Just a little request when we talk about immigrants

[La_Serpiente]

Personally, I disagree with Bush's plan to give with amnesty to undocumented immigrants here in the US. It is not the amnesty I am opposed to - it is the manner in which the plan is set up. We should be funding the INS more so that immigrants could have more legal avenues to come into the US instead of just only funding programs to enforce current immigration laws. That way, they wouldn't have to work in the underground economies and would not live in fear from their oppresive bosses. Are the immigrants protected by US labor laws?

As a side note, I was flipping through the stations and landed on Scarborough. He had a guest from an organization called "The American Rennisance". The guest brought up the worst stereotypes about Mexicans and didn't say one good thing about them. He was basically being racist.

When we talk about human beings, let's not fall into that trap. I would expect talk like that guest on Scarborough to come from Free Republic, not Democratic Underground.

I haven't seen any instances of the above occuring here, but I am just giving the heads up. I know we here at DU are better than that.

So talk freely about immigration within the next coming days. It will be a great debate and I am sure everyone has some proactive input to add in.

Thanks :-)

Sinceramente,
La_Serpiente

Edit: take out offensive language.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Bush's plan is less about amnesty for the workers and more about

giving the businesses that broke the law and hired them a free pass..otherwise, they would be fined.

But yeah it would be nice to find a thread about non-white people that did not contain some cloaked or even uncloaked form of racism...I won't hold my breath.

[havocmom]

12. Yes, it's 'bush*s plan for amnesty for employers who use illegal workers'

First order of business: call it by what it really is and do not let the spin masters set the vocabulary.

[Mountainman]

2. I hope you take this the way I mean to say it.

I'm not being racist here. I spend most of my days with Hispanics in Arvin, CA where about half the people living there are illegals and the rest are legal immigrants or their parents were. I don't really mind the fact that there are illegal immigrants here. They don't really affect my life except the fact that their labor keeps produce prices down.

Many illegals do not live in houses. The live in canyons and in fields and where ever they cannot be seen. Some times they do urinate in someone's back yard, so do guys and gals drinking a lot of beer at a barbeque. Many of their kids go to school not being able to speak English and many have never really gone to school before so for their age they are way behind other kids in school. I guess some of them sell drugs to survive because it pays the bills and then some.
But I think the reasons these things happen is because we don't want to treat them as regular citizens. We could provide housing and good education and jobs for them but we don't want to.
The thing that brings them here to the San Joaquin Valley is the work that is offered to them makes living here better than living in Mexico and they are able to send money home to their families in Mexico.
Most of the children of illegals grow up to become regular middle class citizens just like you and me.
These people want the same things for their kids as we want for ours. A better life than we have had and actually they have all the family values the right-wingers support. They are family oriented, they work hard, and they are religious.

Our society is able to provide for us and for the immigrants if it really wanted to. There is enough wealth in this country to do it but the wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.

I really believe we should work for social justice for all people here. I believe in open boarders and social democracy. If we all stopped competing with each other and started working together for better lives for all of us we could all have a decent standard of living.

The racists on TV don't want to share the wealth and that is why the say what they do. Probably many of them get some of their wealth from the labors of illegals.

[La_Serpiente]

4. The thing I was really offended by

was that the man from American Rennisance was only looking at the worst in human beings. He just said crap - that is it. He didn't say that there are other great mexicans out there that have achieved success in American society.

And it is not just mexicans - there are great chinese, japanese, filipino, eastern european, indian, and the list goes on - that contributed many great things to this country. I go out to eat once in a while at this Vietnamese restraunt, and the taste it so delicious. It is always good to have different things and to see different perspectives.

I am not ignorant of the problems that immigrant groups face - it is just that I do not people to look at them based on those problems only.

[Mountainman]

5. I understand what you are saying and I agree

[La_Serpiente]

6. me too

I understand what you meant as well and I don't think you were being mean or malicious.

[Brokenlamp]

3. You mean....

"That way, they wouldn't have to work in the underground economies and would not live in fear from their oppresive bosses. "

You mean Bush's buddies?

I love how Bush can take something that should be good, and turn it into something so blatantly exploitive. Oh well, hopefully this will take some votes from Bush from the male blue-collar demographic that he seems to be so thoroughly dominating. As losing their jobs to someone illegally in america who does the same work for slave wages is their worst nightmare.

[SoCalDem]

7. People from all over the world come here for the SAME reasons

They want a better life..

If our country was truly concerned, they would take the measures necessary to stop the illegal immigrations, but they do NOT.. The "boss class" NEEDS cheap labor.. They love the illegal workers because they will work for next to nothing...they never call in sick.. they never complain when they are paid less that they deserve..the employers "know" that their cdocuments are probably fake, so lots of times they deduct the worker's share of the FICA and tax money, but they never match it and send it to Uncle Sam.. For the bosses, its a win-win situation.. The workers who are legal, dare not blow the whistle, or THEY will lose their jobs.. They have a everyday-in-your-face example of what kind of a person they work for, and they will rarely stand up for their "illegal" coworkers..

The illegals are also the ones who cut your grass, pick your fruit,sweep your patio, care for your kids.. (the figurative "your")

They are trying to get a toehold in America, so that THEIR kids will be better off than they are.. It does work, and even though these folks put MOST of what they earn into our econoomy, they are treated horribly..

Do I wish they could work here legally, and be protected?? Yes. Will it ever happen?..NO..

According to the "boss class", why would they pay union wages to workers when they can hire them for $5.00 a hour??

Unless the US is ready to "identify" every person living here with a national biometric ID, and enforce the hiring laws, we will always have "illegals" working here..

Unless you are mostly native american, someone in your family was probably an "illegal", or an immigrant at one point in time..

The de-funding of social programs only serves to heighten the "differences" in people and it's intentional on the part of the fundamentalists who are in charge.. They would never in a million years want people to band together ...against them..

The underpaid high school dropout with 3 minimum wage jobs has more in common with the "illegal immigrant" than he is willing to admit..

The launguage may be different, and they may look nothing alike, but they are both just cogs in the wheel..

[Mikimouse]

8. Bush's program will only add to the exploitation of...

immigrant workers. SoCal makes a great point below: "The underpaid high school dropout with 3 minimum wage jobs has more in common with the "illegal immigrant" than he is willing to admit..". A statistical analysis of attitudes toward immigrant rights, demonstrates that workers in the lowest occupational prestige categories tend to be significantly more tolerant of illegal immigrant rights than those in the immediate higher categories. As far as the fate of immigrant workers is concerned, a careful examination of the rate of illegal immigration shows that the rate has never been lower than the rate of legal immigration (stats only done for Mexico). Moreoever, even the McCarren-Walter Act, which effectively ended the Bracero program (after WWII), had an exclusion clause in it (the Texas Proviso) which made it legal for Texas farmers to provide shelter, food, and comfort to those workers without it being a violation of the law. Thus, in effect, the US has actually encouraged the illegal immigrants, but has done it covertly.
Illegal immigration provides illustration of two theoretical paradigms. First, in the unique geographic situation in which we find ourselves relative to Mexico, we might argue that illegal immigration provides an outlet for those who might otherwise not survive. On the other hand, it could also be argued that the US has not strictly enforced the immigration laws because of the economic impact that such enforcement would have on the American economy (keeping a large reserve labor force is consistent with Marxian theory).
I would suggest that immigration be encouraged, but with provisions: Employers with workers that fit Bush's definition of 'earned residency' must pay federally mandated minimum wage, or more (depending on the type of work). The children of such immigrants be allowed to learn in their native language, with classes for English as a second language part of the curriculum.
Many who criticize or denigrate immigrants do so only because they represent a convenient target, and a rationalization for 'explaining' what they perceive to be a great threat. The same thing happened in 1882, with the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act. Conveniently, this law was passed AFTER the completion of the railroad linking east and west.

[Loonman]

9. Plain and simple

I see blanket amnesty as rewarding criminal behaviour.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

10. i am offended because he is ONLY granting "temp" act to try & garnish

hispanic votes...this is even been stated by all the media whores

[KharmaTrain]

11. We Need To Redefine What's Happening

I also think this regime's blanket amnesty con is a two-fold game to protect the many large ranchers, farmers, meat-packers and other corporates who use a large number of Hispanics (buzzword = cheap), labor. This saves these companies a ton on paperwork since they always have to keep tabs on the citizenship status of its hires...and in a transient business like a factory, that's an expense. This wipes nearly 20 years of regulations off the books so if a company is caught with undocumented illegals, they get a free pass.

Of course the Rove machine will spin this as the GOOP reaching out to the Hispanics and how the Democrats are the one's keeping them down (a different spin on the Black Plantation con).

People are hazed by what the real money issues are here. There's the outflow of US corporates for cheap foreign factory labor and tax laws off shore for the manufacture of goods, and an import of cheap, mostly immigrant labor to provide the services that remain here. The illegals wouldn't come here if the money wasn't and the living conditions where they were were so miserable.

When I engage on this issue, I always ask the "real Murican" to think what it would take for him to leave this country...the social and economic destitute that must require to make a person take the risks of life and comfort to take a job cutting his lawn. Most cases you get a good 30 seconds of silence before the spin returns.

Cheers

[Gin]

13. Does the word "Illegal" mean anything anymore?

Legal immigrants wait a long time doing it the right way...are they fools? What does becoming a US citizen mean anymore? It is being devalued.

I am happy the cost of produce is cheaper...that may help offset the cost of the social services we all are paying for to subsidize these folks and their families.

Maybe Mexico should create jobs for it's citizens. They have gladly shifted the burden to all of us in the USA Inc.

[foreigncorrespondent]

14. Thank you, Gin.

Legal immigrants wait a long time doing it the right way

I will be waiting bloody years before I get right of passage into the United States to be with my partner in her country legally.

It does pain me to no end to see some of the comments I have seen here at DU over the past say eight months concerning immigrants, both legal and illegal.

A lot of LGBT couples ae FORCED to have their foreign partner stay in the United States illegally, because they have no other option. With what Bush* is doing, it will in fact give those LGBT couples a legal option to keep their partner in the country.

As someone who hates Bush* so much, but feels the pain of being torn away, not just from my partner, but a country I have loved for the longest of time this whole situation is tearing me apart.

You see, Sapphocrat and I decided a long time ago that if I was to stay in the United States it would be through a legal channel. We did not want to risk our relationship and do something illegal, because if we were caught, it would mean prison time for her, deportation for me, and most likely no other avenues for us to be together. Yet, with this so called amnesty Bush* is creating, had I stayed in the country illegally, it would have given me a right of passage, and Sapphocrat and I would be living together in the United States. That, would make life so much easier for us, and would take away a lot of the pain and guilt Sapphocrat feels, because her country has rejected me, treated her as a second class citizen, and the most important, the guilt she feels for things, because of family obligations.

And belive me, I do know how many here feel. Yes this will take jobs away from American citizens, hell Sapphocrat has been unemployed since the dot com crash of 2000, and I would love nothing more than for her to experience her own independance again by working. But what Bush*s propsal is actually planning on doing is giving the option of immigrants filling jobs that the American citizen doesn't want. (i.e: fruit picker, etc.)

I may get flamed because of what I am saying here, but you know what? I don't care. I have lived apart from Sapphocrat for near on two years now. In the last two years we have had the pleasure of each others company without computers and telephone lines between us for the grand total of 56 days. I am hurt. She is hurt. We are both tired of the forced separation, and because of the situation we are in, it has changed both our views concerning immigration, greatly.

[PsN2Wind]

15. You're right

about the costs of this "cheap labor. Those of us in the border states that pay a hell of a price to educate, medicate and incarcerate them know that it ain't that cheap.

[K8-EEE]

16. Exactly...

It isn't really cheap -- it's just cheap for the corporations.

Of course NAFTA didn't help, since all the Mexican factories have shut down and moved to Bush's fave country, CHINA! NAFTA was supposed to solve the immigration problem by creating all sorts of industry in Mexico, in fact, it did the opposite.

I've lived in L.A. all my life and I love the Mexican culture, I don't blame desperate people for doing whatever they have to do...I wish they weren't so exploited, in their country and in ours.

Hey if there were some reason that you had to cross the border to survive -- like WMD or whatever, you would do it legally or otherwise.

I would say that a majority of Mexicans here, if they could make a living wage in their home cities, would move back in a flash; we should be pressuring Mexico to stop exploiting its workers, and put the pressure on US companies like Walmart as well.