, RiteAid and BestBuy, and they eat at McDonalds. What's it to ya? Go shop at the places you like, and stop whining about what other people do.

"I don't want to hear about Kobe, Scott, Brittany, Jacko fucking ever again."

Then don't watch or read about it. You've obviously got the Internet, you can read whatever news you want. Who cares what other people like to watch or read.

"Everywhere people are driving big fuc*ing bloated cars and trucks."

Ya, me too. What's it to ya? I can afford it, have a home in the mountains, and use a big fuc*ing SUV to get around in the winter. You don't like it? Too bad.

"Las fuc*ing Vegas is ugly."

Don't go.

"I'm sick of 'support our troops' and American flags fuc*ing everywhere."

What do you care if other people want to show their support for "our troops" and display the American flag. Yeah, that stuff gets a bit silly at times, but so what? You display whatever you like, and leave the rest of us alone.

"The black and white 'good vs. evil' bullshit is for people who can only hold one concept at a fuc*ing time."

I basically agree with you here, but your not going to get anywhere bashing people who think this way. I'd say most people the world over basically think in this sort of simplistic manner.

"If you see a pretty place to have a picnic, there is always a 'no fuc*ing trespassing' sign."

So how about we eliminate private property so you can picnic anywhere you want?

"People laugh too loud at dumb shit to get noticed."

True.

"The only thing I do enjoy and respect are the folks here at du. Without du, I'd probably go for the dirt box early."

It sounds to me like you really just detest Americans. If you hate the culture of the US and its people so much, just move away to a place you can tolerate.

Imajika

[economic justice]

29. You Nailed It.......

Sad that so many spend so much time angry at what other people like or don't like. And people wonder why we get rapped for "hating America"??

[thebigidea]

32. I love people who speak in terms of "we" - presumptuousness is a gas!

[economic justice]

34. Uh....HELLO???

Where are we????

I meant DU.....you know.....where we are writing all of this? Where people slam us for "hating America"???

[thebigidea]

35. its just so great that you've taken it upon yourself to speak for us

your vigilance and dedication to catering to Rush Limbaugh's taste is duly noted, citizen!

My goodness! What will an insane junkie make of my post?

[economic justice]

54. Good try

When YOU say "People in the world think we're crazy." Who do YOU mean? Do YOU speak for everyone in the United States? If you said the above (and you have said similar things I am sure hundreds of thousands of times in your life) you know what you mean and others DO TO. Why turn an argument into a phony semantical argument?

[thebigidea]

79. Because I am a hypocrite, and proud of it!

"When YOU say "People in the world think we're crazy.""

When do I say that?

"Why turn an argument into a phony semantical argument?"

Because Count Korzybski gives me kickback from beyond the grave.

[BigDaddyLove]

51. If by 'we' he/she meant 'Democrats'..................

then I can identify with the statements.

I am a Democrat. I don't hate America. Sorry.

There are quite a few people here who do seem to hate America (which they are free to do); it seems like more and more one must conform to this hatred to fit in with the DU community and if you don't have a low enough regard for this country then your allegiance to the left is somehow questionable.

When Rush and others refer to 'Hate America Firsters', I used to think it was just hyperbole used to piss the left off, but now I see that a lot of people feel just that way and I don't wish to be counted among their ranks.

[thebigidea]

53. that's right, DU... CONFORMITY OF HATRED!

every one please synchronoize their hate-beams on my mark... 5... 4... 3... 2... 1.... HATE!

hooboy. they are going to hafta do better than this "hate/anger" nonsense this year.

[BigDaddyLove]

55. Wow, you're quick........

Who are you referring to as 'they'?

[economic justice]

57. LOL!!!!!!!!

Yeah.....WHO is "they" linguistics prof?

[thebigidea]

62. its a conspiracy of freedom-haters!

"they" are all those who demand freedom fries instead of stuffing, instead of potatoes, instead of oxygen.

[thebigidea]

60. all those that love America, all those that aren't unified by HATRED

hatred for pink, snuggly bunny wabbits... HATRED for mom's atrocious apple pie... hatred for grandma's love... hatred for the warmth, the wit, the wisdom of Alan Colmes...

[BigDaddyLove]

68. A simple answer would have sufficed..............

I would like to know who you mean by 'they', but I can't understand you when you're not medicated.

It seemed to me that you were using 'they' as a euphemism for 'Republicans', and were further intimating that I was one of 'them'. If this is indeed the case, then this is what I'm talking about (please forgive me if I'm wrong).

I agreed with economic justice because I too notice that there is a low opinion of America at DU, and I disagree with it....doesn't make me a Republican, doesn't make me the enemy; I'm just another Democrat like everyone else here.

[thebigidea]

74. All those that hate freedom are the enemy!

all those that talk about enemies are the enemy!

America is good and kind and low in traffic accidents! Hurray for Gamera, the friend of all children! I mean, America! My argument is so strong and I'm so smug, I'm going to make snide comments about medication! Hurray for freedom! HURRAY FOR AMERICA! Hip hip, HOORAY!

"and were further intimating that I was one of 'them'"

should I make some swell comment about you needing medication for that demented paranoia?

"I too notice that there is a low opinion of America at DU,"

I hope you are keeping a spreadsheet or something, I expect a report on my desk concerning these treasonous opinions by morning. I have in my hand a list of individuals who do not sing the "sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing" verse loud enough.

[economic justice]

56. Thank you

You said it better than I. Good post.

[thebigidea]

64. we should thank you instead, for showing us the true meaning of christmas

[RandomKoolzip]

76. Thank you, thebigidea, for making us laugh about love...again.

n/t

[Imajika]

37. economic justice

"Sad that so many spend so much time angry at what other people like or don't like."

It is sad. It is the kind of thing religious nuts run around doing. You could envision a similar post from Jerry Fallwell or Pat Robertson, only the complaints would be different. They would complain about people watching skin flicks, having sex, smoking, drinking, girls wearing bikini's on the beach, etc, etc.

I say, do what you want, and leave the rest of us alone. I find people who bitch and whine about the personal choices others make to be far more annoying than anything the original poster included on his/her "hate" list.

"And people wonder why we get rapped for 'hating America'??"

Well, ofcourse I am sure you'd agree that most Democrats and the vast majority of Americans on the left of the political spectrum do love their country and their fellow citizens. Saying that, there are indeed enough leftists, usually fringe types representing causes which will never be supported by the majority, whom at heart truly do hate the USA and Americans in general. Sadly, those types are loud, obnoxious and draw attention to everything and everyone they associate themselves with. The "blame America" first tag has stuck to our party, and the venom included in the orginal post of this thread is part of the reason why.

Imajika

[economic justice]

59. Again, I couldn't have said it better. Thanks for being here! <eom>

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AromaticSocks]

36. Why not move?

Cyber is ok for a while but you need sunlight. It's obvious the people around you don't share your values so I'd either get them to respect and practice your values or move and find those that do respect and practice your values.

Or stay here and complain...

[bedtimeforbonzo]

42. one big trailer park

no wonder the world scoffs at us.

[AromaticSocks]

43. Is this one of those "I hate America" posts I read about?

I heard it was a myth by the VRWC press. Tell me it's not true!

[formernaderite]

101. what's vrwc press?

I'm pretty new here...what does vrwc press mean? I'm going to have to start developing a cheat sheet for all the codes people use.

[info being]

44. I agree 100%

You have to be almost militant to fight off this shit and hang on to at least some sense of sanity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. This isn't about hating America

it's about hating what corporations have done to America.

It used to be that when you traveled around the country, every region looked different, not only in the physical features, but in the local architecture, cuisine, slang, music, what have you. You can still see this if you look at the older parts of American cities. The pre-WWII neighborhoods in Minneapolis do NOT look like the ones in Portland or the ones in Atlanta or the ones in Los Angeles or the ones in New Haven, Connecticut.

Now everyone is building the same trophy houses (eliminating the starter homes that used to give families a leg up), and local businesses are being destroyed by the same mega-corporations putting up the same big box stores in every community. Thanks to Clear Channel radio, each city even sounds the same.

You can't tell whether you're in the suburbs of Minneapolis, Portland, Atlanta, Los Angeles, or New Haven unless you check out the vegetation, look for the presence of mountains or the ocean, or anything but the architecture.

Worst of all, this kind of development is unsustainable. Did you know that Las Vegas is using water at 130% of sustainable levels? (That's from their own local magazine, which I happened to find in a doctor's office.) Do you know how much farmland and wildlife habitat is being paved over every year?

Don't give me "that's what the people want." That's what the purveyors of shlock always say. Are you going to tell me that in 1999 there were suddenly riots in the streets demanding WWF wrestling on three channels and constant promotion of the "wrestlers" in every media outlet? Did the public write angry letters to the editor demanding that their environment be uglified? Did they beg Clear Channel to come in and buy all the radio stations in their town so that they would never hear anything original or challenging again?

To me it seems more that Americans are genuinely ignorant of the alternatives, especially since we have now seen three generations grow up in suburbia, completely surrounded by this fake culture and taught to hate and fear the city. They don't see the ugliness any more than fish are aware of being wet, because it's all they know.

[economic justice]

73. Interesting take

and much of what you said is TRUE. However, many people prefer living in the suburbs. People from all over the world come here and MARVEL at the suburbs you seem to despise so much. Not many men wear hats like in the forties, those who do shouldn't say that the fact everyone now looks alike has lost their taste and only the hat wearers have the "key" to right and wrong. To you, the burbs are "bad"...to some the burbs are "good". Does one have the corner on virtue? I think not. Though, with that said, much of what you said I BELIEVE to be true.

[Imajika]

77. Nonsense

Well written, but complete nonsense.

"It used to be that when you traveled around the country, every region looked different, not only in the physical features, but in the local architecture, cuisine, slang, music, what have you."

Yes, that was because the information age had not arrived. Now everyone can see what everyone else has and does immediately. Localities and regions mean less now because we are interconnected. And this phenomena is spreading accross borders. I spend a good deal of my time in Asian nations that once were exotic and absolutely different than the West. Now that is no longer true. People keep some of their culture, but now how the access and means to absorb that which they like about others. I hate seeing McDonalds springing up everywhere, but such is life. People want McDonalds whether we wish to admit it or not.

"and local businesses are being destroyed by the same mega-corporations putting up the same big box stores in every community."

I hear this whining about Walmart and big chains like it all the time. Bottom line, Walmart has everything people need in one place. It is just more popular than little local businesses. Walmart can undercut them pricewise, and have most everything people need in one spot. I am sorry to see Mom and Pop stores go, but I, like most people, will go where I can what I need at a good price. Bemoan this if you want, but that is life.

"Worst of all, this kind of development is unsustainable."

You don't know that. Nor do you know how people will adapt. At one time the "Population Bomb" theory had people believing the rapid increase in human beings on the planet would lead to our doom - most people would agree that this theory which was all the rage a few decades ago was horsemanure.

"Don't give me 'that's what the people want.'"

It is what the people want. They want cable TV, fast food, SUV's, gossip magazines, etc, etc. And they don't just want it here in the US, they want it everywhere.

"Are you going to tell me that in 1999 there were suddenly riots in the streets demanding WWF wrestling on three channels and constant promotion of the 'wrestlers' in every media outlet?"

This is just silly. There doesn't have to be riots in the streets to prove people want something. If people in say..Pittsburgh, PA didn't want to watch the WWF, the ratings for channels playing this sort of stuff in Pittsburgh would be awful. The WWF is popular. I think it is silly and I can't understand why anyone would watch it, but people do like it and who am I - or you - to complain about it.

"Did the public write angry letters to the editor demanding that their environment be uglified?"

Huh? People will tolerate the environment being "uglified" so long as they get something they deem more satisfying at the time. That is human nature, that is just the way it is. And if/when people find that losing the beautiful environment in their area was a mistake, they would vote for candidates who promise to do something about it.

"To me it seems more that Americans are genuinely ignorant of the alternatives, especially since we have now seen three generations grow up in suburbia, completely surrounded by this fake culture and taught to hate and fear the city."

Oh please. Taught to hate and fear the city? So you like the city and are bitching and moaning because many people don't want to live there? How ridiculous. I don't want to live in the city. I find the outerlying suburbs are a better place to live. You go live in a city, and I will stay in the suburbs.

Imajika

[Kathy in Cambridge]

82. Happy to live in a city

there are limits on development here in my city and all the Walmarts are in suburban-sprawl land.

I enjoy supporting my small local businesses. Entrepreneurship is the backbone of this country, and small and medium-sized businesses employ more Americans than large multi-nationals that are sending more and more jobs overseas.

So, enjoy shopping in your strip mall hell. I'll keep patronizing my local butcher, fruit market and non-chain clothing stores.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. Definitely taught to hate and fear the city

First of all, the local newscasts portray the city as the place where nothing happens except crime and fires.

Second, one of the spurs to the growth of the suburbs was racism, particularly up through the mid 1960s. You've heard of blockbusting? Many third generation suburbanites are the grandchildren of people who "fled" because some real estate agent came through their neighborhood saying "The Negros are coming! The Negros are coming! Sell before your property values go down!"

Sure, the property values went down, as they always do when a lot of people in the same area try to sell their houses at once.

Anyway, a large number of suburbanites across the country are there because the idea of middle-class African-Americans moving into their neighborhood panicked them. So yes, they hate and fear the city as the place where all those dark-skinned people live, and as soon as their suburb starts to gain a non-white population, they up and move farther out.

Third, the city gets remodeled and destroyed for the convenience of suburbanites. Why are there massive freeways running through most major American cities, subjecting people to extra noise and pollution and destroying neighborhoods and incidentally separating "good" neighborhoods from "bad" ones?

It isn't so that citydwellers can go grocery shopping, which most of them do in their won neighborhoods anyway. It's for the convenience of suburbanites who for reasons I will never fathom live in oversized, overpriced houses on what used to be good farmland or wildlife habitat, purposely move into places where they will be forced to drive everywhere, and then have the nerve to complain about traffic (when they're the ones who caused it in the first place) and their long commutes and demand that more of the city and inner suburbs be destroyed to make room for their cars.

What the suburbanites' freeways have done to Minneapolis in the past thirty years is sheer vandalism. The way the big box corporations have imposed their suburban building patterns on the poor neighborhoods of the city in the past twenty years is another form of vandalism. Note that they don't put up tacky buildings with block-sized parking lots in affluent areas, only in poor areas, making the areas even uglier than they were before.

This outer suburban lifestyle has been promoted by government policies and subsidies and portrayed as "the good life" on TV and in movies for fifty years. The large corporations love it because they have free reign to build their big box stores and massive parking lots.

About 1/3 of the country lives in suburbs, and kids grow up without ever setting foot in the city that their suburb feeds off of, because the corporations supply everything they supposedly "need"--except a non-corporate experience, the freedom to explore their neighborhood on their own instead of being chauffeured everywhere, and the experience of growing up in a real community.

They're convinced that suburbs are the only way to live in the same way that people who have never set foot outside the United States fondly imagine that it's the greatest country in the world in every respect.

[dawn]

98. Asia and McDonald's

You are so right about that. Go into any McDonald's in Asia, or Europe for that matter, and you'll mostly see locals eating in there.

[PSR40004]

61. If I truely felt this way I'd move...

But where else has it his good :)

[Skittles]

78. are you one of those

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN LEAVE types? You know, the kind who think IMPROVING AMERICA is, well, NOT AN OPTION ???

[DebJ]

65. Do what we do....go to Borders or Barnes and Noble. Turn off the tube

except CSPAN (where you hear candidates words verbatim and not the 'spin' crap.) Go to your favorite candidates website, download all their policy statements (I just printed all of Deans). Really learn all the issues. Look at the oppositions' policies. Then go out and campaign for your candidate....don't just SIT there, do something positive with your life. Make a difference. One person can make a difference. The world will always be filled with smut and cheap thrills. All you have to do is ignore it by DOING something positive. Volunteer to coach a kids' team for your favorite sport, preferably in an inner-city environment. (My fiance and our friends teach in such an environment....special ed, no less!) Suddenly, McDonald's won't bother you...because you will see the really tough side of life. You can't make a difference for everyone or even for most of these kids, but if you reach just one or two, you could save a life, and that life can go on and make a difference, too, inspired by YOUR example. Most days the teachers I socialize with are frustrated or a bit down by lack of progress with these kids, but they never give up nor lose their optimism....and after 19 years of coaching sports and teaching, it seems not a month goes by that we don't run into some former student who is now responding to those efforts. One became a teacher himself; three star basketball players. GET INVOLVED. DO SOMETHING POSITIVE. DON'T GIVE UP. The American Revolution looked very hopeless quite often....we won because we persisted.

[salinen]

85. I would have never expected the firestorm

from my original post. I appreciate all the responses. What I think I'll take away from this is somewhere between working to live with the environment as it is, and also putting effort into making small changes in my local setting. The possibility of leaving the country is always an option. To me America is the place where big changes can happen. So what is now is not necessarily what will be, or should be.

[NJCher]

84. Oh yeah? Everybody wants McDonald's?

Not these people:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/mcdonalds082702.cfm

And Imajika, your line about you can afford to drive an SUV so you do shows a lack of concern about what these things have done to the quality of air. The air is a resource we all have to share. I don't understand why you think you have a right to put outrageous amounts of pollution into the air just because you can "afford it."



Cher

[Kathy in Cambridge]

86. Amen, Sistah

My sister-in-law has a bumpersticker that says "Your Gas-Guzzling Luxury is More Important Than My Child's Air".

Pretty much sums up the attitudes of SUV drivers like Imajika.

I love when the gas prices go up and these idiots have to fork out $75 to fill up their tanks.

[Deja Q]

88. Cheezy? Or pathetic?

Seems more pathetic. :-(

[K8-EEE]

90. Pop Culture Is The Same Everywhere

I can relate to a lot of what you posted. But we have to make our own reality in that sense....find people who feel the way you do and make yours.

I have to admit I love to read The Enquirer in the checkout stands!

Hey check out my local music place, it is about as non-commercial as it gets...www.kulakswoodshed.com, live music 7 nights a week free (donations gladly accepted.) This place is down the street from my house and I have met the coolest people there.

[jpgray]

93. Definitely. British celebrity tabloids put ours to shame (nt)

[Cocoa]

91. you can avoid a lot of this stuff

you don't even have to kill your TV, you can just keep it on C-span. That gets rid of Michael and the others.

And you can shop at a store that doesn't have those rags.

Don't go to Vegas. That's not really America anyway.

There are places without a lot of flag waving. I live in one. And there are places with a lot of parks, I used to live in one.

And we are pretty free to move around in America, we have a lot of choices.

And I kind of like some of the cheese. :-)

[WillyBrandt]

92. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ABROAD?

It's just as bad. It's worse. They've got their own types of cheeze, often as nasty.

Once you scratch the surface of any culture you get all sorts of banal crap.

Let me tell you friend: live abroad. The exotic becomes the excrable very quickly. We are alone in neither greatness or mediocrity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. Yes, I've lived in Japan

and their pop culture can be pretty low-class, although in certain areas, such as manga, there's a huge grassroots subculture of do-it-yourselfers.

But they have not gone completely corporate, and some of the seemingly modern commercial aspects of their culture, such as karaoke, are merely updated versions of traditional practices. (It has long been customary to ask party guests to sing.)

[dawn]

97. I love my country, but I can see your point.

Sometimes I do tire of "McCulture." I find that I feel that way the most when I get home from traveling. But then again, when I am overseas, I miss so many things about home. And yeah, alot of the things I miss sometimes fall under the "McCulture" umbrella -- convenience, big supermarkets, etc. (ok, not Wal-Mart.....)

I agree with the poster that said when you are a part of the counterculture, it is hard to not be driven crazy by any normal culture. I found it to be that way everywhere. I moved from the U.S. to England in the mid nineties during an extended break from college. I found that I also disliked many things about living in Britain.

One thing I do find here at home that I don't overseas is that we sometimes aren't too happy with what we have. I feel that we can be way too neurotic about things. And I don't really like the "live to work" mantra that is the Puritan work ethic. I'd much prefer a German 35-hour work week and a European "work to live" attitude.

I don't think this makes much sense, but what I am trying to say is that I think you can be at peace anywhere you live. I think our country is definitely going the wrong way politically and economically, and we must try to change that, but all in all, I love living here.

[MrPrax]

99. Another Freep?

"Without du, I'd probably go for the dirt box early."???
seeing "Enquirer" type mags nobody here reads it?

Anyone that hates ' Kobe, Scott, Brittany, Jacko fucking ever again.'...knows it crap so why bother about Media?

R U being ironic?

[populistmom]

103. Do regions even have anything different or unique anymore?

I'm not a big traveller, but in the past few years I've been in CT, NY, NH, MA, VT, PA, OH, IN, IL, IO, NE, NJ, DE, MD, and VA, and they all look the same. The same Walmart megastore, the same f*cking Applesbees, the same JC Penny mall hell. Sure, perhaps the attitudes of people can be a "little" diferent region to region, but overall, it's all one big sanitized mess of plastic fakeness.

[TankLV]

105. Now wait a minute, fella/girlfriend! I live in Las Vegas!

Where do you live? - IT'S ugly! (sarcasm off)

Have you ever driven down the strip? Seen the light show from the hills surrounding the valley or above the 10th floor? Have you really looked? Been to Red Rock? Lake Mead? Green Valley? Summerlin? Downtown?

Seen our many award winning libraries/high schools/civic buildings? Clark County government center? Bellagio? Paris? Allidin? Federal Court building? Stratesphere Tower?

I've lived in lot's of places, visited countless others, and I can say that there is not one place that I didn't find countless visions of beauty - almost breathless beauty.

Dixon, CA. Honolulu. Buffalo. Syracuse. San Francisco. Houston. New York. Lake Tahoe. These come readily to mind. They are all wonderfully beautiful places to see/visit/live. I'm sure others here can name many more, as could I.

The point is, if you look for ugly - you find ugly.

But if you look for beauty, you'll never cease to be amazed at the beauty that is around us.

Way to win friends and influence people!

Thanx.