MOVE ON BACKS DOWN!!!!! Dang it anyway!

[Red State Rebel]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=3&u=/nm/20040106/od_nm/politics_hitler_dc

I can't believe they are "sorry" the ads got onto their site....someone needs to grow a pair.

[Skinner]

1. I think we should cut moveon some slack here.

I have never been a big fan of the Bush=Hitler comparisons either. Personally, I think they make us look shrill and irrational. There are so many much more legitimate ways to attack Bush.

They are probably the most effective liberal activist website on the Internet, by far. They have nothing to gain by actively associating themselves with this type of thinking, and the liberal cause has nothing to gain by embracing it.

I think MoveOn did the right thing. I guess I need to grow a pair as well.

[Red State Rebel]

2. I know...it's just frustrating seeing us get slapped down constantly...

Just venting....:)

[drdigi420]

11. I disagree

The Republicans gained plenty by comparing Hillary Clinton to Hitler. Have we all forgotten the 'Hitlery' ads and spew?

Bush has actual family ties to the financing of the Nazi war machine through Prescott Bush and the Union Banking Corporation.

The only difference I see is the Holocaust, which will be happening here soon under Bush. Just replace 'jews' with 'liberals'.

There is a PILE of similarities between Bush and Hitler, many many many many more than there ever were between Hillary and Hitler, and yet, in grand Democratic fashion, the back-down occured.

It's time we stopped backing down. The Republicans didn't lose any votes trying to turn Hillary into Hitler, why shuold the Dems avoid mentioning the strong case that Bush is very similar to Hitler in both genetics and policy.

[Kanary]

14. *My* frustration

"The only difference I see is the Holocaust, which will be happening here soon under Bush. Just replace
'jews' with 'liberals'."

What really gets me is that so many "progressives" don't see what is ALREADY happening... it's the poor folk who are sucessfully being targeted. It just isn't a very popular issue, and doesn't get a lot of attention here, but it is already happening.

So, you can get busy and work on this issue, or ignore it and keep thinking you're the first target.

Kanary

[NV1962]

15. EXACTLY! - n/t

[bryant69]

16. Yeah

But is the point of our efforts to help you feel manly? To give you and those who feel like you the opportunity to vent your anger?

I might be wrong, but I thought the point was to get President Bush out of the white house by electing a Democrat.

Comparing President Bush to Hitler pushes us further away from accomplishing that goal; Moveon did the right thing.

It's not it's hard to find other things to attack the Bush administration on, more rational things that will draw others to our cause.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NV1962]

24. (self-removed comment)

(I moved my comment to a new topic)

[lfairban]

45. Some B* supporters are getting overly sensitive about the . . .

. . . Bush family past ties to the Nazis.

I have collected links about Prescott Bush and his dealings with the Nazis. You can find them here:
http://home.columbus.rr.com/lfairban/Pages/Bush.html#Bush_Family

[Must_B_Free]

36. Don;t blame Us, Blame Bush

we didn't make him act in methods similar to Hitler. IUt was his own Hitler similar actions, tactics and sentiments that make the comparison completely natural.

It is unnatural NOT to compare Bush to Hitler.

[Sir_Shrek]

3. I'm sorry to see they backed down...

...but really, I think those ads would've had quite the opposite effect.

[arcane1]

4. "Hitlery", "feminazis"....

once again the double standard prevails... sigh...

[LatteLib]

5. While apologies are being issued

Ed Gillespie could grow a pair and apologize on behalf of the Republican party for the attacks they orchestrated during the campaign of Max Cleland by associating him and his image with Osama Bin Ladin and Saddam Hussein as well as the same type of ad attacks against Daschle.
It seems like this type of thing is only wrong if it happens by Democrats and that is a double standard that needs to be addressed.

[Skittles]

8. I am really disappointed

to see a WOMAN use such a sexist, outdated expression as GROW A PAIR.

[drdigi420]

13. I am dissapointed to see such sensitivity to

a silly figure of speech.

We are supposed to be LIBERALS, not LITERALS.

[Skittles]

31. SILLY

I FIND OUTDATED, DEMEANING FIGURES OF SPEECH OFFENSIVE, NOT SILLY. Expressions like this pepetuate RIDICULOUS STEROTYPES.

[tom_paine]

Whups, duplicate post

[tom_paine]

9. Totalitarians NEVER apologize

As the members of the naturally superior Imperial Rulers, they don't have to.

:puke: :puke:

Sad but true.

[Bushknew]

22. THANK YOU, Republicans liken Democrats as

terrorist appeasers, terrorists or to terrorists figures all the time, and we
just take it on the chin.

Fight back god damn it, fight back.

[Indiana Democrat]

40. Hi...

...Brother! :)

[rumguy]

6. I don't see it as backing down. Yet still, what the rethugs did is moronic

They employ the shrillest rhetoric possible when attacking us - we all know the words they slander us with. Yet they have a fit when one person submits an ad in a contest. These ads were for moveon members, who had passwords and who viewed and then voted on the submissions - the ad in question would never have made it to the finals. It's all more smoke and mirrors from the rethugs.

But hey, it will get more people visiting the moveon site to see the excellent ads that are now posted as the finalists. These are the ads that are available for the general public to view...

[Silverhair]

42. That wasn't why they were screaming.

They wanted to attract attention to the ad. They even copied it and have shown it themselves. THEY WANT PEOPLE TO SEE IT!!!! They want people to see it and associate it with Democrats in general.

The ad was an over-the-top, hysterical, the-sky-is-falling, dishonest piece of crap. And it was easily seen as such by any but the rabid Bush haters. (This is what I mean by allowing hatred to cloud reason.) So the ad helped paint Democrats in general in the same terms as the ad.

So the ad made much of the base feel great, and chased off some centerist voters. That was the real world result.

[Skittles]

7. grow a pair?

What the f*** does that mean? Surely you don't mean to imply that only MEN have courage? May I point out that our cowardly piece of shit "PRESIDENT" already "has a pair" ????????????????????????

[Red State Rebel]

10. Explanation....

There is a difference between having a pair and having A PAIR!!!

Gender has nothing to do with it.....

[Skittles]

33. BULLSHIT

the origination of this disgusting expression HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH GENDER. FIND A DIFFERENT EXPRESSION.

[drdigi420]

12. Why so reactionary to a figure of speech?

My beautiful petite fiancee has bigger balls than a lot of men. It's a figure of speech.

Do you think people mean harm to actors when they say to 'break a leg'?

[Kanary]

17. Geeeez, guys!

We went through all this over 30 years ago! Yes, sexist "figures of speech" have a derogatory effect on women. I know sexism is a problem here on DU, but can't we be willing to drop a few of the more irritating terms? Are you that attached to them? :)

What does it hurt you to change terms?

Kanary

[Red State Rebel]

21. Ummm, I'm a Female....

[Skittles]

34. THANK YOU KANARY

it's like they can't come up with a different expression and THAT IS PATHETIC

[Skittles]

32. Unless your fiancee is a DRAG QUEEN

SHE HAS NO BALLS; IF SHE IS TOUGH AND COURAGOUS THAT JUST PROVES MY POINT: MALE BODY PARTS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR COURAGE. Find another expression already !!!

[LatteLib]

43. Wait a minute here, Skittles

If you are going to be the self appointed politically correct speech police, what are you doing using the term "drag queen" in such a derogatory manner?
Let's get one thing straight, in this country we have the right to freedom of speech. If I choose to use a term figuratively because of the path my own life has followed and the personal battles I have ensued, that is my perogative. If it offends your delicate feminine sensibilities, put me on ignore but, don't presume to make a mountain out of a molehill and then offend the transexual community in the process.
By the way, I am proud to have a pair (figuratively speaking) and they have served me well.

[truth2power]

41. ?

"our cowardly piece of shit "PRESIDENT" already "has a pair"

Are you sure about that??

[Spinoza]

18. OF COURSE MOVE ON HAD TO BACK OFF

Do we want to win in 04 or do want to feel immediate emotional satisfaction? WE know that Shrub is, in fact, no better than Hitler in respect to his character. The only reason his actions are not equivalent to Hitler is because he doesn't (yet) have Hitler's power.

However, the large majority of the American people simply don't believe this. Comparisons of this type are GLEEFULLY seized by the Nazi neo-cons and used to make us look paranoid, hysterical, insane, moronic, anti-American, etc.

I've been thru this before. In 1972 many of us also compared Nixon to Hitler. The fact that we were right made no difference. Our analogies were seized upon by the right and paraded in newspapers around the country. The fascists LOVED it. Even though McGovern condemned the (true) analogy, he was tarred by association and wound up suffering the biggest loss in American electoral history. (He lost 49 states.)

At the time I was also upset by McGovern's retractions. I also thought he needed to "grow a pair". The fact is I was wrong. I now realize I wound up helping Nixon win his landslide. Many of us need to shut the f--- up about our true feelings until the election.

[WilliamPitt]

19. We should take a HUGE lesson from this

Right now, the Democratic party momentum is in the hands of the ideological wing of the base. This has leant an incredible amount of momentum and energy and passion to the cause, but it also puts us all in the hands of people who allow themselves to do what feels good instead of doing what is smart. It feels good to make comparisons between Bush and Hitler, but the 80% of Americans who get their news from TV see the Anti-Defamation League ripping MoveOn. That 80% will have heard of MoveOn for the first time within this narrow context, and will only have the mainstream media providing this context, and that does damage.

Can we avoid this? Yes. By being smarter, and being cautious about having our ideological base in the driver's seat.

[blm]

25. I hope everyone reads your post.

If not, you should start a thread with these thoughts.

[nolabels]

26. You are exactly correct about that, the scary part is many won't.........

know till it's probably too late. I am not fatalistic, it's just the slide to a darker place continues even as left side is gaining momentum, members and points for the side of humanity most would agree with. The other side just gets more devious, as history as has always shown. Many here could see that I am sure.

They just couldn't believe the government and other establishments would lie to them. They drill that precept that government is honest into their head a school, so it's just like a reflex.

[PVnRT]

29. Exactly

And, last I heard, the Nazis are a political party, that is, National Socialists - Bush is more rightly a fascist, or corporatist. But I digress...

[Redneck Socialist]

37. You're painting with an awfully broad brush there.

One ad comparing bush to Hitler, a comparison which I agree doesn't help our cause, is not the result of "having our ideological base in the drivers seat."

That ad was just one of many, didn't make the final cut, and was pulled by Moveon. The creators of that ad let their enthusiasm run away with them. Feels good? Sure. Counter productive? Sure. But to see this incident as evidence that our "ideological base" is somehow running the show goes a little too far.

There is indeed "an incredible amount of momentum and energy and passion" right now and that is a good thing. A thing to tap into, a thing to take advantage of, not a thing to be cautious about.

Now is not the time for caution, but for boldness.

[many a good man]

20. Bush is not Hitler

Mussolini is the more appropriate analogy. Let's try and be accurate here!

[Military Brat]

35. "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism ..."

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. (from Encyclopedia Italiana, Giovanni Gentile, editor).

So, what will the Repubs do if someone produces an ad comparing * to Mussolini?

Actually, bush is in a class of fascism all by himself. He is so abhorrent, he requires no comparison to Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, anybody.

[messiah]

23. Centrists individuals or groups always back down

[kath]

27. Dammit, Republicans do the same thing and get away with it!!

See RatTerrier's thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=987388

(article is from Oct. 1998)
'Hitler' ad an issue in Kentucky


Kentucky Senate The open seat race between Republican Jim Bunning and Democrat Scotty Baesler has turned into a bare-knuckled battle focusing on Social Security, taxes, education and the two campaigns' tactics.

Polling suggests that Bunning and Baesler are in a tight fight, though Republican insiders appear to be more upbeat and optimistic than their Democratic counterparts.

The hottest topic of the Senate race has been a Bunning ad that used footage of Baesler at a Kentucky political event. The spot included close-up shots of the Democrat, pounding the lectern and screaming about a number of issues. In the background of the ad was Wagner, the German composer identified with Adolph Hitler.

Baesler's campaign complained bitterly about the ad, arguing that the camera shots and music were intended to make him look like Hitler. The Louisville Courier-Journal, the largest newspaper in the state, editorialized about the ad, strongly criticizing the Bunning campaign. But the Republican's campaign decided against pulling the ad or altering it in any way, fearing that that would be seen as an admission of guilt and prolong the issue.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/analysis/rothenberg/1998/10/20/

[kath]

28. Could someone please send that Kentucky story to MoveOn?

I can't find an e-mail address to send it to them.

Dammit, the Republicans need to be called out on the fact that they use the same tactics.
Remember all the years of "Hitlery" and "feminazis"?
And comparing Daschle to Saddam recently?

[Ramsey]

30. On this issue, we should take the high road

It's true that the Repugs use "Hitlery" and I was interested to see the article about the Kentucky campaign ad.

While I often think we should fight back more often, I think in the Bush-Hitler comparison arena, we only do ourselves a favor to find another analogy. The Hitler comparison is so inflammatory it distracts from the message itself.

I'll wager that the Anti-Defamation League complains when conservative groups use this imagery as well.

[Southsideirish]

38. I'm not surprised. Liberal = wimp. Its always been the case. (n/t)

[proud patriot]

39. I was one of the members that voted the ad Down

Regardless of my personal beliefs the ad would not
of helped the cause to get bush out of office .

In Fact I'm so glad Moveon is starting a new vote for
different catagories because the funny ads were the ones
I tended to give high marks to .

These 2 in paticular were my favorite funny ads

He Can't Do That (had me rolling on the floor)
http://www.bushin30seconds.org/vote/view.html?ad=KoF.pdImt6buKg.txkAdAnZpZXctMjI1Nw--

Seriously

http://www.bushin30seconds.org/vote/view.html?ad=UTGzk8zRf4oXVGn4LcTpl3ZpZXctNzY5

[Name removed]

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[Moderator]

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