OK, I am officially a MIHOPer now

[worldgonekrazy]

All this time I have been a firm believer of LIHOP theory, believing that nobody (not even the Bush admin) could be evil enough to actually orchestrate 9/11 from the inside.

But then I read this article:

http://tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=38

And I did some digging into the collapse of WTC #7. You can find some links from the above article if you are interested in looking yourself.

WTC #7 smacks of a controlled demolition. Its collapse came out of nowhere. If it truly had been burning for seven hours before collapsing don't you think that a) firemen would have tried to do something about it or b) at least video footage would show some flames or smoke coming from the building?

You can check out video footage from the above links and it simply isn't there. It just collapsed. Imploded one might say.

What was in WTC #7? Only some highly sensitive SEC documents pertaining to widespread corporate fraud (such as WorldCom and Enron). Oh yeah, then there was also documented evidence of the United States and the Bushes dealing with, among others, Saddam Hussein, the Saudi Royal family, OBL, and al-Qaeda. Such documents could have looked pretty bad had they been released in the wars following 9/11.

It just fucking stinks to all hell.

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. Good Morning! Tea? Croissant?

:hi:

[ComerPerro]

2. Im still more of a fan of LIHOP, but

A very loose version of LIHOP. You know, something along the lines of the Saudis telling the Bushes exactly what was coming, and then the Bushes making sure that everything went the way it was supposed to.
Is that LIHOP or MIHOP?
Who gives a shit. Its a horrific thing to do to anyone, especially to your own citizens.

[worldgonekrazy]

5. Yeah that used to be my thinking as well

And is, in my opinion, AT LEAST what went on. But as I have said above, I now believe it is something even worse. I suspect the whole fucking thing was orchestrated by the gov't.

But to answer your question, I would say that it is a bit of both MIHOP and LIHOP. They knew that it was going to happen, which is the LIHOP component, but also intervened to make sure it would be successful, which is the MIHOP component. I think they went beyond that though and added some components of their own.

But then I get to thinking: how WERE those planes hijacked? I know hindsight is 20/20 but the more I think about it the more it just seems COMPLETELY unreasonable that people could hijack a plane with BOX CUTTERS. Think about it. We're not talking guns or explosives. We're not even talking knives. Box cutters.

[aquart]

11. They SAID they had bombs.

A standard hijacking scenario would have led to most passengers surviving. It just wouldn't have been all that difficult because nobody was willing to fight them to the death because they weren't expecting a suicide mission.

I wouldn't try it now, really I wouldn't. The passengers will attack and kill.

[worldgonekrazy]

33. I agree up to a point

But what about when the hijackers killed the flight attendants (as was allegedly reported by passengers on the planes)? Or how about when they busted into the cockpit and killed or did whatever to the pilots? I would think that at some point it must have become quite clear it was not your standard hijacking.

[i_am_not_john_galt]

3. How many people would have to be "in" on this kind of conspiracy?

I mean you have the parties involved in hijacking the planes, the security people who had to pass them through, then a bunch of people to set charges for the demo of the buildings (the same site claims there are demo charges going off in the main buildings), all the people to look the other way, etc. In my view no way a conspiricy this vile and this large could hold.

[worldgonekrazy]

7. That is a popular opinion

But I think a large number of people COULD be involved. In fact I think more were involved then you list. Jeb Bush in Florida called in the national guard to respond to terrorist attacks 5 days before 9/11. FEMA was in New York to respond to the terrorist attacks on 9/10. Many of the people involved probably didn't know the big plan (they each just had their small part to do), so that is part of it.

[nostamj]

13. FEMA was in New York to respond to the terrorist attacks on 9/10

dead wrong and debunked YEARS ago.

it was a simple mistatement by a tired FEMA official.

and Jebby's NG announcement was routine.

no meat in either of these herrings

PLENTY of meat in the serious inquiries though.

everyone in the south tower *should* have survived. the federal government KNEW it was terror and did not advise NYC officials, so, the poor workers in WTC2 (inc. Kristen B. husband) were told to go back to their offices...where they DIED.

[worldgonekrazy]

22. If you are right, there are still plenty of other damaging facts

Those were just a few I drummed up off the top of my head.

What about the Bush Administration blatantly ignoring repeated and specific warnings from a number of foreign governments?

What about Ashcroft deciding to stop civilian airliners earlier that summer because of the danger it posed?

What about the fact that NORAD was evidently stood down, as no fighter jets scrambled to intercept the hijacked planes DESPITE plenty of time to do so?

What about the fact that the jet that hit the Pentagon just happened to strike an empty wing that was being renovated?

And so on.

Some of them may very well be coincidences, but taken together as a whole it is just too incredible to believe.

[nostamj]

26. aside from the last point

these I have little argument with.

your previous post containted long-discounted tin

try this:

bushco planned for and expected 'conventional hijackings'

their business partners, the saudis, provided the "talent"

but, they got double-crossed and the hijackings were NOT 'conventional'

now, if Andy Card had said: THEY FUCKED US

would *'d reaction make more sense?

[worldgonekrazy]

32. I think it was the Saudi's that got double crossed

And not the other way around. I think they planned hijackings and the Bush's found out about it, but then they thought "well we can really make something of this" and took it to a whole other level. Think about it: if some planes had been hijacked by a rag tag team of radical idiots and then, say, flown out of the U.S....would the war in Afghanistan or Iraq have been "justified" in the eyes of the public? how about the Patriot Act or the Patriot Act II? Could W have wrapped himself in the flag and used it to deflect a host of very legitimate criticisms? No fucking way. The Bush Administration saw an opportunity and capitalized on it.

[eek]

64. which is exactly how obl's plan was explained

at the time.
"Many of the people involved probably didn't know the big plan (they each just had their small part to do), so that is part of it."


Don't recall where or when but it was certainly reported tha al quaida/obl gave each a specific job to do. Like a factory assembly line, sorta.

Think about if you were doing assembly work, you stayed in the "attach this screw to that doodad" but were never even told what the final product was. You might assume it was part of a car, an air conditioner, a washing machine but really - how would you know ?


"Many of the people involved probably didn't know the big plan (they each just had their small part to do), so that is part of it."

[mmm]

8. You would need very few with the abilty to connect all the dots

he bit players cannot see the puppet master

[i_am_not_john_galt]

10. yeah, but they'd be coming out after the fact

[ComerPerro]

14. yes, but as soon as they did

they would start getting anthrax in the mail.

[worldgonekrazy]

23. Exactly

They were warned.

I am willing to bet that there are some out there who intended to not heed the warning and were subsequently "disappeared" or "commited suicide"

[leftofthedial]

21. So you're more comfotable with a vastly LARGER number

of people all coincidentally just accidentally screwing up/turning a blind eye/failing to do what they are trained to do/refusing to act, all at the same moment. Yeah, that makes way more sense. And WTC7 just fell down out of sympathy with the rest of the devastation.

Or put another way . . .

. . . because it would have required a vast conspiracy, thousands of people keeping a secret, certainly much too large and vile a conspiracy to hold, the Holocaust never happened.

[worldgonekrazy]

24. Great line

And WTC7 just fell down out of sympathy with the rest of the devastation.

I don't use the LOL much, but in this case it holds true.

And BTW, I love the Holocaust analogy. 12 million people died in that conspiracy before it was stopped, so suddenly 3,000 deaths doesn't seem so large.

[grannylib]

62. I agree, excellent point indeed. I really would not put anything past

these people; the corruption and lies and dirty deals run so damn deep it's truly frightening.

[frylock]

31. the 'web of coincidence' theory as i like to refer to it

[rman]

53. like the mafia, spooks and terrorists; "cells", "need-to-know basis"

So even though many may take part in the sceme, not all of them know everything about what everyone else is doing. In that sense it is not 'one big conspiracy' and it doesn't have to be.
I don't see why this coudn't work on a large scale, globally even.

If you'd want to plant demo charges, you do that when nobody is around.
And certainly the vileness of a conspiracy is not a factor in its feasibility; that argument is along the lines of "people couldn't be that evil".

[mmm]

4. I think Bush and friends had their hands directly in the baking of the pie

There are many many conspiracy theories on the matter.
I cannot prove or disprove any of those.
Still, I am completely convinced that Bush is guilty of the crime.
What is more, I believe that when Bush and his lockstep buddies get together, they joke about it... and laugh till they spit teeth.

[Cleita]

6. If you want to make a stretch and compare it to the

Reichstag fire, which sealed Hitler's dictatorship in Germany, there is evidence that although the fire was set by a pyromaniac, he was helped by the Nazi's, who made sure he gained access. Then they set simultaneous fires in different places in the building as well. Empty gas cans were found in various locations. Experts agree that the the fire set by the Dutch fire bug wouldn't have spread as quickly or been as destructive if he hadn't had considerable help.

[worldgonekrazy]

25. I don't think it is a stretch at all

I personally think that WTC #7 was purposefully demolished by the BFEE. I think that they and they alone did that part. But 9/11 taken as a whole very much fits the Reichstag fire analogy you outlined.

[maggrwaggr]

9. I have a real problem with any "controlled demolition" theory

Because there are very few people who know how to do that and they would have to be contracted and they're not with the CIA AND the way they would have to do it would be noticed by pretty much everybody who worked in the building AND

it's just stupid.

The impacts that occurred near the WTC7 after the collapse of the other two buildings undoubtedly destroyed the foundation of WTC7. New York ain't built on solid ground you know, it's all tunnels and pipes and basements down there.

[worldgonekrazy]

27. You don't think the BFEE has spooks that can do controlled demolition?

I do. Its not THAT hard of a thing to do. Somebody could easily be trained to do it and then do the job from the inside.

Furthermore, EVEN if they had to contract out to do it that doesn't mean they wouldn't. How about that clean up company (Controlled Demolition might actually be their name I think) that carted all the rubble away practically before the smoke cleared? This is a company based out of Oklahoma (they cleaned up the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing as well) and yet they had to be brought all the way to New York to do this clean up? There wasn't anybody closer that could have done just as good of a job? And why did it have to be done right away before ANYONE had a chance to investigate the rubble?

[maggrwaggr]

50. why do I bother?

do you have any idea what you're talking about?

[jmcgowanjm]

40. Calculations on the Possible Use of Thermite

to Melt Sections of the WTC Core Columns

Subjectively, for this author, several subevents
of the WTC collapses stand out: the reported seismic
spikes associated with the collapses; the observed
near free-fall times of collapse; the pyroclastic clouds
of debris; and the pools of molten steel found in the
basement of the WTC tower complex, steel still warm
weeks after 9-11


http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=22

[rman]

54. like army engineers couldn't set these charges

if those are with a privitized army it's even easier.

[nostamj]

12. oh please....

WTC #7 smacks of a controlled demolition. Its collapse came out of nowhere. If it truly had been burning for seven hours before collapsing don't you think that a) firemen would have tried to do something about it or b) at least video footage would show some flames or smoke coming from the building?

it did not come out of nowhere. the building burned for 7 hours. i heard the reports all day (i was in NYC)

uh, firemen were a little bit pre-occupied with the COLLAPSE OF TWO 110 STORY BUILDINGS (which killed many of their men and destroyed lots of equipment.

it was full of diesel fuel stored for 'emergencies' (oops!) this is the building that Guiliani was almost trapped in when the North Tower came down and SEVERELY damaged the building.

do you seriously believe that seven hours after the towers came down they were doing 'controlled detonations' in a building that had been burning?

there are serious questions about the events of 9/11, this is not one of them in my considered opinion.

were the other 5 buildings destroyed that day demolished too?

you believe that they organized multi-hijackings and (just in case) rigged the building to implode as well?

you believe that they hijacked 4 planes but diverted the 'pentagon' plane and fired a missle at it instead? were the passengers loaded onto flight 93 for the "let's roll" crash in PA

want the truth about 9/11? i got this from Arlen Spector:

there was only one hijacked plane. it went through Tower One and circled back to go through Tower Two, it then proceeded on to the Pentagon where it fired a missle into the Pentagon before crashing in PA. before crashing, it sent radio signals to the 'controlled demolition' charges placed in Tower One, Two, WTC7 and all the other building destroyed that day. before crashing in PA it also released a carrier pigeon which dropped Atta's passport safely on the rubble.

i firmly believe in LIHOP
i just as firmly believe that fringe scenerios like this distract the important discourse regarding 9/11

when Kristin Breitweiser (or any of the other victim activists) embrace these angles, maybe i'll take it seriously.

WTC7 burned and collapsed.

and now, I will be reflexively flamed... <sigh>

on edit: like I want to be flamed for typos too!

[worldgonekrazy]

28. You won't be flamed...you make a valid argument

Perhaps this is all disinformation to distract from what really happened (ie LIHOP). I completely understand what you are saying and honestly about a month ago I would have probably written a very similar post.

But I don't really appreciate you putting words in my mouth. I don't think a missile hit the Pentagon. I don't think there was only one hijacked plane.

And I don't think the other buildings were rigged to explode, though I can see why some people think that. I would point out, however, that it would be EXTREMELY hard for a novice pilot who, by all accounts, flunked out of flight school to execute such a maneuver that would have been necessary to hit the towers with the plane. Not only do I think such a person would not be able to hit the towers at all, I also think it is amost downright impossible for them to have hit it in the perfect spot (dead center) once, yet alone TWICE. If they had not hit directly where they did much of the damage would have been contained and the buildings would not have burned hot enough to collapse. So explain that one to me.

[nostamj]

37. i did not intend to put 'words into your mouth

i hoped it was clear that i was doing a 'riff' on fringe 9/11 CT.

"the perfect spot" what are you talking about?

in the North Tower it was 'centered' on the face of the Tower

in the South Tower, it certainly was NOT 'dead center'

in both cases, it was enough

please do a little tin-free investigation of the damage to the cores of both buildings. (these cores, which contained both the elevators and the staircases) were interior to the outer frame which was significantly damaged in both buildings.

given the structure of both towers, the pancaking is no a surprise. it was in the design that the buildings, IF they were to fall, would fall DOWN and not OVER. that's common sense.

the damage was NOT contained. it extended over the INNER and OUTER support structures in both towers.

they were never designed to survive the impact of a fully loaded commercial airliner.

they fell, from their points of impact, because that is what they were designed to do.

i believe bushco was PUNKED on 9/11 but I need NO stretches of physics or logic to be convinced that LIHOP is a fact

[worldgonekrazy]

39. To answer your questions

First of all, unless this has been debunked without my knowledge, the designers of the WTC did in fact boast that it could withstand the impact of a 747. They specifically said that.

Now, where they were wrong, is that they were not taking into account the fire that was caused by the burning jet fuel. What I mean when I refer to "the perfect spot" is that if the jets had not hit the towers dead on (or very close to that) much of the fuel probably would have been spilled OUTSIDE of the building (imagine if the planes had hit the corner for example) and thus the fire would not have burned hot enough to cause the significant weakening fo the steel structures that led to the collapse.

And as for the damage not being contained, that is precisely my point. The damage could have and would have been much more likely to be contained had the jets not struck where they did.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying controlled demolition. I believe someone else was flying those planes or, much more likely, they were being remote controlled. The technology exists (see Global Hawk) and could easily be fitted to a 747.

[nostamj]

45. "withstand the impact of a 747" sorry, but, nope!

at the time the Towers were designed, airliners of the size and fuel load that impacted on 9/11 did not exist....

"contained" issue.

Tower One, center.
Tower Two, off-center.

same damage. total collapse. (note: WTC2 *almost* fell OVER rather than DOWN. bless gravity!

(i know global hawk. and who knows who was behind the controls?

[Sterling]

36. Tell em what was in b7 nost.

I disagree that b7 can be dismissed out of hand. There is more to the story than you are telling. I also don't remember a building ever pancacking from a fire.

[jmcgowanjm]

44. the term "progressive collapse" didnot exist before 911

Noone has been able to reproduce it.

Also pancaking would take more time.
WTC1, 2 and 7 are clocked at almost freefall
time.

[jmcgowanjm]

41. i heard the reports all day

I also, and I kept thinking, if the buildings about to fall,
this doesn't happen everday, why isn't ther a live feed
coming from WTC7?

[jmcgowanjm]

43. Guiliani was almost trapped in...

Giuliani was told to evacuate w/ firemen NYPD,
on the 78th floor -WTC1or 2-saying fires manageable, bring
up engine co.s.

Giuliani was hearing this and someone-he can't remember
who -says to evacuate.

Why? Before 911, no skyscraper
has ever collapsed due to fire.

Why would Giuliani listen to a nobody, who's info
conflicted w/ everything going on at the time?

[GRClarkesq]

15. Whats this stuff about a "missle" hitting the Pentagon?

I must not be cruising the conspiracy threads enough.

[nostamj]

17. some people believe

that no plane hit the pentagon...

google "pentagon plane" or check out the 9/11 forum, (but only if your :tinfoilhat: has been reinforced)

[Solomon]

66. It's not that some people believe that no plane hit the pentagon,

the question is whether a 747 or 757 hit the pentagon. As one who has seen the pictures of firemen trying to put out the fire for twenty minutes while the wall was still standing, I have my doubts too. All of the pictures published showed the wall after it had collapsed and people looking at it said, "oh yeah, that looks like a 747 hit the pentagon." But these same people are mystified if you show them pictures of the wall still standing after impact. Maybe planes can totally disintegrate after hitting a wall. But there usually is a lot of debris in a plane crash.

My theory on why we have not heard the black boxes of any of the planes, - the pilots were yelling that they could not control planes.

:tinfoilhat:

[worldgonekrazy]

29. Its disinformation, IMO

I think it was put out there by those that were involved in the conspiracy in order to discredit those that tried to unveil it. If you believe in every conspiracy theory on 9/11 you are wrong, because in truth only one of them can be accurate.

[jmcgowanjm]

46. The Missing Wing

The initial (pre-collapse) hole made by the alleged
impact on the ground floor of Wedge One of the
building is too small to admit an entire Boeing 757.
In order to decide whether or not a Boeing 757
(or aircraft of comparable size) struck the Pentagon
on the morning in question, a comprehensive review
of all the debris and other physical evidence is hardly necessary. It turns out that a study of the wings alone
suffices for the purpose.

http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3

[Q3JR4]

16. I'm confused....

what does MIHOP and LIHOP mean again?

:shrug:

[nostamj]

18. Let It Happen On Purpose

Made It Happen On Purpose

[Q3JR4]

68. Oooooh

ty.

:bounce:

[Minstrel Boy]

19. Why I'm MIHOP

If they are going to let it happen, they are not going to leave it up to the 19. It's too much a gamble. They are going to want to manage the event, minimize casualties and damage, but maximize the world-changing spectacle.

Case in point, Flight 77 and the Pentagon.

Hani Hanjour, we're told, was the pilot. He was so unskilled, he'd been denied a Cessna in mid-August 2001. He'd tried to learn to fly for years, but his instructor found him hopeless.

Yet three weeks later, Hanjour is said to have piloted a commercial airliner at 500 miles per hour so aerobatically a flight controller believed she was following the path of an F-18, perform a 270 degree spiralling descent of 5,000 feet over Washington in a matter of seconds, going out of his way to hit the Navy side of the five-storey high Pentagon: the one side which was virtually empty and undergoing reconstruction, and the only side whose exterior wall had been hardened to withstand attack.

It's bad enough Hanjour couldn't fly a single-engine Cessna. But the extremely sophisticated to turn 270 degrees and line up with the one side of the Pentagon which was practically unoccupied, well, that doesn't sound to me like letting it happen.

A recent thread exploring this, with some interesting links:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=976740

[worldgonekrazy]

30. On top of that

As I said in a post above, what about the two planes hitting the twin towers? They had to hit exactly the right spot to inflict maximum damage and bring down the towers (thereby "maximizing the spectacle"). Yet those alleged terrorists ALSO flunked out of flight school. By all accounts, that would have been an incredibly hard maneuver to execute ONCE, yet alone TWICE by novice (and that is being nice) pilots.

No sir, experts were definitely involved.

[goforit]

48. Worldgonekrazy.......Welcome aboard!!!....

I was an instant Mihop early on when 3 weeks after 911
I read about Cheney's dealing with the Taliban 2 months prior to 911 and the connection of of Enron's desire to pipeline Afaghanistan for energy reasons. Talibans wouldn't budge and off the PNAC went.

Carpet-bombing all that stood in their way using a "wag the dog" 911
to have reason to attack.

There is at least 300 definite pieces of mihop evidence all
pointing in one direction.

Yep, it's time to clean house alright.

[JHB]

60. Incerdibly hard?

As I said in a post above, what about the two planes hitting the twin towers? They had to hit exactly the right spot to inflict maximum damage and bring down the towers (thereby "maximizing the spectacle"). Yet those alleged terrorists ALSO flunked out of flight school. By all accounts, that would have been an incredibly hard maneuver to execute ONCE, yet alone TWICE by novice (and that is being nice) pilots.

How on earth do you figure it was hard to hit the Towers? It was a crystal clear day, with mild winds.From the air the towers would have been visible for nearly 100 miles. All they had to do was drop to the right altitude and point the nose in the right direction.

[JHB]

59. Perhapse it's useless to suggest this here, but...

...has anyone considered the possibility that his (the Pentogon plane pilot's) piloting wasn't so hot, but he lucked out? ("lucked out" for him, that is.)

[Minstrel Boy]

61. speaking of "luck", have you read 9/11 widow Mindy Kleinberg's

statement to the 9/11 commission?

But first, Hanjour's "luck":

Three weeks before 9/11, a Cessna such as this was beyond his ability:


Yet on 9/11, without ever having before piloted a jet aircraft, Hanjour flies a 767 at 500 miles per hour, managing a 270 degree spiralling descent of 5,000 feet to plant the jet in the ground floor of the Pentagon.

A 767 cockpit:


"Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm, possibly one of the hijackers. Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move that is considerably less than obvious."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A14365-2001Sep11¬Found=true

And Hanjour wasn't the only one who got "lucky" on 9/11, and 9/11 wasn't the first day for the hijackers' "luck."

Now, give Mindy Kleinberg a listen on their "luck". (Her statement is public domain, so I'm reproducing more than four paragraphs):

The Theory of Luck

With regard to the 9/11 attacks, it has been said that the intelligence agencies have to be right 100% of the time and the terrorists only have to get lucky once. This explanation for the devastating attacks of September 11th, simple on its face, is wrong in its value. Because the 9/11 terrorists were not just lucky once: they were lucky over and over again. Allow me to illustrate.

The SEC
The terrorist's lucky streak began the week before September 11th with the Securities and Exchange Commission, or SEC. The SEC, in concert with the United States intelligence agencies, has sophisticated software programs that are used in "real-time" to watch both domestic and overseas markets to seek out trends that may indicate a present or future crime. In the week prior to September 11th both the SEC and U.S. intelligence agencies ignored one major stock market indicator, one that could have yielded valuable information with regard to the September 11th attacks.

On the Chicago Board Options Exchange during the week before September 11th, put options were purchased on American and United Airlines, the two airlines involved in the attacks. The investors who placed these orders were gambling that in the short term the stock prices of both Airlines would plummet. Never before on the Chicago Exchange were such large amounts of United and American Airlines options traded. These investors netted a profit of at least $5 million after the September 11th attacks.

Interestingly, the names of the investors remain undisclosed and the $5 million remains unclaimed in the Chicago Exchange account.

Why these aberrant trades were not discovered prior to 9/11? Who were the individuals who placed these trades? Have they been investigated? Who was responsible for monitoring these activities? Have those individuals been held responsible for their inaction?

The INS
Prior to 9/11, our US intelligence agencies should have stopped the 19 terrorists from entering this country for intelligence reasons, alone. However, their failure to do so in 19 instances does not negate the luck involved for the terrorists when it comes to their visa applications and our Immigration and Naturalization Service, or INS.

With regard to the INS, the terrorists got lucky 15 individual times, because 15 of the 19 hijackers' visas should have been unquestionably denied.

Most of the 19 hijackers were young, unmarried, and un-employed males. They were, in short, the "classic over-stay candidates". A seasoned former Consular officer stated in National Review magazine, "Single, idle young adults with no specific destination in the United States rarely get visas absent compelling circumstances."

Yet these 19 young single, unemployed, "classic overstay candidates still received their visas." I am holding in my hand the applications of the terrorists who killed my husband. All of these forms are incomplete and incorrect.

Some of the terrorists listed their means of support as simply "student" failing to then list the name and address of any school or institution. Others, when asked about their means of support for their stay in the US wrote "myself" and provided no further documentation. Some of the terrorists listed their destination in the US as simply "hotel" or "California" or "New York". One even listed his destination as "no".

Had the INS or State Department followed the law, at least 15 of the hijackers would have been denied visas and would not have been in the United States on September 11th, 2001.

Help us to understand how something as simple as reviewing forms for completeness could have been missed at least 15 times. How many more lucky terrorists gained unfettered access into this country? With no one being held accountable, how do know this still isn't happening?

Airline and Airport Security
On the morning of September 11th, the terrorists' luck commenced with airline and airport security. When the 19 hijackers went to purchase their tickets (with cash and/or credit cards) and to receive their boarding passes, nine were singled out and questioned through a screening process. Luckily for those nine terrorists, they passed the screening process and were allowed to continue on with their mission.

But, the terrorist's luck didn't end at the ticket counter; it also accompanied them through airport security, as well. Because how else would the hijackers get specifically contraband items such as box-cutters, pepper spray or, according to one FAA executive summary, a gun on those planes?

Finally, sadly for us, years of GAO recommendations to secure cockpit doors were ignored making it all too easy for the hijackers to gain access to the flight controls and carryout their suicide mission.

FAA and NORAD
Prior to 9/11, FAA and Department of Defense Manuals gave clear, comprehensive instructions on how to handle everything from minor emergencies to full blown hijackings.

These "protocols" were in place and were practiced regularly for a good reason--with heavily trafficked air space; airliners without radio and transponder contact are collisions and/or calamities waiting to happen.

Those protocols dictate that in the event of an emergency, the FAA is to notify NORAD. Once that notification takes place, it is then the responsibility of NORAD to scramble fighter-jets to intercept the errant plane(s). It is a matter of routine procedure for fighter-jets to "intercept" commercial airliners in order to regain contact with the pilot.

If that weren't protection enough, on September 11th, NEADS (or the North East Air Defense System dept of NORAD) was several days into a semiannual exercise known as "Vigilant Guardian". This meant that our North East Air Defense system was fully staffed. In short, key officers were manning the operation battle center, "fighter jets were cocked, loaded, and carrying extra gas on board."

Lucky for the terrorists none of this mattered on the morning of September 11th.

Let me illustrate using just flight 11 as an example.

American Airline Flight 11 departed from Boston Logan Airport at 7:45 a.m. The last routine communication between ground control and the plane occurred at 8:13 a.m. Between 8:13 and 8:20 a.m. Flight 11 became unresponsive to ground control. Additionally, radar indicated that the plane had deviated from its assigned path of flight. Soon thereafter, transponder contact was lost - (although planes can still be seen on radar - even without their transponders).

Two Flight 11 airline attendants had separately called American Airlines reporting a hijacking, the presence of weapons, and the infliction of injuries on passengers and crew. At this point, it would seem abundantly clear that Flight 11 was an emergency.

Yet, according to NORAD's official timeline, NORAD was not contacted until 20 minutes later at 8:40 a.m. Tragically the fighter jets were not deployed until 8:52 a.m. -- a full 32 minutes after the loss of contact with flight 11.

Why was there a delay in the FAA notifying NORAD? Why was there a delay in NORAD scrambling fighter jets? How is this possible when NEADS was fully staffed with planes at the ready and monitoring our Northeast airspace?

Flight's 175, 77 and 93 all had this same repeat pattern of delays in notification and delays in scrambling fighter jets. Delays that are unimaginable considering a plane had, by this time, already hit the WTC

Even more baffling for us is the fact that the fighter jets were not scrambled from the closest air force bases. For example, for the flight that hit the Pentagon, the jets were scrambled from Langley Air Force in Hampton, Virginia rather than Andrews Air Force Base right outside D.C. As a result, Washington skies remained wholly unprotected on the morning of September 11th. At 9:41 a.m. one hour and 11 minutes after the first plane was hijack confirmed by NORAD, Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. The fighter jets were still miles away. Why?

So the hijackers luck had continued. On September 11th both the FAA and NORAD deviated from standard emergency operating procedures. Who were the people that delayed the notification? Have they been questioned? In addition, the interceptor planes or fighter jets did not fly at their maximum speed.

Had the belatedly scrambled fighter jets flown at their maximum speed of engagement, MACH-12, they would have reached NYC and the Pentagon within moments of their deployment, intercepted the hijacked airliners before they could have hit their targets, and undoubtedly saved lives.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_kleinberg.htm

[Minstrel Boy]

20. "NYC 9-11 Truth Takes Back Ground Zero"

The Bush Regime Engineered 9-11 – Lessons from Activist Trenches
by Michael Kane

January 4th, 2003 -- ( FTW ) – The NYC Truth Movement permanently, and completely, took back Ground Zero from the Neo-Conservative false-patriotic agenda today. In true New York fashion, 911 Truth activists unveiled the now legendary banner, which read, “THE BUSH REGIME ENGINEERED 9-11” in front of the World Trade Center footprint.

At least 20 women over the age of 40, of all ethnic backgrounds said, “God bless you for being here”. Dozens of photos were taken by New Yorkers and tourists from all over the world (oddly enough, including tourists from Saudi Arabia), and people were dying to get our information. 90% of the people were open to hear what we had to say, 9% were not, and less than 1% were very frightened of us so they did what any frightened animal does, bark as loud as they can. Another small percentage of people disagreed with us whole-heartily, but chose to engage us in intelligent dialogue. This included off-duty military personnel, more on that later in this report.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/010404_nyc911new.html

[RBHam]

52. Great sign guys!

Funny that in NYC, where the attacks occurred you'd get suport, but if you waved that flag in Alabama? Good luck.

[frylock]

34. kix0r

:kick:

[Sterling]

35. I love the Aqua Teens!

#1 in the hood g.

[Terwilliger]

38. OH! EEK! STOP! You might offend some voters!!!!!!!

:nuke:

[mithnanthy]

42. I believe they MIHOP....

and I still can't sleep!

[TomNickell]

47. O' Please! Don't you guys EVER get tired?

<<If it truly had been burning for seven hours before collapsing don't you think that a) firemen would have tried to do something about it or b) at least video footage would show some flames or smoke coming from the building?>>

Don't you think if it -wasn't- burning, somebody would have noticed the anomaly at the time? Don't you think somebody would have noticed there wasn't any fire damage in the debris? Don't you think -maybe- those particular camera angles just didn't happen to see evidence of fire? Don't you think -maybe- a fair and objective search would find plenty of tape and eyewitnesses that would show there was a fire?

THEY LET IT BURN BECAUSE THERE WASN'T A DAMN THING THEY COULD DO ABOUT IT AND 200 FIREMEN WERE DEAD ALREADY.

And why-on-earth would some nasty agency go to the trouble of blowing up this building after hitting its neighbors with jetliners?

Jesus Holy Christ, Mother Mary, and Saint Pete and Good God! WHAT A STEAMING SMOKING PILE OF BROWN ORGANIC MATTER!

[bobbyboucher]

49. In your opinion.

The whole truth is not out by any stretch of the imagination. You don't have any idea what could have, or did, or might have happened any more than anyone else on this board. So save the condescension. A full investigation would not be pretty, so we will never get one.

It's easier for you to believe, I know.

[RBHam]

51. you again?

Mr Nickell can always be relied upon to find a "conspiracy thread", and with his usual bombast and elequentlly argued positions, can always be relied upon to follow the "official story" line. Of course he does let off a steam of venom at those of us who have researched this subject and have excellent reason to want to bring our findings to the public. What are you so afraid of? Aren't you on the side of the 9-11 widows who have filed a law suit against Pres. Bush and his Administration? Do you think that they are full of shit?

[Fight_n_back]

55. If Bush had planned it

then the planes would have missed the buildings. He has never done anything right in his entire life.

[rman]

56. Bush has guys that do the planning for him

-

[LunaC]

57. What pissed off the firefighters afterwards

was the fact that the remains of the WTC towers were sold for scrap without any testing/investigation. As with planes that crash, fire personnel want to study the debris to understand exactly what occured for future reference. Instead of allowing a re-creation/investigation, the evidence was shipped out as soon as possible.

Dr. Frederick W. Mowrer from the Fire Engineering department at the University of Maryland told the New York Times:
"I find the speed with which important evidence has been removed and recycled to be appalling."

And for skeptics who refuse to believe in MIHOP, I offer you this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=976762

[Selwynn]

58. I am officially a WTBTSOOFCWCTNWDTPAMAMOOTASFT

If you're unfamiliar with the term, feel free to PM me. :D

[reprobate]

63. Just ask one question and you'll believe MIHOP

Just ask yourself: Who had the most to gain from the attack on 9/11?

That's right, contestants. The bush administration.

On 9/10 the bush numbers were at or below 50%. And sinking. Yet they blythly went about their business of enriching the rich and preparing america for fascism. Almost as if they knew something would happen that would take everybody's attention off the administration and provide a reason to take the PNAC plan to completion.

In a free country at least SOMEONE would have asked the above question. But we no longer live in a free country. We live in a nation where the major media knowingly participates in a treasonous conspiracy to keep the people from the truth. I miss the Old Republic.

[MI Cherie]

67. Who has benefited most?

Has anyone other than BushCo benefited anything?

:shrug:

:think:

[Snivi Yllom]

65. complete BS

WTC #7 was clearly burning on lower floors from footage that day. It was set on fire after the WTC towers collapsed. The lower floors were home to large back up diesel tanks to power generators. These sources of fuel in combination with several hours of fire against the lower non-redundant building columns doomed the building.