I am an atheist. What do you want to know?

[Ladyhawk]

:D

[sujan]

1. howdy

[LEFTofLEFT]

52. I was rude

I have read your words and they brought me both great joy and great sadness. Those first 21 years must have been truly horrible. I am glad that you have taken that first step away from those years. It is now crystal clear that you have given much though and effort to form your present beliefs. I want to say how very sorry i am that i was rude and challenging to your first post. It seemed very flippant.

I also rejected pedestrian religions and then claimed to be an atheist. I also looked high and low for people and words that would support my newfound beliefs. Your list of quotes is very nice. The problem is that I can find in most of those peoples work quotes that would lead away from an atheist point of view.

In the hope that you are still reading this and that you might want to exchange some thoughts I would like to make a few things clear.

Semantically atheism is abhorrent to me and seems to me to be like all other religions. Often people claim to be atheist and are really agnostic. Some claim that being agnostic is being atheist. I have no clue where you stand. I do not want to waste time in a semantic battle.

What I want is to offer my experience and the wonders I feel from taking what I believe is the proper step beyond agnosticism.

I have never put down these thoughts in an organized manner nor have I collect the many quotes that have changed me. There have been many "atheist" threads on DU in the past few days and I have been thinking about organizing my rebuttal. I want to do that now. I am slow at such things so don't expect anything soon.

I offer no god - no religion - only what I feel is the freedom to not reject or fight the ideas of what is outside the structure of our cognition.

Peace be with you LADYHAWK.

An old Hopi saying - Who are you in relation to all these many realms.

I think we might be more that the sum of our parts.

[Swalker24]

2. If there is, in fact , some sort of all powerful being

who is concerned for our "salvation", would this entity and its concept of "heaven" be entertaining enough for the sacrifices it demands of you in this place to be worth it?

[Benevolent_Rabbit]

3. Why?

.

[Benevolent_Rabbit]

4. Simple question - Why are you an atheist?

.

[Benevolent_Rabbit]

7. Simple question

Why?

[R Hickey]

9. Simple answer: I don't believe in God, because I don't believe in Santa.

"I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose."

I believe the English philosopher Bertrand Russell said that first.

[Benevolent_Rabbit]

10. thanks but I wasn't asking you

interesting and creative response.

[rogerashton]

13. That was my Dad's position.

He claimed that when he was told about Santa he immediately generalized it to the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and God. (I think ne may have been reinventing himself a little). But his more serious reason was that he believed all things are limited in time, and so, even if there might have been a creator, that being would itself be long dead.

I think there is a category error in both lines of reasoning, but Dad never bought my arguments, nor I his.

[Ladyhawk]

42. R. Hickey stole my short answer :)

The long answer is way too complicated to address in one sitting, but I suggest you read Losing Faith in Faith by Dan Barker as an exercise in intellect and Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winell, which demonstrates the harm caused fundamentalist belief systems.

The main problem I have with religious belief is that I see it as a symptom of a wider problem: the inability to think critically. When that happens, you get nut jobs like Applewhite, Jones...and George W. Bush. I don't have a problem with religion, per se. I have a problem with religionists who believe they have the only way. Fundamentalist religion is divisive. I know this from having been a fundamentalist right-winger for over twenty years. Those people are f-ing insane. I was, too.

And as for saying that belief and non-belief both require "faith," that's just ridiculous.

OK, I have a ten-inch pink-and-purple unicorn that can predict the future. If you can't disprove that, it must mean that ten-inch pink-and-purple unicorns do exist. Go ahead. Disprove it.

If we use that idea--that even negative claims must be proven--it opens the door for all kinds of ridiculous ideas. If we can't disprove that aliens who look like doorknobs and smoke pot live on a small planet orbiting the middle star in Orion's belt, then it must be true. You can't disprove it, can you? We may as well believe anything we want to believe.

Again, the burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim.

Atheists and agnostics simply acknowledge that in the absence of definitive proof of the existence of god, they will decline to believe. It's the same thing as not believing in ten-inch pink-and-purple unicorns or pot-smoking, doorknob-shaped aliens from Orion.

I'm assuming you don't believe in Zeus. Why not? Does the idea of believing in Zeus seem outrageous to you? Probably. And the reason is this: You grew up in the West where Allah and Zeus are scoffed at while Jesus is praised.

So what if most Americans believe in Jesus? At one time most people believed the sun revolved around the earth. Truth doesn't sway for popular opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, you have the right to believe that microscopic purple chimpanzees live in your pubic hair. I don't care...until you start telling me I must believe the same.

[BurtWorm]

85. Very well said, Ladyhawk

I appreciate your modesty. And I fully sympathize with your sentiments.

I'm also an atheist, though I come to it not from years and years spent as a fundamentalist. I didn't grow up thinking I was an atheist, but I suddenly realized just a few years ago, after turning 40, that that's what I am and have been most of my life. I'm totally at peace with my atheism--which I should explain to anyone who doesn't know means absense of belief in theism. I couldn't make myself be a theist. I did try, not out of a sense of social pressure, that I was aware of, but perhaps out of a little bit of jealousy. I'm not jealous anymore. I'm free!

[LearnedHand]

90. I think not accepting ANY religion...

...and "atheism" are separate things. If you're talking about that white-haired old gentleman in the sky, I don't believe in god, either. And I reject most of what religion teaches, and am, in fact, pretty firmly a-religious. I'm not sure, however, if I'm atheist. (Does that make me, by default, agnostic?)

[BurtWorm]

94. You're atheist if you lack belief in a god

But if it makes you uncomfortable to call yourself atheist, you have my permission to call yourself agnostic, even if there's a technical meaning you may not qualify for: someone who believes knowledge of god is not possible. Agnosticism, it seems to me, is more active an idea than atheism, which is simply lack of belief.

[phishhead]

5. Miss Ladyhawk....

Are you bigger than Jesus too? :)

[Ladyhawk]

44. Yeah, because he doesn't exist. :)

n/t

[Droopy]

6. Here's a good site for you in case you haven't already found it

www.truthbeknown.com It's by an atheist who's making it her business to dismantle every believer argument out there. She's got a book out destructing Christianity and one more on the way regarding other religions.

[Benevolent_Rabbit]

8. I'll take a look at it

I truly will.

[Ladyhawk]

46. Thanks! I'll add that to my bookmarks.

Just a warning to those who want to remain religious: don't start reading or thinking for yourself. The whole thing comes crashing down like a house of cards because it just isn't true.

Most of the Jesus myth is based on pagan myths that predated Christianity by centuries: http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

If god is real, how come he needs people to do the talking for him?

And by the way, if you are an atheist or an agnostic, you can help the world by coming out and telling people. When I told friends and family, guess what happened?

Christian family values: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (And yes, the Greek word is miseo, which does indeed mean "hate.")

Atheists and agnostics need to know they aren't alone.

[EOTE]

96. Agnostic here....

and while I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, I think he was a real person. Most historians, even agnostic and atheist ones believe he was real and had a following too.

[Nomad559]

11. Celebrity Atheists

Others that share yours and my belief.

http://www.celebatheists.com/

http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3837/avfeature_3837.html

[Bushfire]

22. I'm in good company

Asia Carrera and Warren Buffett plus all the other beautiful evil atheist DUers. :)

[Iverson]

12. I want your opinion.

Which do you say is currently the most acceptable group against which to have a prejudice in our culture: atheists, obese people, gays and lesbians, Middle-Easterners?

Thanks in advance.

[rogerashton]

14. Having lived my life with atheists

and other freethinkers -- and I consider myself a freethinker, but not an atheist -- I would say that there is a great deal of prejudice against atheists, and some prejudice against all sorts of freethinkers, among those who consider themselves to be respectable.

[Booberdawg]

15. gays and lesbians

Hands down

[Nomad559]

16. Barna survey

I suspect most people would say Middle-Easterners. Because of 911

Do you know who Is one of the least likeable groups in the country Is?

http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=20398

PROSTITUTES :wtf: This survey must be wrong }(

How did the evangelical Christians beat out prostitutes. :7





Edit - I left out a couple of words :+

[SOteric]

18. Of those which you list,

I would say Middle-Easterners, then obese persons.

However, I doubt the idea that it is commonly acceptable to have prejudice in our current cultural climate against atheists. I think there was a time 100 years ago when Christianity seemed to be society's default position. In that time and for centuries before atheism and atheists were decried as unsupportable positions to hold or simply insane.

In the last 50-60 years there seems to have been a complete flip-flopping of positions. Atheism seems now to be the default position and Christianity, especially Fundamentalism is decried as insane and unsupportable.

While I can understand why to a large extent Fundamentalism invites criticism,brings it upon itself; as a progressive liberal I find it reprehensible that rather than learn inclusion, we have simply changed whom we persecute.

I think as a society we in the U.S. liberal community like to tell ourselves that we don't discriminate on the basis of race, color, creed, religion, sex, ancestry, disability, or national origin. Yet one has to take a long hard look at the words creed and religion. We don't discriminate, - unless they're Fundies. Then our bigotry is somehow justified. I believe the minute we tell ourselves such a thing, we lose the right to think of ourselves as progressives.


Thank you for allowing me to derail your inquiry with my little screed. You may now resume your regularly schedule programming.

[short bus president]

24. The "progressive" or "liberal" beef with fundamentalism

for this liberal, anyway, is the bigotry inherent in that belief system (the "my way or the hell way" aspect of it). Only in an exceedingly relativistic worldview can intolerance of bigotry be viewed as bigotry itself.

[Ladyhawk]

48. Is being intolerant of intolerance wrong?

I've wondered that myself. And I've decided that to tolerate intolerance is wrong. Would you tolerate the intolerance of the Nazis?

However, I think a line needs to be drawn. Here's how I draw it: If religionists' beliefs are adversely affecting my life, they need to keep it to themselves. They can pray at home, put pictures in their home, worship in church, put bumper stickers on their car. But when they start bringing it into the public sector, it is not only wrong, it is unconstitutional. Wouldn't you hear them screaming if the pledge of allegiance went like this:

One nation,
under no god because god does not exist,
indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.

I wouldn't want that in public school, would you? Making children say "under God" is just as ridiculous because we all know exactly which God, don't we? Oh how the fundies would throw a fit if you simply substituted the word "God" with "Allah." And they should! The problem is, they should be throwing a fit now! But this little unconstitutional phrase fits their agenda just fine right now, so they're not about to bow to law and common decency.

[Iverson]

63. nope, just intolerance of my query in #12

n/t

[mrbill]

17. do you believe in the golf gods or the dream people?

"all because i felt it, i believe." - gracie slick.

[Ladyhawk]

58. No.

n/t

[short bus president]

19. Will you marry me?

Kidding, of course. But nice to meet another out-of-the-closet nonbeliever, anytime. :thumbsup: to you!

[Ladyhawk]

57. Thanks!

Dan Barker was my inspiration. He was a PREACHER, for crying out loud! And when he made the break, he let everyone know: parents, friends, the media. Of course, he had such a great relationship with his parents, they actually listened to his arguments and ended up ditching religion, too.

My parents won't listen to anything they don't already agree with. That's too bad. I sort of understand where they're coming from because I had to go through an excruciating process of self-evaluation to arrive at my present conclusions. It can really hurt to put your beliefs under a microscope. I think sometimes I forget just how much it can hurt.

[markses]

20. God is dead

There is no God, but not because there is no "proof" for the existence of God. This is the weak atheist argument that relies on a scientific and rationalist definition of proof - which is itself both historically contingent and - as Nietzsche demonstrated - imbued with the assumptions of the old Christian theology. That's why it is so easy for "believers" to turn the argument around and accuse atheism of "faith." They are absolutely correct. An atheism that denies God on the basis of scientific rationality IS a faith-based atheism. Rather, there is no God because we can positively draw out a series of contingent developments in the history of thought that develops "God" as an idea and a force. God works, or at least worked.

Nobody really believes in the afterlife, because nobody's BODY believes in it.

But Nietzsche is quite right to say God is dead. He is not, of course, referring to an actual existent entity that at one time "lived," and since has "died." That's why the incredibly stupid "'God is dead' - Nietzsche...'Nietzsche is dead' - God..Har Har Har" stuff is only uttered by the most ignorant elements of religious communities. Rather, Nietzsche's statement (uttered before him, of course, by Hegel and others) is self-demonstrative. As soon as it becomes possible to SAY "God is dead," the whole system of thought which enforced the necessity of God in thought has lost its dominant force. It is dead, and so then is God. Now what's left of God is his ghost, the residual. And ghosts do work. But this entire thread is testimony to the correctness of Nietzsche's expression. If God were not dead, we wouldn't be having this discussion...

[Keithpotkin]

78. guess what....so is nietzsche

.

[Jesus Christ]

92. Dad's not dead! He's standing right next to Me!

But verily, I do not know where Nietzsche is at the moment :-)

[gully]

21. I'm not...

:hi:

BTW, I believe in God b/c I see what has been created by God. I see things that can't be logically explained away by science.

I do recall doubting when I found out about Santa though? My baby sitter told me Santa collided with a 747. Oh the trauma that ensued. Finally, in an effort to calm me, my Mom spilled the beans and said, Santa isn't dead, there never was a Santa. PHEW!

However, in a strange sorta way, I'm glad for how things turned out. Why you may ask? Because I questioned the existence of God from that day forward. And, those questions have led me on a spiritual exploration that continues today.

I never did tell my daugther there was a Santa. But, I do tell her there is a God.

I fully respect your right to believe as you wish however. Hoping you respect my right to the same.

[MiltonLeBerle]

45. how do you know-

That what you are seeing was created by "God"?

[gully]

65. Can't say I know for sure...

But there is much evidence that there is a God as far as I am concerned.

Giving birth was evidence for me. Can't explain the spiritual though, and I won't try to hard.

However, for me personally God is things like; the appreciation of beauty, the fact that we love, the fact that we have desire to live, the fact that my child knew how to nurse, the fact that we have 'flowers.' I know that sounds 'silly' but that's my evidence.

Perhaps Science will explain these things away for some, but not for me personally.

[AnnabelLee]

23. Have you been an atheist all your life

or did you at one time believe in a god or gods?

[moosedog]

25. I have alway been suspect....

of being sent to sunday school and reciting the songs like Jesus loves me because the bible tells me so... like you are a puppet and God pulls the strings, ...things like that. I still think that a lot of people use God to manipulate and control. I don't know about a larger power etc. I just don't know. I know that when I'm loving and caring and think of other's and feel that I'm just a small part of something much better, that I am happy. I think that happiness is heaven.

[Ladyhawk]

59. In one of his songs, Dan Barker

says that happiness is the only good.

If that is true, I have a lot of developing to do. :(

[Ladyhawk]

50. I believed in the Christian fundamentalist god

for the first twenty-one years of my life. I was thoroughly, completely brainwashed at home, church and school. Between ages twenty-one and twenty-five I gave up belief in the Christian god, but still hoped there was "something" there. Events in the past three years--I'm almost 36 now--forced me to see reality. There is no god (or at least, there is no god who is actively involved with humanity) and I really am mortal.

That last realization was a doozy. Most of my life I had believed in an immortal soul. I finally realized that immortality was just a lie generated by religionists. I was in a state of panic for months as I dealt with the fact that I will die. Permanently.

Here's my take on how religions evolved (excerpted from another post on another forum, far, far away):

I've been there and done this. And what I've come to accept as the truth is far from comforting, but at least if there is no heaven, it follows there is also no hell. Even though it would be very comforting to believe in something spiritual, I've had to reject that anything more than this physical, natural world exists. My own personal opinion is that one unprovable religious philosophy is no better than any other unprovable religious philosophy. You're just trading one lie for another to make yourself feel better.

Now, this is my opinion. I believe it to be a well-thought-out opinion, but if someone with spiritual beliefs can convince me otherwise, I'm still open to belief. I'm not trying to put down those of you who have sought another way, but those ways don't make any more sense to me than Christianity did. I came to this conclusion after years and years of thought, soul-searching, prayer, beseeching an unseen being, etc. etc. etc. I did not find the neat, tidy, feel-good answer I wanted. Instead, I think I found the truth.

Question: why do we have religions? Why do we feel a need to "fill the void" left behind by Christianity?

The only answer to this that makes sense to me is a natural one. As humans, we began to evolve big brains. Because we lacked claws, teeth, and were basically puny, we found that we had a need to see patterns in things. Could we distinguish a tasty green snake from its green surroundings? Could we discern the mottled brown coat of a threatening lion from the dry brown grass of the plains?

Fear and pain are tools for survival. Fear kept us from being eaten by predators so that we could pass on our genes to the next generation. Pain was an indicator that bodily harm had occurred and that death could soon follow--which would also keep us from passing on our genes to the next generation. Fear and pain are biological imperatives in the story of evolution. They aren't pretty, and by necessity they are negative.

As our brains grew and our ability to see patterns grew with it, we noticed some very troubling patterns. People got sick, hurt, and--oh my god!--everyone dies! This induced great levels of fear, which is an avoidance response. Most animals live day to day and don't think about such things because they don't have enough brain power to do so. People don't have that luxury, but we are still programmed with fear.

To give himself a feeling of power over fear and pain, man created religion. You've seen the shaman dancing and chanting around the campfire. He beseeches the powers that be to protect his people from sickness, to provide meat for his clan.

As man evolved, religion did, too. Now we have monotheistic gods like biblegod and allah. And not only can they intervene to keep fear and pain away from us, they can also take us to heaven when we die. Fear of death is the ultimate fear. If we die, we cannot pass on our genes to the next generation. That is the ultimate programmed biological imperative. So death is to be avoided at all costs. Problem is, everyone dies.

So man creates an afterlife to make himself feel better. People don't really die after all. Man has created all kinds of afterlife experiences: heaven, hell, purgatory, and reincarnation. They are all an attempt to lessen the fear of that ultimate--yet inevitable--thing to be avoided: death.

Religions--all of them--are nothing more than constructs to ward off fear and pain. They evolved right along with mankind. That's why there are so many of them. That's why none of them make any sense--because none of them are based on reality. They are nothing more a futile attempt to ward off the inevitable pain and fear of the natural world.

That is also why people cling to their religions so ferociously. If someone shows them that their religion makes no sense, it leaves them open to fear and pain and the idea that death really is final. People will die for their religion (ironic, huh?). And as we saw on 9-11-01, they will kill for their religion, too.

I know this sounds bleak. It is bleak. Sometimes the truth is brutal.

Religion has become an evolved survival strategy. Spirituality is a part of our genetic makeup. That's why we all crave something more, even if that something more doesn't really exist.

So, if that is the truth, where do we go from here? How do we create positivity, love, kindness, morality--all those other good human inventions--if in the end it is all meaningless? Sometimes these thoughts really get me down. All I know is that life is a mixture of beauty and brutality, joy and pain, love and fear. I try to find "meaning" in small things. When I can, I laugh, because I may never have the opportunity to do so again.

[gully]

66. I think Christian Fundamentalism loses many of us 'thinking' people

Even those who feel that there is a God.

[flama]

79. Man created God

in his own image - and Allah, Vishnu, Shiva, etc., etc.

Why did man feel the need to create an omnipotent power? You've outlined the reasons rather well.

Man needs to know why he exists - and why flowers exist, and floods, earthquakes, and disease. He needs rules to live by. No one had to bring stone tablets down from a mountain to tell me it was wrong to steal or kill. (Maybe someone should bring some stone tablets to the White House.)

If this is all there is, maybe we deserve what we get. If this is all there is, we should make the best of it. If this is all there is, we should treat others like we would like to be treated and not see them for their gender, religion, sexual preferences, skin color, physical prowess or lack thereof. (I know that sounds a lot like the Golden Rule with added verbage.)

In some way, I embrace the pain, joy, and fear that surrounds my life. It makes me feel that I'm alive. I do my best to chase fear and pain from my friends and bring them joy instead. I know that I can't banish all their fear and pain, but that's what makes the joy more joyful.

My grandfather (who died before I was born) used to say that if we lived our lives as if there were a god and he were the most vengeful god we could imagine, that god would forgive us if the worst thing we ever did was not believe in him. My grandfather said he was an Athiest. I thought him more an Agnostic, but then we never had the chance to talk.

I haven't yet decided if I'm an Athiest or an Agnostic. It probably doesn't even matter. One thing I do know, though - the only Blind Faith I ever had was a record album.

Ma

P.S. Your last paragraph made me rather sad. Laugh when you can, Ladyhawk. Laugh whenever you get the chance.

[sasquatch]

88. What do you think happens when we die?

I think all the bastards of the world rot in the hell they tell us we're going to. I think good people will go to heaven and party all the time:)

[Jesus Christ]

93. Why do ye call it "Christian fundamentalism"

...when it hath nothing to do with My fundamental teachings? :shrug:

[0rganism]

26. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Can God make a rock so heavy even He can't move it?

If God is everywhere, is He in the toilet?

Does omniscience preclude freewill?

Who's fault is evil?

Would it be gauche to ask Santa Clause for a Lamborghini Countach on God's birthday?

[gully]

27. Well, in an attempt to answer your complex questions ...

I'm no theologin (sp) mind you...but...

I will attempt to answer the complex issues you have addressed below;

Angels, dancing on pins? I would say about 220, provided they are average sized angels.

I don't think God is into moving rocks, but if he/she it was is into moving rocks, I'd say it would take quite a while to move a rather large one. And, then it would be explained away by 'omniscientific' jargon.

I don't think God would want to be 'in the toilet' per-se, I imagine there is a choice about such things.

What's omniscience?

Evil just 'is' just like Good just 'is' and Bush just 'is'.

Ask Santa for whatever you wish, just don't expect him to get down the chimney with that Lamborghini.

[Ladyhawk]

61. OK, this will be difficult, but...

1. Can God make a rock so heavy even He can't move it?

Since you are asking someone who doesn't believe in god, this question is moot. :)

2. If God is everywhere, is He in the toilet?

God is nowhere, so no, he isn't in your toilet. Piss, poop and fart at will. He will smite thee not.

3. Does omniscience preclude freewill?

Yes. This is one of the very arguments that convinced me that if god exists he cannot be omniscient and still allow free will.

4. Whose fault is evil?

Evil is a construct of human morality. Generally speaking, that which contributes to human happiness is good; that which contributes to human misery is evil.

5. Would it be gauche to ask Santa Claus for a Lamborghini Countach on God's birthday?

Since neither exist, this question is also moot.

These opinions brought to you by An Atheist Who Used to Believe in All That Jesus Stuff™

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NightTrain]

29. How do you keep your religious friends and relatives from...

...praying for you? Using non-violent methods, I mean.

[Ladyhawk]

56. They can pray all they want.

As I learned from my own life, it doesn't do diddly squat. Nothing fails like prayer.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LEFTofLEFT]

31. WELL - I'm waiting ......

So you know that there is no god - that takes a lot of brains.

is the proof secrete?????

waiting.......

waiting.......


HEY - I WANT TO KNOW!!!!!

[LEFTofLEFT]

34. YEP -

some people who claim to be atheist have never really thought about what that means

i find it is almost always a belief - a belief that is much more damaging than any other religion

do you pray to your no god?

[NightTrain]

40. I know exactly what it means to be an atheist!

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

a) disbelief in the existence of deity
b) the doctrine that there is no deity

Seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

[lazarus]

72. explain, please

how atheism is more damaging than religion.

[BurtWorm]

86. "do you pray to your no god?" What a ridiculous question!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LEFTofLEFT]

36. You sound a little hostile

I just am looking for some answers

lady hawk implied that she had all the answers
that seems to be the logical conclusion from her assertion

if there is a god he does not talk to me
i am only an ass when some one teases me with reality
when she says something really stupid
two
that is the dumbest question i have heard in many moons
i can't spell
many - you are in the running
Yes - i know many things - i'm a mathmatician and can prove many things - but these are only constructs of the mind -i think the thing i believe are more real than the things that i "know"
not sure that i understand this question - it could lead to an interesting discussion - with someone who could fram it correctly
no
no

I don't understand the religion of atheism or the people that practice it.
I believe that it is very dangerous, much more dangeroous than other religions.
it has happened that people have moved from atheism to agnostisism when challenged with the contradictions
what is your horse doing here?

[0rganism]

37. Do you believe exceptional claims require exceptional proof?

I think the distinction between atheists and agnostics is one of semantics, that belief in the supernatural must be positively specific to be called theist. That is to say, an agnostic who says, "I believe I cannot know whether a godlike entity exists or does not exist," is making a claim no more neutral than an atheist who says, "I believe no godlike entity exists."

With what contradictions would you challenge an atheist?

[short bus president]

38. A positive expression of atheism expresses certainty

that I find rationally as untenable as the certainty of the theist. Both are "faith based." The theist is certain there is a god and the positive atheist is certain there is not. Neither can offer definitive logical proof.

"Agnosticism" means too many different things to too many different people to be a useful term. A negative expression of atheism, however ("I do not believe that there is a god") seems to me a perfectly reasonable position to hold. Thus it is my belief.

[lazarus]

39. LOL

What, exactly, is the religion of atheism? Does that mean I'm tax free now? How is it more dangerous than other religions?

Have you not taken any logic classes at all? Do you understand the difference between these statements?

>I believe there is not god.

>I do not believe there is a god.

Those are totally different statements.

But I'd really like to hear more about this religion of atheism. What's the creed? Are there ceremonies? Do I need any special equipment?

[NightTrain]

41. A pagan friend used that "religion of atheism" B.S. on me

I have no religious beliefs, which is why I consider myself an atheist. And yet, my lack of religious beliefs means that I practice a religion. Un-fargin-believable!

[LEFTofLEFT]

49. twist your mind as you like

believe what you like

You "believe there is no god" I spend my time and energy believing that

purple shit eaters don't fart - I think that it is important for everybody to know

that i believe that purple shit eaters don't fart.

I can't prove that purple shit eaters don't fart but that does not matter because

I believe that purple shit eaters don't fart.

Why is it important that i want others to know (i mean believe) that purple shit eaters

don't fart - hell i don't know - I just believe that it is important that

others believe that purple shit eaters don't fart.

Do you believe that purple shit eaters fart?

[lazarus]

53. LOL

I never said I "believe there is no god". That's the point you're having serious trouble comprehending, apparently.

I do not believe there is a god. That's totally different, and all the intentional obtuseness in the world can't change that fact.

Atheism is the default position of lack of belief. Some atheists go further and express a positive belief that there is no god. I can't support that position, so I don't express it. I simply don't believe in something for which there is no evidence.

[LEFTofLEFT]

60. so you don't not disbelieve that there is not no god - i understand

you have made it perfectly clear

It was just a little semantic misunderstandableness. :)

[lazarus]

62. LOL

It's even easier than that, and doesn't require semantics at all. I don't believe there is a god.

Why is that so difficult for people to grasp? Do you believe in Invisible Pink Unicorns?

[Az]

67. Spend time thinking there is no god?

I don't think you will find many atheists sitting around contemplating the nonexistance of god as a issue in their life. It is much more realistic to be concerned about the actions of those that do believe things. It is their affect on our lives that is real. They seek to change our rights. They seek to change our country. Not all of course but there are some that are very very active in trying to alter this nation.

Atheism is a reactionary position. If there were no theists there would be no reason to designate one's self atheist. Just as I do not have to point out the fact that I am an asmurfist I would not have to point out the fact that I have no belief in god or gods if it were not for the plethora of people that actually do. It is the same with any situation that brings about a seperation. If there were no other 'races' we would not bother with appelations associated with color. If there were only one gender we would not take the time to distinguish gender. As it is the dominant state is belief in gods. There are numerous variants even within that set and they each have their own codes. The subset of individuals that do not believe are going to be labeled and judged based on the dominant criteria even if it is a false judgement. That is the others are a religion while atheists are not. Its a limit of how the dominant set sees the world.

[NightTrain]

69. In other words....

...you don't mind atheists as long as they act religious in public. And you have the nerve to call yourself "LEFTofLEFT?" Try "RIGHTofRIGHT," pal!

[JanMichael]

32. Who's you're favorite secular author?

Camus & Kundera are mine.

[Iverson]

33. that's a toughie

I'd say Kurt Vonnegut, although Mark Twain, Percy Bysshe Shelley, and Bertrand Russell are really great too. Also, it's hard to answer for certain because some authors don't make their beliefs widely known.

[Ladyhawk]

54. So far I am liking Dan Barker and Bertrand Russell.

I am getting ready to dive into Carl Sagan' Demon-Haunted World. His book looks very thought-challenging. I try to let no thought go unchallenged, so in my current state (not very well), I've decided to postpone it a bit to recover from the last assumption I had to challenge. This whole "examined life" thing gets tiring.

[Ladyhawk]

43. Some of my favorite anti-religionist quotes :)

"Indeed I am an avowed atheist. Maybe more so now than ever. You never hear about meta-righteous militant monsters attacking anyone in the name of, you know, skepticism." -Mark Morford

"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve." -Rev. Jerry Falwell on the WTC attack

"I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting." -- Bertrand Russell

"Faith is believing in what you know ain't true." --Mark Twain

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."-- Carey Goldberg. "Why Are We Here?" International Herald Tribune, Paris ed., no. 36,125; Monday, Apr. 26, 1999; p. 10.

"God: The Preeminent Chameleon; whenever the need is felt by one or more of his followers, He oblingingly recreates himself to suit the occasion."--"Rev." Donald Morgan

"It's an incredible con job when you think about it, to believe something now in exchange for something after death. Even corporations with their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous."--Gloria Steinem

"I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But as much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking."--Carl Sagan (most from The Demon-Haunted World)

"The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look Death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides."--Carl Sagan

"There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's perfectly all right; they're the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process. To be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny."--Carl Sagan

"Same religion that saves - Damns you"--Sepultura

"There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, fights, malignant opposition, persecution, and war, and all evil in the state, as religion. Let it once enter our civil affairs, our government would soon be destroyed. Let it once enter our common schools, they would be destroyed."--Supreme Court of Wisconsin, Weiss vs. District Board, March 18, 1890

"Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to me to be empty and devoid of meaning."-- Albert Einstein

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." -- Albert Einstein

"The contemplation of this world beckoned as a liberation (...)The road to this paradise was not as comfortable and alluring as the road to the religious paradise; but it has shown itself reliable, and I have never regretted having chosen it."-- Albert Einstein (Autobiographical Notes)

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."-- Blaise Pascal

"How many evils have flowed from religion!"-- Lucretius

"No God, no Master."-- Margaret Sanger

"Religion is not merely the opium of the masses, it's the cyanide."-- Tom Robbins

"Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery."-- Robert Ingersoll

"Religion is all bunk."-- Thomas Edison

"If God kills, lies, cheats, discriminates, and otherwise behaves in a manner that puts the Mafia to shame, that's Okay, he's God. He can do whatever he wants. Anyone who adheres to this philosophy has had his sense of morality, decency, justice and humaneness warped beyond recognition by the very book that is supposedly preaching the opposite." -- Dennis McKinsey, of the newsletter Biblical Errancy

"Faith is an absolutely marvelous tool. With faith there is no belief that cannot be justified." -- Rev. Donald Morgan (b. 1933), Atheist theologian

"Most people are bothered by those passages of scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I DO understand." -- Mark Twain

"I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do." --D. Dale Gulledge

"Fascism is a religious concept."--Benito Mussolini

"We may define "faith" as the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of "faith." We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups, substitute different emotions."--Bertrand Russell

"If the liberties of the American people are ever destroyed, they will fall by the hands of the clergy."--General Marquis De Lafayette, 1789

"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."--Anne Lamott

"The National Government will therefore regard as its first and supreme task to restore to the German people unity of mind and will. It will preserve and defend the foundations on which the strength of our nation rests. It will take under its firm protection Christianity as the basis of our morality, and the family as the nucleus of our nation and our State." Nazism, A History in Documents and Eyewitness Accounts

"Religion is a monumental chapter in the history of human egotism."--William James (1842-1910),

"The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history."--Noam Chomsky

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it doesn't go away."-- Philip K. Dick

"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness." --George Washington, Jan.8, 1790

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned."--unknown or anonymous

"It is as morally bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good as it is not to care how you got your money as long as you have got it." --Edmund Way Tecle, 1950

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." --Carl Sagan

"Out of all of the sects of the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in *their* religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one." --Richard Dawkins

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

"There was a time when religion ruled the world. It was known as the dark ages." --Ruth Hurmence

“Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone to man.” - Thomas Jefferson

“Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear-thinking, honesty, fairness and, above all, love of truth.” - H. L. Mencken

“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.” -George Bernard Shaw

“Fear believes--courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays--courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism--courage is civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is religion. Courage is science.” - Robert Ingersoll

“Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.” - Voltaire

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus

"Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things. One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, dirty thing on the face of the earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock

"I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen L. Roberts

And all the people said...AMEN! :D

[NightTrain]

76. Here's one you forgot

"When doing business with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing! His word isn't worth shit; not with the 'good lord' telling him how to fuck you on the deal."

--Williams S. Burroughs

[Lady Freedom]

47. Do you yell...

out "OH GOD!" when having the big O?

[Lady Freedom]

51. Are you going to answer my first question?

:eveilgrin:

[Ladyhawk]

55. Well, if you've seen my other thread,

you would realize I've never actually experienced what you call "the big O." :)

So, I'm not sure. If/when I have my first orgasm, I may scream to Krishna and suddenly realize that the Hare Krishnas have the one true religion. ;)

[Blue_Chill]

64. What's better

Mint Chocalte Chip Ice Cream from Breyers

-or-

Mint Chocolate Cookie from Ben & Jerry's

[gully]

68. I am reading about omniscience and atheism

frankly, it sounds as narrow as does christian fundamentalism.

For instance many of the atheist arguements don't respect differing views on God/Christ/Buddah/Mohamed ect... JMHO mmmk?

Example below:

What do Unitarians believe?

"We believe that the truth is best served where the mind and conscience are free...
We believe in religious liberty, free from the constraints of imposed creeds and dogmas...

We practise free and enquiring religion, through the worship of God and the celebration of life, the service of humanity and the reverence for all creation...

We affirm the liberal religious heritage, seeking wisdom and knowledge in the spiritual, cultural and intellectual insights of all humankind...

We recognise the worth and dignity of every person, maintaining their right to civil and religious liberty..." etc, etc..


http://www.ssci.liv.ac.uk/~mcgrath/uruc/beliefs.html
http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/weare.html
http://www.anzua.org/anzua/Unitarian%20Beliefs.cfm

There are other open minded religions but I posted the UU beliefs as an example.

[lazarus]

70. Atheism isn't narrow at all

Atheism is simply a lack of belief. That's it. Do you find your lack of belief in Invisible Pink Unicorns to be narrow and fundie?

[gully]

71. Well lets suppose...

that there was overwhelming support or belief in invisible pink unicorns. Say that belief transcended thousands of years and many cultural barriers. Say that belief even touched people who have never seen civilization. Were that the case, I'd at least of the perspective that they 'may' exist and thus be open to the possibility...

Thus my belief in the 'rigidity' of the atheist belief system.

[lazarus]

73. Heh heh

For thousands of years, people believed that the earth was flat.

For thousands of years, people believed in the divine right of kings.

This is a logical fallacy called vox populi. The number of believers in a proposition has nothing to do with the logical validity of that proposition.

I don't believe in a god of any sort. If someone came to me with some evidence, I'd entertain the possibility that a god exists. In the meantime, why waste time entertaining the notion, since no evidence has ever been forthcoming?

[gully]

74. What is your idea of evidence?

I feel evidence is subjective to an open mind.

By the way, there are still people who believe the earth to be flat. I suppose because all they see is a flat surface??

However futile it may be, here's some evidence for you to ponder...

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html

http://www.doesgodexist.org/AboutClayton/PastLife.html

http://www.doesgodexist.org

I'm not trying to 'convert' you though :) as I am not threatened by your beliefs.

And, while were on the subject of evidence, can you provide me with some evidence that atheism it is not a narrow perspective? :shrug:

Somehow though, I doubt either of us will leave this thread with a changed mind. :freak:

[0rganism]

80. What is your idea of narrow?

Here is a critique of some of the "evidence" you linked.

One evidence offered was the notion of a universe expanding from a singularity as evidence of a "beginning." Whether or not this constitutes a beginning depends on what preceded the singularity. It is still an open scientific debate as to whether the universe reaches an "omega point" at which it begins to contract. In a universe perceived to be monitonically contracting, one might use the same argument to conclude there was no beginning, only an ending, with equal validity. Furthermore, as it is spacetime itself which appears to approach singularity, there is no past evidenced beyond that in which matter, energy, and spacetime appear to (co)exist.

There is, for example, the theory of an oscillating cosmos, where space expands and contracts periodically.

And none of this points to anything divine or external to the cosmos or counter to the self-existence of the universe.

The second point is based on a complete misunderstanding of modern cosmology. The sun fuses as it falls together by gravity, radiating energy, but no one claims the process is eternal, neverending, without beginning. Indeed, the solar system has an age, and one can see stars forming and dying with a good telescope. The solar beginning is on another order from the cosmic beginning, there are many solar beginnings and the process continues today for all we know.

The third notion, based on the 2nd law of thermodynamics, has two premises: (1)that the universe is a closed system, and (2)that the universe is irreversibly decaying. Niether one of these is discussed at length, but both are open topics in cosmology. To pretend they are cut and dried is, at best, misleading.

Tangentially, insisting that the universe itself must be subject to the 2LOT to prove that there is an unspecified entity outside the universe which is not, seems like a bass-ackwards way of doing things. But if you think that's the kind of "evidence" that quenches your thirst for knowledge, then I shant dissuade you further.

[gully]

82. I didn't have a thirst for knowledge personally.

:evilgrin:

I am perfectly confident/happy with my ambiguous beliefs... ;)

[0rganism]

75. Most of us are atheists with respect to most religions that have existed

Devoutly religious people are making a single exception for the deity/ies of their choice.

Also for this reason, I think agnosticism is little more than a timid statement of atheism. If you believe it is unknowable if a given system of religious belief is Truth, you certainly don't engage in that system of religious belief in any serious way.

Theist: "There exists an entity or group of entities such that it is creator or ruler of the cosmos."

Atheist: "There exists no entity or group of entities such that it is creator or ruler of the cosmos."

Gnostic: "There exists specific knowledge or evidence of an entity or group of entities such that it is creator or ruler of the cosmos."

Agnostic: "There does not exist specific knowledge or evidence of an entity or group of entities such that it is creator or ruler of the cosmos."

The agnostic is just hedging the position the atheist has willingly taken, that we lack certain knowledge of the existence and nature of the divine. Given direct evidence, the agnostic would be intrinsically no more or less likely to undergo a major positional switch than the atheist. Both atheists and agnostics acknowledge having seen the same degree of convincing evidence supporting any particular mythos: none.

[Nomad559]

77. Atheism

RELIGIOUS ACCUSATION: Atheism is a religion!

ATHEIST REPLY: Like baldness is a hair color ?

[gully]

81. Narrow according to dictionary.com

"Lacking flexibility; rigid: narrow opinions."

Narrow Minded = "Lacking tolerance, breadth of view"

I don't think one has to be dogmatic to be serious. In fact, I think it's un-healthy to be so serious that one becomes closed-minded.

Note: the following quote from a recent story in the Guardian about 'conservatism.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1017505,00.html

A study funded by the US government has concluded that conservatism can be explained psychologically as a set of neuroses rooted in "fear and aggression, dogmatism and the intolerance of ambiguity".

"This intolerance of ambiguity can lead people to cling to the familiar, to arrive at premature conclusions, and to impose simplistic cliches and stereotypes," the authors argue in the Psychological Bulletin.

Atheist: "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods." (Sounds intolerant to me.)

Agnostic: "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. or ... One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something." *A more tolerant (albeit less serious) position then Atheism ... or Theism for that matter.*

Tolerant
"Inclined to tolerate the beliefs, practices, or traits of others;

Intolerant
"Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs."

:crazy:

[gully]

84. Most theists are religious with respect to most atheistic beliefs...

;) I'm kidding of course, but...how do we know that Atheists didn't exist before Theists and, that Theism is not a response to Atheism?

It's kind of like asking; what came first the chicken or the egg? :think:

OK, I'm outta here gang. It's been 'real' or has it?...*snicker* :freak:

:hi:

[GOPBasher]

83. My question:

Did you grow up in some religious tradition? I ask because my family brought me up as a Catholic. When I was in college I became an Atheist for a while, probably because I studies physics, so the science attitude of "prove-it-to-me" prevailed. Over the last few years, I've become religious again, but not a specific religion, just kind of generic religious beliefs -- kind of a mix of eastern and western religions.

Anyway, back to my question. I ask this because I'm wondering if other Atheists went through the same process as I did. Were you brought up in a religious family? Were you always an Atheist or did you become one at some point.

Just curious :)

[Vrai]

95. Big toe in the lake

Does membership in the San Francisco Unitarian Universalist Society qualify me as an Atheist?

This reply to your qustion will hopefully inspire someone to reveal the location of the Bay area pot luck picnic.

As an aged Native Californian, I know a snipe hunt when I see one.

[incontrovertible]

87. from whence

did the medium in which the Big Bang occurred, originate?

I'm familiar with Hawking's "String Theory" origins. I just can't figure out how Mathematics could exist in a vacuum, then escape that vacuum, create its own physical medium, and populate that medium with matter and energy. As I understand Hawking's summation, his answer essentially boils down to: "It just did."

Most atheist apologists answer this with "Extrordinary Claims Require Extrordinary Evidence." Which is to say, "I don't have an answer for that question, so I challenge you to prove that God exists, instead."

[BurtWorm]

91. This atheist is comfortable with uncertainty

Whether the answer to your question is "From God" or "Through some process we don't understand yet," we simply don't have enough information to say right now either way, or any way, with any certitude. It's just not that pressing a question to me, most of the time. Is it for you?

[CanuckAmok]

89. How do you damn the Pusherman? n/t