For anti-immigration folks: when did immigration become evil?

[_Jumper_]

Was it right after your family got off the boat?;)

Please name a specific year or decade.

[doc03]

1. legally

[_Jumper_]

3. Spin--de facto open borders

The USA practically had open borders when most Americans' families arrived here. Even in the Ellis Island days all of those that were healthy were allowed to enter.

[Cleita]

7. Also, back then quotas favored White Europeans.

Very few people of color were allowed in except to do the basest of jobs.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

9. And that was fine then...

But the US was a different country then. It's a lot more crowded now. I don't have any issues for increasing the number of legal immigrants we allow, provided we can accomodate them adequately. I just prefer having an organized system over a free-for-all.

[_Jumper_]

12. Name a year

When exactly did immigration become evil.

What free-for-all? The new system will have caps.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

21. New system??? I don't see any new system mentioned here.

If you have any specific system in mind. I'd be happy to look at it individually.

[_Jumper_]

22. The proposed one

It will have caps on the numbers of immigrants allowed under Shrub's new program. It will not allow anyone who can find a job here to enter.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

33. Oh... Well.. The thread didn't mention his plan specifically...

My initial feeling about it is that shrub doesn't think it will pass, (and he's just doing it to appeal to latin voters).

But assuming it did pass, I don't have an issue with it, as long as there are enough jobs to go around. As long as we strike a balance between work and workers I'm happy.

My only caveat is that we need to have a system in place to make sure that balance exists. I want a system whereby we can adjust the numbers of incoming workers based on our economic (and sometimes, political) needs. As long as that system is functioning (legal immigrants = good, illegal = bad)

But I do believe there is lots of room for argument on the part I have in bold.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

11. Please clarify what you mean by...

"most American families" - you mean white people?

[_Jumper_]

14. Ancestry

Most people in the USA are here as a result of immigration prior to 1924.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

26. I don't think immigration is evil

Using it for your own political ends is. In my opinion, Bush is flying in the face of the immigrants who got here legally.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

2. Legal Immigration is fine...

It's the illegal stuff I have an issue with.

[doc03]

6. C-SPAN this morning

Dan Stein from the Federation for American Immigration Reform was on.
They were flooded with calls from people that came here legally from
Africa, Europe and Asia. They followed the rules learned our language
and studied to get their citizenship, they certainly don't think this is fair.

[redqueen]

13. That was interesting, wasn't it?

Hearing people who are getting shafted are upset.

Gee, now why does anyone have a problem with treating one group of people entirely differently than every other group?

Tough question, not.

[_Jumper_]

15. Buchanan, Savage, Hannity and co. don't care about legal immigrants

That is just a talking point they use. Most anti-immigrant people favor a drastic reduction in legal immigration.

[redqueen]

18. Did you intend to avoid the substance of the post you responded to?

That's what it seemed like to me... just wondering.

[_Jumper_]

20. I agree with the substance of that point

However, that point is raised by anti-immigration groups to increase opposition to illegals, not because of a genuine empathy for legal immigrants.

Note: I am not talking about the DU'er who mentioned that, but of anti-immigrant groups such as the one Stein represents and people like Savage and Hannity.

[redqueen]

25. Aha... I didn't know they were anti-immigration

Thanks for that bit of info.

And yes, I see where your first point is spot-on if the organizatoin is as you say, a mouthpiece for the kleptocrats.

[_Jumper_]

27. I know little about that group

Apparently it is a left-wing group that is different than most anti-immigrant groups, which are right-wing and who oppose it based on "cultural"(race, xenophobia) grounds.

[lcordero]

4. when did making a class system into a caste system

become justifiable?
When did driving 99% of the US population further into the lowest parts of the caste become justifiable?
When did it become justifiable to work 16-20 hours a day in order to put food on table, pay the bills and keep a roof over the head in the rundown part of town?

[Cleita]

5. Gee, now I find your post offensive.

It's far worse than what Hillary Clinton said about Ghandi.

[_Jumper_]

8. ?

Check your inbox. I explained my post in a PM.

[Cleita]

10. Why don't you just eliminate the boat and

ask when our family swam across the river to get here?

[_Jumper_]

16. Check your inbox

I think you are missing my point.

[Gin]

31. Immigration isn't the issue and you know it....it's the "Illegal aliens"

I am opposed to. The play on words is a cheap shot!
Why have laws if we won't observe them? Why have policy if you can jump to the head of the line? This line of your family came over that way is bull. They went through a process...had sponsors..played by the rules.

Welcome to the Illegal States of America Inc. Steal an election- no problem. Steal billions from shareholders-no problem. Wage illegal war-no problem. Hire illegal aliens- no problem. Sneak across the border- no problem. We can all pay for the social services for everybody while we humbly service the upper 1% who have all the money.

American citizenship is being devalued so employers and corporate honchos can make more money. Employers who hire illegals at low slave wage pay, need to be jailed or fined or both. Fox, is slick as a fox. He encourages his population to come here illegally and transfers the burden to the middle class taxpayer. He must have learned that from shrub.

The sucking sound of jobs going south is happening. The next sucking sound will be the lowering of wages for all and the standard of living in this country. Global trade does work. We will be a third world country and have lots of company in that status.

[_Jumper_]

48. "Illegals"

I think we need to ask a Native American DU'er what he or she thinks about the so-called legal immigration that resulted in most of us being here...

[Hamlette]

17. I got interested in the immigration issue

during the Elian mess in Florida. I was horrified over what happened in that case (keeping the boy from his father!) So I guess I'm a tad prejudiced over the way we treat immigrants from Cuba (they are the only group that gets welfare for instance.) I found a web site that caused me concern. For me it is a population issue and a wage issue, not a race issue. If this was for European immigrants I would feel the same way.
http://www.fairus.org/

[redqueen]

That's the organization that the guy from C-Span this morning is from.

But based on another post, it would seem they're just right wing blowhards so they should be ignored. (?)

[_Jumper_]

23. I wasn't aware of that

My point stands, though, for conservative anti-immigrant groups.

[DuctapeFatwa]

19. A little something for all the folks who have had trouble with immigrants

ever since they got to this country.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=972144

[_Jumper_]

24. What is your take on all this?

You tend to have interesting and insightful views, even though we disagree on some things.

[DuctapeFatwa]

30. I just posted a link to it

a rollicking, mischievous blatant link to my take on it :D

[DuctapeFatwa]

35. or if you're looking for the one about bush's "plan" here it is

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=992994

[blondeatlast]

28. When the damn Canucks start crossing; taking our jobs and women.

Why don't we close that northern border now?

Warning: this post is pure, unadulterated sarcasm.

[Cleita]

29. But honey, they do, not the canucks specifically but

illegals who are ethnically European, like Brits, Irish, Australians, Scandanavians, Russians and others cross the OTHER border. Since they blend in better, no one really questions their legality.

[TheMiddleRoad]

57. Blame Canada

We probably loose more Americans to Canada then the other way around.

No other country in the world has such liberal immigration policies as the US. And yet, we are still taken advantage of.

There are no more new frontiers in the US. We can no longer be the poverty deportation program for the rest of the world.

[doc03]

32. Slavery

The reasons they are using in support of illegal works today are the same ones used to support slavery in the 1800's.

[preciousdove]

34. In 1619 the Jamestown colony made the Irish live outside the Fort..

..I believe the Native Americans generally were against immigration. Right now I wish all the Republicans would move somewhere else..

[doc03]

36. They did

They live between the east and west coast states.

[hlthe2b]

39. I'm with you... I've got no problem with immigration-- the more diversity

the better IMO. However, I'd like to balance that with some Emigration of some of our nation's "ugliest Americans."


On the other hand, I'd like more equity in the system, so that an Egyptian, or Somali, or Ecuadoran, or whatever the less favored nationality, would not be waiting in vein to legally imigrate, while politicians provide blanket amnesty to those who did so illegally. That does not mean I'm not open to guest worker programs, and I certainly am not backing the likes of Tancredo and others who are thinly veiled racists imo. The issue is complex and ought to warrant thoughtful policy-making and not just election year pandering.

[cade]

37. On October 12, 1492,

sailing aboard the Santa Maria under finance from the Spanish crown, Cristoforo Colombo stumbled upon the island of Guanahani (believed to be San Salvador), in the Caribbean region. Initially charting a new trade route to Asian markets, the outcome of Colombo's voyage would quickly prove far more lucrative than the opening of new trade routes, as far as Europe was concerned.

It was on Guanahani that Colombo first encountered Taino Arawaks, whom he titled `Indians', believing he had in fact reached Asia. For this initial encounter, Colombo's own log stands as testimony to his own greed:

"No sooner had we concluded the formalities of taking possession of the island than people began to come to the beach... They are friendly and well-dispositioned people who bear no arms except for small spears.
"They ought to make good and skilled servants... I think they can easily be made Christians, for they seem to have no religion. If it pleases Our Lord, I will take six of them to Your Highnesses when I depart" (from Colombo's log, October 12, 1492) <1>.

True to his word, if little else, Colombo kidnapped about 9 Taino during his journey through the Bahamas, and anticipated even more kidnappings and enslavement,
"...these people are very unskilled in arms. Your Highnesses will see this for yourselves when I bring you the seven that I have taken. After they learn our languages I shall return them, unless Your Highnesses order that the entire population be taken to Castille, or held captive here. With 50 men you could subject everyone and make them do what you wished" (Colombo's log, October 14, 1492) <2>.

http://www.dickshovel.com/500.html

there is alot more. The whole incident involving Colombus was evil, in a few years the Taino were extinct.

Until recently, commonly accepted population levels of the indigenous peoples on the eve of 1492 were around 10-15 million. This number continues to be accepted by individuals and groups who see 1492 as a "discovery" in which only a few million Indians died -- and then mostly from diseases. More recent demographic studies place the Indigenous population at between 70 to 100 million peoples, with some 10 million in North America, 30 million in Mesoamerica, and around 50 to 70 million in South America.

[doc03]

38. Question

When they make the illegals legal and put them on the rolls to pay taxes etc. Won't the greedy American employers replace them for new
cheaper illegal workers?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. I'm not against immigration

I think that the Somalis, Vietnamese, Latinos, Hmongs, Ethiopians, East Indians, and Russians who have moved to Minneapolis since I last lived here have made it a more interesting and lively place. They are revitalizing formerly dying parts of the city and opening some damned good restaurants.

HOWEVER, GeeDub's bill is not about immigration: it is about allowing his buddies to hire desperate people who will live literally in prefab storage sheds (as some farm workers in Oregon do) and accept minimum wage for backbreaking, unpleasant work because it seems like a fortune back where they come from.

With high unemployment among the people who are already here, it is cynical to claim that employers can't find workers. The truth is, there are millions of people available, but the workers are understandably reluctant to work without a living wage or chances for promotion or safe working conditions.

Hey, if immigrant workers come in on 3-year visas, you never have to promote them, right? And if their visas run out and they still need to send money back home, can't you just see their employer saying, "I'll keep you on behind the scenes if you take a pay cut"?

In the past three years, whenever the Bush admin has proposed something that sounds good, it has invariably proved to have a shit lining. This is no exception.

[_Jumper_]

49. I don't support Shrub's plan, btw

I have seen some people make anti-immigrant comments and I posted this to remind them about something.;)

[mitchum]

41. Well, half of my ancestors didn't use a boat (they presumably...

walked across a then-existent land mass a very long time ago)
I make no apologies for favoring Draconian immigration laws

[_Jumper_]

50. When did it become a bad thing?

1492? 1620? 1800? 1850? 1880? 1924? 1965? 2004?

[Cat Atomic]

42. I'm not against immigration, but Bush's plan sucks because

it isn't accompanied by any steps to protect labor. That's the labor of immigrants and current citizens.

I'm against the creation of a cheap labor class. It has nothing to do with racism or anti-immigration ideas.

[Fred Duke]

55. ...to do the jobs American's just won't do...

This is the big lie. Americans will do any job when the
wage is right. I'll pay more for produce gladly but the
whole story is bigger than that. Cheap labor stifles
innovation. It removes the incentive to mechanize and
improve many industries. Worst, it keeps Americans in
sh*t jobs earning dirt for wages because the must compete
against illegal immigrants working for even less.

[_Jumper_]

56. How many Americans will pick berries in the scorching heat?

?

[Cleita]

59. You are so naive.

Berries have to be picked in the early morning, like five in the morning before the heat sets in or they get mushy. That is usually by ten in the morning in many valleys, then it becomes too hot to pick.

[TheMiddleRoad]

58. Compensation

This is the big lie. Americans will do any job when the
wage is right.

Damn straight. The best example is waste disposal workers. They have a great union and colossal bargaining power. As a result, you have to get on a waiting list to be a garbage man in many areas.

The work is hard. It's smelly and unglamourous. But it pays real well with good benefits and retirement.

Result: People stand in line to be garbage men.


By contrast, conservatives claim that executives need high levels of compensation so they'll take their jobs. Of course, otherwise CEOs wouldn't work. Let's see, if

* Golfing
* Wining
* Dining
* Screwing your Secretary
* Defrauding investors
* Harrassing Queers
* Attending corporate sponsored luncheons
* Looking for new work on company time
* Laying off workers and shipping their jobs overseas
* Million plus bonuses for driving a company into the ground
* 20 Million dollar bonuses for adequete performance.

Jeez. I dare say you wouldn't need very much base compensation to do attract candidates. I dare say that those same trash haulers could probably do a better job.


So yeah, if you paid americans $15/hour plus benefits, they'd be more than happy to pick peaches, pluck chickens or ... whatever.

[necso]

43. Immigration isn't evil, but like beer the intake needs controlled...

Immigrants and the children of immigrants add to the growth of the American population. American does not have unlimited national resources. We currently use an obscene percentage of all world resources. Adding population contributes to resource rape, pollutes the air, fouls the water, diminishes the wild areas and turn farmlands into useless suburbia (etc., etc.).

Most first world nations have very small or even negative population growth. Unless we are to live more balanced lifestyles (very desirable --- but with absolutely no chance) we need to control our population.

Immigrants also contribute to the surplus of labor, and generally will work for lower wages. It is easy to forget, that ignoring the Clinton years, the long term trend is towards falling real wages and a tougher job market. A surplus of labor works for the employer, a shortage of labor works for the employee. With the hemorrhaging of jobs overseas (which will not stop unless it is stopped) and the increasing marginalization of the worker, controlling the supply of labor is important for the well being of the population.

A good argument can further be made that necessary changes will not occur in countries whose discontented population just runs to the US. These people are the risk takers and malcontents who might otherwise struggle to make changes in their homelands.

Immigration in its current form (largely illegal) fosters criminal enterprise and the exploitation of the immigrant. Widespread flouting of immigration laws builds disrespect for the rule of law. The low status of the illegal immigrant and his vulnerability to his employer builds stark class divisions like this nation has not seen since antebellum days. It also diminishes the dignity of man and labor.

Moreover, a nation has the right, indeed I would say the responsibility, to control its borders, enforce its laws and do what is best for its people. This is selfish, but selfishness is the basis of our capitalist economy and one can argue, democracy itself.

It would be nice to have the luxury of allowing unlimited immigration without causing any consequences. It would be nice if everybody could have the sort of lifestyle that Americans currently do. But this is not happening. And while it is selfish to protect what we have and implicitly deny it to others, it is our right. Indeed it is what nation states are all about.

That is not to say that we should not work for the betterment of mankind at large but that we should take care of our own first.

As to that magic date when immigration should have been tightly restricted, I suggest sometime in the fifties when the outlook for the average American started its gradual decline about the same time as the "baby boom". And yes this is after all my relatives immigrated to the US. But had they stayed at home they would be in prosperous, democratic countries with universal health care, a strong safety net and that impact the environment much less negatively than does the US. There are worse things.

Now mind you I aware that our economy, our social programs, our government's fiscal policies are all a sort of pyramid scheme which a stable or diminishing population will strongly effect, perhaps harshly. European nations are dealing with this problem, and so must we sooner or later. Must we, in our endless and mindless self gratification, postpone every reckoning to some future date, when we won't be around to pay the price? This is far more reprehensible than trying in some small way to deal with some of our problems now.

[mitchum]

44. Congratulations on a very well-reasoned post

excellent work

[doc03]

45. excellent!

[doc03]

47. Joke

The other night Whoopi Goldberg said that Americans welcomed her people with open arms, as a matter of fact they even sent ships over to pick us up!

[GregW]

46. 1590

That was when the colonists on Roanoke Island were mysteriously abducted by evil aliens (note: not illegal aliens) but not before my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather carved the word CROATAN on a tree.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[_Jumper_]

52. Karl?

;)

[solinvictus]

53. Curtail all immigration

I'm in favor of a moratorium on all immigration. We're in a long recession, we have a huge deficit, and we need to cease all legal and illegal immigration until we get a handle on our domestic problems.

[_Jumper_]

54. Ok

So you favor stopping immigration during times of economic trouble. Do you object to immigration during prosperous times?