Anyone have an abortion... and regret it?

[waylon]

Not sure if this is the right forum


Have you been responsible for making the decision to have an abortion and then regretted it? And, do you have children?

[cosmicdot]

1. I think this is too personal to be asking.

[onecitizen]

7. I could not agree with you more!!!

Sheeesh.

[outinforce]

22. And Yet

Wasn't there an entire thread some time ago which involved people sharing stories about their own personal experiences involving abortion?

As I recall, the focus of the thread was to affirm those who had had abortions.

I don't recall anyone objecting to that thread being posted.

Is there something I am missing here?

Is it that folks think that sharing regrets over having an abortion is just too personal?

[Dhalgren]

68. If I start a post saying that "I have had an abortion

and I have some regrets" and ask for folks to share - that's one thing. But, just coming out cold with questions like this is really unacceptable.

[outinforce]

76. Help Me to Understand

I truly do not understand why you feel that asking the question one way and not another is unacceptable. Is it that you feel that the way the question was posed at the beginning of this thread makes people who might wish to share their own experiences with abortion too vulnerable -- vulnerable to people who might wish to judge -- rather than empathize with -- them?

[Dhalgren]

81. Is this irony, too?

.

[outinforce]

91. Thanks for Asking

No. I am not being ironic or satirical in this request.

I really would like to understand.

[Dhalgren]

122. O.k.

I think that the way this thread's question was asked, leads me to believe it was intended as flame-bait. He asked the question for transparently discernable reasons, with no lead-in an no explanation. And his little fantasy about "Leo" only makes the whole thing, more distastful and this is my cue to drop out of this sick-puppy thread. See ya.

[cosmicdot]

187. sorry, I didn't catch that thread ...

but, likely, would have felt similarly ... speaking as a male here ...

[LeahMira]

59. Still...

I think this is too personal to be asking.

I don't. No one HAS to respond.

[liberalhistorian]

65. That's certainly

true, if it's too personal for someone, they don't have to say anything, and some people don't mind sharing experiences like that.

[David Zephyr]

159. Cosmicdot Has This Right.

What's your motive for asking this question, Waylon?

[maxanne]

2. oh boy

let this sink like a stone, please.

[RandomKoolzip]

3. Man, chicks LOVE gettin' abortions!

It's so much fun to terminate a pregnancy! It's definitely not a tough decision or anything....

[outinforce]

25. You Seem

Excuse me for saying this to you, RandomKoolZip, but it seems to me that you have a pretty low view of women.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

30. I believe my friend Random is being ironic.

[RandomKoolzip]

40. No, man! It's the big trend! People magazine says: "abortions are IN!"

Of course I'm being ironic, you big foofer. Using sarcasm to fight the sexist apparatus of the right....Most problems in this world are directly attributable to an overriding fear of women. (That is NOT irony, BTW.)

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Screaming Lord Byron]

45. Well, duh! I was just riding to your defence, buddy

but I seem to have fallen off my horse.

[RandomKoolzip]

48. Right...I ain't mad atcha, SLB....

I'm just kinda amazed that people can't recognize satire when they see it...sorry if I offended you, man.

[catzies]

49. Yeah. They're "the new black."

I got your sarcasm, and I happen to agree with your point about misogyny.

[diamondsoul]

172. Oh piffle dearie!

Dontcha know we lying abortion-ridden sluts have abortion parties??!! Yeesh where have you been! As penance you're required to book the Chippendale dancers for the next one!:evilgrin:

[outinforce]

50. Here's What I Thought Your Friend Was Doing

What I thought your friend was doing was attempting to suggest that anyone who has a problem with the current laws on abortion is someone who has a very low view of women.

Of course, such a view of pro-life folks is complete and utter nonsense.

And even to suggest it is to avoid a discussion of the real issues surrounding the current laws on abortion.

[liberalhistorian]

57. I simply can't believe you can't

recognize irony and satire when you see it, and actually took that post literally!

[outinforce]

67. What I find Incredible

Is that some here are unable to recognize the satire and irony that I post, and that they would even think that I take some posts literally.

But, hey, if some can post satire and irony, I'll keep posting it right back to them!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

72. Hell, you got me. That's the thing though with message boards

you can never be sure if someone's joking, or just completely lacking a sense of humour. Irony's a tough one when it's just words on a screen.

[Dhalgren]

79. Wow! I thought you were serious, too!

LOL I see now that you were only joking. Man, that deadpan irony kicks!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

235. How high a view can one have of women while limiting their rights?

And yes, this question goes to PRO-LIFE women (as well not just men) who WOULD limit abortion rights. I happen to know a pro-life woman on DU that would not advocate for limiting rights, so I know there are some that realize keeping it legal is better than the alternative even though they personally object.

[blondeatlast]

164. RKZ is more liberated in his thinking than I am sometimes.

I am a woman and a feminist. RKZ has stood up for women many times on the board.

Irony--it's what's for dinner!

[JanMichael]

4. Anyone have one and not regret it?

Doesn't matter either way.

It's legal and should stay that way.

[bicentennial_baby]

42. Me!

[blondeatlast]

165. You said it. If only that would end it, but it won't.

[liberalhistorian]

188. No, it never will end it, not as

long as there are men who feel they have the right to control women and women who let them.

[Maddy McCall]

5. Have you ever caused a pregnancy, asked a woman to have an abortion,

and regretted it? Oh, and do you have children?

What a crock of shit question. :mad:

[LincolnMcGrath]

36. Use your DU star jchild Search and Forget

Many posts seem to hover on the edge of flaimbaiting.

[Maddy McCall]

38. Thanks for the heads up.

[liberalhistorian]

52. Or how about this one:

Have you ever gotten your fiance pregnant, suddenly decided you didn't want to deal with it, realized you didn't have to because you were a man, threw her out of the house knowing she had no money and not caring if she had a place to go or not, called her a tramp and accused her of sleeping around on you, weren't there when she agonized for days over whether or not to have an abortion, considering it the hardest decision she'd ever had to make, weren't there when she made an appointment at an abortion clinic, then walked out halfway through the appointment before the abortion because she couldn't go through with it, weren't there at all during the pregnancy when she had to move back home to her parents and resist constant pressure to have an abortion, weren't there through the 29 hours of labor and the subsequent caesarean section, weren't there on that first night when the baby wouldn't sleep and she was so tired she could hardly keep her eyes open, refused to have anything to do with her until the paternity tests were positive when your son was almost two years old, only saw your son when you felt like it and paid shit for child support because you would only take shit jobs, talked bad about her to your friends, and, oh yes, did you then have another son with someone else whom you treated infinitely better and nicer than your ex-fiance, the mother of your first son?

Jesus H. Christ on a raft, these types of questions piss me off to no end, especially if they're from men, who don't have to deal with it!

[waylon]

58. why?

first, thank you for characterizing the question in the most "reasonable" way. second, what does it matter if Im a man or not? third, why does it piss you off?


If you are a woman who supports abortion rights, wouldnt you want to hear from women who have gone through it?

If you are a man who has been through an abortion, does your opinion mean any less?

I am really confused.

[liberalhistorian]

63. I was directly describing

my own experience, I would have thought that would have been very obvious.

As to why it matters if you're a man asking the question, let's just say that men don't have to deal with it the way women do and often have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to this kind of situation, and pro-life men tend to really get on my nerves because of that.

As to why it pisses me off, I'd have thought that would have been quite obvious as well.

[NicoleM]

64. "wouldnt you want to hear from women who have gone through it?"

No. Maybe if I were contemplating an abortion I'd want to talk to somebody who has had one, but otherwise it's none of my damn business.

[Jane Roe]

247. It is a man's business to some extent

If the man is legally obligated to provide financial support for the child in a way that depends on abortion. I am not saying that men's rights and interests are co-extensive with those of women. However, child support obligations can add up to substantial money over a long period of time.

Any man who will be legally obligated to provide financial support has a very real interest in whether a given abortion takes place or not.

[diamondsoul]

178. "If you are a man who has been through an abortion,..."

Physically impossible and therefore irrelevant. Next question?

[Karenina]

237. Men don't have abortions.

And opinions are like.... oh never mind.

[waylon]

54. that wasnt the question

Im not sure why this issue is such a crock of * as you put it.

[outinforce]

55. I'd LOVE to Hear the Answer to This Question, jchild

And I'd love to hear about any stories women might want to share about how their boyfriends/parents/priests/ministers/rabbi/teachers pressured them to have abortions.

[liberalhistorian]

60. Obviously, you must have all the time

in the world then, because I could tell you about twenty right off the top of my head, and I'm sure others could do the same.

[Jane Roe]

246. Answers

I have never caused a pregnancy (to the best of my knowledge).

I have never asked a woman to get an abortion.

I have some measure of regret that I have never caused a pregnancy, but this is tempered by the fact that I may have the opportunity to help cause one in the future.

Thanks for asking.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. I've had 50 for birth control purposes and regretted every single one

I just can't seem to help myself. I just love terminating pregnancies. It's a contest now to see how fast I can get pregnant again. I never seem to find the right father to sucker into child support for life. :eyes:

[Maddy McCall]

19. Really? I've only had 29--I went through puberty late...

The bad thing about having them, though, is that they cost so much money. I have to lay off the crack pipe and the party money so that I can afford them.

I would just get on the pill, but I don't want to get fat.

My fourth baby's daddy didn't want me to have an abortion, and I'm glad I didn't now, because where would I get my weekend partying funds. I mean, the welfare check only lasts a day or two!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. I really think we need to be forced to have them

that or legalize clitorectomies to cool our jets.

[RandomKoolzip]

24. What the hell are you doing even using a computer...

Shouldn't you be making us men dinner and picking out swaddling clothes right now?

:eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. It's the only thing that distracts me from procreating and terminating

for birth control purposes..I have to transfer the energy somewhere! :shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

33. Honey, you should just squirt out a few along the way...

You know, us loose women need a steady flow of income. Child support and welfare checks provide a steady cash flow, you know.

[Maddy McCall]

31. With the $1200 I get in food stamps each month...

I can cook you a big fine dinner and still have enough food stamps left over to sell to make the payment on my Lexus!

[Maddy McCall]

26. Well, didn't you know that that is what being a feminist is about??

Forcing women to have abortions! It's a noble aim!

[outinforce]

34. Forced? Really?

You really surprize me, mothingshocksmeanymore.

Here I thought you were pro-choice.....and then I read that you think abortions should be forced upon women.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. ..I thought the sarcasm was fairly evident

[0007]

145. I fell off my chair laughing! Your a real sweetheart young lady.

I also like the one about the crack pipe thingy.

You are funny! :yourock:

[blondeatlast]

175. DU is noncompliant with current ADA regulations. You didn't get the

memo?

We must type sarcastic comments in 24 point, flashing, red type for the humor- and intellectually-challenged.

[liberalhistorian]

70. OMG, can't you

see right off that she is being SARCASTIC in order to make a point, and not LITERAL?

[outinforce]

98. OMG, you mean you were taking me seriously??

And here I thought my sarcasm/irony/satire was completely self-evident.

[outinforce]

32. It seems to me, jchild

It seems to me, from what you have posted here, that you have made some life choices that have caused you to be in a place that is not the best place for someone as bright as you are.

If you are interested, I know of some really good social workers who would be willing to help you climb out of your destructive habits.

[Maddy McCall]

44. By all means, send you social worker's email address...

I need to discuss my rage at people who post such STUPID questions as this thread starter.

[outinforce]

62. Well, That's Another Subject

I didn't realize that the poor life choices you described earlier (drug use, poor judgment in the selection of sex partners, etc.) was the result of rage at people who post what you characterize as stupid questions on websites such as DU.

That will make my job of finding you a suitable social worker a bit more difficult, I'm afraid.

The social worker I had in mind deals with addictions and people caught up in addicative behavior. I'm not sure how much experience she has in helping people deal with rage -- especially the sort of rage you dsecribe here.

But I'll keep looking for you -- It sounds as though you could use some people in your life who really care for you.

[RandomKoolzip]

46. Uhh, you ARE familiar with the concept of "Irony," right?

The people on this thread are employing satire to make a point about sexism and oppresive attitudes.

[outinforce]

71. I understand it Perfectly

And what I am doing is employing satire and irony to make a point about the way some folks try, intead of discussing the issues, to demonize those with whom they disagree -- and how some tend to construct strawpeople -- characters that really don't exist.

Get my irony??

[thebigidea]

75. there's a difference: your satire/irony isn't FUNNY

Now try again, and this time make us laugh too.

[outinforce]

94. You say Tomato

and I say To-mah-to.

You didn't think my satire/irony wasn't funny.

I didn't think the satire/irony that others posted was funny, either.

Do you wish to try to make ME laugh, too?

[blondeatlast]

177. Actually, no. I have to make dinner SOMETIME!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

238. What could be more a straw issue than the pretense that a man's feelings

or some other person's judgements trump an individual's right over their own body?

[liberalhistorian]

73. Again, can't you see that she was

being SARCASTIC and not LITERAL in order to make a point?

[outinforce]

103. Double Again! Can't You See That I was

being sarcastic and not literal in order to make a point?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

111. sarcastic or just condescending?

[outinforce]

119. My own view is that

I was no more and no less condescending that anyone who posted comments which they felt were sarcastic.

[Misinformed01]

47. Good GOD!

I was wondering why you hadn't written or called Michael and me. I am so relieved; I was beginning to think you didn't like us anymore--naturally, I had no idea you were so busy at the abortion clinic!

If you get a spare minute, either driving to or forth, please give us a ring-

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. I will in between unwanted pregnancies and terminations

I have to go back to my lead role in "The Handmaid's Tale" now....C-ya!

[blondeatlast]

171. From Cosmo: Forget a spa day,

have an abortion!

For the humorously and intellectually challenged:

THIS POST IS PURE, UNADULTERATED SARCASM.

:eyes:

[shugah]

252. 51 here - and i'm late!

gotcha beat! i'm not looking for the child support tho! what i really enjoy is fooling a man into thinking he's found true love, and the mother of his children, then as soon as the test comes back positive, i just love the look on his face when i say "just kidding! i'm off to have an abortion!"

they're always crestfallen. "but...but... i have loved and trusted you," they say.

"sucker!" say i, "i just wanted to have another abortion!"

edited to add: i have not regretted a single one! we-ell, maybe the 27th...the guy who joyfully knocked me up that time really was kinda sweet...but, you play you pay, right? :shrug:

[outinforce]

255. Believe this or Not,

But I actually know of some men who just love fooling a woman into thinking that she has found true love, and that he will be the father of her children (you know, support the children after they are born and all that). Then, as soon as the test comes back positive, these guys love the look on the woman's face as he says "Just kidding. I'm off to impregnate some other woman" -- usually a better looking, younger woman.

I'm told the women are usually crest-fallen. "but...But....I loved you and trusted you," they say.

"Sucker", say the guys, "I just wanted to break another woman's heart and leave her fat, dumb, and pregnant.

I'm told most of these gfuys have no regrets about how they treat women -- although sometimes tghey find a woman who is kinda sweet.

[shugah]

256. yeah, i dated him too

;-)

[outinforce]

260. Men are such BEASTS!

Honestly, men are such BEASTS! Insensitive, using-others-to-get-their-rocks-off BEASTS, I tell you! They will say anything to get someone into bed!

It sometimes makes me wish I weren't gay!

Having women for sex partners would be soooo much more wonderful -- I wouldn't have to put up with those testosterone-driven beasts!

Sadly, though, it appears that all the really sensitive women prefer sex with women, too.

What am I to do?!

[waylon]

8. The point was...

Does it change your opinion of abortion. Ugly subject but I thought it was a valid question. (Better than the drool I have been spewing today)

Both of us support abortion rights btw but Leo had personal experience with this.

[RandomKoolzip]

10. Leo, it is a decision only the woman should have to make.

Sincerely.

And yes, I plan on having children, but only after I can find a better job (not likely in Bush's economy....) I don't want a raise a kid in the poverty I live in now.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. My apologies

Perhaps my bullshit-o-meter is mistaken:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=996751

[liberalhistorian]

78. The point should be that each woman's

experience is her own personal experience and feelings, and should not be projected onto ALL women or used as a template for how ALL women should feel. I'm sure there are some women who regret their abortions, (I've known some) and there are also plenty of women who don't regret them at all (I've known those, too). The point is, that it's the WOMAN'S OWN PERSONAL BUSINESS AND CHOICE.

[slappypan]

9. Ever start a thread

and regret it?

[waylon]

13. yep, i guess i have now

[waylon]

12. sorry if ive offended

but i thought this was the right place to talk about it. If not here, where?

And, this is coming from a repub who just happens to support abortion. (Not me, my coworker) He is serious about the question as am I.

I support abortion rights but, I'm a man and Ive never had to go through it. Isnt this a fair question?


Again, sorry if ive offended anyone

[RandomKoolzip]

14. You've got to expect feelings to get hurt with a question like that.

n/t

[NicoleM]

15. I don't know if it's a fair question.

And I've never had an abortion. But I am currently pregnant (on purpose), and it did affect my opinion on abortion. It solidified it. I was pro-choice before, but now I'm really really pro-choice. NOBODY should have to do this if they don't want to. And please, let's not go down the "then keep yer damn legs closed" road.

[diamondsoul]

181. Bravo, Nicole, for not

wanting other women to choose as you do.*smooches* Seriously, I cannot stand this notion of pregnancy as punishment for having sex, the relinquishing of one's body against one's will, and the forced damages that would ensue from abortion being outlawed.

The bottom line for me is abortion is a civil rights issue. I own my body, right? As such I have final say who or what gets to use my needed bodily resources, right? There it is. A zygote/embryo/fetus implants without my consent or desire and poof, abortion city baby! Sue me, I own ME!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. If I may be so blunt as to interrupt this

I really think you doing LEO'S questioning for him in this forum is no different than if LEO were to register as a freeper and come here to debate.

I am not accusing YOU of breaking this rule, but Leo as one who IS a Bush lover is would hardly be welcome here so you posting by proxy for Leo just doesn't sit well for me.

I DO think women have had abortions and regretted them the same as women have had abortions and felt it was the right thing to do.


So what? What does it have to do with anything?

Regrets are NOT a political issue.

[NicoleM]

18. ITA about Leo.

[waylon]

29. I am doing his questioning

I was upfront about that but to be sure, im not in his camp.

You have to appreciate my circumstance. Im in the office 10 hours a day with 9 people, 5 of which are repubs (staunchly conservative for the most part) and when we get bored, we talk. That leads to me being outnumbered which leads us, here!

If I am in jeopardy, Ill stay away from this but I thought it was fun watching the overwhelming and fairly quick response to my questions.

I dont want to get banned but honestly, Leo always asks better questions than I do. And the group tends to give better answers than I do.

[NicoleM]

35. Leo asks

"Republican" questions. If we wanted to debate with Republicans we'd be elsewhere.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

37. I work in an office that is 90% rabid right wing. Just makes me more left

Maybe stick to TV and sports with your co-workers. You don't want that stuff rubbing off on you, do you?

[waylon]

43. Rub off on me? Other way around perhaps

And tv and sports are not our thing. Im 40 something, Leo is (a bit older :) )... the only thing that we ever discuss is kids neighborhoods and politics.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. I just wonder why two men are asking from THIS perspective

rather than asking more useful questions.

Do men ever feel guilty about the women they have impregnated who feel abortion may be the only valid choice at the time?

What can THEY do about this, other than run a guilt trip on women?


Ask Leo if he cares so much about the abortion issue, then why is it Republicans also have a big problem making sure children DON'T suffer in poverty without health insurance once they are here?

Why are Repubs so hell bent on not funding HEADSTART and other programs that support BORN children?

Ask LEO if life begins at conception and then ENDS at birth.

[LeahMira]

85. Ah, come on...

Ask Leo if he cares so much about the abortion issue, then why is it Republicans also have a big problem making sure children DON'T suffer in poverty without health insurance once they are here?

Republicans believe that no one should have sex unless they can afford it... which means affording the babies. Don't you know they pay for what they have and expect the rest of us to do the same?

Funny, but I actually imagined that some things in life are free. Who knew?

As to the original question: many women regret having abortions and many have no regrets whatsoever.

I'm sure that at the time most if not all women who have abortions wish that things could have turned out differently. At the same time, they realize that they can't have things both ways and they realize that while they might not be able to have this baby, there will be a baby for them one day. Or not, depending on what the woman herself wants for herself.

The women you hear about who still have psychological and emotional problems years after the fact I would imagine are dealing with problems that don't come from having an abortion but those that come from listening to and accepting guilt trips from a bunch of critics whose business it just is not.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

92. I appreciate this response and agree completely..the issue of regret

is incomplete from being IMPOSED upon them more than some would care to admit.

[blondeatlast]

180. Thank you LeahMira and NSMA--you said it perfectly!

" . . .regret is being imposed . . ."

So damn true. I bought a car I regretted once--does that change my mind about cars?

Sheesh.

[liberalhistorian]

88. Also ask him why

it is that women are still largely held totally responsible for pregnancy when men are equally responsible. Ask him why the focus and burden is all on WOMEN to prevent pregnancy and to deal with the consequences of a pregnancy. Ask him why pro-lifers always seem to focus on getting WOMEN to make better sexual decisions and choices and WOMEN to "stick to their morals", and say NOTHING about men? I could go on and on, but my blood pressure's starting to boil here.

[Rainbowreflect]

20. I can tell you may story.

When I was much, much younger I was pro-life.

When I became pregnant at 16 I did not even consider having an abortion. I had the baby and with much consideration on my part I decided to give my baby up for adoption.

During the time I was pregnant I received a lot of advice on what I should do. Although I have never regretted my decision it did change my beliefs. I am now very pro-choice.

I realized no one has the right to make such a huge decision for anyone else. I did not want to be pushed into having an abortion and no women should ever be forced to have a baby if she is not ready, able, prepared.

[blondeatlast]

182. Well said--no one is "anti-life."

Pro-choice doesn't mean just abortion. It means the freedom and support (emotionally and otherwise) to make the best decision for the woman facing a pregnancy.

I had a VERY high risk pregnancy that I considered terminating, but decided to keep. I was fortunate to have exactly the support I needed--loving husband, my family, exceptional medical care. If any one of those factors was missing, I may have had an abortion.

As it was, I have a healthy, happy boy, but it was an immense struggle. I think the decision to carry on was not unlike the decision not to--agonizing and immensely difficult (my very life was at risk). Pro-lifers have "praised" me for my "strength and courage"--bullshit; I was scared every single day and came close to changing my mind several times.

I don't judge other's decisions when it comes to this . . .there is no black and white in any pregnancy.

[Maddy McCall]

17. THIS IS WHERE YOUR QUESTION WENT WHEN IT WAS ASKED IN OCTOBER

Why not just look at old threads to ascertain the tenor of DU opinion on abortion?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=575521

[Misinformed01]

23. Do you feel like a dope yet

for asking this very personal question on a public forum?

Just curious.

[sendero]

27. Ever...

... known a woman who gave birth only to find that the father was a total loser who would never assist in raising the child?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Yeah ask Leo about this

[Karenina]

234. Who the fark is LEO

and what does HE have to do with anything??? Just asking. :shrug: :eyes:

[liberalhistorian]

118. LOL!

Funny, but also a little too close to home for me.

[YNGW]

51. What's the big deal?

Lots of people apparently don't like the question.

I ask: What the big deal?

There isn't one, that's what. And I won't accept any other answer. Because no other answer is reasonable.

Either you're a woman who has had an abortion, or you aren't. If you are and you want to answer the question, you can. If not, don't. No reason to complicate matters or make an issue where one doesn't really exist.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. I have to ask what's the big deal with men pouring a fucking guilt trip on

women?
Why is it we always focus on the woman's regrets rather than asking if MEN regret the children they sire and take NO RESPONSIBILITY for whether born or UNBORN.

Besides...it is his free speech right to ask and our free speech right to respond.

What's the big deal with allowing that to happen? Eh?

[YNGW]

74. There's nothing to indicate he was "pouring a guilt trip"...

on anyone. If you took it that way, that's your problem. He didn't force anyone to respond. He just asked a question. I don't know why he wants to know. It sounds like he was just interested.

Keep in mind, if someone wanted to respond in a private matter and answer his questions, they could always PM him and avoid discussing it in the open.

Go ahead. Start a thread asking "if MEN regret the children they sire and take NO RESPONSIBILITY for whether born or UNBORN." You won't "pour a guilt trip" on me at all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. Gee the word REGRET wasn't your first fucking clue, huh?

[YNGW]

100. I read that and understood what he meant.

I've had "regrets" about things in my life, but the discussion of it didn't "pour a guilt trip on me". You seemingly read "regret" and immediately attached "guilt trip".

I just showed my wife the thread. She didn't read into it any "guilt trip". Then again, she excells above all women everywhere, of that I am confident. I'm happy that we found each other.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. I'm happy you did too. Has your wife ever terminated a pregnancy and

been asked this question?

I've had regrets in my life too. Should we outlaw all things in life that might cause regrets...BTW for the REAL intent of the thread read Waylon's other posts.

This has NOTHING to do with the WOMAN's thoughts, experiences and feelings and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that Waylon and his alter EGO LEO feel that men should be able to have control over a woman's reproductive rights.

[YNGW]

116. I have no evidence it was his REAL intent.

And yes, I read what he wrote.

Other than that, this is still an opinion board, isn't it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

123. Yes with limits one of which is that conservatives are not welcome to

come debate...it is a question that has been answered by admin 100 times. Since Waylon is asking Leo's questions by proxy, I frankly feel that is what has occurred. My evidence that that was his REAL INTENT is his own posts.

[waylon]

125. wrong NSMA

I agree that I might be in jeopardy asking conservative questions, I will ask the admins about that but I am NOT speaking for him. Leo is a very well respected coworker and friend who just happens to be conservative... and we happen to agree mostly on the abortion issue. WE BOTH SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS!

Please dont try to kill the messenger. I thought it was a valid question. If i didnt, i would not have posted it.

I didnt realize that certain subjects were still off limits

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

127. No one is saying a subject is off limits. I said the manner in which you

phrased the question and then CHANGED the debate to MEN HAVING A SAY in a woman's reproductive rights told the WHOLE story.

You have not commented ONE IOTA on what YOUR position on abortion has to do with a WOMAN having regrets.

And I'll believe there is a LEO when I see him.

[waylon]

147. Perhaps I should clarify

I think the question was "have you ever been responsible for making the decision to have an abortion and regretted it." I didnt necessarily exclude men from that.

Our intention was to hear from both men and women who have been through it. Leo, yes he does exist, went through it. He supported, and still does support, abortion rights but his attitudes have changed since the abortion. Nevertheless, he still supports it.

The question was intended to ask whether anyone else had a similar experience and change of attitude.

Nothing sinister, nothing more than that. Yes, it came from a conservative but, isnt this a question we should be asking amongst ourselves anyway?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

166. For what reason? Should one legislate all conditions that may result in

regret?

Again, I think the REGRET button is usually pushed for a reason. Since they had the abortion and didn't carry the issue to conception..what would we be comparing it to? Having a kid that ends up in Iraq? On death row?

again..I still find this whole issue a rhetorical manipulation for the opening it created for you to impose your idea that men should be able to mediate women's decisions over reproductive rights.

I realize you don't think you did that.

That's where we stand.

[diamondsoul]

185. I think the REGRET button is usually pushed for a reason

Since they had the abortion and didn't carry the issue to conception..what would we be comparing it to? Having a kid that ends up in Iraq? On death row?

Funny,I knew a condemned man. He saved me from a lifetime of hatred for my own irresponsible bio-father. He also said if his mother had done "the wise thing and aborted me" his victim wouldn't have been his victim.

Ironic, no? He wished he'd died before he was born so his crime would never have happened. Oddly enough, his mother and I weren't sorry he lived in spite of the horror because we gained as much as was lost. WE LEARNED about love, hate and children thanks to him.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

225. A button is always pushed for a reason and thanks

Just wanted you to know I read this.

[Dhalgren]

129. I know that you won't mind this at all,

but I am putting you and "Leo" on ignore. I'm sorry, but I don't have time to argue with you or to educate you. Go have a good life with "Leo" - hopefully you two won't ever have to get an abortion, but, fellas, practice safe sex anyway..

[Screaming Lord Byron]

134. Nothing is off limits, but we've had several agent provocateurs of late.

[YNGW]

132. Just keep in mind...

... there are Democrats who are not in favor of abortion. I know that may be hard to fathom for some, but it's true. And yes, they are Democrats. They (both men and women), too, ask women who have had abortions if they regreted their decision, a perfectly legitimate question. Good chance they would also ask questions of the man about how he felt about her having an abortion. Another perfectly legitimate question. One way we as humans determine what is and what is not best for us is to ask people who have been through it what happened and how they feel about it. But, you already know that.

And, asking questions by proxy wouldn't be my choice, but it nevertheless doesn't necessarily diminish the interest of the one posing the question.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

137. I realize there are pro-life Dems much the same way there are

pro-union republicans. IT doesn't alter the ultimate party platform.

Fine on your other statement but asking questions by proxy IS an end run around the rules much the same way as if I said my friend Leo thinks you are a (fill in the insult) that too would be an end run around the rules.

And thanks...I'm not afraid of backing up my point nor hearing yours.

But I didn't come to DU and pay to support them monthly to purchase a soapbox for Leo, the Republican. He has a zillion sites on the web where he can go do this for himself.

[liberalhistorian]

142. Ya know what?

I've posted on this before, but I'm gonna say it again: I don't give a fat flying fuck WHATEVER men think about abortion, and I am ABSOLUTELY NOT interested in hearing from "pro-life" men, they've done enough damage and I had to deal with enough of them when I was pregnant, the fuckwit who threw me out of the house when I was pregnant with his child because he "didn't want to deal with it" included. And see post no. 52 for a clue as to why I feel that way.

[waylon]

148. Thank you!!!

I thought I was all alone in this.

[thebigidea]

150. what do you mean alone? You have dear, dear Leo

[blondeatlast]

190. Opinion board, yes. That is why we are giving our, what's the word?

Oh, yeah. OPINIONS.

[waylon]

77. I think i better stick with favorite colors or some other subject!

This one got waaaay out of control. :(

Here is what Leo has to say....

The question wasnt intended to offend, just inform

Yes, Leo has been through it and did regret it

Yes, he still supports abortion rights but thinks people should be aware of the emotional consequences.

It isnt completely a financial decision as alot of posts suggest

You made a mockery of the discussion because of some presumption on your part

Like it or not, men do belong in the decision making process about abortion

Until you go through it, man or woman, you dont have a "full" perspective on the issue

He contends that he has more experience in going through an abortion than most people here (he says its obvious?)

[thebigidea]

82. well, thank him for informing me to such an informative degree

man, I feel so fucking informed, so full of useful information. Boy, thanks so very much for making me think!

And ask him if he puts his extensive abortion experience on his resume - does he have any tips for impregnating women and convincing them not to have an abortion? Does he start with something snappy like, "Baby, baby - I thought we decided... whatever I say, GOES!"

[NicoleM]

83. Leo probably should have explained his

intentions in asking the question up front. If Leo cares so much what we think, perhaps Leo should register and ask us himself. I also wonder why Leo thinks we need to be more aware of the emotional consequences of choosing abortion. I haven't seen a lot of "I'm having an abortion tomorrow and I'M SO EXCITED!" posts around here lately.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. TO what degree"

"Like it or not, men do belong in the decision making process about abortion"

To what degree do MEN belong in this conversation? Should they be able to force a woman to go through 9 months of labor several months of morning sickness, 18 years of child rearing whether THEY stick around or not, FORCING a WATERMELON out an opening the size of a lemon, gestational diabetes, hypertension?

Should women be able to FORCE men to be castrated if they don't rear their children? If not, why is that different than a man being able to force the issue with a woman?

I await Leo's well thought out response.

[waylon]

90. My words, not Leos... we happen to agree

Im not going to do that anymore, I dont want to get banned.

Let me turn the question around on you. Should women be allowed to have an abortion if the father doesnt want to?

[thebigidea]

93. what a stupid goddamn question

I regret ever reading this asanine thread. You should be embarassed as hell.

[waylon]

105. I dont see how

Nor am I embarrassed. I think its perfectly valid. Why is it that some questions or topics on abortion cant be discussed, especially by men? You didnt respond, you just killed the messenger.


Seriously, answer the question with reasoned responses. Please

[thebigidea]

108. reasoned responses? I thought you gave up.

"Nor am I embarrassed."

Of course you're not. Therein lies the problem.

"You didnt respond, you just killed the messenger."

The messenger deserved to die. Nothing personal!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

115. Waylon. The final decision must rest with the woman.

That's pretty fundamental.

[waylon]

130. OK, maybe that is the way it is or should be but....

I am glad I have a wife that respects my wishes and will consider my feelings.

Maybe that is the real issue. My wife would lay down in traffic for me if I asked, and I would the same for her. Maybe the real issue is if the woman you are with is willing to allow you that type of "control" if you want to call it that. If she got pregnant again, I would have as much say in it as she would.

I know that puts me out on the fringe but it is the way it is. I would never expect her to keep her mouth shut about me selling the house or buying a new car. I would never expect her to keep her mouth shut if I decided to take in a foreign exchange student or adopt a child. Why should I not be included in other decisions that go beyond finances or personal sacrifice>?

[thebigidea]

131. ewww, how completely creepy

because a good relationship is built on a foundation of love, compassion, and CONTROL.

[liberalhistorian]

156. Yeah, but in most of these situations

the couple isn't married. And how nice that you have your household under such firm CONTROL.

[sendero]

146. I already answered that.,...

... in an oblique way. NO A MAN CAN'T FORCE A WOMAN TO GIVE BIRTH ANY MORE THAN A WOMAN CAN REALLY FORCE A MAN TO RAISE AND SUPPORT A CHILD.

Women have learned the hard way that not all sperm donors make decent fathers. While not getting pregnant by a loser would be the best bet, sometimes accidents happen. When they do, some women assess the situation and realize they are not equipped to raise a child to adulthood without a supportive father present. They decide to terminate.

Why should a freaking loser be able to force someone to have his kid? Seems like the social-darwinists of the world would see the folly in that at least.

There are two sides to every story. The simpletons of the world can barely see one of them.

[outinforce]

250. "Freaking Losers" and Social Darwininsts

"Why should a freaking loser be able to force someone to have his kid? Seems like the social-darwinists of the world would see the folly in that at least."

There is, I suppose, no reason that a "freaking loser" (or anyone else) should be able to force someone to have his kid.

What concerns me, though, is the implication that society would be much better off if "freaking losers" did not have kids.

I personally know several fine individuals whos fathers can only be described as "freaking losers". These people enrich my life, and I would aruge that society is a much better place because of these people.

[Misinformed01]

96. I wanted to go shopping at a store up the street

but, honest to God, this question was so fucking stupid...even better than the thread starter...that I almost feel obligated to wait and read the responses.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

97. Yes they should and here is why

It is THEIR BODY and THEY assume that risk. No man can assume the risk of pregnancy of child birth, biologically.

While I admit that may be a PAINFUL reality for men to live with, legally it MUST be that way. To do otherwise is to literally enslave a woman. Women deserve as much of a right over their body as a man has over his. If men could conceive, I seriously doubt this issue would even be a matter for debate.

[NicoleM]

99. Have you ever been pregnant?

Because if you had, you might have half a clue as to level of misery one can experience during pregnancy. Physical agony. Yesterday I was throwing up blood. NOBODY has the right to make me stay sick if I don't want to.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

112. Actually Leo and Waylon think they should be able to make you

Read his other posts and just know that since you have answered in earnest and they were not interested in an earnest answer, you will not receive a response

[waylon]

120. so your level of misery and your discomfort

take precedence over the life of a child?

Nope, never been pregnant but my wife has and she and I discussed abortion and made our decisions together.

Why? Even though she would be in a state of misery for some time, we were able to put the child above our own needs. Yes, that means me too. I worked my ass off for 8 months before he was born (and since then), I quit a very good job to stay home with him after he was born, I put off graduate school so we could have him. Had we decided not to have him, Im quite sure I would have been as affected by it as my wife would have.... even though I wouldnt have to suffer some physical pain (sarcasm)

This is one area where I am in a precarious position. The idea that the father should have NO say in what happens to his child, simply because he is a man and doesnt suffer the discomfort (only argument you made) is crap. That type of bs presumes that the father has no emotion ties to the child and is only a checkbook.


I dont agree

[thebigidea]

124. uh oh... the line between Waylon & Leo seems to be blurring

[RandomKoolzip]

242. "Ladies 'n' Jennle-min....The buckin Bronc Ballroom of Branson, Missouri

is PROUD to present....Country 'n' Western Line Dancin' Sensations: WAYLON AND LEO!...."


(appaluse)


twang twang chicka chicka boom

Oh, I CONTROL my woman
She don't make no decision 'less I say "OKAY"
I have no clue about woman's rights
Don't get me started on gays....TAKE IT LEO!

twang twang chicka chicka boom

Barefoot and preggers
That's the way I keep her
The bible tells me that it's fine
Just don't call me no freeper....Soooo-eeee!

[blondeatlast]

244. Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha! ROFLLLLLLLMLWAO!

[liberalhistorian]

245. ROFLMAO!!!!

And ROFLMAO some more!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

126. No it doesn't preclude his emotions..it only limits his BIOLOGICAL TIES

to the child bearing process which is already limited by nature.

BTW, are all unwanted pregnancies occurring through marriage? What about rape? Should a woman call her rapist if she conceives and ask his permission to terminate? Might he not have even MORE emotional ties to the fruits of his conquest?

What about one night stands or cases where one or more men may have been involved with a woman?

Should she take them both out over coffee and put it to a vote?

What if she has a boyfriend and is raped? Should they go to the local jail and negotiate?

What if the woman doesn't want it and the man does? How should we break the tie?

[waylon]

135. Dont be ridiculous

You know, and I have said, that I support abortion rights. I am talking about whether the father should have ANY say in the decision at all. My question assumes that the father is not a rapist or whatever other ridiculous premise you want to use

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

140. I'm not being ridiculous. The law measures and defines.

How do we legally define this?

[waylon]

152. I wasnt looking for a legal definition

Nor am I trying to take away any abortion rights. As I have said, ad nausium, that I DO support abortion rights. But you have characterized my questions in a manner which degrades my sensibility.


That is unfair and I dont think its productive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

155. Have I degraded your sensibility more than you have degraded a woman's?

Of course it is productive. One gets enough men LOBBYING to have a say and the next thing you know laws are passed and people are oppressed.

My wish would be that mature people conceive and resolve this within the confines of their relationship.

That isn't the reality.

Life can't always turn out like a warm enema. When it doesn't and the rubber meets the road. Who gets the ULTIMATE say? The wman assuming the risks or the other party who is NOT?

[waylon]

167. We finally agree!

Imagine that...

"My wish would be that mature people conceive and resolve this within the confines of their relationship.

That isn't the reality.

Life can't always turn out like a warm enema. When it doesn't and the rubber meets the road. Who gets the ULTIMATE say? The wman assuming the risks or the other party who is NOT?"

Was that so hard?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

173. No but again what does it have to do with your original question and Leo's

Why not frame it from a perspective of WHAT CAN WE ALL DO TO AVOID UNWANTED PREGNANCIES AND FOSTER COMMUNICATION?

Why ask a fucking leading question that has been USED on women since the ADVENT of the pro-life movement to scare them into thinking hell-fire awaits them.

Why not focus towards more viable solutions rather than rehashing political wedge issues?

Again, why not ask what we can to care for the BORN children of the world which would probably make more people see their way through to alternatives to abortion?

This is what Bill Clinton did and it is no accident that poverty went down as did teen pregnanacy AND THE DEMAND FOR ABORTION!

[waylon]

179. It has to do with reducing uwanted pregnancies and making....

the right decision if you do become pregnant.

Why cant we talk about abortion experiences without characterizing the question as a scare tactic or a leading question. Where is the leading question anyway? Why is this a political wedge? Abortion rights are widely supported.

I didnt ask about child care because, that wasnt the question.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

183. What is the RIGHT decision? Is there a one size fits all?

Again..obviously if the woman GOT an abortion, she regretted getting pregnant. Getting an abortion IS a big deal for women. It is SURGEY for which they undergo anesthesia with all the risks of THAT.

Abortion rights are under attack lately in case you haven't noticed.

17 Democratic senators saw fit to limit a woman's right to abortion based on a propaganda term called "partial birth abortion"

There was a picture in the paper where a bunch of WHITE MEN were gathered around the president LIMITING a procedure that makes NO CONCESSION for the health of the MOTHER and all you give a shit about are your emotional ties?

It's very hard to keep responding to your perspective with respect.

[waylon]

186. I feel the same way

You seem to be caught in the trap that men dont have a right to talk about this. And now you are trying to throw out partial birth legislation as some evidence that all I care about is me and my feelings. Well I think its quite the opposite. ME ME ME is all I am hearing from you.



And you know damn well what I meant with "making the right decision"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

194. men have all the right in the world to talk..but that's where it ends

when the rubber meets the road, it is HER BODY. Sorry you are offended by that or too emotionally attached to your sperm to get that it is HER BODY that goes through all the changes. Biology trumps emotionality in my book..even yours...and it ain't about ME..I am a peri-menopausal lesbian with a very low chance of unwanted pregnancy..it is about MY GENDER'S REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS

[waylon]

197. what about my gender's reproductive rights?

Hypothetically speaking, if you were married to a man, you became pregnant, he wanted to keep the baby with all his soul, and you didnt.

Would you even CONSIDER what he had to say or would your rights be more important than your husband?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

203. Your gender's reproductive rights end where your biological capacity

limits them aka your body and its fluids. Sorry.

If I were married and faced that situation, I would like to think I had the good sense to marry a man that would NOT force the issue on me physically or mentally with some guilt trip.

Would I consider his feelings? Yes, depending on the status of our relationship.

Would he be the ULTIMATE arbiter of the decision? Absolutely not...

[liberalhistorian]

205. ONE MORE TIME,

most unplanned pregnancies do NOT occur in marriages, so your constant use of the red herring is not, pardon the pun, productive.

[LeahMira]

212. No...

You seem to be caught in the trap that men dont have a right to talk about this.

Because like it or not, until the Senate,the House, and the Supreme Court have a majority of women (as we are the majority of the population, BTW), we need men to talk about these things.

When women finally got the right to vote, it was because a majority of men decided that was the right thing to do. When our right to make personal decisions for ourselves becomes affirmed by the law of the land, I imagine it will be after men have decided that's right to do also... unless women are really lucky and get those above-mentioned majorities really soon.

I'm glad that some men are asking about these sort of issues, and most of all I respect men who actually ask women about issues with which the men could not possibly have personal experience. We women are here to educate you. Now, please pay attention.

:D

[LeahMira]

213. No...

You seem to be caught in the trap that men dont have a right to talk about this.

Because like it or not, until the Senate,the House, and the Supreme Court have a majority of women (as we are the majority of the population, BTW), we need men to talk about these things.

When women finally got the right to vote, it was because a majority of men decided that was the right thing to do. When our right to make personal decisions for ourselves becomes affirmed by the law of the land, I imagine it will be after men have decided that's right to do also... unless women are really lucky and get those above-mentioned majorities really soon.

I'm glad that some men are asking about these sort of issues, and most of all I respect men who actually ask women about issues with which the men could not possibly have personal experience. We women are here to educate you. Now, please pay attention.

:D

[liberalhistorian]

195. Because when MEN want to talk about

abortion, it's usually because they're against it and think THEY, as MEN, have the right to determine women's lives for them. I've often heard from men things like "how can she do that?", "she should feel blessed to be the bearer of life", and all of that bullshit. NOTHING pisses me off more than pro-life men or men who think they have the right to determine women's lives and decisions, or to "stop" them from having an abortion, etc., etc.

[waylon]

199. do they have ANY say in it

if they are the father or are they relegated to simple sperm donors and check books?

[liberalhistorian]

206. Unfortunately,

a helluva lot of men don't seem to mind just being sperm donors, in fact, that's all they want to be since they often abandon the women they've gotten pregnant, and good luck getting any check books out of many of them. I've hardly gotten any child support in over two years, when I know damn well that he has a job.

[waylon]

214. Imagine my position....

I have a wife and 4 kids, 3 came with the wife, 1 we had a couple years ago. I am now the sole bread winner for all of them. (we do get 112 a month from the father of our oldest so at least he has new socks every month!)

This is why I am utterly inscensed by accusations that men are nothing but sperm donors or check books. I bust my ass to care for 3 children that I didnt even know till 5 years ago, and I do it willingly and lovingly.

Only fathers are MEN and only men are fathers. Any use of the aforementioned terms in any way that disparages either will result in severe ass whoopage courtesy of a good ole boy who happens to be D!

[Jane Roe]

249. Proposed law of the type you requested

In cases of pregnancy, diligent effort shall be made by the biological female parent prior to the point of fetal viability and prior to any abortion to find the male biological parent and inform him of the pregnancy.

Failure to make this diligent effort will mean that the male biological parent will be excused from all legal requirements to make any sort of support payment for for the z/e/f or for any child that may develop out of the pregnancy.

However, this law shall not apply if the biological father has committed any crimes against the female biological parent. Such crimes include, but are not limited to, incest, rape, statutory rape, assualt, battery, failure to pay child support and/or stalking.

Also, this law does not apply in cases of unintended miscarriage and situations where the female biological parent does not reasonably know about the pregnancy prior to the point of viability.

[NicoleM]

128. I've never had a post deleted.

I'm not going to screw up my record over this. You obviously have no idea what it can be like to be pregnant, and you obviously don't care. So, to quote everyone's favorite former First Lady, "I'm through with you."

[Jane Roe]

251. You have no idea what it is like to make court-ordered support payments

More importantly, you have no idea what it feel like to be a late term fetus undergoing a termination procedure.

so I am through with you.

[NicoleM]

257. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.

Am I supposed to feel bad for people who are so irresponsible that they have to be forced by a court to support their children? I am the daughter of a very deadbeat dad, so I do not cry any tears for people like that.

And NOBODY said ANYTHING about late-term fetuses. I am presently hosting a late-term fetus, so I advise you to tread very, very lightly on this topic.

[Jane Roe]

259. Bad feelings

You should feel bad for any person who is forced to work for many hours every month for 18 years to support a child. Those hours at work may very well add up to more than 9 months. It is also worth noting that many jobs and job-related commutes involve risk to life and limb.

I am not saying that court ordered support payments are wrong, but we should have a lot of sympathy and admiration for those who make this sacrifice like they are supposed to, especially if the child supporter never wanted the child in the first place.

btw, it is an unfair over-generalization to characterize all (or even most) people subject to court ordered child support as irresponsible.

[NicoleM]

261. Yeah.

Whatever. I feel bad for parents who have to work two jobs because their kid's other parent can't be bothered to help support the child. I feel bad for kids who go without because one of their parents can't be bothered to support them. I feel bad for kids who don't get to see their custodial parent because s/he is so busy working all the time because the non-custodial parent can't be bothered to help take care of them.

THAT'S who I feel sorry for.

[Jane Roe]

263. yes, it is a good idea for biological parents . . .

to discuss support issues before the pregnancy is carried to term.

Otherwise, giving the child up for adoption (if possible) or to protective services becomes the only alternatives to biological parents working to support the child.

Without timely discussions about abortion held during the pregnancy (preferably early on), the sad situations you describe will tend to occur with much greater frequency and many more lives will be hurt.

[liberalhistorian]

158. Um, excuse me, but just how the hell

would a man force the woman to not have an abortion and to have the child? Tie her down in chains to her bed for nine months away from a phone or computer? And most unplanned pregnancies don't happen in marriages.

[blondeatlast]

222. Wow--you are a TREMENDOUS typist!

Since I know you are just typing what Leo is dictating . . .

:eyes:

[liberalhistorian]

154. YES!!!!!!

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There, I hope that sufficiently answers your question!

[diamondsoul]

189. "Should women be allowed..."

Stop, right there. That word is what destroys your whole argument. NOBODY ALLOWS OR DISALLOWS MY RIGHT TO CONTROL MY OWN BODY. It matters not whether he thinks it's his "unborn child" or anything else, the sole defining factor is that it affects ONLY the body of the woman who carries or opts to abort it.

If he doesn't agree then he should have ensured his partner agreed with his views BEFORE acting in a manner that would affect ONLY HER body if the outcome were less than desirable.

[Alenne]

221. yes nt

[Dhalgren]

109. C'mon, Leo??! Really?

I think Leo may be the little man in you pants, fella. If you were sensitive to women's issues and were truly pro-choice you would never have meekly obey your Dom, Leo, and asked this question in this way. I hope "Leo" is getting a good giggle out of this.

[waylon]

136. Why not, I truly am at a loss here

for the record, I am a moderate, I have supported abortion rights since I was old enough to know what they are, I dont believe half of the crap I hear about prolife propaganda, and I am ON YOUR SIDE


I just asked a question

[liberalhistorian]

151. Oh, really?

Well, as a woman who has "been through" the process of making that decision (just because I decided not to go through with it doesn't mean I haven't dealt with it), I really, really, REALLY doubt that men have ANY fucking clue at all as to what it is really like. They can, after all, walk away from it, women can't, for obvious biological reasons. And no, I'm sorry, but men need to sit back and shut up in these situations. And I've paid my dues, so I have a right to feel that way. And if you want to really enlighten "Leo", if he even exists at all, show him my post, no. 52, and maybe, just MAYBE, the two of you might begin to get a clue as to where I and millions of other women are coming from.

[0007]

170. Man's freedom ends where the women's nose begins.

And why men don't understand this simple truth are control freaks doing the church's bidding.

An abortion is the women's right.

[liberalhistorian]

139. AMEN SISTER!

Let the sisterhood rock on!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

66. HEY how come LEO won't answer our questions?

Can't you channel him in reverse?

[Misinformed01]

80. ummmmmm Probably because you scared the

bejesus out of him.

[waylon]

86. im not going to be the middle man anymore

I dont want to get banned and i think this has gotten out of hand. Ill stick with favorite color subjects from now on.

[thebigidea]

89. Anyone ever start a stupid thread on abortion... and regret it?

[waylon]

95. yep, and im sticking to favorite colors and best movie posts

too much too soon i guess.


We will get there one day though.

[thebigidea]

101. yeah, you can go back to criticizing Al Franken

"too much too soon i guess. We will get there one day though."

sadly, that "one day" was hundreds of years ago. Good luck with the time machine.

[thebigidea]

102. edit - dupe

[thebigidea]

104. edit - dupe

triple post! There's a rarity.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

107. Are you actually a middle man or is LEO like HARVEY?

[waylon]

138. harvey?

[thebigidea]

141. a giant talking rabbit/sekrit friend

[thebigidea]

69. plenty of times, I keep forgetting that I'm not a woman...

but I just can't get enough of those abortions!

[West Coast Democrat]

106. Have you ever started a really stupid thread....

then regretted it later?

[West Coast Democrat]

113. One more thing....

Have you ever killed any innocent sperm?

[outinforce]

114. An Observation, If I May

If nothing else, this thread demonstrates just how emotion-laden the subject of abortion is.

And how important it is, if one wishes to have a discussion about abortion, to be sensitive -- really, really sensitive -- to the words that one uses, and to the possible effects those words might have on other people.

I have learned a few things from this thread. I have learned that using the words "abortion" and "regret" can stir up a lot of feelings -- mostly negative, painful, hurtful feelings -- in people who have had abortions.

Thanks to all who posted here.

I do not consider this thread to be stupid, asinine, or a waste of time.

For those who truly want to discuss abortion, there are many many lessons about the use of words and the sensitivities of people to be learned here.

[thebigidea]

117. now THAT's funny.

[West Coast Democrat]

121. Well I think it is a stupid thread

because the original post gave absolutely no context for asking the question. And why would anyone want to share such personal information?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

133. I completely agree.

However..take it one step further and let's look at the issue of MANIPULATION.

I will admit, I DO treat the notion that a man DOES have an emotional attachment better since we have had these threads.

I have empathy for that but still believe the decision rests ultimately with the one assuming the greatest physical risk, the woman.

I, do note, however, that the thread starter ASKED about regret and then slowly moved it into a MAN having a say over whether or not a woman chooses to abort. In my view, even bringing UP the subject of a woman regretting her choice and then using it as a platform for an entirely different debate is in fact a way to MANIPULATE.

[waylon]

143. I dont get how, i really dont

How is it manipulative if you assume that the father does have an emotional attachment and maybe, just maybe should have his voice heard in the abortion discussion, how is that manipulative?

Mind you, I never expected the debate to go this way but I dont apologize for hitting on that issue either. I think its a valid point.

[thebigidea]

144. I notice you decided to ditch the whole "Leo" thing

see, isn't it easier to just present those views as your own?

[waylon]

157. May I clarify

Leo, among other coworkers, has posed several questions which I have posted here. This post is one among many that we happen to agree on, for the most part. I mentioned several posts ago that I dont want to get banned so I am not posting leo's comments anymore. So yes, these are my own ideas but please do not label me conservative, I take particular offense at that.

As I stated in a previous post, Im not going to post any other "controversial" questions from Leo, or others. I dont want to get banned.

I will ask the moderators if doing so is acceptable but from the responses so far, I tend to think it is not and will put my membership in jeopardy.

I work all day long with conservatives and depend on this forum for help. I am sorry to see a backlash because of it.

[0007]

174. Deleted

Deleted message.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

149. You began the thread asking about the woman's perspectives

All of your posts have been about the male perspective.

You asked if they felt regret.

I don't see where you EVER tied the issue of a woman having a regret over abortion to LEO or YOU. I only see where you have used the thread as a platform for LEO and YOU to claim bargaining rights over a woman's body and then totally ditch defining where when and under what circumstances those bargaining rights exist.

Most of your posts indicate marital bargaining rights. What if the pregnant wife happens to be battered by her husband and is in the process of divorcing him.

Should he get to force her to have his child?

It DOES happen ..it isn't ridiculous to ask.

I understand you don't see how.

That doesn't mean you didn't do it.

It MAY mean you did it and don't see it.

What was the original point about asking if women regretted the decision? Why did it interest you, when you haven't posted a thing about it since?

Was it REALLY of interest?

I see no evidence that it was.

[waylon]

161. Because I keep getting repsonses like yours NSMA

I wanted all perspectives. Pardon me for thinking that a man has feelings about a child he helped create!

I tied the issue to Leo because, it was Leo's question. He just happen to have been through this, and yes, he is a man.

Again, please dont bring up obvious conditions that ever rwingers would have trouble arguing. My posts have consistently maintained abortion rights in all cases (late term excluded, i do not believe in that).

I think you want to characterize me as a pro lifer, why? The only contention I made was that the father should have influence on the decision..( I will break out the crayons for you here, rapists, serial killers, the devil, wife beaters, the devil and anyone else who isnt a real FATHER excluded )

The reason I have brought up the original question is because, NO ONE ADDRESSED THE ORIGINAL QUESTION. All posts have been about how I am sexist idiot who wants to keep my woman barefoot and pregnant and Im probably a nazi too!

I would love to discuss the original question, would you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

169. No I wouldn't and if a woman who has had an abortion wants to well

she sure as hell didn't as of yet.

I am NOT making you anything you have NOT made yourself.

I have not seen anyone call you a name. I have seen people respond with SARCASM due to the fact that you used a rhetorical question by a conservative friend as a platform for an ENTIRELY different issue which you keep reverting to and then deny it is your intent.

One of my spiritual advisors once told me that if I wanted to see what I really intended to have happen, I should look and see what I GOT.

Take my spiritual advisors advice..it's free.

[waylon]

184. I wonder if that applies to flat tires

hmmm, maybe I am responsible after all.

What I had intended was honest experiences from people who had abortions and either regretted it, or didnt.

What I hoped to gain from it was convincing people that abortion should be discussed ad infinitum before any decision is made.

What I got was, I shouldnt have asked such a stupid question, who the hell am I (a man) to be asking the question anyway, I should be careful bringing up topics that arent acceptable, Im a man so I have no right to an opinion on this issue, and why would anyone want to share their experiences on abortion, good or bad?


Well this is a progressive board and abortion is a fundamental issue in our philosophy. If we cant discuss this question here, where can we? More to the point, if WE cant discuss this question WHO can?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

191. Yes you should apply the advice to flat tires

Rotate them regularly and check your tread, avoid road hazards and the likelihood diminishes considerably.


What I hoped to gain from it was convincing people that abortion should be discussed ad infinitum before any decision is made.

Therein lies the manipulation. If it is discussed ad infinitum, then the period of time where it is LEAST invasive tends to slip further and further away.

I have NOT indicated anywhere in ANY of my posts that a woman should not carefully consider the choice. The degree to which she includes the male in that is the degree to which communication exists AT ALL in that relationship.

If a woman is EXCLUDING the male from the decision, it can be for a number of reasons too numerous to list..some rooted in self protection, some possibly rooted in selfishness.

Ultimately, you did just admit where you were leading it so you DID admit manipulaitng whether you STILL see it or not.

Next time be a bit more honest.

BTW....I notice LEO disappeared from the equation, so you might also try to keep the story straight.

;-)

(sorry you feel a bit of a victim in all of this but people who manipulate usually do because they can't be responsible for the fruits of their own wares)

[waylon]

204. Thanks for the tire tips

Ill have my wife take care of that :) (sorry, had to do that)


"Therein lies the manipulation. If it is discussed ad infinitum, then the period of time where it is LEAST invasive tends to slip further and further away. "


Not what I meant, I meant discussed in depth, not until its too late.


"Next time be a bit more honest."

Please, you may accuse me of being inconsistent (though i dont see it) but please, dishonesty is not my style and its not productive.


"BTW....I notice LEO disappeared from the equation, so you might also try to keep the story straight."

I mentioned several several severallll posts ago that I would no longer post Leo's thoughts. I dont want to get banned and, on this issue, we tend to agree more than disagree. The only area we disagree is in parental consent.
(side note: I asked the moderators about when to draw the line on posting from R friends, I need to be careful)

I dont feel a victim at all, I feel uninspired. I thought this was the place to discuss these issues. Cant do it in the mall, or with neighbors, or even at work. Last bastion of open dialogue is looking a bit grim but.....I will never feel like a victim of a discussion.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

211. OK then the next time please voice YOUR opinion and be prepared to get

a different response..maybe not in the CONTENT of the issue (meaning people will probably still disagree that a man gets any LEGAL right to limit a woman's right whether she is his wife, victim, one night stand or a prostitute)but in the context of the thoughtfulness of response.

You asked about regrets...you MOVED it to another issue...a very poor debate tactic in the first place and, as I stated, a deliberate rhetorical manipulation to jockey for something entirely different.

I DO feel badly that a man might get a woman pregnant for whom he genuinely cares and that she might shut him out of the decision for one reason or another, but again, those reasons are multi factorial.

I had a friend who was dating a very controlling man. They had dated for about six months when she began to notice a very negative pattern in his possessiveness. She used birth control pills and condoms, but he would deliberately break the condoms often during intercourse.

She ended up pregnant and did not tell him and aborted. I SHUDDER to think what course her life would have taken had she NOT had all rights or consulted with him.

She is now married to a very caring loving man and is ready to conceive. She DOES regret having AN abortion due to her religious upbringing but DOES NOT regret not carrying that man's baby nor having her life permanently attached to a man who was of his nature.

[waylon]

219. I tell you what

You post a topic on this subject and phrase it your way. Caution though, its easy to respond to one question/issue/person but try keeping up on all of them. I had/have many thoughts Id love to debate with you but I cant keep up with everything.

I understand what you are saying but you still are accusing me of poor debate tactics when it has more to do with time than anything. I welcome a debate but I cant refute EVERY accusation... at least not tonight.

I gotta run, feel free to finish the discussion any way you see fit.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

224. OK then my final answer IS

I'm more interested in freedom to choose and keeping it that way than in using REGRET to frame this issue. I'm MORE interested in 5000 things than women terminating unwanted pregnancies, therefore I wouldn't post a thread about this.

You wanted an honest discussion, my answers were FAR more honest than your questions.

It has moved from LEO to this to that with NO concession on your part that the thread has LESS to do with regretting a decision and MORE to do with you REGRETTING your limited rights in the matter.


As far as the issue of manipulation is concerned try this:

My sister needs a favor. Rather than say, "I need help on Saturday, are you available?" She instead says, "What are you doing next Saturday?" Hoping that if I say I don't have plans she then limits my ability to decline to help her since reasonably (to her) if I am doing NOTHING next Saturday, I should be at her beck and call. It's a technique to get what one wants without regard for the other person.

See?

[liberalhistorian]

210. "Convincing people that abortion should be

discussed ad infinitum before any decision is made?"

Jesus H. Christ, man, do you honestly think that women just go tripping merrily to the clinic, hop happily onto the table, then jump down and go skipping merrily off to her job/school/home to make dinner, whatever?

How could you possibly think that a woman would make such a horrendously agonizing and important decision without totally, carefully thinking it through and discussing it ad nauseum? I've been through that decision, and, while I ultimately chose to leave the clinic and not go through with it, it was still the most agonizing decision I've ever had to face in my life, and that was NOT, by ANY MEANS, taken lightly at all. And every single woman I've known who's had an abortion would tell you the same thing.

I think you're being very insulting to women with that remark, and I resent that.

[David Zephyr]

162. That's How I See This Thread As Well, NSMA.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[West Coast Democrat]

153. You can't just switch your profile gender to "undeclared"

We all recall that you are a male.

[liberalhistorian]

160. Um, excuse me, but

I have known women who've had abortions and haven't regretted it for one second. I realize, as a pro-life man, you have an agenda to push, but don't get caught up in the fantasy that just because SOME women regret their abortions doesn't mean that ALL women do or will.

[waylon]

163. nice try but it doesnt fly

read my other posts

[liberalhistorian]

176. I wasn't referring to you,

I was responding to outinforce, who, by his own admission, is a pro-life male.

[blondeatlast]

208. It hurt some who haven't, as well.

I have learned that using the words "abortion" and "regret" can stir up a lot of feelings -- mostly negative, painful, hurtful feelings -- in people who have had abortions.

Several MALES on the board have expressed their concern as well, as well as females who haven't had them either.

Some apology--did you learn from Pete Rose?

[diamondsoul]

168. yes, and yes, why do you ask? n/t

[salin]

192. No offense intended... but questions like these - unless one knows

the person asking - always read like a set-up.

Come people, confess to me that you have had this procedure that people in this country would like to criminalize - tell all... and those who don't believe in the procedure can ... for the good of discussion... ask you all sorts of questions dripping with inferences and judgements... don't worry that within the public their are fanatics who have no problem taking VIOLENCE as a justified response to abortion.

Then to prove the point - that there are tons of assumptions... there is one who takes any objections to mean (again dripping inferences) that those objecting MUST have had an abortion... (excuse me?)

It reminds me of the scene in the movie the Breakfast Club - where Clair is asked if she is a Virgin... she gets beet red and doesn't want to answer as she feels she will be ridiculed (or called a liar) with either response that she makes. It isn't exactly analogous - but there is a parallel in the 'set-up' quality of the question. It may not actually be there (a set up) - and again this is something that would probably be received differently if one were very familiar with the asker and trusted the motives of the ask - but without that familiarity - it just feels like the whole thread is trying to get women to declare something private - in public - for the purpose of... lecture? innuendo questioning?

Do you remember the story of Congressman John Hostettler meeting with constituents who were breast cancer survivors - once a year survivors lobby on the Hill to raise awareness for funding for medical research on womens' health issues including breast cancer. Hostettler meets the women and launches into 'studies' (that are dubious) that link breast cancer to abortions. They try to get the conversation back to breast cancer research - and he keeps going on and on about the links between breast cancer and abortions - at least one of the women was moved to tears - as she felt that his comments and tone were were suggesting that HE was assuming that the women must have had abortions - and thus suffer from breast cancer.

Just putting my two cents in to try to explain the responses received. And point out that to prove the point that folks do tend to make assumptions about people on this topic - is the suggestion that anyone objecting to the tone of the thread must have had an abortion.

[blondeatlast]

193. What's with the third person opinions???

Attention, LEO and YNGW's wife: If you want to share your opinions, then REGISTER. It's really quite easy.

Otherwise,

BUTT THE HELL OUT.

I feel much better now, thanks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

196. LOL! Bob Dole wants to know

[waylon]

207. Leo is a repub

he wouldnt last a day here. I try to post some of his better questions/issues but Im in jeopardy of getting banned myself. Besides, he cant figure out his email hehehee

[blondeatlast]

218. Perhaps that should tell you something.

Skinner made it pretty clear that if your getting a backlash, you better stop posting for Leo.

I'm a HUGE fan of AtA, it's often the most entertaining spot on DU.

[Selwynn]

198. I don't have the energy to do this, so let me just say this:

Nothingshocksmeanymore is freaking 195% DEAD ON, and I just need to toss a big "WHAT SHE SAID!!!" out right now...

Thanks. :)

[Solly Mack]

200. I once pulled a republican's head out of his ass

So yes, I have a child now....so much to learn...so little time

[Zomby Woof]

201. Popcorn Regrets

Popcorn regrets...
I've had a few!
Some didn't rhyme too well
Or were a bit too blue...

But I have this little quirk
To be a ZombyJerk
When I point out
How disingenuous are you??

People are complex
Especially with sex
So take your suspicions
And your freedom inhibitions
With you...

ZW

[Solly Mack]

202. No Bilbo?

Dang...

[Zomby Woof]

209. Bilbo the Embryo!

Bilbo, BILBO
Bilbo the embryo!
He the tiniest little
Embryo to come from a
Hobbit hole!

Bilbo, BILBO!
Freedom of choice for all!
Whether you're an
Elf or a
Dwarf or even a
...Troll
Bilbo's the cutest
Little embryo to come out
Of a hobbit hole!

[Solly Mack]

215. Thank you!!!

Perspective! It's what America craves...

[Zomby Woof]

216. or absurdity

Either/or!

[Q]

217. Whew...another one of those 'I'm shocked that you're offended threads'...

...from conservatives looking for ammunition against 'baby killers'.

- It couldn't be any more transparent.

[flaminbats]

220. I've always had trouble with those abortions...

ohh shit, I meant erections!!! :freak:

[blondeatlast]

223. Waylon: DU typist of the year!!!

Considering LEO is dictating this, waylon gets my vote for typist of the year!

Damn, guy--you are extraordinary with those fingers!

[Solly Mack]

226. oooh...I sense sarcasm...

snicker :hi:

[blondeatlast]

227. Why, whatever do you mean?

I would never be sarcastic . . .

[Solly Mack]

229. True. My apologies

I just got carried away. Do forgive me.

Btw, I'm channeling my friend Martha...she'd join DU but as a spirit, her typing isn't what it could be..

[blondeatlast]

230. HAH! Well, Harvey the 6 foot invisible rabbit has made an appearance . . .

on what may have become the funniest thread of the night!

[Solly Mack]

236. Pooka Alert!

Does the rabbit habit cause Pooka's to question their own mortality?
Or do they just fuck like bunnies for the heck of it?
And if the rabbit habit leads to an excess of little fluffy bunnies they can't feed, does Leo object to the habit of rabbits?

Martha ponders...

[Cheswick2.0]

228. 24 I didn't regret...............

then I got pregnant again and half way through the abortion God spoke to me and I leaped off the table. Too late, I had half an abortion. Months later I delivered a healthy 3 pound half a baby. Since it was the top half he will be a rower rather than a runner. We couldn't be more excited at his upcoming olympic appearance.

[Solly Mack]

231. I love you!

Uh, does your child work parties?

[Cheswick2.0]

233. I love you too!

In fact he is half a single act.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

232. Do you regret that every time

you wack off, millions of little potentials for life are robbed of their chance to become a full-fledged human being? Well, there should be a law against it!

:eyes:

[flaminbats]

239. It should be a Constitutional Amendment..

for the protection of human life, each of those little sperm-like creatures is another potential for a human being, and to deny any one of them a chance to become a person is a crime against GOD!

Likewise periods must now be banned. Women must have as much sex as possible throughout their lifespan to minimize the death of innocent eggs! Sex will be mandatory, masturbation will be a form of murder..thus making the penalty execution. But only after your sperm or eggs are taken from your body and frozen for the cloning process. Let them not be murdered for your bloody crimes!

Yes sex, more sex, and then the state will let us come up with the money..ahhh yes, somehow to raise them. But life...isn't it worth it???

And never mind the suffering billions elsewhere in the world, remember they are all terrorists or potential terrorists must be treated no better than animals..right?

[liberalhistorian]

241. ROFLMAO!

And ROFLMAO again!

[outinforce]

253. What in The World??!!

What in the world does male masturbation have to do with abortion??

[Jane Roe]

254. Oh, I am inclined to go in the other direction

It would be cool if a mother had up to 6 months or a year to terminate a child after it is born. Some people might feel guilty about excercising this option, but I say, "If you don't like post-birth abortions, then just don't have one." Each mother needs to decide on post-birth abortion by her own lights. It's the only fair way.

[Cheswick2.0]

264. Oh hell I have had 7 of those

There's a place in TX...............

[kath]

240. If anyone wants to read personal perspectives on abortion,

from women (and some men) who have dealt with one (back in the days when abortion was illegal), there is an interesting book called "The Choices We Made". It was published in 1990, and when I checked just now to see if it was still in print, it turns out that a new edition came out in 2001. Many of the people interviewed are celebrities.

[REP]

243. Ever Had A Child ... And Regretted It?

Which is worse?

[libview]

248. what ask a question like that?

this post will die any time now!!

[BigDaddyLove]

258. I've been biologically responsible for two.......

abortions, and while I don't 'regret' it, I do sometimes think of what could have been.

And, no I don't have any children.

[outinforce]

262. "Biologicalyy Responsible"??

I'm confused.

I really don't understand what it means to be "biologically responsible" for an abortion.

The only thing I can think of (and I mean no dis-respect here) is that somehow your sperm carried within it some genetic trait that caused a miscarriage or stillbirth.

Is that what you mean?