Why does America have so many gun deaths?

[Damndifino]

(I'm posting in General Discussion rather than Justice because I'd like to get an all-round DU view on this question.)

I've watched Bowling For Columbine several times now, and don't feel wholly satisfied by Michael Moore's conclusions.

Comparing and contrasting with other countries, what factors do you think lie behind America's high rate of firearm deaths?

[Sir_Shrek]

1. As I saw a comedian say it many years ago...

...we don't seem tolerate much bullshit in America.

[Terwilliger]

4. are you kidding? George Bush is president, FFS!

America is full of bullshit.

[StClone]

14. Disparity of wealth

And worth with Bush as a Poster Boy. You gotta protect what you stole "legally".

[Terwilliger]

2. what conclusions?

He pointed out the problems brought on by our culture of fear.

I think there are a lot of firearm deaths because guns are encouraged as a tool by so many people, and glorified by so many.

[Damndifino]

5. Conclusions

Yes, Moore did conclude that the culture of fear is to blame. While I think he has a point, I feel he may be incorrect in dismissing America's violent history.

[frogfromthenorth2]

8. Ignorance is the root of all evil.....

That's my theory.

[Terwilliger]

16. ok...did you see the segment about black people?

I didn't think he dismissed the history

[Damndifino]

18. It seemed to me that in the last analysis...

... in the interview with Heston, he was dismissing history. He drew comparisons (to my mind fallacious) with Nazi Germany and the British Empire, and argued that they had violent histories also.

[Terwilliger]

30. so what do you think?

do you agree with Heston's conclusion?

[Damndifino]

33. I think I do...

...although not with his complacency. America does have a uniquely bloody history. Take Moore's Nazi analogy: there, violence was state-run and not embedded in popular culture. Same thing applies to the British Empire (which also wasn't run quite as violently as Moore seems to imagine).

But then history is a process, not an entity; it cannot in itself cause anything. There must also be a reason why American history has been so violent.

[DoNotRefill]

31. Yup...

One of Moore's main points was that gun control was historically a response by white America at fear of black people to keep black people disarmed.

The more things change, the more things stay the same.

[Damndifino]

36. Are you saying that...

...gun control today (or the desire for it) is rooted in fear of black people?

[DoNotRefill]

70. It depends on the individual pushing for gun control...

Everybody pushing for gun control has their own reasons, just like everybody who is against gun control has their own reasons.

The first gun control laws in the US applied only to blacks, predominantly slaves, but free blacks too. One central part of the infamous Scott v. Sanford decision (AKA the Dred Scott Decision for the non-lawyer types out there) was that blacks could not be citizens, because if they were citizens, they'd have the right to keep and bear arms. After the Civil War, a slew of gun control laws were passed. These were done in a manner to sidestep the 14th Amendment, for example by banning all handguns that poor blacks could afford, while allowing pistols that were brought back from the Civil War (regardless of which side the person fought on) to be kept.

However, there's NO doubt that at least as late as WWII, gun control WAS racist. In the early 1940's, the Florida Supreme Court overturned a conviction of a white male for violation of a gun control law, because the legislative intent was to disarm minorities, not white people. I shit you not, they actually SAID THAT.

I DO find it intersting when people pushing gun control state that they want to keep guns out of the "wrong hands", and not take guns away from hunters. By a vast majority, the "wrong hands" seem to mean in practice "black hands", particularly "urban black hands". And that, my friends, truly sucks.

I'm (sort-of) rich and white. Regardless of what gun laws are passed, I'll find a way to legally own whatever I want. For example, I now own a bunch of machineguns and firearms "silencers", and it's ALL LEGAL. Very few blacks can say the same, due to the Jim Crow nature of the laws regulating them.

[Terwilliger]

40. what's inaccurate about that?

the fear-mongers in this country always use bogeymen to get what they want...look at the freakin' Drug War...it was nothing but a systematic assault on "lower" races by demonizing them and using that fear to initiate the "laws" that they were able to get

[Damndifino]

43. Moore argues that...

...Americans own guns (partly) because they fear black people.

[Terwilliger]

44. again, what's inaccurate about that?

Ask white male gun owners what they think about black folks.

[Damndifino]

48. So are you opposed or in favour?

For gun control or against it? Your own logic would suggest that either answer implies racism.

[Terwilliger]

53. well, nice of you to change the topic

You haven't said whether you agree with Heston's conclusion that there's a certain defect in Americans of non-Aryan descent.

[Columbia]

59. I don't think he ever said that

Just rewatched that part. The two answers he gave were "mixed ethnicity" and "history of violence." Although, he implies that racism plays a part, he never says that "there's a certain defect in Americans of non-Aryan descent." Also, considering that Heston played a role during the Civil Rights movement during the 60's, I don't think one could argue that he himself was racist.

[Terwilliger]

63. mixed ethnicity?

I love how you leave salient points out of your rebuttal

He said after being pressed about why there's so much more gun violence in this country, and without any other expalnation, concluded that people "mixed ethnicity" were the reason.

[Columbia]

73. The disputed scene

Heston: We have probably a more mixed ethnicity than other countries, some other countries...

Moore: You think it's an ethnic thing?

Heston: No, I don't, I wouldn't go so far as that, we had enough problems with civil rights in the beginning.

[Terwilliger]

79. disputed how?

his conclusion was that there was more gun violence because we have a mixed ethnicity

Now, I know the simple truth belies your argument, but to deny his implication is really disingenuous. Heston suggested that there is more gun violence in this country because of "mixed ethnicity".

[Columbia]

83. The simple truth

Mixed ethnicity simply means that differenct ethnicites exist together here. Racism (past and present) has driven many people to poverty and many have resorted to drugs and gangs to provide for their livelihood and security. Violence (with guns and otherwise) is a direct result of these factors.

It is not suprising that Heston, who was a Civil Rights movement activist, would believe that racism does play a role in why violence is so prevalent today.

[Terwilliger]

88. see, you're manufacturing facts

you're telling me what Heston's conclusion is based on what he said in the movie. Problem is, based on what he said in the movie has nothing to do with the assertions you attribute to him.

Maybe you have a link that shows Heston actually saying the things that you say he said?

[Columbia]

All I'm saying

Is that in light of Heston's work in Civil Rights, it would be truly disingenuous to assume that his comment was racist when it is more likely a condemnation of racism.

However, I am only infering that that is what Heston meant when he said "mixed ethnicity" based on his history and current social and economic dynamics.

[Character Assassin]

52. Why not ask me?

I'm white.
I'm male.
I own guns.
I think I and almost everyone else can see through the puerile stereotypes you're trying to bring into this discussion.

[Terwilliger]

55. I knew what you think years ago

but thanks for asking :hi:

[blondeatlast]

60. And we can see through yours as well.

[Character Assassin]

61. This should be rich: what stereotypes am I introducing to the discussion?

No, I'll wait. Please, go ahead.

[DoNotRefill]

58. I'm a white male gun owner...

and I hold black folks in the same esteem that I hold everybody. They get no special treatment in my mind because of their skin color.

[Terwilliger]

66. so why do YOU think there's so much gun violence here in the US

and not elsewhere?

[DoNotRefill]

74. I think it's socio-economic.

and demographic in nature.

You can predict when criminality is going to spike by looking at the birth rates.

[Terwilliger]

80. ok...so who are you talking about?

and what solution do you propose based on the idea that your conclusions are correct?

[DoNotRefill]

86. Well, first off...

I'd start by decriminalizing drugs, taxing it, and using the money to fund rehab. The Drug War is a bad and stupid idea. It also gives people the idea that it's OK to break the law. Drug users shouldn't be in jail, violent people should be in jail. Secondly, I'd revamp the education system, so that it actually worked. If you're uneducated, it's very difficult to find a decent job, and lack of a bright future is what breeds most criminality. I'd also include an anti-drug, anti-alcohol program, depending on what actually works to keep people from starting. The vast majority of crime is drug and alcohol related, and almost all violent crime has alcohol or drugs as a contributing factor.

There will always be SOME criminals. For most, criminality is opportunistic. If people had a stake in society and saw a way to get ahead legally, the vast, vast majority would do it legally instead of robbing and killing.

Prohibition has never worked. It failed miserably with alcohol, it's failing miserably now with drugs, and it will fail miserably with guns if they ever are stupid enough to try it.

As far as the "who" I'm talking about, I'd have to say 17-30 year olds. That's the age group which is the most likely to commit crime. Whenever there's a "baby boom", around 20 years later there's a crime spike, as a larger percentage of the population than normal is in the high crime years. Our best bet is to give people in that age group something that they can lose if they become criminals.

[Columbia]

87. Hear hear!

:think:

[Terwilliger]

89. 17-30 year old.....women?

men? 17-30 year-olds are out committing gun violence? Interesting stats.

By the way, I was talking about where the drug war came from, not why it doesn't work.

[DoNotRefill]

92. You'd be surprised...

in the increased number of women committing crimes. That's one of the fastest increasing segments of the criminal population.

[Terwilliger]

94. yes I'm sure...so only 17-30 year-old women are using guns improperly?

:shrug:

[DoNotRefill]

96. Did I say that?

No, I didn't.

Stop trying to put ridiculous words into my mouth.

[Terwilliger]

101. well, upthread I asked you who it was who's doing the undue gun violence

and you really haven't answered...you HAVE gone on to talk about other things

[DoNotRefill]

117. I was talking about all crime in general...

as the percentage of the population in the 17-30 year old range gets larger proportionally, the crime rate will increase. When the 17-30 demographic is smaller, crime goes down.

There are other factors at work besides this, but the percentage of the total population in that age bracket is generally a good predictor of what the crime rate will or will not do.

[Terwilliger]

119. so, now it's just youth in gneral

that is responsible for the misuse of guns in this country?

[DoNotRefill]

125. Why do I bother?

Terwilliger, people in that age group commit the vast majority of crimes OVERALL.

So yes, they commit the largest percentage of crimes involving guns.

ALL youth are not ALL responsible for ALL gun crime. But it's a FACT that young people are far more likely to be involved with criminality than people older or younger than that.

[Terwilliger]

138. You're dodging the question

Canada, Switzerland, the UK...country after country has guns but doesn't have so much gun violence.

Now, I ask you again WHO is using guns in this country? 17-30 yr-olds is highly general. WHY is there so much more gun violence here than anywhere else? No other country has socio-economic problems?

[DoNotRefill]

161. There's no fixed answer.

Whites, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, little green men from Mars, they ALL can use guns in crime.

The single largest factor for predicting criminality within a demographic group is age, not race.

If you REALLY want to try and predict future criminality, I'd suggest you look within that age group and use previous behavior as a sorting signal. People previously convicted of a serious crime (or a long string of less serious crimes) are statistically far more likely to recidivate than a person with a clean record is likely to "go bad". Of course, this isn't an absolute, recidivism isn't guaranteed, and having a clean record isn't a guarantee that one will not become a criminal.

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the UK population do you think has access to guns? 5%? Less?

I don't know why we have so much gun crime. Of course, I also don't know why we have so much non-gun crime. I DO know that saying "it's all because we have guns readily available" is an overly simplistic cop-out, because if guns caused criminality, everyplace with a high percentage of people with access to guns would have a high crime rate, and this is demonstrably not the case. Also, if you look at the levels of non-gun crime in the US, you'll see it's quite high, and cannot be explained away by the simplistic mantra of "it's all the gun's fault!"

[slackmaster]

65. I like black folks just as I like folks in general

I'm a white male gun owner.

The only folks I don't like are ones who behave badly.

[Terwilliger]

67. who are they?

who behaves badly?

[slackmaster]

68. Charles Manson comes to mind

I don't like him.

[Terwilliger]

72. well, he was sick, twisted fuck...I'm talking about TODAY though

why do these things continue TODAY

[slackmaster]

84. He still is a sick, twisted fuck

why do these things continue TODAY

Because there is a never-ending supply of new sick, twisted fucks to replace every sick, twisted fuck we lock up or execute.

[alwynsw]

176. I'm a white male gun owner with a multiracial family

Since you asked me indirectly, I'll tell you what I think of "black folks". They're folks. White folks is folks. Oriental folks is folks. Folks is folks is folks.

(To the ethnic, raceial, and national groups I omitted or lumped together: Please know that I am merely using a few examples to make a point.)

[Racenut20]

3. Surity of Punishment is lacking

Plea bargain murder one

Too many guns sold

Too many wackos can buy guns

endless

[spindoctor]

6. People don't die from guns, they die from bullets

Moore doesn't really draw a conclusion. He states somewhere that Canada has more guns per household than the US, but I wonder if Canada has more ammo per household than the US.
A hunting rifle with a box full of shells isn't very likely to be associated with any gun-related death.
A 9mm automatic with three reversible clips (sporting gun of course) on the other hand, serves no real purpose other than to spray the sidewalk in a drive-by.

[Cannikin]

9. It's those darn 'Matrix' movies.......

Oh yeah, and my parents dont supervise me. They put me down in front of the TV so they can go to republican house parties.

[spindoctor]

13. Let's not forget rap music

...and video games.

[Damndifino]

11. I'll rephrase the question...

Why does America have so many more 9mm automatics than Canada (if that's true)? If you tell me that more are available (or legal) to buy, why is that so?

[spindoctor]

20. Anybody know where to find the numbers on this?

I don't think that anywhere else in the world, (some of) the guns you can buy freely here are considered sporting goods.

But as stated, I am only guessing here. I'll see if I can produce some facts. It also would be interesting to know how much ammunition the American gun owner uses compared to our neighbors.

So why? Because we have a culture of organized violence. We fought the Brittish through militias (read: acts of terrorism), and ever since we feel that every man has the right to own an AK-47.
How many countries have the right to arms written down in their constitution?
Will we encourage Iraq to have a similar amendment?

Yea, I think it is mostly cultural / historical.

[Buffler]

23. Where do I find these "automatic" 9MM pistols?

Seriously? Especially since automatic fire weapons are illegal for most people to own. I am not even sure if an automatic 9MM pistol is produced.

[Damndifino]

24. Pedant

I meant semi-automatic, as you knew perfectly well.

On edit: You're a mind-reader as well as a pedant: re-reading my own post, I find that I didn't use the word "pistol", although that's what I had in mind. I think, however, that spindoctor was thinking of 9mm submachine-guns, which are indeed fully automatic.

[DoNotRefill]

26. There are a few of them out there...

the Glock 18, the Beretta 92FS, the H&K VP-70, et cetera.

BTW, did you know that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals just ruled that §922(o) is unconstitutional?

[proud patriot]

7. My Theory

The history of this country has always
been about us vs. them mentality .

It's like we've been raised to be fearful
of someone coming to hurt us .

It think Bowling for columbine raises
the dialouge to discuss this very question
It was never supposed to answer the question
just raise questions , so we as a nation might
be able to reflect and discuss it.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

10. high population

vast lower class
rabid drug war fosters competition
distrust and competition man-to-man encouraged (social darwinism)

[Damndifino]

15. But...

high population)
The population density of the US is low compared with European countries.
vast lower class)
Is the lower class really any different from, say, Britain as a proportion of the population?
rabid drug war fosters competition)
Britain also has a rabid drug war.
distrust and competition man-to-man encouraged (social darwinism)
I think this may be the key. Unlike other "civilised" nations, America seems to foster a popular culture of vigilantism and suspicion, heightened to an extraordinary degree.

[StClone]

12. Are Suicides included in gun deaths?

If so then why are we shooting each other and ourselves with such fequency?

[Mudcat]

34. Suicides not included in FBI stats

This summary report cites CDC data that indicates there are more suicide-related firearm deaths than firearm-related murders: http://www.helpnetwork.org/frames/resources_factsheets_suicide2.pdf

And these links are specific to murder only, which isn't quite what you're looking for ("gun death" vs "murder"), but they are still topical to this discussion:

Murder by category: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/xl/02tbl2-10.xls

Firearm-related death by circumstances: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/xl/02tbl2-13.xls

[Junkdrawer]

17. Fear. TV used it for ratings once "news as a public service"...

was removed in the 80s and news had to carry its own weight for profits. Now the admin uses fear as the main tool for population control/pResidential popularity.

Hey! Fire! Fire! Orange Alert!

[grayrace]

19. over drive production of firearms, a strong gun industry that has

political allies, and an almost uniquely american way of NOT dealing with problems when they come up.

[DoNotRefill]

21. It's cultural.

Look at the number of non-gun homicides in the US. It's far higher than the total homicide rates in Europe. We're a violent people. Guns are just a tool used to act out our desires.

Another point is that the vast majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides. If there were no guns at all in the US, the suicide rate would likely stay about the same, but people would use other methods.

[Mudcat]

22. Literacy

The more people read, the more they are able to rationally consider solutions to problems. The less they are able to read, the more they are inclined to "solve" problems with emotive/instinctual forces. Corporate entities encourage governments to develop drone workers in public schools, not legions of readers capable of critical thinking. The result: masses of barely literate, emotionally manipulated mobs. A few of the less stable use weapons, and firearms in particular, as extremely forceful means of expressing their anger, hatred, depression, etc. But in Canada, a place by and large colder than the US in Winter, kids have more of an opportunity to avoid the constant visual media bombardment. Not much, but a little, more time to read during the long dark mornings and evenings. Just enough to be a bit more rational overall than their southern neighbors.

[frogfromthenorth2]

25. I will repeat: IGNORANCE IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.....

[Mudcat]

27. Well...

... my argument could also be used to support the idea that *WARM SUNNY DAYS ARE THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL*, but then again, I live in Hawaii :)

[frogfromthenorth2]

29. Hummm... I don't know if I should hate you beacause

of what you said or because you live in Hawaii....

:-)

[corporatewhore]

28. too many crazies w/guns and not enough laws

This is one thing that really turns me off to Dean i dont want another NRA prez

[DoNotRefill]

32. What new laws do we need?

and why would they be obeyed any better than the laws out there now prohibiting homicide, robbery, et cetera?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Too many guns in the hands of too many people.

Plus a glorification of violence as a solution to conflicts. Also, not nearly enough controls.

We should demand, at least, registration of all guns.

[Damndifino]

38. Glorification

glorification of violence as a solution to conflicts

I think this may be another key point. Many Americans (it seems to me) regard their country as great because (among other reasons) they fought a war to end slavery. I think most other civilised nations regard America as worrying for precisely the same reason (i.e. the fact that you needed to fight a war).

[Columbia]

41. Who's going to register

The law-abiding or the criminals?

Who do we have to worry about?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. Criminals?

A good many gun deaths are not the result of "criminals" using them, but of Joe Schmoe good citizen getting pissed off at his wife or neighbor or some poor schmuck knocking on his door.

It isn't the "criminals" that worry me, it's my neighbors getting a bellyful of hooch and thinking he has to settle some score.

What's the problem with registering a dangerous weapon? You have to register your car, your marriage, your kids. Why not guns?

[slackmaster]

62. You don't have to register to exercise civil rights

Free speech, trial by jury, freedom from unlawful search and seizure, etc. Those of us who consider keeping and bearing arms to be a civil right regard gun ownership as the same kind of right.

[DoNotRefill]

76. So, let's register books, too.

after all, ideas are far more dangerous than guns...

[Terwilliger]

82. how about worrying about gun manufacturers who flood the market

...consequences of flooding the market be damned

[slackmaster]

85. Guns do not behave like gas molecules

Flooded markets do not result in people who don't want things buying them just because they are cheap and readily available. For any given person either you can get a gun or you cannot.

If you can, you probably will get one if you really want one.

[Terwilliger]

95. frankly, more guns means the possibility of more guns in the wrong hands

you don't see the connection?

If guns were only sold through mail-order after extensive bacground checks, there probably wouldn't be any undue gun violence.

Don't you agree?

[Columbia]

97. And Prohibition

ensured that that no one would ever get drunk again.

[Terwilliger]

103. who's calling for gun prohibition?

or, is it simply trying to equate regulation with prohibition?

you didn't address the substance of my point

[Columbia]

106. The sentiment is the same

Over-regulation simply creates a black-market where rampant criminal activity thrives. It happened with alcohol prohibition and it is currently happening in the war on drugs.

[Terwilliger]

107. what? wait...huh? alcohol is heavily regulated now

AND heavily taxed and there's no black market

[Columbia]

110. I was speaking of Prohibition

And I do not consider "heavily regulated" the freedom of anybody over the age of 21 being able to purchase alcohol.

[Terwilliger]

123. you can't just get alcohol anywhere

what does regulation mean to you?

[Columbia]

131. If guns were treated the way alcohol was

I would support that kind of regulation whole-heartedly.

[DoNotRefill]

120. Sure there is...

ever hear of moonshine?

[Terwilliger]

124. not lately

there's some still being made but 99 percent of alcohol consumption comes through regulated exchange

[DoNotRefill]

130. Well...

moonshine is readily available here.

BTW, some guns trade hands on the black market, but 99% of guns go through the regulatory mandated process for legal purchase.

And the vast majority of guns are never used illegally (I recall seeing figures of 1/3 of one percent are used criminally).

[Terwilliger]

139. so why does America have so much more gun violence than anyone else?

readily available, eh?

Hmm, and just how many people use the stuff?

[DoNotRefill]

162. America does NOT have so much more gun violence than anyone else.

There are lots of places which have more gun violence than the US does, and some of them have strict gun control laws in place.

As for moonshine, I don't know, just as I don't know how many people use illegal drugs. I DO know that people use illegal drugs, and that people drink moonshine. There's enough of a demand for it that somebody's supplying it.

[DoNotRefill]

98. Didn't Oswald buy the Carcano...

through the mail?

These theories of yours are getting odder and odder...

Maybe I'm wrong about decriminalizing pot....maybe it does more damage than I thought.

[Columbia]

99. I can see the music...

:crazy:

[Terwilliger]

104. then by all means, prohibit it

we can prohibit guns at the same time since they kill tens of thousands and pot kills no one

[DoNotRefill]

177. It's been prohibited....

since 1968. Crime hasn't dropped.

[Terwilliger]

105. so, why are people who are using guns improperly getting them?

and have you addressed the original question?

[DoNotRefill]

118. People who use guns improperly get them...

because they're handy tools.

If you're asking HOW they get them, they get them the same way you get pot...by going to the black market.

[Terwilliger]

122. oh...so all guns used improperly are attained through the black market?

I'm sure that's big news.

[DoNotRefill]

132. Terwilliger...

it's illegal for a felon to possess a gun or ammunition. Therefore EVERY time a felon gets a gun, BY DEFINITION, they get it illegally.

[Terwilliger]

140. well "felon" is all well and good...

but not everyone who uses a gun improperly is a felon

[DoNotRefill]

164. It's also illegal to have a gun while intoxicated in most places.

It's illegal for drug abusers to have a gun. It's illegal for a person convicted of a misdemeanor of domestic violence to have a gun. It's illegal for a person that's crazy to have a gun. It's illegal for somebody dishonorably discharged from the military to have a gun. Oh, yeah, it's illegal to shoot people with a gun unless there's legal justification for it.

What's your point? On second thought...never mind.

[DoNotRefill]

75. Ummm...Bandera....you DO know that criminals are exempt....

from gun registration schemes, right?

It's a crime for a convicted felon to possess a firearm. You can't make them register their guns, because that would violate their Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination. The Supreme Court said so.

[Clark4VotingRights]

37. Just watch Bowling for Columbine.

Seriously.
That's the question it asks...and answers.

And, not to be a tease, his answer is racism.
I agree with his conclusion.
Canada, by contrast, has a ton of guns, but not a ton
of gun deaths.
Just watch Bowling for Columbine.

Charlton Heston comes right out and says it.

[Columbia]

39. I thought he said...

Dick Clark was responsible...
Or was it the media...
Or was it K-mart...

:eyes:

[Terwilliger]

46. sounds like you don't know what you're talking about

K-Mart was responsible for many of the deaths in Columbine, as they sold the bullets

[Columbia]

49. I am of the opinion

That Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were responsible for the Columbine murders.

[Terwilliger]

56. heh

that's right...noone is responsible EXCEPT the people who actually done the dirty deed

I suppose that's why Saddam's capture has pacified Iraq, right?

[Columbia]

64. Typical tactic

Of shifting blame to anyone but the actual perpetrators. By your logic, K-mart would also be responsible for someone who is killed by a baseball bat sold there. Criminal misuse is criminal misuse.

[Terwilliger]

71. True

so, Klebold and Harris are responsible and no one else...is that your assessment?

[Columbia]

77. Ultimately, yes

They committed those crimes, they are thus responsible.

As for the people who illegally gave them weapons, they are responsible for those crimes, but not the killings themselves.

Considering that the Littleton Police Department has not charged anyone else with with the murders at Columbine High, it would seem that they agree with me.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

57. I think they sold the ammo to minors

and that was the issue.

[Damndifino]

42. I did watch Bowling For Columbine

Several times. That's why I asked the question.

On the subject of Canada - their per-capita gun-death rate is about five times that of Britain, so simple availability of guns probably is a contributing factor.

[slackmaster]

45. Same reason we have so many non-gun deaths

Subtract homicides by firearm and we're still way ahead of most other similarly economically developed countries in homicides.

I think the root of the problem is we have so many assholes.

[CO Liberal]

47. Because We Have So Many Guns......

...in the hands of those who should not have them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. A long tradition that 'real men own guns'

the 'frontier spirit' ethos, massively reinforced by Westerns, and to a lesser extent general TV shows. Belligerent young men then aspire to owning guns. Contrast this with the UK, which also has plenty of violent arseholes, but to whom 'being a man' means beating the crap out of someone with your fists. British city centres aren't a pretty sight on Friday and Saturday nights, but at least the injuries aren't fatal, on the whole.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

69. And honestly, I think a lot of it -but not all of it-stems from

SMALL PENIS SYNDROME.

Not to disrespect the responsible gun-owners on DU...

[DoNotRefill]

78. My wife owns a bunch of guns.

Does she have a small penis?

:evilgrin:

[jpgray]

54. Because we can have guns AND we are fucking crazy.

:D

[ComerPerro]

81. Because we have a ton of FReepers in this country

There are tons of responsible gun owners in this country. Unfortunately, though, there are also fringe, psychotic FReeper drunken-militia gun nuts who kill anyone who even looks at their property.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

90. Because we have so many guns adn so many have been brainwashed

that there's a "booglar" behind every Bush.

Couple that with the Gary Coopers and John Waynes that found answers to problems in a warm gun.

[DoNotRefill]

93. There are countries...

with a far highter rate of firearms possession who have a tiny fraction of the crime we do.

Guns don't cause crime any more than spoons cause obesity.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

100. Which countries? (Industrialized, preferably)

[Columbia]

102. Switzerland for one

They require each household to have a weapon, preferably a scary-looking assault weapon.

[Terwilliger]

108. uhh...what?

have you got a source for that assertion?

[Columbia]

109. Sure do

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/990610Halbrook.html

[Terwilliger]

112. well, this is great news...Switzerland has many guns and little violence

so what's going on in THIS country?

[Columbia]

129. I will refer to...

Posts 83 and 86.

[Terwilliger]

137. 83 and 86 don't explain who uses guns irresponsibly

the fact that it gets into the why of the thing is interesting, but being poor and inebriated could apply to people in so many other countries

[Columbia]

144. Here are some stats

From the Department of Justice on Homicide Trends in the US

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm

And some findings:

Older teens and young adults have the highest homicide victimization and offending rates.

Blacks are disproportionately represented as both homicide victims and offenders. In terms of rates per 100,000, blacks are six times more likely to be victimized and about eight times more likely to commit homicide than are whites.

Males represent three-quarters of homicide victims and nearly ninety percent of offenders. In terms of rates per 100,000, males are three times more likely to be killed, and almost eight times more likely to commit homicide than are females.

Approximately one-third of murder victims and almost half the offenders are under the age of 25. For both victims and offenders, the rate per 100,000 peaks in the 18-24 year-old age group.

The proportion of homicides involving guns differs by circumstance

Gun involvement -
in gang related homicides increased after 1980
in homicides that occurred during the commission of a felony increased dramatically after 1985
in homicides resulting from arguments declined to the lowest levels recorded recently
in homicides resulting from other circumstances remained relatively constant from 1976 to 2000

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

111. To be considered re: Switzerland

Some pro-gun groups argue that Switzerland proves their contention that there is not necessarily a link between the availability of guns and violent crime in society.

But other commentators suggest that the reality is more complicated.

Switzerland is one of the world's richest countries, but has remained relatively isolated.

It has none of the social problems associated with gun crime seen in other industrialised countries like drugs or urban deprivation.

Despite the lack of rigid gun laws, firearms are strictly connected to a sense of collective responsibility.

From an early age Swiss men and women associate weaponry with being called to defend their country.

Different world there;

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm

On edit, also see: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html

Higher literacy rate, no death penalty, smaller drug probs... I think they're just more civilized than the US. They are mature enough.

[Columbia]

113. And it is a world

We would do well to emulate.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

116. And later the same year (In Switzerland...) or... I don't know.

t about 10:30 A.M. on September 27, a 57-year-old man from Zurich (we won't give the killer publicity by mentioning his name), burst into the regional parliament of Zug — a canton in central Switzerland, near Lucerne — and opened fire, killing 14 people, all of them elected officials. He then appears to have committed suicide.

Fourteen more were wounded. The killer thought he was on a vendetta against government and law enforcement. He had brought charges against public officers seven times; all his accusations were dismissed as frivolous. While shooting, he called his victims "Mafia" and "bastards." A letter was found wherein he referred to a coming "day of reckoning for the Zug mafia."

The killer wore a jacket with the word "Polizei," although the jacket was not an official uniform of Swiss police. He fired several 20-round magazines from a semiautomatic SIG PE 90 rifle. He also had a pump action shotgun, a Sig Sauer 7.65mm pistol, a revolver, and a canister containing gasoline.

In 1970, according to Swiss television, the killer had been sentenced to 18 months in prison for several crimes, including sexual offenses against children. Because his felonies had been legally expunged due to the passage of time, he was allowed to purchase firearms. In the 1980s he was investigated for various offences, including assaults. Finally, in 1998, he used a revolver to threaten a bus driver. In his demented mind, he was fighting his own battle against the local transportation agency "Zugerland" whose chief, Robert Bisig, was also a member of the local parliament, and was wounded in the recent shooting.

more: http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel103001.shtml

And there are (unfortunately) many other occurrances to rebutt the "guns are good" faction.

[Columbia]

121. You can find instances of crime anywhere,

Regardless of gun ownership. The fact of the matter is, guns are inanimate objects that are used as a tool by the possesser for purposes of good or evil. By restricting them from law-abiding citizens for use of good, you are leaving them unable to defend themselves from criminals (who by definition do not follow laws) who use them as instruments of evil.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

127. I'm giving valid sources for argument so far. Not opinion.

From sites that are not anti gun, but mainstream. As to the "Only criminals will have guns," There are far more "crimes of passion" here in the states than the "criminal" use of guns that the NRA likes to use as a fear motivator for gun ownership.

Can't agree with you.

[DoNotRefill]

133. So now the National Review is mainstream?

:wtf:

[Columbia]

135. Do you happen to have a source

for your figures? Also, how do you separate "crimes of passion" from "criminal" use of guns? Last time I checked, a "passionate" murderer was still considered a criminal.

Whether I'm killed by a snow-globe or by being shot with a gun, I'm still just as dead.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

142. CDC Figures

2001 Gun deaths in US. All Ages

Total, 29,573

Gun deaths by legal intervention: 323 !!!

Gun deaths by suicide: 16,869

"Unintentional" 802

Considering that the gun deaths by legal intervention was only 323, I feel safe in saying there were FAR more "crimes of passion" than legitimate self defense shootings.

source: http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/output_options_10.html

[Columbia]

145. Logical fallacy

The VAST majority of uses of firearms for self-defense DO NOT involve shooting or death, but merely require brandishing the weapon. There are estimated to be between 800,000 to 2.5 million cases of this happening per year.

See:

Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun. Northwestern University School of Law, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, vol. 86, issue 1, 1995.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

153. I don't happen to have that in my library....

However, I'm sure that either of us could come up with plenty of "expert testimony" to either refute or substantiate that claim. There's no way to proove that the perp who was frightened away would have actually murdered the firearm brandisher.

[Columbia]

157. Only educated guesses

The only way to truly know would be to ban and confiscate guns from all law-abiding citizens and see if firearms homicides increase among "innocent" victims. And that is an experiment I'd rather not see come to fruition.

[DoNotRefill]

128. Are you suggesting...

that Switzerland's crime rate is even half of the US crime rate, despite the easy availability of machineguns there????

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

134. Switzerland's population is roughly 7 million compared to our nearly 3 mil

The single event listed above would be the same as appx. 600 murders of strangers here in the US. I can't find statistics, but just using this one incident, I would imagine that a case could be made.

[DoNotRefill]

136. Wrong.

Check their crime rate per 100,000 and compare it to our crime rate per 100,000.

You'll find that they have a tiny fraction of the crime that we have across the board, both in the raw numbers AND adjusted for population (which is what the crime rate is).

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

143. Source? Or more opinion?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

147. The Swiss: 27% of homes have firearms. The U.S. 35%

The Swiss suffered 22.8 violent gun deaths per 100,000
The US suffered 18.57 per 100,000

source: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

[Columbia]

149. You really need to take a closer look at what you cite

Switzerland does NOT have a 22.8 per 100,000 firearm homicide rate, but 0.58. The 22.8 figure is for deaths OVERALL. The US rate is 3.72 per 100,000.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

152. Heh. I'll have to give you that. I misread it.

BUT, they still do not have as many households per capita as the US (nearly 12% less) as you originally purported in "They require each household to have a weapon, preferably a scary-looking assault weapon."

[Columbia]

154. No problem

It's hard to read such small-type sometimes especially after reading and responding so much on DU. :evilgrin:

That is true though that it seems like they do have less firearms than I thought. Upon further research it seems that only males who served in their compulsory military service are required to keep an assault weapon. Also, there are probably exceptions for conscientious objectors to keeping a firearm. Regardless, they still reflect a country that has high per capita firearm ownership and low per capita gun homicide.

[DoNotRefill]

175. Getting out of Swiss military service...

is no easy thing to do. They take it VERY seriously, and everybody means EVERYBODY, unless they're in prison or something like that.

[DoNotRefill]

169. guncite made an error.

I've got the Killias article, and he explicitly states that Swiss military weapons are NOT included in his figures. Every Swiss household with a male between the ages of 20 and 42 residing in it has a machinegun stored in the house according to Swiss law. At the age of 42, they can choose to keep that gun for free or to turn it back into the government.

[Columbia]

170. Ah, ok.

I thought there might have been a discrepancy. Thanks for clearing it up! :yourock:

[DoNotRefill]

165. I think you'll find...

that a) the percentage of Swiss homes with firearms you quote is for PERSONALLY OWNED firearms, and does NOT include military service weapons. Almost every Swiss home has a military weapon, since every male between the ages of 20 and 42 (and women who volunteer) is in the Swiss military, and they keep their issued weapons at home (Source: http://www.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/legaff/Fact/gunown.html , the website you linked to is wrong, I suspect due to a transcription error), and b) you're quoting the total death rate as the total violent gun deaths. From the chart on the link you provided:

Switzerland: total death= 22.80, total homicide= 01.32, firearms homicide= 00.58, total suicide= 21.28 firearms suicide= 05.61

US: Total death= 18.57, total homicide= 05.70, firearms homicide= 3.72, total suicide= 12.06, firearms suicide= 07.35

Is suicide a crime? Because if you take suicide out of the equation, you're left with a Swiss homicide rate of 1.32 per 100,000, as compared to the US homicide rate of 5.7 per 100,000.

On edit: I looked it up. The guncite link you provided definitely has it wrong. They cite Killias's 1993 article as their source. Killias omits Swiss military weapons, See page 1723, last sentence, first column, just above "table 1", where he states "In relation to gun ownership and homicide rates military weapons in Switzerland were excluded because of their technical characteristics..."

[GRClarkesq]

91. This is a violent country

I better get a gun (another one that is).

[Shananigans]

114. Me too! :)

I'v never seen Bowling for Columbine...I wanna!!!

[opihimoimoi]

115. Have guns, will shoot.

[leftofthedial]

126. we have way too many bullets.

and not enough people are armed. /sarcasm

I say melt down every weapon on the planet.

If people want to kill one another, they should be forced to use their bare hands like civilized folk.

[Terwilliger]

141. all kinds of subthreads and discussions, but no one has given an answer

to the original question

[Columbia]

146. The answer is...

Poverty and the War on Drugs

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

148. Disagree. Too many guns in the hands of too many incompetents

there are far more gun related suicides that the "gang related" and legal use deaths combined.

[Columbia]

150. As stated before

Suicides will occur regardless of gun prevalence. For example, in Japan guns are virtually non-existent (except for the criminals and the mafia like the Yakuza) and their suicide rate is far higher than ours.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=japan+suicide+rate

I already cited the 800,000 to 2.5 million uses of defense gun uses per year that do not involve shooting or death.

I also have cited statistics from the Department of Justice that shows 94.2% of gun homicides involve gang-related activity and 68.8% of which are used in the commission of a felony.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

160. One thing I've learned is that with the Gun issue, there's not a lot

of chance to change another's mind on this forum and there are enough statistics to make a good argument in either direction.

I've enjoyed the lively banter, but I'm going to watch a movie and then Jon Stewart.

Later.

[Terwilliger]

151. the war on drugs causes the undue violence?

well! call Mike Moore and tell him!

[Columbia]

155. I think Mikey's too busy

Making money than to be bothered with the likes little ol' me. :)

[Terwilliger]

158. oooo...making money....what a horrible thing!

What I hear from you are the same old tired arguments that I hear from Libertarians and Republicans.

[Columbia]

159. Never said it was a horrible thing.

They may be the "same old tired arguments" but I think gun rights is one thing that us Democrats should embrace as it is consistent with an idealogy of personal freedom.

Gun control is a losing issue and some people attribute it to why Gore lost many southern states including his home state of Tennessee.

[K8-EEE]

156. Michael Moore Didn't Reach A Conlusion...

He has said in interviews that he was stumped to find an answer and in the end, just felt it was worthwhile to pose the question. He was surprised at how easy it was to get a gun in Canada, how even cities with similar demographics and ethnic make-ups etc. have almost no gun deaths in Canada. In the end he asks us: now why is that? It's a question that has been haunting me since I watched the film.

It was interesting how they would go up to houses in Toronto and just open the door and go, hey...you aren't gonna shoot me are you? All these neighborhods with no locks...including immigrant neighborhoods, minority neighborhoods, compare that with the thread we had here about the guy shooting someone for knocking too loud at his door cuz God knew what he was going to do?

Basically, our culture is ruled by fear.

[moondust]

163. Guns make killing easy.

And embolden the otherwise fearful.

[Columbia]

166. They also make it easier to defend your life

As much as gun control advocates want, you just cannot wish away all the guns in the world. And even if you could, why would you want to? That would just allow the strong and the powerful to control the weaker ones in society with other implements. By arming yourself, you are taking a stand and telling criminals and evildoers who want to take away your life, "HELL NO! YOU WILL NOT CONTROL ME! I WILL NOT LET YOU, YOU WHO DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE LIVES OF OTHERS, TO HAVE YOUR WAY! I WILL CONTROL MY LIFE AND MY DESTINY AND I AM WILLING TO DEFEND MY LIFE AND THE LIVES OF MY LOVED ONES EVEN IF IT MEANS TAKING YOURS!"

[moondust]

172. Wrong.

People in Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. are apparently doing just fine without a big gun culture and its attendant human devastation. Perhaps you should see somebody about your paranoia.

[Columbia]

173. If you bothered to read the thread

You'd see that there are countries, such as Switzerland, with a high rate of gun ownership who do not have the so-called "attendant human devastation" with it. Additionally, even our hero Michael Moore states this fact in his critcally acclaimed film, Bowling for Columbine - high gun ownership does not equal high crime. Perhaps you should see somebody about your over-simplified worldview and attempts to scape-goat our country's problems on inanimate objects.

[arewethereyet]

174. English people may not agree

don't know if BBC radio transcripts are avaialble...


listeners to a BBC radio program were recently asked to suggest a piece of legislation they thought would improve life in Britain. The promise was made to get a member of Parliament to introduce the measure for consideration.

Well, things didn't work out as planned. British MP Stephen Pound, who had agreed to introduce the legislation, has denounced the winning proposal as a "ludicrous, brutal, unworkable blood-stained piece of legislation."

So, what did the BBC listeners want? Simple enough. They wanted a law that would allow homeowners "to use any means to defend their home from intruders."


and violence is way up in the countries you mention since the passage of their gun bans.

[arewethereyet]

167. they don't call it a war on drugs for nothing

and the few non crime related deaths are just because Americans are as free to be stupid as anything else.

legalize drugs and watch violent crime drop like a rock.

I know, makes too much sense

[Columbia]

168. The never-ending War on Drugs

The problem with ending this fruitless and futile endeavor is that there are just too many government bureaucracies at stake. Agencies like the BATF, DEA, FBI, Customs, etc. all have a hand in and receive funding for the War on Drugs. Ending it would mean the abolishment of some of these agencies and an extreme reduction in others. Unfortunately, there are just too many entrenched interests for this to happen in the near future.

[arewethereyet]

171. let um go work on terror insted

[;enty of work to be done there

[EV1Ltimm]

178. i think it's because we glorify people who

instead of being a "pussy" and finding a reasonable solution to their problems, they have to be a "man" and fight/shoot it out.

Wyatt earp, billy the kid, jesse james, al capone et al have become legends for, what it comes down to, their inability to give a shit about anyone but themselves. Whenever you press these stories on other people who don't give a shit about anyone else but themselves, they fell that their only option for final resolution to an issue is getting rid of the person that's causing them grief.

"We think saddam has the bomb? Kill him!"
"Billy keeps picking on me at school, he needs to die."
"There's some strange guy stealing my hubcaps. where's my gun?"

We've reached a point where we've become completely unreasonable, irrational and uncompassionate. Everyone's out to screw us and take our shit, but we know how to counter it... death!

[furrylitldevil]

179. Has anyone noticed

That this issue wasn't discussed as much during the Clinton Administration? I mean, there were definitely tensions between the gun enthusiasts and people who use their brains, but it seems to me that this issue has been more steady ever since Bush took over. It could just be that I am noticing the argument more now than I have in the past, so I was wondering if anyone else had noticed the same thing.

[DoNotRefill]

180. actually, there's an old saying...

that says "God created man. Colonel Colt made all men equal."

Guns are useful to allow the weak to defend themselves against the strong.

A woman weighing 110 pounds wouldn't stand much of a chance if attacked by a 300 pound biker if she was unarmed, and he was unarmed too, would she?

A gun can be an equalizer, enabling the weak to meet the strong on almost even terms instead of grossly unequal terms.

[EV1Ltimm]

181. good call n/t