Is anyone else upset about Hillary Clinton's ethnic joke about Indians?

[_Jumper_]

I am South Asian and incensed at this. For me the you-own-a-gas-station "jokes" are a borderline slur. It also raises a disturbing question: what other groups does she target with ethnic jokes when the cameras aren't rolling?

This will cost her dearly. South Asians are a small group numerically but are affluent and an importance source for fundraising dollars. If Guilani runs against her he may win the backing of South Asians because of his handling of 9/11 and Hillary's joke.

[sallyseven]

1. Too bad

I hear a lot of polish jokes too. Lighten up. Most of the time it refers to cab drivers.

[_Jumper_]

3. Would your reaction be the same if Bill Frist had said this?

Something tells me it would be very different...

[YNGW]

11. Good Point.

If a RWer had said it, there would have been a dozen threads already on the topic. We shouldn't avoid giving it the same scrutinity just because it's Hillary. It's hypocritical to do so and makes it appear as though we put party over principle.

[papau]

53. Ok - I have given it the same scrutinity as a RW had said it - and no prob

Ok - I have given it the same scrutinity as a RW had said it - and no probem

Really no problem.

The only thing "wrong" was not putting the "you can learn a lot from those that serve us at gas stations" in front of the reference Ghandi pumping gas in St Louis, rather than after.

But why do some at DU want to make a mountain out of this molehill?

Are we putting GOP spin over party and principle?

[YNGW]

105. Are we?

>Are we putting GOP spin over party and principle?

I dunno. Of what I am confident is that if someone in the GOP had said the exact same thing in the exact same manner that Hillary did, you'd see a dozen or more threads here calling that person a racist and who knows what else. I'm not into double-standards. Maybe some others are.

[_Jumper_]

114. Amen

That double standard implies that racism is okay--as long is it comes from "our side". :scared:

[ma4t]

381. But that is the way it is

Racism is fine as long as it comes from "our side".

Take a look at the way Sen. Byrd (ex-Klansman) is respected. Would a sitting Republican ex-Klansman senator get a pass on his background?

Look at the way Al Sharpton is treated. Would his past diatribes against "the Jews" be ignored were he not a Democrat?

It may be sad to admit it but selective outrage is just as common on the left as it is on the right.

[Lindacooks]

305. Nope, because

actions speak louder than words. What I get upset about is the actions of the Repuke party that actually hurt people. Couple that with an ethnic joke and the outrage jumps by a factor of 1000. That's why you'd see a dozen threads about this if a repuke said that. Because it would actually match up with what they really think.

Sorry, I'm not about to beat up a Democrat over something like this, when people are hurting and dying every day because of the ACTIONS and deliberate lies, put into policy, of Repukes.

[YNGW]

311. Reply

>That's why you'd see a dozen threads about this if a repuke said that. Because it would actually match up with what they really think.

And they believe these little "gaffs" like Hillary's are how we really think and how we have really thought for a long time behind closed doors. And things like how our party has been telling inner-city minorities for decades we will help them, but instead we provide just enough to keep them in the ghetto, as evidence of our how our actions are deliberate lies that doesn't meet our rhetoric, and therefore is a reflection on how we really think. The pendulum swings both ways. There's essentially as many who voted for them as did for us in 2000. Seemingly little things like this can make a big difference. Our spokespeople need to be more conscientious not to give them any red meat and simply not give them the opportunity to use these things against us. I believe our people can do that if they would learn to think before they speak.

[_Jumper_]

326. Some of us do think that way

Some racists have shown their true colors in wake of this incident. It is truly sad to see that even among the most progressive people in America we have no shortage of racists>

[heidler]

348. In Indian culture do the have a current butt of jokes?

It's been blond women for quite time, but that's getting old and it might of passed on to another group. When I was a teenager it was the little moron and for a long time it was the Polish and the hillbillies. The so called jokes were the same except for the target. I would suspect that Hillary was trying to align herself with some rednecks, but see it's so embeded in US images that I just did it.

[_Jumper_]

352. Not really

n/t

[_Jumper_]

325. What actions?

What is her record on South Asians?

Actions by politicians are motivated by politics. Even Trent Lott did a few things for blacks. Rarely does a politician slip and reveal his or her true colors. I'll put more stock in a politician's verbal slip than some PR motived actions. How do we know Hillary doesn't often use ethnic and racial stereotypes when the cameras aren't rolling? Do you really think this is the first time she has ever made a prejudiced ethnic comment?

[Lindacooks]

370. What IS her record on South Asians?

It just doesn't matter to me. The point is, she is ON THE RIGHT SIDE, and other dems beating her up over a stupid comment is stupid.

"Even Trent Lott did a few things for blacks."

Really? Like what? And that's supposed to excuse the systematic repression of minorities and women by the Republican party for decades?

Actions, not words. Grow up.

[_Jumper_]

382. Right side?

So if David Duke became a Democrat you would support him?

Again, one can argue that the Democratic Party systematically represses Asians. Not everything is black and white. ;)

Trent Lott helped BET founder Robert Johnson secure a loan to start his network. He did a few other minor things. Every politician in America can argue that they have done a few things for group X.

What actions? List them. Thanks in advance...

[msolowes]

376. the dems did

The dems and naacp turned lotts turned lotts statment into a new race war

[Cocoa]

13. Hillary has more credibililty

if she said it, I believe her when she says it was a mistake, if Frist said it I would suspect racism.

[_Jumper_]

16. Why?

What has she done for South Asians? She is good regarding black issues but what is her record on other, less powerful minorities?

[Cocoa]

20. you tell me

I actually don't know the answer about the other minorities, I was speaking about racism in general.

So, does Hillary have a pattern of racism against the other minorities?

[_Jumper_]

25. I don't know

I hope someone here answers that. I haven't followed her much.

[Cocoa]

34. but your opinion is very strong...

you heard that she apologized, right?

[_Jumper_]

36. Has she apologized to South Asians?

?

Even if she does apologize that will not be enough for me. Any politician would "apologize" if they were caught making such a statement. If someone can show me something in her record that indicates that she is not prejudiced against South Asians, then I may change my mind regarding her.

[spooky3]

170. In your own link, the first paragraph notes she apologized

"St Louis - Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton has apologised for joking at the weekend that Mahatma Gandhi used to run a petrol station here, saying it was "a lame attempt at humour"."

I saw a video of her apology on TV. She quite clearly apologized. I'm not sure why you keep asking this?

She has always been a supporter of equal opportunity regardless of national origin or race. If her gaffe were consistent with a career of racism or national origin discrimination a la Trent Lott, that would bother me more. But obviously you're free to draw whatever you think are fair conclusions about her.

[_Jumper_]

176. She did NOT apologize to those that she demeaned

She issued a generic "apology" that was redolent of Lott's first "apology"--that 99% of DU'ers didn't accept.

How do we know that she is not racist? Do you think she doesn't use any other ethnic or racial jokes, that she has no other stereotypes? Maybe she is "against" discrimination to further her career. Plenty of politicans do that.

That being said, she is almost certainly anti-South Asian and likely anti-Asian (since both groups suffer from the same type of racism). Maybe she supports affirmative action to keep Asians down.

[Cocoa]

219. make up your mind

are you demanding an apology, or will you not accept any apology?

Demanding these two things simultaneously makes no sense. Do you even know why you're mad, or is this just Hillary-bashing?

[_Jumper_]

223. I will not accept it

She, like Lott, O'Reilly, et al. showed her true colors with that statement.

I bring up the issue of an apology in response to those that say that she regretted her remarks, but it will mean nothing to me.

If someone can show me something in her record that indicates that she is not anti-South Asian then I will change my mind about her.

[Cocoa]

226. how did you feel about Sen. Clinton before this?

am I wrong to guess you weren't a huge fan?

[_Jumper_]

233. I liked her

I never have criticized her on DU prior to today. I am a big fan of Bill Clinton.

[karabekian]

49. i agree

I don't get overly offended by words but I do think that if Bush had said this or an republican there would be calls for their resignation and outrage. Just seems like a strange double standard which puts party line over principal which is a bad thing.

[_Jumper_]

51. Right

The Freepers are condeming this. We are seeing a complete reversal of the Lott situation just because of party labels.

[Solomon]

317. Look Jumper. Don't vote for Hillary because she said

something stupid, ok? There's no double standard here. The repukes are trying to make it a double standard. A person with a record of helping minorites who cracks a stupid joke is not the same as a person with a racist record cracking a stupid joke. Sure, go ahead and criticize her, and rightly so, but this thing about everybody switching republican because of what she said is ridiculous.

Are you sure you're not looking for a reason to jump ship? I'm getting a little tired of your constant anti-affirmative action tirades.

[_Jumper_]

327. "Minorities"

Not all non-whites can be lumped into one group. Racist record? Who decides what is a racist record? One can argue that her record on affirmative action is racist against Asians. Just because you disagree with that doesn't mean it is wrong. :)

"Constant anti-affirmative action tirades". I rarely have talked about. Care to provide some samples of these alleged tirades?

People may switch if the GOP capitalizes on this. The only reason South Asians vote Democratic in the first place is because it is viewed as being tolerant and the GOP is viewed as being racist. If that disappears, they'll start to vote just like similarly situated whites.

[Printer70]

268. You have a point and I'm sorry you have to defend yourself

...on this thread. I agree with you 100% but you're critiquing someone with a lot of ardent followers. Unfortunately, they're more willing to attack the messenger than examine the problem with a Senator, any officeholder, making such crude ethnic remarks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Could you please post the actual quote?

For the record, I detest all racial and ethnic slurs not because people are NOT just joking but because it leads to this kind of alienation.

That's also why I hate phrases like Islamofascists..because they are extrapolated to mean ALL muslims....it is nice to know we can be sensitive though when it is our ethnicity.

[_Jumper_]

4. Link

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=22&art_id=vn20040107124651897C566994&set_id=1

<The New York Democrat made the remark at a fund-raiser for Senate candidate Nancy Farmer. Clinton introduced a quote from Gandhi by saying: "He ran a gas station down in St Louis.">

I detest them too. I became a Democrat because of the tolerance issue. I will never vote for anyone who uses ethnic, racial jokes or slurs.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. I will if they see the error of their ways and use it to educate others

rather than justify it.

Curious as to why you neglected to respond to the rest of my post.

[_Jumper_]

15. Response

Do you think the term "Nazi" can be extrapolated to mean all whites? What ethnicity are Muslims anyway?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. You answered a question with a question. Seems like an avoidance

of the issue. What ethnicity are all gas station attendants?

I would suspect Hillary who is CLEARLY NOT a bigot was taking a subtle SLAP at generalizations and did not make that clear...

[_Jumper_]

30. Response

Islamofascist cannnot be taken as an implication that all Muslims are terroists, just like the term fascist does not imply that all whites are fascists.

Muslims are not an ethnic group. Hence, an anti-Muslim statement is not an ethnic slur.

What ethnicity are gas station attendants? The last time I checked they came in all ethnicities.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. It is the same thing. Name calling designed to avoid the underlying issue

and dehumanize the object of the generalization.

Bigotry feeds off of generalizations. What you are, in essence, communicating is that if you make a generalization, it is defensible..and if Hillary makes it, it is not.
Thanks for clarifying the terms :D

At least Senator Clinton saw it and apologized:

Clinton - 1
Jumper - 0

[_Jumper_]

48. So what?

Islamofascists is as demeaning as the term "Xian fundie".
Have you ever denounced the use of that phrase?

Surely you agree that there is a difference between attacking someone because of their beliefs and because of their skin color or ethnic background.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. Yes I have where it was used to generalize or inflame

If one attacks, better to be on the basis of their actions.

BTW, you would have to stretch the truth like so much TAFFY to suggest Hillary was ATTACKING Asian Americans.

The article that you provided could NOT have quoted her entire statement on the matter.

Again. Hillary is NOT a bigot, made a mistake, apologized and unlike Bill Frist or ANY REPUBLICAN you can name, please demonstrate where she has ever used her vote to promote or enforce bigotry.

If you are truly offended, I DO have empathy.

I DO suspect otherwise.

[Printer70]

271. Empathy without Understanding is not Genuine

Attack is not the right word, perhaps. But when you carelessly mock people based on their ethnicity, and especially with a heroic figure like Gandhi central to ethnic pride, it is not only inexcusable bigotry, it gives rise for greater intolerance towawrds people of that ethnicity. It's one thing for a comedian to do it, it's another thing for a respectable Senator to legitimize this kind of stereotyping.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

287. Frankly I think that is why she MAY have drawn the comparison

TO have people SEE the juxtaposition. I give Hillary a bit more credit than to MOCK people..I think she MAY have been flushing that out. Remember we are talking about a woman who travelled the world and penned a book by the name of IT TAKES A VILLAGE.

I grant that she obscured her own point, but one can HARDLY accuse her of NOT having that understanding.

[Printer70]

290. I was referring to you

"Empathy without Understanding is not Genuine"

Your comment:

"If you are truly offended, I DO have empathy. I DO suspect otherwise."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

295. Maybe it is because I have read the threadstarters generalizations

of other groups which were also inflammatory to SOME in that group. Try reading all my posts in context, a talent that seems to be lacking when one responds to ONE post rather than the WHOLE thread.

[_Jumper_]

328. What other groups?

Radical Islamists? I am evil because I attacked terrorists and other violent religiouns fundies! I am sorry that I have no empathy for suicide bombers. :eyes:

Have you ever complained about the use of the terms "Xian fundie" and "Christian fundie"? If not, why not?

[Mairead]

61. I hold no brief for her, but I think she was taking the mickey out of

the terminally-ignorant, not out of Asians: she was mocking the people who don't even know who Gandhi-ji was.

I think your umbrage is misplaced.

[sushi]

201. I think you're right

A lot of Americans are ignorant. Their world is small, especially before 9/11.

[FDRrocks]

262. Absolutely...

I've never considered either of the Clintons to be good people. Just political opportunists. This combined with her senate record... well... fuck Hillary.

[sallyseven]

Too bad

I hear a lot of polish jokes too. Lighten up. Most of the time it refers to cab drivers.

[sallyseven]

2. Too bad

I hear a lot of polish jokes too. Lighten up. Most of the time it refers to cab drivers.

[Timefortruth]

5. Actually I didn't get the joke until you mentioned that it was about

east Indians.

Yeah, it was in poor taste. But the same joke is on the Simsons every week, that doesn't make it right, but it is wide-spread.

[MrBenchley]

8. What a load of crap!

Geeze, you mean somebody thinks all gas station owners are Indian? Or that somebody is pretending that there's something demeaning about owning a gas station?

Man, the Republicans are getting desperate.

[_Jumper_]

19. What if she had implied that all blacks are criminals?

Or that all Mexicans are illegal immigrants?

[MrBenchley]

56. Hell-ooo?

She didn't say ALL Indians were anything....nor is there, last time I looked, anything shameful or illegal about owning a gas station. In fact, isn't that the epitome of the American fucking dream....running your own business?

[_Jumper_]

64. She reinforced a stereotype

The jokes on this are rooted in European-American supremacy. If a non-white group achieves dominance in an area it is somehow wrong because only whites are worthy of doing great things.

Has she ever joked about the Senate or the legal profession being virtually all white? I doubt it.

[Cleita]

98. Actually, I don't know how many jokes

have been told about Jewish lawyers and accountants. So many, I'm sure you could find a book of them in the library.

[_Jumper_]

102. Jews

There are many jokes about Jewish success in certain fields. Do you agree with me that they are based on bigotry, since they implie that there is something run with non-WASP economic success?

[Cleita]

128. Well, I'm Hispanic and I still hear

people refer to us as fat and lazy, that we live in one room apartments with fifteen people because we are fat and lazy and won't learn English, that we take American jobs. A couple of weeks ago at the local veterinary office I sat next to a blond lady in the waiting room, having a pleasant conversation with her when she suddenly whispered to me about too many of those people (Hispanics) are starting to move into the area expecting to move into our neighborhoods and send their kids to our schools and that they are going to be demanding bilingual education and bring down the standards of our schools.

I was too speechless at the time to say anything and she was called into an examining room with her cat. Now, she didn't know I was Hispanic and I was truly offended. But see, if some Republican like Orrin Hatch said something like this, he would be considered a patriot. So I think you are showing a thin skin and are falling for the RW propaganda of criticizing the very least thing that Hillary says. If you want to follow their lockstep and not think for yourself, well what can I say. I think you should give her the benefit of the doubt that it was a careless remark and she saw that it was, and she apologized.

[_Jumper_]

137. Response

"But see, if some Republican like Orrin Hatch said something like this, he would be considered a patriot."

Not by most Americans, and certainly not at DU. We saw DU's reaction to Lott's comments.

"So I think you are showing a thin skin and are falling for the RW propaganda of criticizing the very least thing that Hillary says."

I have approximately 1,800 posts here. Find ONE post outside this thread where I criticized her.:)

"If you want to follow their lockstep and not think for yourself"

Yeah, I don't think for myself. I'm one of the handful of people here that have denounced both Lott and Hillary. Gee, maybe, just maybe, I am consistent on this issue...

"I think you should give her the benefit of the doubt that it was a careless remark and she saw that it was, and she apologized."

I don't give people benefit of that doubt just because they have a certain letter next to their name.

[MrBenchley]

147. How is that?

The three or four gas stations in this area are all owned by white guys....and they're pretty good guys, generally.

"If a non-white group achieves dominance in an area it is somehow wrong because only whites are worthy of doing great things. "
Sez who? That's certainly not even close to what Hillary said. You can't even say there was anything wrong with running a gas station..

[_Jumper_]

153. Consistency

That stereotype is wrong for the same reason stereotypes about "Jewish bankers" and "Jews in the media" are wrong.

[Beaker]

167. I found nothing wrong with what she said-

I don't get the impression at all that she meant to demean Indians, or to imply that they owned gas stations...had she said something like "he ran the local Quicki-mart", I might be a little more suspicious...but when I think of someone who owns a gas-station, an Indian, or any kind of asian is NOT what comes to my mind- I usually think of a white guy in oily coveralls, kinda like gomer pyle(although he only worked at the station) in the old andy griffith episodes.

This whole thing is much ado about nothing, and IMHO, Hillary had nothing to apologize, or feel ashamed about.

It's not her fault that some people are overly sensitive and most repukelicans are hyper-hypercritical and parsing of every word out of a Democrats mouth....DON'T PLAY INTO THEIR HANDS!!

[_Jumper_]

177. You obviously aren't a South Asian that lives in NY or NJ

I have news for you: thise stereotype is widespread in NY and NJ. It is bigoted because the implication is that there is something wrong with a non-white group being successful.

Overly sensititive? Did you say that to the blacks who attacked Lott, O'Reilly, Rush and Cubin? Did you say that to the Hispanics that attacked O'Reilly? We have lived with this kind of racism and we will not accept it, even if some think we are being "uppity".

For the record, I would have denounced her regardless of what group she commented about in this manner. I have denounced every instance of bigotry by national leaders during my time at DU and I am not going to let someone off the hook because they have a "D" next to their name.

You are right, most of the Republicans who are attacking her are being hypocritcal, but so are most of the Democrats who are defending her.

[Beaker]

188. "I would have denounced her regardless of what group..."

that's the point- she didn't comment on any group...she didn't even mention any "groups"...
some w--a-a-a-a-a-y oversensitive people really seem to have their panties in a huge wad over absolutely fucking nothing on this one.

[_Jumper_]

191. Yeah she didn't target any group

:eyes:

I guess O'Reilly didn't target any group when he made his hubcap comment.

[Beaker]

208. I'm not familiar with it, so I can't say-

I find OhReally to be irritating and irrelevent, so I don't pay much attention to what little I hear of him...HOWEVER- that doesn't change the fact that I didn't hear Hillary direct any barb at any ethnic group in the soundbite I heard- if she did, I'd appreciate if you could tell me exactly what it was...
In the quote I heard, she referred to Ghandi as being someone who once owned a gas station in St. Louis.(not Brooklyn, Newark, Albany, or Rochester...)
Speaking as someone who grew up about 20 miles from where Hillary grew up- when I hear the phrase "owned a gas station in St. Louis", I would think of the white guy in the greasy coveralls- if it were East St. Louis, it would be a black guy(probably bald) in the same coveralls...stereotypes? definitely. but in both cases the guy that enters my mind's eye is also someone who has a lot of smarts and enjoys being in business for himself, not someone that I'd look down on.

If New York is going to continue to allow it's storied tradition of welcoming carpetbaggers with open arms, they have to remember that many times those people may have different life experiences and perspectives than their own.

[_Jumper_]

211. She was talking about South Asians

One can argue that it was not a negative comment, but it was clearly directed at South Asians.

Why St. Louis? I believe it was because she was in the St. Louis area at the time.

[Beaker]

216. Not at all.

I don't see anything directed at any group.
She was joking about Ghandi being a name everyone recognized, as if he were famous for being a local businessman...nothing to see here, nothing to get dander up over. the people that are "truly upset" by this "outrage" are the oversensitive kind of nattering nabobs that give our party a bad name among common-sense types.

[_Jumper_]

225. You're entitled to your opinion

I'll just keep this in mind when you respond to a right-winger making a similar joke.;)

[Beaker]

236. I doubt I would...

me not paying attention to them and all, and not wearing any undies to get in a bunch in the first place...and all.

and Since I'll probably(and hopefully) never have the opportunity to vote for Mrs. Clinton, it's really no big whoop to me what she says anyway. :hi:

I just hate seeing her continually raked over the coals by the repukelickins for much ado about nuthin'...and it's even worse when people on our side get snookered into it too...:+

[Printer70]

272. Condescending

Yeah, people got "snookered" into it. It's not as if they're genuinely offended that she mocked the father of their homeland with a cheap ethnic stereotype. That couldn't be it.

[Beaker]

283. "...if they're genuinely offended..."

they have some serious self-image issues, if they think her comments were about them, or offensive, or meant to be offensive in any way shape or form; and perhaps counseling might even be advisable in some cases- living under continuous persecution complexes can lead to very unhappy lives.

[Printer70]

284. Blame the victim

I thought only bigots did that.

[Beaker]

306. blame the "victim"??????? what "victim"??????

Nobody was "victimized" by a single word that came out of her mouth.
the type of people who honestly consider themselves to be "victims" of Mrs. Clinton's "hate speech" are the kind of over-sensitive gutless wonders that the party can do without, and that the Democratic Party should definitely stop trying to bend over backwards to appease every single time they feel that their "feelings" have been viciously trampled, when it's obvious that it's not the case.

[Printer70]

357. Nonsense

You would be the first one carping if this was uttered by a Republican. I make no exceptions or excuses for this kind of behavior, even when it's done by a Democrat. Partisan lockstep benefits no one.

[Beaker]

361. Nonsense is right.

"You would be the first one carping if this was uttered by a Republican..."

what evidence do you have for an accusation like that? Homey don't play the phony hurt feelings over parsed semantics game, no matter who's got the mike...
But since you seem to think that you know me so well, I'd appreciate either an apology, or evidence to back up your groundless accusation.

unless of course you lack the requisite huevos, spinal as well as intestinal fortitude, and even a smidgen of diginity.

[Printer70]

368. Your character

tells me everything I need to know. The party leaders don't need sycophants, they need honest critics.

[Beaker]

369. Sooo...you're stereotyping me- that's an ugly habit...

that you should really try to cure yourself of, lest people see you as a bigot.

My several posts on this thread tell you "everything I need to know" about my character....

have you always been this shallow and judgemental about people whom you've never met?

[Printer70]

371. I see the problem

>"Sooo...you're stereotyping me- that's an ugly habit..."

>"My several posts on this thread tell you "everything I need to know" about my character...."

Now I understand why we're not have a meeting of the minds. You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word stereotype.

[Beaker]

374. we can't have a meeting of the minds when yours hasn't shown up.

you've never met me, you don't know one thing about me, personally- BUT- based on what few posts I've put up in this thread, you've stated that you know everything you need to about my "character", fitting me into your "perceived sycophant" box, and saying that I "would be the first one carping if this was uttered by a Republican", when you have absolutely zero evidence for making such a ludicrous and incorrect assumption about what my actions would be in a given situation.
You know nothing of me, or my character, and yet you have no problem applying the labels that you see fit...sounds like the actions of a classic stereotyping bigot.

BTW- what is it that you find so demeaning about owning a gas station, anyway?

[Printer70]

278. This is great

First, Indian-Americans deal with this cheap ethnic stereotype of the most important Indian in recent history. Next, for expressing some concern, they have their "panties in a huge wad" over nothing. Attack the victim. Way to go. You are my hero.

[Beaker]

281. thanks.

it's nice to be appreciated by someone :hi:

people who interpret her remark as being an etnic slur have their heads up their asses on this one.

[Printer70]

285. No, I'm afraid it's you this time

I wouldn't call Martin Luther King a guy who ate watermelon and chicken when he wasn't operating his pawn shop downtown and I wouldn't mock Gandhi as someone who worked at a gas station (hint, hint: like every other Indian).

[Beaker]

308. Ummm...around here(the midwest, where she was speaking)

Indians are not generally associated with gas station ownership...had she said that he was the manager of the 7-11, or the "kwicki-mart", or even the "Burger-King", you might have a point...
But she didn't, so you don't.

[_Jumper_]

329. Umm... she is from NY

In NY and NJ South Asians are associated with gas station ownership. Perhaps you should defer to those that actually live there and have seen this stereotype used firsthand...

[Beaker]

354. Bullshit. she's from park ridge IL-

If new York is going to continue to elect carpet-baggers, they have to learn to accept the fact that their chosen representatives may have different life-experiences and a slightly different background- culturally speaking, than the electorate that puts them in office.

[Printer70]

359. That makes it all better...

A cheap ethnic stereotype that didn't even get the laugh it "should have" because the regional audience was unfamiliar with it. Which raises an interesting philosophical question- if you tell a racist joke to a group that is unfamiliar with the racial stereotypes your joke is predicated on, is it still racist?

[Beaker]

363. it wasn't racist, and nothing about it needs to be made better-

that's the point.
some oversensitive types do need to get a life and a non-(or at least less-)defective set of sensibilities.
apparently, melanin content has absolutely no bearing on the thickness of skin...

[_Jumper_]

366. Melanin content?

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that South Asians come in all colors. However, I am sure you know better than those of us that are South Asian what is and isn't a racist comment directred toward us...

[sushi]

196. You are right

but things are changing and then we'll have equality. Btw, I read that India, and China, are going to "soar to the top."

[_Jumper_]

199. That is true

20-30 years from now I and other South Asians will probably look back at this incident and laugh.

China certainly is on the path to becoming a superpower. India can do it, but only if it is able to keep Hindu fundies in check and keep the nation somewhat united.

BTW, I am not an "ethnic prider" by any means. However, I realize that if you live in America and you aren't white you are defined by whatever the dominant group defines you as. In my case, that means I am tethered to the fortunes of other South Asians, and also Arabs and Iranians.

[sushi]

203. Try and laugh about it now

The future belongs to you. :-)

[Cleita]

89. Welcome to my world.

I have heard worse about my ethnicity. Implying that an ethnicity owns gas stations, to me, implies that they are hard working and aspire to the American dream.

[_Jumper_]

91. I disagree

That stereotype implies that there is something wrong with a non-white group doing well in a particular sector of the economy. I bet she has never "joked" about white dominance of the legal profession.

[Cleita]

95. If you are offended, so be it.

There is so much more to really be offended about, like the fact that you may be scapegoated by Homeland Security for having a name or looks that fits a terrorist profile.

[Printer70]

274. "If you are offended, so be it." - from someone who uses a Nazi...

...quote in their profile.

[blondeatlast]

103. How so???

My hubby is SA, and I sent the story to him. He couldn't care less about it.

[_Jumper_]

112. "Jewish bankers" "Jews in the media"

The same way stereotypes of disproportionate success by Jews imply that there is something wrong with it.

[Cleita]

117. Well, if you want to believe success implies that

there is something wrong with them, then I'm beginning to wonder if you are bigoted.

[_Jumper_]

121. No

Jokes and negative stereotypes made by people who think that of the group they are demeaning implies that there is something wrong with the demeaned group's success. Why do you think stereotypes about Jewish success in the media and financial world and about South Asian success in the medical field and gas station/convenience store field exist, but no stereotypes have been created by WASP's about their success? Answer: it is considered "right" and the "way things ought to be".

[Kathy in Cambridge]

125. WASPs are too uptight to pee in the shower

there's one for you! Nice to see you fighting the righteous fight to rid the world of ethnic jokes! :crazy:

[DoNotRefill]

229. You PEE in the SHOWER?!?!?

EWWWW!!!!!

Then why not wash your feet or face in the toilet bowl???

Showers are for showering in. Toilets are for peeing into.

If that makes me a WASP, so be it. Peeing in the shower is NASTY.

[Beaker]

239. if the drain was bigger, I'd crap in the shower.

and when I have diahhrea, the drain works just fine(except for the big hunks- but you just squish them with your toes and they go right down)
once you're done, clean-up's a breeze, since you're already in the shower.

[JVS]

261. You need a garbage disposal drain

[Beaker]

264. it's not as easy a thing as Seinfeld might make you believe...

the biggest problem being the amount of space and access needed underneath the tub to install something as big as a garbage disposal.

but back to the peeing in the shower thing- everybody has had it happen- the kind of shit that has the consistency of moist clay, that oozes out of your ass like so much warm and smelly play-doh, adhering to your butt cheeks and your thighs, and all attempts to remove it with toilet paper results in just smearing around and imedding pieces of shredded Charmin into it...in short- a nasty mess.
and what do you do?(hopefully, you're at home and not out on a date)

what can you do? you strip down, hop in the shower, and hose that thang down, naturally...so- what's the big difference between that, or the water that courses through the undercarriage area in any given shower, and taking a quick whiz(which is sterile to begin with)?

a drain is a drain is a drain...use it as you see fit.

[DoNotRefill]

293. Uhhhh....TMI....

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Beaker]

307. TMI?

AFAIK, that's an abbreviation I'm not familiar with.

[TOhioLiberal]

319. Hi Beaker!

TMI stands for Too Much Information...
Trekkerlass

[alwynsw]

254. This WASP pees in the shower

[Solomon]

321. Of course he's bigoted. Haven't you seen all of his threads.

He thinks that South Asians are discriminated against because there is affirmative action. There are a lot of South Asians darker than blacks here but they wouldn't even begin to consider themselves black. Oh no. They think they're better. That's why he hates affirmative action.

[sushi]

198. How about

"The Scottish are stingy?" To me it means financially smart! In fact a Bank of Scotland ad attracts clients with "We take good care of your money!"

[Blue_Roses]

171. just exactly what are you so offended about--

what she said or what you THINK she implied? Hillary is a very fair person and since you said you don't follow her much then take it from someone who does--she's fair and would never intentionally discriminate against any race or ethnicity.

[_Jumper_]

180. What do you think went through her mind when she made that statement?

She was using a demeaning ethnic stereotype just to get a few laughs! She is the only national Democratic politician who has promoted a racial or ethnic stereotype!

[DemLikr]

313. Why do you feel that running gas station is "demeaning?"

You are being hyper-hyper-sensitive and revelling in your exaggerated offended-ness...NEXT!

[_Jumper_]

333. All stereotypes are demeaning

n/t

[_Jumper_]

334. All stereotypes are demeaning

n/t

[alfredo]

182. Being a lawyer, she probably has. Seeing waves of immigrants, the

pattern is clear. The jobs nobody wants goes to them. It is neither good or bad. During the 70's and 80's, there were a lot of mid easterners in 7-11's. it was a living to get them through. One tells another he was able to find work at a certain job, and the pay is good enough. Whatever works. Even Ghandi may have had to work at a gas station until he got established in the community. He may have to work as a landscaper in the summer to help pay for passage for his family to join him.

A lot of Irish in New York became cops. It was a job open to them. A lot of SE Asians are in healthcare. A lot of African drive cabs. Whatever puts food on the table, is fine. Not everyone who recognizes that is doing it with bad intent. Each community has its own survival strategy. Going into retail is an easy way to get their foot in the door until they can find something more befitting their skills.

It is a running joke in America, not always mean spirited, but it is a recognition of the American society. We can't ignore that the latest wave of immigrants have gravitated to certain jobs. Look at where the Vietnamese went. Many went to the gulf coast and to the shrimp boats. They saw a niche, and exploited it. Some of the old time shrimpers were not happy, but that's the way it goes.

When we start cracking jokes about you, you have become one of us.

[_Jumper_]

184. Indians are the wealthiest ethnic group in America

3/5 of Indians have a college degree. So obviously not many of them are working at gas stations.

[alfredo]

195. But what do they do until the position opens at the university, or the

laboratory? they have just moved into a new town, costs of relocating drained reserves. Tuition is due for the eldest. The job at the university is good, but an extra paycheck would help. A job at a store or a gas station is just fine for now to get over the hump.


All work is honorable work.

[_Jumper_]

197. Good point

No one in my family has ever worked at a gas station or convenience store. You make a valid point, though. That does happen in some cases. Moreover, some South Asian immigrants do not have a college degree and a substantial share of them open up gas stations and convenience stores.

[alfredo]

257. OK, my dad's family had a skill that helped them get started.

they were musicians. Until they got recognized for other skills, playing music was how they survived.

[Timefortruth]

175. When I stereotype Asian Indians it is to place them in

intellectual professional jobs like chemistry, medicine or engineering. I suppose it is wrong to type anyone, but it is also why I didn't get the joke in the first place.

It may be that the only exposure some people have to immigrant Indians is at a carryout or hotel and that is why they have them in that classification. Even so, I'm not totally in agreement that that view is insulting. It casts that group as veryhardworking owners of small businesses.

I guess I need to rethink the issue.

[sushi]

206. I have read

that Indians are the smartest immigrant group in the US. And that in India a degree is practically a must. And that practically all Indian mothers want their daughters to get a college education and marry men with a college education.

[_Jumper_]

213. Response

"that Indians are the smartest immigrant group in the US."

Indians are no more or no less smarter than anyone else. They are the most educated ethnic group in America, though.

A degree in India and South Asia in general is a must to be economically successful but very few people have them there and a large portion of those that do emigrate. People do not expect others to have a college degree there. Those countries are still primarily agrarian societies and most people there become farmers so few people there aspire to have one.

What you say about Indian mothers is the case in America but not in India itself, since there are few men with college degrees here. Here they do aim for their daughter to marry someone with a college degree, especially a doctor. One reason why a high percentage of Indian-Americans become doctors is because if they wish to have an arranged marriage (and most of the second and third generation don't) they will have to be a doctor if they want to get the best offers.

[Printer70]

273. You hear worse...

...is this the "just deal with it" excuse. An ethnic stereotype is an ethnic sterotype, it doesn't matter if it's made by one ours.

[sushi]

194. People would know that it isn't true

Have you never made a joke that has hurt others, and if you could turn the clock back you wouldn't have said it? She was trying to be funny, realized her mistake, and apologized. She can not undo it.

[October]

316. Apples and Oranges

Now you're comparing "owning a gas station" to criminality?

I'm reading the entire thread this morning.

I was truly surprised to hear Hillary made such a remark. I'm reading her book, and in it, she speaks so well of Gandhi. Please read it. She's been through a lot in her life, and she is quite liberal in her beliefs, from what I've read. I find it difficult to believe she really harbors any racism in her heart.

Any one of us has said something regrettable or stupid in our lifetime -- fortunately for most of us, it was not under the bright lights. I'm not excusing her remark. But to compare her to Lott is a bit extreme because it took him FOREVER to even think he owed an apology. (Didn't he refuse initially?) Whereby she immediately realized she'd hurt others (and yes, herself politically).

[Printer70]

267. Rationalization

I could deal with a comedian using an ethnic stereotype to get a cheap laugh. But senior officeholders have a responsibility to a diverse constituency. And in many ways, they define what's off limits- hence the term "politically correct". When someone of her stature makes this remarks, over time it becomes fair-game to mock an Indian-American in this manner. It happens in subtle but offending ways.

[CatWoman]

6. do you watch The Simpsons?

if so, do you feel this way when they lampoon Apu?

Just curious.

Being black and the brunt of soooooooooooooooooooooo many jokes over the years, well, let's just say that my skin is thicker than a hippos :D

[_Jumper_]

12. The Simpsons are different

They attack everyone. Hillary singled out a group. Moreover, she is in a position of power, not just a TV show. If she were elected president I would not trust her reaction to a terrorist attack.

If Bill Frist had made a similar comment about blacks and crime wouldn't you be angry?

[CatWoman]

26. I despise Bill Frist for many reasons

primary among them what he did to cats.

[Cocoa]

18. I know an Indian that hates the Apu thing

I was shocked, this guy is not political in any way, but he hates the Simpson's because of Apu.

And my elderly father doesn't like the show due to Grampa Simpson.

I love the show, by the way. :-)

[Printer70]

280. No it isn't

If Trent Lott called Martin Luther King the guy that ate watermelon and chicken while not working the street corners, you'd be the first to protest.

[_Jumper_]

336. Right

But if someone has a "D" next to their name they can't be racist. Only Republicans can be racist.;)

[TNOE]

7. This seems pretty ridiculous

in the whole scheme of things. I think we've got way more important things to worry about - like Bush and 2004 election - maybe we can all concentrate on Hillary after November. Right now too many other irons in the fire for me.

[LTR]

10. It was a stupid joke

Bad move by Hil. Not even a funny joke.

Being Irish, I hear lots of nasty Irish jokes.

I only get offended when they're not funny.

[_Jumper_]

14. That is what O'Reilly said

I recall him being branded a racist here because of his hubcap "joke."

[MrBenchley]

58. Yeah but there's a BIG FUCKING difference

between saying somebody is "stealing hubcaps" and somebody is "running a gas station."

[_Jumper_]

131. Nope

There are different stereotypes for different groups. What would your reaction be if a Republican made a comment about "Mexicans picking berries"?

[MrBenchley]

152. Again!

"There are different stereotypes for different groups."
And there's anywhere on earth a stereotype about gas station-owning Indians? About gas station owners generally?

"What would your reaction be if a Republican made a comment about "Mexicans picking berries"?"
You mean like when O'Reilly threw out his "wetback" slur? DO let us know when you hear somebody slurring about Mexicans running a berry farm.

[_Jumper_]

155. Good example

We--correctly--attacked O'Reilly for his comment. He claims it was just a bad attempt at humor. Sound familar?:)

[BiggJawn]

75. Again, you imply that there is something "wrong"...

...with running a gas station.
Jumper, haven't you ever heard the saying "When you've dug youself a hole and you realize it, STOP DIGGING!"

STOP DIGGING! What's it gonna take? A gas station owner to come in here and ask you to stop embarrassing him?

[_Jumper_]

88. No

That steretype implies that there is something wrong with a non-white group dominating a segment of the American economy. It is rooted in the notion of European-American supremacy .

[BiggJawn]

124. What-Eh-VAH!

but it's ok for the Simpsons to have Apu, because they go after "everybody".

That's twisted and stupid. I gather from that if I'm nasty to everybody, I can't be racist because i'm not "singling out" any ONE group for abuse.

2 things:
First, you've dug yourself a hole you can't climb out of.

Secondly, I think this thread should be locked. Nothing's getting resolved here because you're all over the map with what does and does not offend you.

[_Jumper_]

130. Racial supremacy

The Simpsons do not imply that a certain race is superior; stereotypes such as Hillary's do.

"I gather from that if I'm nasty to everybody, I can't be racist because i'm not "singling out" any ONE group for abuse."

Look up the definition of racism.;)


"Secondly, I think this thread should be locked."

That is what FR did when some Freepers tried to denounce Lott...

[seventhson]

21. THAT is HYSTERICAL (your picture)!!!

I think Hillary was being an asshole.

I would still vote for her though any day.

An unpardonable offense. But she apologized and realized it was stupid and in very poor taste (actually it was obscene coming from her) - Anyone who thinks politicians who tell terrible ethnic jokes are worse than fascist like Guiliani and Bush who burn the wings off little brown angels globally, though, has misplaced priorities.

Hillary's gaffe reinforces European-American superiority and xenophobia (which reinforces Bush's fascsm). But this is a far less serious crime than actually dropping the chemicals and bombs on persons of color everywhere.

[_Jumper_]

24. Guiliani?

What has he done that is racist? I know Bush and co. are racist but there are some sane Republicans out there.

Did you accept Trent Lott's apology?

Misplaced priorities? My citizenship is held hostage by terrorists. In the event of a terrorist attack, I can be put into an internment camp at any moment. That is the #1 issue for me and I do not trust Hillary's judgement on this issue.

[Nazgul35]

17. I was extremely disappointed in Sen. Clinton...

and I could tell by the way she was speaking when she apologized she knew she f*cked up royally!

There is no place for this kind of nonsense in our party...Dean took alot of heat earlier for attending an event where some of the jokes were also racist...but he at least was critical when it came his turn to speak.....

But on the other hand, we live in a society of free speech, and that includes speech that we don't agree with!

You have a right to free speech but not freedom from being offended...living in a free society requires us to have a tough skin...in other words....the Nazi's have the right to march in Skokie....

Do what you must, but I would suggest that what is more important is what someone does, rather than what someone says...

So to sum up....I agree with you that it was a stupid remark....but on the other hand, I say suck it up....that's the cost of living in a free society and switching to the republicans (a party that actually supports racist policies) because of pique is rather idiotic...

but that's my two cents...

[_Jumper_]

22. She is a Democratic Senator

If Joe Schmoe had said this I wouldn't care little. However, she is very powerful and may become president one day.

Moreover, since she is a Democrat we as Democrats should hold her accountable. We shouldn't expect less of our leaders than we do of people like Lott, O'Reilly, Chambliss, et al.

I won't switch parties over this but if I had to choose between Giulani and her, I would back the former.

[K8-EEE]

23. Oh Come On....Like Guiliani Never Made A Racial Joke?

All right, everyone here who has never made a stupid joke, raise your hand....

If she apologizes profusely, let it go.

[_Jumper_]

27. Name one time he did

On 9/11 he showed some leadership on the issue of tolerance for brown people. He was the first leader to denounce the racist backlash. Why would I back a candidate who has suspect views of me? Would you support a candidate you feel may me racist against you?

[K8-EEE]

31. My Point Is

She said something stupid, I thought the same thing when Ronald Reagan made that joke in the plane....it's like making a gay joke or old folks joke or whatever does not translate to, I will support policies to keep those people down, or even that you don't like them or are prejudiced.

Def she needs to apologize BIG TIME.

Basically I don't like defining people by the dumbest thing they ever did/said. It's more like GWB when you consistently undermine all of us -- that is the enemy.

[_Jumper_]

33. What did Reagan say?

I was either not born then or very young at the time so I don't know about it.

What is her record regarding South Asians? One can make a valid argument that affirmative action hurts South Asians. Hence, it can be argued that she may support it because of an anti-Asian bias.

I don't believe that but that argument can legitimately be made.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

81. Republicans don't just make jokes-they act. Regan at Bitburg

is a good example. Actions are stronger than words.

I think you're getting your panties in a twist over a minor issue, and considering that you use the right-wing term "Islamo-fascist" freely, I find this post ludicrous.

[_Jumper_]

92. Do you use the terms Nazi , Xian fundie, or white supremacist?

How are those terms different than Islamofascist? Thanks in advance...

[IrateCitizen]

35. I guess you didn't mind the Dorismond flap, then

Patrick Dorismond was one of the law-abiding, unarmed black men who was riddled with NYPD bullets during one of Giuliani's "crime sweeps". Almost immediately upon his death, Giuliani produced Dorismond's juvenile record showing that he had been arrested for a petty theft at age 13 as proof that he was a "criminal".

Rudy's beyond shameless. He demonstrated nothing but contempt to the black community of New York during his tenure as Mayor. You're deluded if you think that Hillary Clinton is somehow more of a bigot than he is.

[_Jumper_]

37. I am not from NY

I am from southern NJ.

Was the arrest for theft the incident where he was killed?

[IrateCitizen]

42. No. He was 13 when arrested ONE TIME

and well over 20 at the time of the shooting.

Perhaps you might want to look it up on a search engine. Type in the name "Amadou Diallo" as well for another instance.

You obviously are quite ill-informed on Giuliani, as is the rest of America. I tend to agree with Jack Newfield's take on him as summed up on his book, The Full Rudy: "He was a C+ mayor that became an A+ myth."

His excellent performance in crisis management on 9/11 does not excuse the way in which he repeatedly disparaged NYC's black community during the other years of his tenure as mayor.

You're repeatedly asking others here for "proof" of Hillary's work on behalf of South Asians. Perhaps before you pull Giuliani into the mix, you'd better do a little research of your own on his REAL performance outside of the media hype.

[_Jumper_]

50. What else did he do to disparge black New Yorkers?

Maybe that was a desperate move to defend the NYPD.

I know little about him so I will change my mind if you can show subtantial evidence that he is racist. I was under the impression that he was tolerant because of his views on homosexuals and his response to 9/11.

[IrateCitizen]

59. Here's an article on "the real Rudy" for ya...

Note how he refused to meet with one of the city's most prominent black public officials....

http://www.commondreams.org/views/020800-107.htm

[_Jumper_]

67. Wow

I sure hope that there isn't a race between him and Hillary. :scared:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. No he never made a joke..just let them get beaten within inches of their

life while supporting his PD...I agree..it wasn't a joke.

[IrateCitizen]

45. Not in the case of Amadou Diallo and Patrick Dorismond

In those instances, he let them be gunned down in cold blood by the NYPD. Then, in Dorismond's case, he actually opened up his juvenile record to cite one arrest for petty theft at 13 as proof that Dorismond was a "criminal" and somehow deserved what he got.

Utterly shameless. :puke:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Yes..New York paid a 3 million dollar apology for Diallo this week

I agree Chris..always nice to see you posting.

[IrateCitizen]

32. You certainly can't be serious!!!

I won't switch parties over this but if I had to choose between Giulani and her, I would back the former.

I find Hillary's remark to be reprehensible, and to be quite honest, I've never been much of a fan of her's (and she's my Senator). But if you think that this remark, in an way, approaches some of the things that Giuliani did while mayor, you must be living under a rock.

This is the same Rudy Giuliani who, following the police shooting of an unarmed Patrick Dorismond, went public with records that Dorismond had been arrested for a petty thievery when 13 years old and proceeded to denounce the deceased as a criminal. This is the same Rudy Giuliani who had his campaigns against "offensive" art displays that showed "anti-Catholic bias" but paraded around Gracie Mansion with his mistress in front of his kids while still married. This is the same Rudy Giuliani who displayed a stunning lack of class by informing his then-wife, Donna Hanover, of their separation via a news conference. This is the same Rudy Giuliani who, upon assuming office as Mayor, informed the black community of NYC that he really could care less about them and didn't need their votes to be elected.

Hillary Clinton has her many faults, that much is certain. But to say that you're going to support a person who has proven himself as an obnoxious, loudmouthed bigot in her place is hardly "trading up" in the grand scheme of things. It's a significant step backward.

[IrateCitizen]

43. _Jumper_? Hello? Care to respond?

[_Jumper_]

69. I didn't know much about him

I thought he was tolerant because he had several close friends that are homosexual and because of his reaction to the 9/11. Thanks for enlighting me. I shudder to think of having him and H. Clinton running against each other. :scared:

[MrBenchley]

60. Well that's telling...

Pretending that her audience might not know who Gandhi was is supposed to be racist...but "Giuliani time" isn't.

[Printer70]

282. "Suck it up"

No. Hillary should "suck it up" and publish a formal apology agreeing to refrain from further ethnic stereotypes. And for all of those saying "suck it up" or "deal with it", I don't want to hear you hypocritically bemoaning the problems of race relations or ethnic stereotpying on another thread. Trent Lott paid the price for a moronic, racially insensitive remark. So did Jim Moran. No one is exempt.

[_Jumper_]

332. Amen

I will save this thread. It will be interesting to see how some people will be singing a different tune when a conservative makes a similar comment...

[_Jumper_]

28. Has she apologized to those that she offended?

Even Lott did that...Thus far, I haven't seen it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. Yes, she did so in the link that you provided

[kayell]

38. I thought it was insensitive and stupid (not to mention not funny)

I haven't seen other evidence that Hilary is bigoted though, so will give her the benefit of the doubt for now. Her apology seemed sincere. One of the problems in this country is that we have ALL been raised with numerous racial and other stereotypes. It is very, very difficult to avoid having some of this crap sink in subconciously. I am always a bit suspicious of people who deny that it affects them at all, because it is so pervasive in our society. If people show themselves to be fair and sensative to others in their general behavior, then I am willing to let them have a minor slip or two, IF they realize what they have said and work to correct it.

BTW I am no Hilary fan. Her support for *s warmongering, her total DLCness turns me off completely. So I am not defending her because I like her.

[_Jumper_]

39. has she apologized to those that she offended?

All I have seen thus far is her praising Gandhi.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. She did so in the link that you provided

[_Jumper_]

54. No she didn't

<After being asked to clarify the remarks, Clinton said she never meant to fuel the stereotype that certain ethnic groups run America's petrol stations>

Even Lott issued a generic apology to those that he offended. Hillary, if she is truly sincere in her apology, should specifically apologize to South Asians.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Then why the fuck don't you write her and ask her?

Hell...you can contact an action group and accomplish this. I would BET my hat, my ass and my overcoat you would get more than a propitious sorry from her.

[_Jumper_]

70. If she truly regretted her comment

She wouldn't need to be pressured into apologizing to those that she offended.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. I am not sure that she hasn't..the link you provided gave a ONE SENTENCE

quote in a very short story..perhaps you should investigate further.

[lapislzi]

315. You are so right!

I KNOW I have biases. I HATE that I have them, and I work every day to overcome them. Bias, unfortunately for many of us, is a by-product of our upbringings, our background. It didn't matter what ethnic group you belonged to, the others were always "the others." It is very difficult to renounce. The first step is recognizing that you have bias, and consciously NOT acting on it.

I make missteps. I am occasionally insensitive, no matter how hard I try not to be.

I think that's what's going on here with Sen. Clinton (not that I like her any better than you do, and for the same reasons). Let's watch and wait.

[el_gato]

40. maybe you should qeustion your DLC support as well

these people are phonies and suppor for the clintons has been a tragic mistake for the democratic party

[damnraddem]

62. I have no idea what joke she is supposed to have told, nor when.

All I've seen are some allegations in this thread that she told one.

[Indiana Democrat]

63. I've got to be honest...

I see a lot of south asian and middle eastern looking people owning/running convenience stores and gas stations.

We can't discuss this? Or make light of it via a joke?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

68. I think where generalizations are concerned people see what they want to

see.

I see a lot of Japanese people running sushi bars..if we began to define all Japanese people by sushi bar ownership or used it in a derogatory manner, it would be an issue.

BTW, what is there to discuss about South Asian or Middle Eastrn gas station ownership? Property is as American as apple pie. No?

[_Jumper_]

71. What????

Would you approve of someone making a joke about blacks or Hispanics?

So what if a lot of South Asians own gas stations (few Middle Easterners do, but they get lumped in with South Asians due to skin color)? Should Anglo-Saxons dominant every facet of the American economy? I guess us minorities should stick to sports and music. :eyes:

[Indiana Democrat]

79. Yes...I'm just a rabid racist.

And besides...Go to Onterio, Canada sometime, you'll find a lot of Pakistani's running gas stations.

Don't ask me why...

[_Jumper_]

94. Why didn't you answer NSMA's question?

What is there to "discuss" about South Asian or Middle Eastern gas station ownership?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

111. Why haven't you?

are we "cherry-picking" my inquiries?

[_Jumper_]

118. I'm responding to several people in a long thread

I may miss some things. Re-post your question if you want it answered.

The question you posed to Indiana Democrat is critical. It will expose his or her true colors. What do you think he thinks there is to "dicuss" about non-white dominance of one facet of the economy? I can think of only one thing and it isn't positive...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

122. Oh come on! I agree in essence with your complaint.

Your complaint is that she made a "borderline slur." While I agree it was a borderline slur I completely DISAGREE on the issue of her intent.

Whenever someone addresses that issue you ditch it in favor of repeating yourself elsewhere on the thread.

I've made NUMEROUS thoughtful statements, only to have you alter the subject, answer a question with a question and dismiss your own generalizations as harmless while behaving as though Senator Clinton's mark the end of her career.

I have watched you compare Hillary Clinton, an absolute NON RACIST with Trent Lott..a man whose RACIST actions speak FAR louder than his words when he suggested a segregationist should have been made president.

I am now fatigued...again..please don't "cherry pick" my posts and hold Indiana Dem to a higher debate threshhold than you would hold yourself.

This pattern is becoming ALL TOO FAMILIAR.

[_Jumper_]

139. Response

"Whenever someone addresses that issue you ditch it in favor of repeating yourself elsewhere on the thread."

I have addressed that several times in this thread. Her comment was rooted in the notion of European-American supremacy.


"I have watched you compare Hillary Clinton, an absolute NON RACIST"

Just because she is a Democrat she can't be racist?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

232. Where on earth did you make that up?

Her comment was rooted in the notion of European-American supremacy.

How so. You are really grabbing now.


Just because she is a Democrat she can't be racist?

Again you cherry picked and avoided the rest of the sentence. Hillary made a comment that Ghandi ran a gas station..please explain how that compares with Trent Lott who stated we would "live in a very different world if only Trent Lott had been elected"

You so called response simply proves my point that you cherry pick and don't actually respond on point.

Yes Democrats can be racists. At some point though, they either lose or become Republicans. I do not consider Hillary in the class of Democrats likely to be a racist or do that and you certainly have NOT proven Anglo supremacy with this statement.

[_Jumper_]

237. Response

I believe it is based on white supremacy because it, like stereotypes about Jews in the media and Jewish bankers, implies that there is something wrong with non-WASP's being successful in a certain area.

"Hillary made a comment that Ghandi ran a gas station..please explain how that compares with Trent Lott who stated we would "live in a very different world if only Trent Lott had been elected""

I'll be glad to. Simple, Hillary claimed her comment was a joke; Lott also claimed that his comment was no serious and he said it just to please Strom Thurmond on his birthday. Obviously the substance of what they said is different but their excuses are similar.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

265. I think that's your interpretation

I believe it is based on white supremacy because it, like stereotypes about Jews in the media and Jewish bankers, implies that there is something wrong with non-WASP's being successful in a certain area.

No...those people were JEALOUS of the Jews. In Germany, the WHOLE reason Hitler even could scapegoat the Jews was because the German economy was a WRECK and the Jews held very desirable businesses...and were scapegoated...the racial supremacy was INVENTED in order to STEAL their wealth.

Therefore, those stereotypes DON'T presume SOMETHING is wrong with the OWNER of the gas station, they REVEAL jealousy at the industriousness of some. DO I believe Asians and middle Easterns are unfairly stereotyped for this industriousness? Sure. DO I believe they are institutionally locked OUT of prosperity in America for being an inferior race? Absolutely not. That DISTINGUISHES racism from stereotypes. Are all stereotypes racism? NO...IS racism aided and abetted by stereotypes..YES ABSOLUTELY..which is why I whink it was foolish for Hillary to make that crack although again I DOUBT she MEANT it in the context it is being reported....my EVIDENCE for that is that she followed up by honoring one of the most admirable south Asians EVER to walk the face of the earth, Ghandi.

That SHOULD have been your FIRST CLUE.

Now...do you REALLY want me to go through the fucking hassle of explaining what Trent LOTT meant?

[_Jumper_]

275. Interesting jealousy theory

We can't prove our theories so I respectfully will disagree with you.

Those stereotypes of Jews exist wherever anti-Semitism exists; it was not endemic to Nazi Germany.

I know what Lott meant; I denounced him. I do believe that their apologies are similar but it is clear that Lott's comments were far worse.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

288. It BEGAN in NAZI Germany OUT of jealousy.

Disagree with me all you want. I am Jewish..Hitler CREATED the MYTH of anglo superiority to TAKE from the Jews as I already demonstrated.

Read some of Victor Frankel's works.

[_Jumper_]

338. Your being Jewish

Are you trying to say that your being Jewish means you have more insight into anti-Semitism? If so, try explaining that concept to some people in this thread.

So you are saying they did not also feel that Jewish success was wrong? Do you believe all stereotypes are rooted in jealousy? I think most people would agree that most of them are rooted in feelings of superiority.

[karlschneider]

74. Every convenience store/gas station in this county (Wagoner, OK) is run

and owned by Asians. Two of them are friends of mine, I think they're great folks! I can't find any horror (or humor) in what Hillary said, actually I don't even quite "get" it...it probably was a lame attempt at humor that didn't come out right, but it's hardly a national crisis.
:eyes:

[Indiana Democrat]

82. People freak me out...

...What are we supposed to do? Walk on egg shells and act like we don't notice anything??

[_Jumper_]

97. What else do you "notice"?

Tell us what you "notice" about more popular minorities such as blacks and Hispanics. Let's see how those comments are received by DU'ers.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[_Jumper_]

156. That sounds familar

I recall hearing that from Freepers in response to attacks on Lott.:)

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[_Jumper_]

183. That is a compelling refutation

:eyes:

Nice ethnic slur. It is inaccurate, but now it is clear why you are defending Hillary; it is not just because of partisanship. I'm surprised that no one here denounced your comment. Apparently tolerance here only extends to popular minority groups.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solomon]

322. See. I told you he is jealous.

Just look at that phrase - "more popular minorities such as blacks and Hispanics". Sheeesh. You need to get over it.

[_Jumper_]

96. It is based on white supremacy

This nonsense started when racists got upset because non-whites were successful in a certain sector of the economy. There are also a lot of complaints about South Asian success in the medical field. The implications are clear: only European-Americans should be dominant in the economy and an important field such as the medical field.

[blondeatlast]

217. Bye!

AT LAST!

A-EFFING-MEN!

[CatWoman]

76. I suppose also off limits

are Koreans who own Black hair care product stores...........

[Indiana Democrat]

80. Is that common?

Sorry...I live in the middle of Nowhere, Indina.

[CatWoman]

86. Yes, extremely common

especially here in Georgia.

Also on the west coast.

Have you seen Menace II Society?

[_Jumper_]

100. What about this?

What do you think about Rush's comment about blacks committing a disproportionate share of crimes? Thanks in advance.

[CatWoman]

115. I just think you are going way over the edge here

and are taking this wa-a-a-a-a-a-a-y beyond the pale.

Fuck Rush -- I know who color his sheets are.

But no matter how hard you try, you can't make me believe Hillary is racist.

[_Jumper_]

127. How do you know Rush is racist?

Because he has an "R" next to his name?

[CatWoman]

132. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

the hits just keep coming

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=rush+limbaugh+%2B+racism

[_Jumper_]

140. Specifics

He has made two racist comments and he played the race card regarding McNabb. Some would say that his two racist comments were just "lame attemps at humor". What would you in response to that? Rush is a racist because of his two comments, and Hillary is not because Hillary is a Democrat and Rush is a Republican?

[MrBenchley]

160. Are you really going to try to pretend

Rush isn't racist and Hillary IS?

[_Jumper_]

164. No ; - )

I am trying to show certain people that the logic used here to denounce others as racist applies to Hillary in this case.

[CatWoman]

165. your logic may work in a parallel universe

but not here.

I personally HEARD him tell a black caller to "take that bone out of your nose".

It's not as if Hillary said that Ghandi pumped gas, and cleaned windsheilds with his sari.

[_Jumper_]

179. Why is that racist?

I want you to type why you think it is racist. Read that and then apply it to this situation.

What Hillary said is equivalent to Bill Frist saying "MLK shined shoes" or that "MLK stole hub caps". Would that be a-okay in your mind, or do you have a double standard?

[CatWoman]

181. I'm sorry

If I have to explain it to you, something is really wrong here.

I've been skimming through this thread -- it is much about nothing.

I'm convinced that even YOU don't know what you're upset about.

Know that there are other ways to get attention, and other subjects you can post about to get a large thread going.

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

190. well, i'm tired of this phony shit now. Now I'm gonna be musical.

I get up, and nothing gets me down.
You got it tough. I’ve seen the toughest around.
And I know, baby, just how you feel.
You’ve got to roll with the punches to get to what’s real
Oh can’t you see me standing here,
I’ve got my back against the record machine
I ain’t the worst that you’ve seen.
Oh can’t you see what I mean ?
Might as well jump. jump !
Might as well jump.
Go ahead, jump. jump !
Go ahead, jump.
Aaa-ohh hey you ! how said that ?
Baby how you been ?
You say you don’t know, you won’t know
Until we begin.
Well can’t you see me standing here,
I’ve got my back against the record machine
I ain’t the worst that you’ve seen.
Oh can’t you see what I mean ?
Might as well jump. jump !
Go ahead, jump.
Might as well jump. jump !
Go ahead, jump.
(guitar solo)
(keyboard solo)
Might as well jump. jump !
Go ahead, jump.
Get it and jump. jump !
Go ahead, jump.

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

135. it's her first clue

[blondeatlast]

310. Sheesh, guy--you've lost me there. I have heard him, seen him,

that's all the proof I need. Are you aware of why he was "let go" by ESPN?

[_Jumper_]

339. Yes

But all we have are a few racist statements by him. Rush has "explanations" for them too. How can we accept Hillary's explanation and not Rush's? Partisanship?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

90. Is bodega a racist term?

An awful lot of my corner stores are owned by Latinos. And Koreans. In NYC they say "I'm going down to the Korean to get some vegetables". These are accepted terms with no racist overtones.

[Printer70]

279. You do realize we're talking about Gandhi here?

It's like saying Martin Luther King ran a pawn shop in St. Louis.

[mmm]

65. Mountain out of a molehill

You certainly cannot compare this to what Trent Lott said.

[baldguy]

66. I'm sorry that you're disturbed by it.

But, she HAS apologized. It seems to me that the people that are getting the most mileage out of this are people who would't patronize "Gandhi's Gas Station" in the first place.

They're just looking for something else to "get" Hillary on.

[_Jumper_]

73. Not really

I haven't seen or heard her apologize to those that she offended. She merely apolgized for the remark and praised Gandhi; she did not say she regretted the offense she caused to South Asians, who are a force in NY politics.

[baldguy]

84. What more do you want?

snip

On Tuesday, she told reporters in Albuquerque, N.M.: "It was a lame attempt at humor and I am very sorry that it might have been interpreted in a way that causes stress to anyone. I have the highest regard for Mahatma Gandhi and have been a longtime admirer of his life."

snip

"I don't think she was, in any way, trying to demean Mahatma Gandhi," Naef said. "To be generous to her, I would say it was a poor attempt at humor. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but I find it offensive when people use stereotypes in that way."

Safir Ahmed, a spokesman for Farmer, said no one should be upset about "just a little flip remark."

"As an Indian-American myself, I was not offended by what Senator Clinton said," Ahmed said. "It (the quote) was clearly something Senator Clinton loved, and she referred to Mahatma Gandhi as one of the greatest leaders.

(of course, the GOP Clinton-haters are having a field day!)

snip

Senate Republicans criticized Farmer for not apologizing herself.

"Nancy Farmer should apologize for the remarks that were made at her fund-raiser," said Dan Allen, spokesman for Senate Republicans' campaign arm, the National Republican Senatorial Committee.

more

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040107/ap_on_go_co/hillary_clinton_joke_3

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040107/ts_afp/us_clinton_gandhi_040107200427

[_Jumper_]

107. What do you think?

Maybe, just maybe, she should apologize to those that she offended. EVEN LOTT did that!

[baldguy]

123. "It was a lame attempt at humor . . ."

" . . . and I am very sorry that it might have been interpreted in a way that causes stress to anyone."

Like I said, what more do you want?

[_Jumper_]

144. Her to apologize to those that she demeaned

That "apology" is similar to the Lott "apology".

"A poor choice of words conveyed to some the impression that I embrace the discarded policies of the past. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I apologize to anyone who was offended by my statement."-Lott

I seem to recall that we did not accept that "apology" as legitimate.

Does partisanship trump principle on racial and ethnic issues?

[kayell]

77. Jumper, have you seen other evidence that Hilary is bigoted?

In her votes, speeches, actions etc? If not, why not assume for now that she truly mispoke out of the subconcious stereotypes that we ALL (maybe even you?) carry around in our heads? I don't mean to forget the comment, but merely to see if anything else supports branding Hilary with a bigot label.

[Uzybone]

78. This is nonsense

and how in the hell do you compare saying some runs a gas station to saying someone is a criminal??

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

83. OK Jumper...here's your chance to put your money where your post is

ACT TO RECTIFY THIS INJUSTICE!!!!

http://clinton.senate.gov/

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

85. actions speak louder than words

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. please please rectify what you yourself refer to as a "borderline slur."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

108. Oh JUMPER??? The remedy to your insatiable upset is right here?

Why hast thou forsaken me??

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

116. Wow...guess actions reason and logic are not needed on this thread

Then again..I already knew that.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

119. LOL-Good Assumption

Don't take the bait! There really isn't an argument here anyway and it's spiraling out of control to encompass all groups. I wonder when women and gays will be addressed bu the poster....

[_Jumper_]

148. Well, if you put it like that...

...who can argue with that compelling, rational argument?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

161. Since you began the thread

and haven't made a compelling or rational argument, what is the point of trying to argue? It's just not worth the time or effort.

:eyes:

[_Jumper_]

163. I've essentially made the same argument that was made against O'Reilly...

...Rush, and Barbra Cubin. :) It was successful in those instances.;)

[_Jumper_]

146. Where is the apology?

Dear Friend,

Thank you for visiting my on-line office! I appreciate your interest in the issues before the United States Senate.

Please let me hear from you about your views on the issues that matter to your family and your community.


Sincerely,




Senator Clinton's Thanksgiving Trip to Afghanistan and Iraq





Latest News from Senator Clinton

Senator Clinton Welcomes Delta Airlines' Expanded Service in Albany
Senator Clinton Announces Over $1.3 Million in Federal Firefighter Grants in New York
Senator Clinton Calls on Federal Government to Restore Emergencey Food and Shelter Funds to Suffolk County
Senator Senator Clinton Calls On Bush Administration to Drop Plans For Cuts In Job Training Programs
Senator Clinton Requests Report on Security Steps Taken at Indian Point



Recent Speeches and Remarks by Senator Clinton

Remarks of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton to the Council on Foreign Relations
Floor Statement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on the Final Vote on H.R. 1
Floor Statement of Senator Clinton on Energy Bill
Floor Statement of Senator Clinton on Medicare/Prescription Drug Legislation
“New American Strategies for Security and Peace”

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

269. THere is a link to send her your sentiments..that was the point

YOu want an apology? Request it! What a novel idea? She made an apology....it wasn't good enough for you...have her make it good enough for you...I would venture to guess she will.

[camero]

93. Everyone has told an ethnic joke at one point

It's a joke. It wasn't out of spite from what I heard. Of course in the position that she is in the repigs will jump all over it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

99. The point is she apologized and the apology wasn't good enough for Jumper

That is a PERSONAL problem on which Jumper should act. If South Asian groups were coming forward as being more offended than the apology addressed, the Clinton should act publicly.

If the remedy was only insufficient for Jumper and other south Asians are satisfied, then Jumper needs to seek his remedy from Senator Clinton.

The fact that everybody does it is no excuse for bigotry..intended or unintended.

I personally think Clinton was taking a swipe at those that would MAKE that generalization..not making it herself and that it translated poorly.

[camero]

109. I wasn't defending bigotry.

I agree that Jumper is getting a little jumpy over this. Yes, it translated poorly. Whatever happened to good old fashioned humor?

That's why I like the self-deprecating kind. It also shows humility.
Even though everyone thinks it's "bad self esteem".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

113. I'm with ya

;-)

[CrownPrinceBandar]

120. Some people will always feel disenfranchised

I agree with you nothing..., I believe _jumper_ should demand a personal apology for his/herself, if feelings are running that strong. If Sen. Clinton's remarks were so offensive, why has _jumper_ vented all his frustrations here? I don't believe I have ever seen any evidence of Hillary lurking aound the forums of DU. If he/she feels that south asians have been so stigmatized by this remark, why doesnt _jumper_ contact south asian community leaders and demand they offer a statement of disgust. I have scanned the news and I have not seen any formal complaints from any ethnic communities, but its still early I guess. Whatever happened to think global, act local?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

126. because that clearly wasn't the point of this thread

If one wants to decifer the point of this thread...it is painfully obvious with a complete perusal of the thread starter's responses.

I have MORE than given him the benefit of the doubt.

I will now remove myself and my "benefit of the doubt" as this thing approaches 200 posts with No remedy in sight and LOTS AND LOTS of acute repitition.

[camero]

129. Acute repetition

Oh, no kidding. :)
Though I just don't really feel she even had the need to apologize. But she did and that's to her benefit.

[_Jumper_]

151. The same reason there were a million threads here about Lott

Consistency, consistency, consistency.;)

[_Jumper_]

150. What South Asian groups?

South Asians, and Asians in general are poorly organized. That is why we keep getting steamrolled by people in powerful positions. We need an Asian Jesse Jackson.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

260. How about you? n/t

[Printer70]

360. It's not a personal problem

And it was a pitiful apology. I think that some Indian groups may be torn- they don't want to offend a powerful Senator who is a leader of the Democratic party. Asking for a formal apology from Hillary is a high-risk approach that, for reasons of political pressure, I doubt they will do. It's a shame because Hillary should make an apology that admits the use of an ethnic stereotype and apologizes to the Indian community WITHOUT being pressured to do so by various groups. Conscience, not political calcuation, then would be the driving force behind the apology.

[Cleita]

101. Of course, if it's Hillary saying it we will hear about it forever.

Never mind all the offensive remarks that have come out of Bush's mouth especially about evil Iraqi's and axis's of evil and hitting the trifecta etc..

Every single one of us has been the butt of ethnic jokes as well and they are often told by our own.

[camero]

104. I was defending her

I agree about Bush's remarks. They were obviously out of spite.

The point I was making was that if we take Jumper's argument, then all blond jokes would be sexist. All po-boy jokes would be classist.
And all ethnic jokes would be racist.

Sheesh, we all should lighten up. :eyes:

[Cleita]

133. I thought I was agreeing with you.

I guess I wasn't clear about it.

[camero]

136. I must be a little jumpy myself today.

Sorry (embarrassed).

[creativelcro]

106. whaaaa!

Why are people so offended by jokes ?

[baldguy]

138. Historically, jokes have been used to demean and dehumanize people.

Those with more power in society feel a need to keep them xxxx-ies in their place. These attempts at "humor" most often use hurtful stereotypes, specifically to remove an individuals' ability to participate in any activity which he would normally have every right to - voting, employment, social activities, business activities, etc. etc.

We should never underestimate the power of a joke to remove a person's civil rights.

[creativelcro]

154. let me see if I understand. Hitler used words

to dehumanize people. So, language is bad. That is what you are saying.

[_Jumper_]

159. False analogy

Ethnic and racial slurs are bad because they are used to dehumanize people. Therefore, logically, racist and ethnically bigoted language is also bad. However, that does not mean all language is bad.

[creativelcro]

228. You are using a tautology. It's bad because it's bad...

Sue her, if you think some of your rights were violated. Don't expect sympathy from many people here, though.

[_Jumper_]

235. It is a matter of interpretation

How do you "prove" that racism is bad?

I will not expect much on this front henceforth, but I used to think that we, as progressives, were the most tolerant people in America. Yet, I see more people here defending her use of an ethnic joke than at Freerepublic.

I am not an anomaly. Hillary lost many supporters today and the party as a whole will if the GOP plays its cards right. Don't forget that the main reason why South Asians, who are generally wealthy and socially conservative, vote Democratic is because it is viewed as the party of tolerance. If that is not perceived to be the case, we will see a sea change in South Asian voting. Let's also keep in mind that the GOP is the party that nominated Bobby Jindal for governor. That changed the minds among many South Asians regarding the GOP and race/ethnicity.

[_Jumper_]

158. Excellent post

:toast:

[blondeatlast]

110. What is insulting about running a gas station?

Explain, please?

[Cocoa]

134. it's a stereotype

it's a valid concern, I don't hold it against people who are offended by jokes like this.

But outrage can be phony, too. Expect to hear some outrage that is not completely sincere, but more about scoring points against Hillary, and about calling liberals hypocrites.

[creativelcro]

157. LOL! why cannot minorities come with with their own

jokes about the oppressing "majority" ? Who prevent them from doing that ?...

[baldguy]

173. They do.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/7638729.htm

[_Jumper_]

185. We aren't as smart as blond, blue-eyed Aryans like Hillary

:eyes:

note: this was a sarcastic comment

[Cocoa]

224. it's not equal both ways

it's much more hurtful coming from the majority to the minority.

That said, people sometimes make mistakes and that's what apologies are for, like Hillary's.

[creativelcro]

230. That's one of the problems with people who feel victimized

They are so defensive that it is impossible to interact with them. No matter what, it's always about them, always about putting them down... No wonder things do not improve, it's this attitude that perpetuates their own condition... I'm not saying that there aren't people who are working hard to put down other people; only that people who always complain about being victims will always be victims...

[_Jumper_]

241. Victims? Attitudes that perpetuate THEIR condition?

Go find out which ethnic groups are the wealthiest. That right-wing talking point does not work on Asians. Moreover, did you ever consider that racism is real and that some people do have a disadvantage because of racism?

[_Jumper_]

162. Nothing

There is nothing wrong with being a banker or being a member of the media but most people realize that it is wrong to stereotype Jews as controlling the media or the financial industry. The logic that underpins that thinking applies to stereotypes about South Asian gas station owners and doctors as well.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[camero]

143. No, Bush is.

Look at his policies.

[baldguy]

145. Examples?

[baldguy]

174. Anything?

[Generic Other]

142. You may be overreacting, Jumper.

Every immigrant group that has come to America has gained a foothold in some fashion that the group became associated with. Chinese laundries, Italian delis, Japanese gardeners, Irish cops. A lot of ethnic groups have shared similar patterns of immigration.

In my area, Asian immigrants of all kinds are invested in small businesses.

Of course, every Indian doesn't own a gas station. It's just a striking feature of American life that gas stations are increasingly owned and operated by different ethnic groups than they were in the past. That's true in my small town and may be true in lots of other towns. The fact that this phenomenon is noticed and remarked on isn't totally a bad thing. I think it's more likely meant as a commentary on the American dream and its possiblities, to remind the rest of us that opportunity does exist, and that the immigrant contribution is vital and continually renewed.

If the pattern holds true, the children of the gas station owners will be doctors and lawyers.

I guess if Hillary had actually used an ethnic slur instead of a "borderline" comment, it would be easier to judge her intentions in making the comments.

I am of Japanese American ancestry. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but I think you should relax. Hillary is not the enemy of ethnic people in this country.

[Alex146]

166. I can't believe she said that...

doesn't matter if it was wrong or not. It was just stupid as hell. What was she thinking???

[hlthe2b]

168. Jumper, I've heard or read about Hillary quoting Gandhi

on several occasions. I truly believe her when she professes her deep admiration for him and that she made a stupid, but unintentionally offensive, attempt at humor. Heavens, I've had "foot-in-mouth" syndrome before... Haven't you? She apologized and actions speak louder than words. What has she done (or failed to do) that targeted South Asians? While no politicians is ever going to be perfect, my guess would be that she has served this segment of her constiuency and probably rather well.

[Forkboy]

172. dumb joke...saw her apologize on the news

end of story.

[Piperay]

178. At least Hillary

realized she made a mistake, took responsibility and apologized, that is more than most do anymore.

[_Jumper_]

187. Most don't make that mistake

Aside from Jim Moran, what other national Democratic politician has made a similar statement?

[Piperay]

300. Don't know about national but

the Democratic Lt. Governor Bustemante here in CA used the "N word" and did he ever take heat for it, which he deserved. Bustemante apologized but I think he is pretty much finished as he was one that was beaten in the recall fiasco by Arnold the groper. I don't excuse Hillary cause it is insensitive, stupid and thoughtless, all I am saying is that I don't think some would even own up to it or apologize.

[arewethereyet]

200. she's kind of known for her insensitivity when she thinks noone cares

or is listening.

This is nothing new but it certainly doesn't excuse poor taste.

[baldguy]

205. "Name Removed" made a similar point earlier.

Offered no proof, of course.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

210. No proof will be offered here either

as usual.

[Toot]

202. I agree with your post.

I don't think any political figure should be making racial "jokes," and Hillary should have known better. Yes, I know some have said that she apologized, but to me it just shows some of her true thinking.

[fujiyama]

204. While I'm not...

the biggest Hillary fan (I'm not impressed with her henure in the seante so far...and would vote for someone else in the primaries, were she to run), I seriously doubt she's a racist. For one thing she has visited India (not sure about other countries in the region), and has written quite a bit about how much admiration she had for the women there.

I'm offended because the joke was so bad. There was no punchline.

And she got it wrong. S. Asians own party stores. Arabs own gas stations. :silly:

But we can go on...Koreans own hair care and beauty salons.

Hmmm, I think it's silly to get worked up over making a bad joke over a silly stereotype. Plus, is there something wrong with owning a gas station? Many Asians that own gas stations, hair/beauty salons, party stores, and dunkin donuts franchises, end up sending their children to prestigious colleges, and they in turn end up as doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc.

Yes, I too think that it's not right for democrats to simply brush aside any ethnic slurs/stereotypes made by other democrats (and I've seen a little evidence of that), while castigating those comments made by RWingers. Consistency is very important. At the same time, I'm not really sure where the insult is in claiming that Asians own small businesses. Either way, in a practical way, I view it foolish for her to make such comments, because I think it's important for the democratic party to continue to make inroads with the Asian community (all types).

[MrSlayer]

207. Man, all this whining is pathetic.

It's a friggin joke. Why can't anyone tell or take a damn joke anymore? Why is she now a Klan member for attempting to be humorous? People are way too thin skinned and pussified these days. Comparing her to Trent Lott is absolutely ridiculous. He is a bona fide racist who made racist statements. He absolutely believes America should have been segregated to keep the "inferior, savage blacks" away from "decent white folk". And Hillary tells an Indian gas station joke and all of a sudden she's on the same level? Gimme a break. Telling ethnic jokes does not make you a racist. What the hell's so demeaning about being stereotyped as a gas station owner anyway?

[_Jumper_]

214. Prove it

How can you say Lott has made racist statments? He was saying he was just saying it to make an old man happy. How can you not take his word and take Hillary's word? The only difference I see between the interpretations of their explanations by some DU'ers is partisanship.

What is bad about the stereotype? The same thing that is wrong about comments about "Jewish bankers" and "Jews in the media", or do you feel that those comments are appropriate? It is wrong because it implies that there is something wrong with non-whites or non-WASP's from being successful in a certain field.

Do you approve of racial and ethnic stereotyping?

[creativelcro]

245. It is sad you're so upset about this... There are 100 more effective

ways in which you could spend your energy fighting for the serious instances of your cause. Instead, the result of this thread is that I feel even more that Hillary did nothing wrong and that people who are offended by what she said brought on themselves whatever they keep whining about .

[_Jumper_]

248. Do you or do you not approve of ethnic and racial streotyping?

?

[creativelcro]

263. what is racial stereotyping anyway ?

If there is a strong correlation between certain groups and certain behaviors/features, there is nothing wrong with pointing it out as a fact, whether you like it or not...
You have a stereotype of white people yourself, you just called them WASPS... People tend to get angry for feelings they attribute to others just because those feelings are coming from themselves...

[Printer70]

291. Denial is not just a river in Egypt

And BTW, this would be filed under ethnic stereotyping.

[JasonDeter]

209. We are fast becoming a nation of sissys.

Grow up. All jokes use pain to make it funny. Lets just stop laughing. Then everyone will be happy.

[_Jumper_]

218. Do you approve of racial and ethnic stereotyping by a U.S. Senator?

If John Doe had said this that would be completely different matter. Not only is she a Senator, she may be president someday.

What did you think of O'Reilly's "wetback" "joke"? I saw very few people defend his "joke".

The truly sad part is that there are more people at DU defending her comment than at Freerepublic. Is our racism merely more hidden behind political correctness?

[JasonDeter]

221. Uh, it was a joke. If you don't like it don't laugh.

But to demand an apology? I don't think so.

[_Jumper_]

227. Do you approve of racial and ethnic stereotyping by a U.S. Senator?

????????

[creativelcro]

231. Yup, I agree 100% with you Jason

[JasonDeter]

324. Creativelcro, what a great moniker! And my wife's dream is to go to Mass.

for the antique stores.

[Printer70]

362. "Grow up."

You sound like a very annoying former co-worker who made racist jokes constantly and casually dismissed objections to his worsening conditions at the office with lines like "grow up". On the plus side, he was fired for incompetence so apparently fate catches up with those kinds of people.

[lapauvre]

212. You got only that one sound bite

She was going into a quote from Ghandi, as was suggested at the end of the sound bite. Taken out of context, for exploitation by the media, and the eternal right wing police monitors, it sounded far worse than it probably was.

However, even having heard only the sound bite, I understood she was spoofing those who ARE racists and ethnic sensitives.

For Pete's sake, the woman knows who and what Ghandi was, and if there is anybody, and I do mean ANYBODY, who thinks she would sincerely demean Ghandi, they have to carrying an axe around with them looking for some place to grind it.

Your pious offense and they hay you are making with it, the mountain of implied bigotry you are attempting to lay upon Sen. Clinton is too ludicrous to believe.

Why don't you demand the entire remainder of her comments on Ghandi, and then, you might have understood.

Geez.

[_Jumper_]

220. Gandhi is not the issue

The issue is her use of an ethnic stereotype. This is tantamount to her saying "MLK used to steal purses" or "Cesar Chavez was an illegal immigrant".

[lapauvre]

365. Too bad they don't have brain implants

Pardon me, Jumper, this is not about the people of India, or Ghandi or Hillary Clinton.

And, please, pardon me for being insulting, just in case you happen to be Indian.

I repeat, it was taken out of context. She was getting ready to praise Ghandi. And if your brain limits you to knee jerk responses to three second sound bites, I am sorry.

Ghandi, I do believe, would have understood perfectly. I trust in Ghandi. Ghandi would have viewed America as it is, Hillary as she is, television as it is, and would have laughed, not gotten irate.

[Catherine Vincent]

215. I regret that Senator Hillary said it but I don't think she meant

anything malicious about it. She apologized right away and she also praised Gandhi in that speech. You guys will have to grow thick skin like us AA's.

[_Jumper_]

222. I do have thick skin, believe it or not

I have seen this so many times I am used to it. I care little if Joe Schmoe says it. What makes me angry about this is that this is coming not only from U.S. Senator, but from someone who likely will be president someday.

[creativelcro]

234. What do you care ? People should just do what they are good at and prove

the stereotypes are all wrong... Instead of wasting time here whining about nothing...

[_Jumper_]

238. I'll be glad to answer that

I care because she is a very powerful person. Since I am not white, I stand to lose a lot if a racist holds a powerful position. For some us racial issues are not merely academic, they are very real and we deal with it every second of our lives.

[Catherine Vincent]

244. Jumper, I think you are overreacting.

Let it go.

[sushi]

297. If this has made you that angry

how do you expect to get through life? Don't let this drive you to drink! It happened. Put it behind you. Tomorrow is another day. Don't vote for her when she runs for president.

[RandomKoolzip]

240. Okay, here's my take on the joke.

Okay, Ghandi, right? Everybody knows who Ghandi is. One of the most inspirational figures in history, the most powerful symbol of civil disobedience since the term was coined. A VERY important man, a hero, an archetype.

Hillary was using a little Monty Pyhton-esque absurd humor to get a laugh. It's as if she was introducing a quote by Winston Churchill by introducing him as "this guy who fixed my car once." Or presenting a bit of wisdom from Confucious by calling him "a tropical fish enthusiast." The joke is that everyone realizes that nothing could be further than the truth- it is universally accepted that Ghandi was a saintly man whose achievements were legion and whose gifts to mankind were many. He was definitely NOT a "gas station owner from St. Louis," and to say so is an OBVIOUS laugh-getter. I SERIOUSLY doubt that she was trying to demean Ghandi's importance, or to reinforce stereotypes (honestly, I didn't know that this WAS a stereotype! I guess I'm naive.)...however, I think that she realized that even though she didn't MEAN to hurt anyone's feelings, that she MAY HAVE hurt some people's feelings. And she apologized for doing so.

In a thread I put in the lounge the other day, I introduced my friend, a DU newbie, to the teeming masses here at DU as "a man who has slept with every Chinese human alive...he's close personal friends with Johnny Carson!" Did I expect anyone to believe me? No. Was I trying to demean him? No. Was he insulted? No. Did he get the joke? Yes. Did everyone else? Yes. The same thing Hillary Clinton did, except she did it on a larger scale.

IT IS OBVIOUS HUMOR- the disconnect between reality and levity.

Hillary Clinton has had to endure more irrational hatred than any other woman in American politics. Everyday she is attacked by freepers and conservatives for no good reason other than she is a woman. In reality, she has done much for our country, is a humanitarian, and a strong, inspirational person to many. She has been a champion of charity, of humane causes and an all around good person. If there was a pattern in the past of Hillary Clinton supporting racist causes, making racial remarks, or a questionable sense of ethics (As we had in Lott), then I would definitely think she meant some malice with her joke. As it stands, the way I interpreted her remark was as an absurdist joke in the tradition of Groucho Marx, Monty Python, The Firesign Theatre (remember their "All Hail Marx and Lennon" graphic? Same thing as Ghandi=gas station owner from St. Louis: absurdism), and Mystery Science Theatre 3000.

AND...she apologized for it!

Okay, so, now that we've established that you were offended by this offhand joke that was not meant as an offense, what can she (or we) do to assuage your hurt feelings?

[_Jumper_]

242. It wasn't a regular joke

It was an ethnic joke. Perhaps you have to be from NY or NJ to understand that; it is common around here.

[RandomKoolzip]

249. I'm from New Haven.

I know what it's like in NY, my brother lives in Jersey City and I've visited him often. From what I see there, all sorts of people from all over the world are owners of small businesses, from Mayflower-y white guys to Pakistanis to Indonesians to Puerto Ricans to Koreans to whoever. Ididn't know that being a small business owner was an exclusive stereotype to South Asians. In my experience, South Asians have traditionally been the guys and gals I see walking around universities, pursuing degrees. But I've seen South Asians in all walks of life.

Jumper, calm down for a minute, and ask yourself: why would a woman of Hillary's stature, with so much to lose, with so much media attention, purposefully insult an entire ethnic group? What would she have to gain from it? Do you really believe there is malice in her heart against your ethnicity?

And no, it's not a "regular" joke, it's an ABSURDIST joke, like the "Airplane!" movies or The Marx Brothers. IF you INTERPRETED it as as an ETHNIC joke, then that is your version of it...the same technique is used in Culural Studies classes to "prove" that Shakespeare was sexist, or that Kerouac was gay, or that Emily Dickinson had a sexual thing for her father. Whether or not the subject actually had those intentions is irrelevant for the purposes of postmodernism. It's like a postmodernist deconstruction of her remark to take it as an ethnic slur- you are applying your own personal template upon a simple harmless remark to perform the magic trick of making it come alive and do harm...had you heard the joke in its original context, without the media's spin on it (Headline: "Hillary makes Racist Remark!"), would you have taken offense?

[Beaker]

243. I had the same take on it.

to turn it into an ethnic slur takes some real serious convolutin'

[_Jumper_]

247. If you were from NY and NJ...

...you would understand. It is very common here and apparently not that common outside this area.

[IronLionZion]

246. I'm Indian

and she should not have said it. I'm glad she apologized immediately so I've forgiven her. She should know better. Ethnic jokes among friends and ethnic jokes in a speech by a US senator are radically different situation. Most of the middle and lower income Indians are die-hard Democrats so she won't lose too much support.

[Zomby Woof]

250. Who Needs the Kwik-E-Mart?

Apu: You see, whether igloo, hut, or lean-to, or a geodesic
dome, There's no structure I have been to, which I'd
rather call my home.

When I first arrived, you were all such jerks,
But now I've come to looooooove your quirks.

Maggie with her eyes so bright,
Marge with hair by Frank Lloyd Wright,
Lisa can philosophise, Bart's adept at spinning lies,
Homer's a delightful fella, sorry 'bout the salmonella.
Homer: Heh heh, that's OK.

Apu: Who needs the Kwik-E-Mart?
Now here comes the tricky part.
Oh, won't you rhyme with me?
Who needs the Kwik-E-Mart?
Marge: Their floors are stick-E-Mart,
Lisa: They made Dad sick-E-Mart,
Bart: Let's hurl a brick-E-Mart,
Homer: The Kwik-E-Mart is real... D\'oh!

OFF: Who needs the Kwik-E-Mart?
Apu: Not meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...
OFF: Forget the Kwik-E-Mart,
Goodbye to Kwik-E-Mart,
Who needs the Kwik-E-mart?
Apu: Not me.

[_Jumper_]

252. Thanks

This is the fourth or fifth comment along those lines that I have seen here. Maybe I should take some time off to re-assess whether or not the Democratic Party truly is the less racist party, given the views I have seen expressed here by the most left-wing people in America...

[Zomby Woof]

255. Apu is a positive character

He is depicted as a successful business owner, faithful husband, and devoted father. If that's racist - which denotes inferiority and a host of negative traits ascribed to an ethnic or racial group - then I will eat a Kwik-E-Mart hot dog without the mustard.

No one here is racist. I do have my own parallel fear about the Left - losing their sense of humor, killed off by sanctimoniousness in a sea of PC drivel.

[creativelcro]

258. Yup, I agree... Apu is cool. And he's not defensive...

[Printer70]

302. That's what makes him cool

You can mock him with the worst ethnic stereotypes and he'll just say "Thank you,come again." He's not defensive like people in the real world who take offense to demeaning bigotry.

[creativelcro]

314. LOL: demeaning bigotry...

this is the kind of attitude that is going to destroy what's left of affirmative action and all that because people understand that it's at the point of empty whining instead of susbstantive issues... So, why give them an advantage ?...

[Printer70]

335. Glad you can laugh it...

There's few things more pathetic than watching a partisan offer weak excuses to justify the missteps of their own politicians.

[_Jumper_]

340. Who cares about racism anyway, Printer?

Didn't you get the memo? Partisanship trumps that minor thing called racism. Our goal is to JUST WIN BABY! If that means we have to be racist, so be it. Racism isn't a big deal. Some people are just oversensitive whiners. So what if some people think you are inferior? We should just shut up and know our place. Cheer up! All will be well when we have national health care!

[Printer70]

355. I should know better...

...I was CC'd on that memo. But my conscience keeps acting up. I hope I can learn to be a "good partisan" and one day silence it.

[_Jumper_]

251. Wow. Maybe this was not her first prejudiced comment

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/07/16/hillary.book.response.02/

<In his book, Oppenheimer alleges that Hillary Rodham -- then Bill Clinton's girlfriend -- called adviser Paul Fray a "Jew bastard" to his face on election night. Bill Clinton lost the race for Arkansas' 3rd Congressional District to incumbent Rep. John Paul Hammerschmidt by 6,000 votes out of 190,000 cast.

Oppenheimer stood by his account on Sunday. "Three witnesses have now publicly acknowledged that she said it," Oppenheimer said.

The three people identified by Oppenheimer told CNN that Rodham uttered the slur, but several former campaign aides who were not in the room at the time of the alleged epithet expressed skepticism that the charge is true. >


Of course, this person could have an agenda, but coupled with her Indian comment it is quite possible that she had made that anti-Semitic remark. Perhaps she is a bigot. :scared:

[Catherine Vincent]

256. Old news.

Besides, if she did say it...maybe the guy was a bastard.

[creativelcro]

259. Well said CG25

[Printer70]

277. You can't win

Jumper-

Apparently, loyalty to politicians is a stronger force than common sesnse and decency. You have people who have cast their lot with Hillary and will defend her to their death. Somehow I wish we could be intellectually honest and repudiate this remark, but I don't see that happening.

[_Jumper_]

341. It makes me wonder

If we have so many people here, who are the most liberal people in America, that think her comment was okay, what does that say about our party? Are we truly the less racist party as we believe we are, or is our racism just more hidden?

[Solomon]

373. Nobody is saying her comments were "okay". You're cheating

with this remark. We all agree that it was a stupid stupid thing to say. You seem to be looking for an excuse to go republican. You don't need one. Go ahead. The republicans are much much less racist than democrats.

[alwynsw]

253. I get tired of "All Irish are drunks" I understand.

I'll back you all the way on the joke issue. Let's see, I'm a white anglo male, who also happens to be of 100% Irish desecent. I can empathize with your offense at the joke. I support your position.

[Printer70]

266. Sorry but some of you make me sick

This person who's South Asian has a genuine concern with this statement which ridicules one of the foremost civil rights leaders in history and your response: "Get over it."

Gandhi was NOT just another Indian (as if there is such thing as being "just another Indian"). He was a leader who showed us the power of civil disobedience, freed an entire nation, and taught the powerless everywhere how to respond to injustice. He is a hero to Indians, Indian-Americans, and everyone who understands his example. Using a crude ethnic stereotype on him to gain a cheap laugh is not cool at all. I don't care who says it.

[RandomKoolzip]

270. Read my post above.

Hillary was making an ABSURDIST joke (You know, like it's not supposed to make sense...). She has the utmost respect for Ghandi- why would she be reading a quote from him if she disrespected him?

It wasn't a "crude ethnic stereotype," it was an off the wall, obviously absurd joke, not meant in malice, but in good humor.

Please, you guys... you are misunderstanding the intentions of the joketeller here.

[Printer70]

276. I don't question the intent

I don't think Hillary secretly hates Gandhi. I don't think she's a bigot. But that remark is an ethnic stereotype, it is indecent, it is offensive, and it has the effect of legitimizing a brand of verbal abuse towards Indians. But I'm most disturbed by people whose response is "deal with it". Those people sicken me.

[FDRrocks]

286. Apparently many on DU do not posses the capacity for empathy...

I am saddened by the multiple discussions on this topics.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

289. And even FEWER possess the capacity for CONTEXT

I have all the empathy in the WORLD for the fact that people COMMONLY put Jumper's nationality in this box...if one LOOKS at the context in which she made the wise crack, it is PRETTY clear she was underscoring the irony of the stereotype versus Ghandi.

Remember this is the woman who wrote IT TAKES A VILLAGE.

I seriously doubt she lives her life out of the paradigm where Asians and M/E's are gas station attendants.

I understand you don't like her...I give her a lot of credit for the time during which she was first lady and DID attempt to elevate the status of women.

[Printer70]

292. Even fewer discern how "context" is used as a cop-out

First, drop your strawmen. No one is accusing Hillary of being a closet bigot. Don't read assumptions into people's concerns that they are voicing these concerns because they "don't like her". Hillary made an offensive remark that belittled an important figure in Indian culture and history by using an ethnic stereotype. No one is calling for her head. Just some accountibility. A formal apology will do.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

296. WHAT IS WITH THE FUCKING REPETITION!!!??

Yes he IS calling for her head and she DID apologize. I frankly DON'T think she belittled him. Feel free to make up your OWN interpretation.

[rumguy]

294. I'm not upset..give her a break

[JetJaguar]

298. Gandhi would have laughed.

"A man in love is not complete until he is married. Then he is finished. " -Mahatma Gandhi

"If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide." -Mahatma Gandhi

''My most frequent and natural memory of him is of a laughing, chuckling man,'' -Rajmohan Gandhi (grandson)



"Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err." -Mahatma Gandhi

"He that cannot forgive others, breaks the bridge over which he himself must pass if he would ever reach heaven; for everyone has need to be forgiven." -Mahatma Gandhi

[sushi]

301. I've printed this to keep

"...everyone has need to be forgiven."

Thanks. :-)

[DoNotRefill]

299. Her remarks were insensitive.

I have a simple guideline that I go by. If I'm thinking about saying something that I wouldn't say to that person's face, I don't say it.

I can't see Hillary meeting Ghandi and saying "You work at the convenience store over there, don't you?"

Her comment was insensitive. That doesn't mean she should be tarred and feathered. She made a mistake. She apologized. Get over it.

BTW, I'm not a big Hillary fan, but think this is being blown WAY out of proportion.

[Printer70]

303. "Get over it."

Nice touch. That's not how it works.

[DoNotRefill]

323. Some simple facts:

The Clintons have a pretty admirable record on minority rights.

Hillary said something stupid. She apologized.

Which is better, and who are you going to vote for? Somebody with a good civil rights record, who makes one mistake and promptly apologizes for it, or her opponent, who belongs to the same party as Trent Lott and Strom Thurmond?

You have two options. You can either get over it, or foster a grudge against her about this incident. Which option will better serve your interests?

[Printer70]

330. Vote for Lott? LOL

This isn't about Trent Lott or Strom Thurmond. Excusing yourself based on the bigotry of others is not going to cut it. She said it was a lame attempt at humor. She never apologized to Indians or Indian-Americans. She never admitted she used a demeaning ethnic stereotype. In short, she didn't apologize, which involves admitting the offense and apologizing to the people you've offended.

[_Jumper_]

342. Response

I used to like Hillary. "Minority rights". All minorities are not in the same boat. One could make a credible argument that affirmative action hurts Asians. Maybe she supports it to keep Asians down. Let's not forget a speech Bill Clinton made in California when he was fighting to preserve affirmative action. He played the "yellow peril" card by striking fear among non-Asians by citing how the Asian share of university enrollment would skyrocket if affirmative action ended.

I joined the Democratic Party on the tolerance issue. I will not trust Hillary to not put me in a concentration camp in the event of a terrorist attack. I will remain a Democrat, but I will not vote for her.

[durutti]

304. Yes.

n/t

[cap]

309. jumper you are just causing trouble...

Hillary Clinton has actively courted South Asian professional groups and business groups. Her senate campaign was endorsed by many of these groups. I doubt that she would cut off her funding base. She just said something dumb and she knew it.

Google hillary clinton Indian doctor (professional, business, etc) and you will turn up a lot of articles showing the endorsement of Hillary Clinton by these groups.

Your bringing up the "Jew Bastard" remark is what tipped me off. Hillary was very emotional in her denial of ever saying that remark. Again Google hillary clinton Jewish and you will find many endorsements of Hillary by Jewish groups.

[_Jumper_]

343. Yeah I hate Hillary

That is why I never criticized her once prior to her recent comments. :eyes:

So what if she courted those votes? They all court votes so they can win. Do you honestly think there are no racists in politics?

[Printer70]

356. Yes, these minorities keep stirring up trouble...

...they have nothing better to do than to be concerned about offensive ethnic stereotypes. Seriously, what a bunch of trouble-makers and malcontents. /end of sarcasm

I don't which is more disconerting- Hillary's false "apology" which neither admitted the use of a demeaning stereotype nor apologized to the Indian community or those who are attacking minorities for bringing this up.

[_Jumper_]

367. Plantation

Apparently some people think we shouldn't stray from the plantation and should do whatever our "masters" tell us to do. :eyes:

[NicRic]

312. Lighten Up !

If we cant laugh at ourselves and others, life would be way to boring .I believe Hilarry has been the butt end many many jokes, and I dont hear her crying about it ! IMHO ,another Clark in 2004 supporter !
NicRic

[_Jumper_]

344. So ethnic stereotypes and jokes are okay in your book?

?

[0007]

375. Sir, I believe your on a mission and that mission is quite obvious!

[October]

318. In her book

she speaks eloquently of Gandhi and her memories of her travels to India.

Excerpt:

"The deprivation I had seen and the simplicity of his life reminded me of the excesses of mine. Gandhi's beliefs in non-violent resistance to oppression and the need to organizelarge opposition groups to a government's policies influenced the American civil rights movement and was critical to Martin Luther King's campaign to end racial segregation."

From pg. 268-286, she writes of her travels with Chelsea to South Asia. It's really lovely and most respectful.

[TexasSissy]

320. No. It was a joke having nothing to do with ethnicity.

Ghandi is so obviously famous to everyone in the world that her entry joke about Ghandi being a local gas station owner was a joke on the aspect of it being a different Ghandi than everyone thought she was going to speak about. The name could've been Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Cher, or anyone. The joke is the juxtaposition of the world renowned person with a complete unknown everyday person. That's all.

Why did you perceive it as a discriminatory joke about Indians? Just because Ghandi was from India?

[_Jumper_]

345. Why it was an ethnic joke earlier

Perhaps one has to be from NY or NJ to truly understand it. The gas station/South Asian stereotype is very common here.

[adriennel]

331. stupid, stupid, stupid

it was a stupid joke and I was really surprised to hear it coming from Hillary. just goes to show that no politician is exempt from saying something absolutely assinine.

[ramapo]

337. People have to lighten up

It was a stupid remark and certainly non-PC. It wasn't even funny. But guess what? A lot of gas stations are owned by Asians. So what???

Everybody makes stupid jokes about one ethnic community or another. Often enough there is more than some truth to it.

This wasn't mean spirited.

Much ado about not much of anything.

[_Jumper_]

346. Name one Democrat, besides Moran, who has made a similar comment

If a stereotype has some truth to it is okay?

[DennisReveni]

347. Hillary is a DINO

Why would anyone idolize Hillary?
Can anyone point out what she has done for NY?
She voted for IWR, and the 87.5 billion.
She stands right beside Lieberman in her record of supporting Bush.
http://www.dsausa.org/lowwage/Documents/TANF.html
"Unfortunately, a cadre of "moderate Democrats" affiliated with the Democratic Leadership Council, including Senators Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman, has joined the President. They have embraced the higher work requirements and seem unwilling to seriously address the problem of poverty. Some of these Democrats have gone so far right on welfare that a number of Republican Senators, including Olympia Snowe and Orrin Hatch, have actually found themselves significantly to the left of the DLC Democrats."
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0605-07.htm
"She defended the Clinton administration's draconian welfare reform schemes, which her old allies at the Children's Defense Fund correctly identified as the shredding of the social safety net for America's poorest children.

And she took the lead in drafting a bureaucratic health care reform plan that rejected the sensible single-payer model in favor of a scheme to funnel federal money into the pockets of some of the worst players in the for-profit health care industry.

At a time when Democrats like U.S. Reps. Marcy Kaptur of Ohio and Maxine Waters of California were battling the corporate-sponsored free trade agenda; when Nydia M. Velzquez, D-N.Y., and Lynn Woolsey, D-Calif., were battling to defend the interests of low-income families; and when Tammy Baldwin, D-Madison, and Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill., were championing real health care reform, Hillary Clinton always refused to ask the tough questions, take the tough stands or abandon the risk-averse course set by the Clinton administration. "
....
"But no one is going to confuse Hillary Clinton, who has cozied up to the conservative, corporation-funded Democratic Leadership Council, with a progressive reformer. She remains the conventional inside-the-Beltway pol who angrily shouted, "Russ, live in the real world," after U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., tried to explain why Democrats should embrace campaign finance reforms he had proposed."

Pretend Hillary is a good Dem at your own peril. But the facts prove the truth.

[David Zephyr]

349. Deeply Disappointed in Hillary's Cavalier "Joke"

I have already posted on this subject in another thread, but I salute you for the way you asked this question here.

I have supported Hillary and her efforts for Childrens Defense long before Bill ran for President.

But having watched the video clip over and over, I can only say that the Senator's casual manner and comfort with making her "joke" truly shocked me, disappointed me and has caused me to re-evaluate my opinon of her. I really don't care who that upsets.

Her comment was cruel, hurtful, racist, classist and even made ridicule of Mahatma Gandhi ...all at the same time.

Even her "apology" was self-protective and lousy. She actually used the word "interpreted" regarding her stupid remarks...as if there was another way to have taken her comment. What in the hell was that?

And believe me, she hurt the entire Democratic Party with her joke. And arguing here to support her won't change the hundreds of thousands, if not millions here who were hurt and offended by the "joke" and who will not say a word in protest, but will remember the "joke"...for a very, very long time.

[David Zephyr]

350. Thank You for Your Thread About Hillary.

And Democrats should not be running perfunctorily to defend her on this outrageous "joke".

[_Jumper_]

351. NP

Thank you for your support. I have taken a lot of heat for attacking Hillary.

The link took me to the DU "forum's page". What was the name of that thread?

[retread]

353. It was unacceptable. People I have heard make this gas station/7-11

slur in the past were bigots and proud of it! I am disappointed but somehow not surprised!

[_Jumper_]

358. Thanks for your response!

Some people are unaware that this stereotype exists and what it means.

[absyntheNsugar]

364. Yes...but on top of that

I have to ask "WTF WAS SHE THINKING???????"

Many people hail Hilary as the one to save us all come 2008. I don't and she must not either, if she makes gaffes like this.

This won't just cost her the South Asian community, but pretty much most leftists.

[preciousdove]

372. It was a poke at the rediculousness of sterotypes..

She knew her audience knew that.

I was engaged to a widower born in Gujurat for a year and we are still friends. Our families couldn't deal with the difference in religion although neither of us is particularly religious and we both love our familes to much to cause them that much pain.

He taught and then owned a business school in Uganda until he was expelled by Amin. Educated, hard working, grown kids all professonals. After he came here in 1972 he did own a convenience store for a time near Minnehaha Park. He also was a store clerk, a Catholic high school math teacher, and an insurance salesman. When I met him he was working at McDonalds after retiring. He was recovering from heart surgery and couldn't bear to sit home all day. He is currently working as a math teacher in a Community College. He had no problem with the sterotype. Why are you so defensive?

He also said and I was not sure if he was serious or he was joking that Ghandi's grandson was working at a Burger King in St Paul while attending school. So if you are Asian you are supposed to be independently wealthy and not have to take such jobs in order to meet your goals in life?

Give her a break. The comment was offhand and she appoligized to those who felt the joke was improper. There are much more terrible things to get rally about.

[...Alltogethernow]

377. It was just that, just a joke

sheese, this thread is why I finally registered to participate in the "fun"

[neebob]

378. I thought it was a weird thing to say

and it certainly wasn't funny, but it didn't occur to me it might be an ethnic joke until I saw this thread. All I saw was a clip of her saying, "This guy Ghandi ... used to work at a gas station ... blah blah blah," and I sat there and wondered why she would say something like that. I had no idea why it was on the news.

[TreasonousBastard]

379. I am not incensed, but...

It was a stupid thing for any politician to say. It was a lame attempt at a joke, not an intentional slur, but she should have known better.

Having said that, in my town it's Pakistanis, and a few Sikhs, who own the gas stations. Hindus own the 7-11s and motels. Greeks own the diners, and South Americans usually fix the cars. South Americans also have the best restaurants, except for the Chinese ones. The excellent Indian restaurants are a few towns south. The Carribbean and Soul restaurants are a few towns west.

We do occasionally joke about this as much as we joke about Irish bars and Italian delis. Very rarely is offense meant, and even more rarely is it taken.

(and I have no time to read the other 379 posts on this)

[interceptor]

383. The other thing is...

She apologized. Even a lot of Republicans are saying let it go. I think both sides of the coin are a bit too unforgiving for little slips here and there. I mean, come on, they're all human...

[shepard]

380. Are we now going to start censorship?

It seems that people need to lighten up a bit.There are comedians that make jokes all the time,and we don't get up in arms over it.We are taking sensitivity to a new level.Pretty soon you will have to look over your shoulder before you say anything.Give Hillary a break.She tried to make a joke.Ahe'ee Nehemah

[Marian]

384. I just got here and

admittedly have read mostly the subject lines rather than the 385 full responses, however, I find it most disturbing.

This reminds me of the Clark/Dean wars everywhere.

People are too ready to forgive and forget when something wrong is done by one with whom they generally agree.

All this, 'what's her record?' and 'it's a joke' is very offensive. People are kidding themselves if this would be treated the same way on DU if it had been said by someone who is not generally supported.

I can still appreciate many of Ms. Rodham Clinton's actions while absoluletly deploring racist utterings of which this has not been her first.

This all-or-nothing, minimizing attitude of so many reflects very badly on us. We should feel free to confront anyone who makes offensive remarks no matter who they are.

I would hope someone would understand this; it's quite simple and would give a lot more credibility to everyone involved. Admitting one is wrong is no terrible thing but covering for it, IMHO, is.