fun with blasphemy- are Jesus and Lucifer the same person?

[arcane1]

:evilgrin: I think I have too much spare time today (plese note the tongue-in-cheek nature of this post, no bashing intended)

Check it out:

the name Lucifer only appears once, and only in the King James version:

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

ok, look at that verse in the New American Standard version:

Isaiah 14:12
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

all the other English versions use a variation on this morning star theme. Presumably this is because "lucifer" is either a name of a star (or a being associated with stars), or it's the actual word for 'morning star'. Either way, "lucifer" and 'morning star' are apparently one and the same.

where else does this morning star business appear? A few places, all dealing with some kind of 'blessing' that morning stars give, etc.

And then there is this one interesting verse:

(New American Standard)
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."


King James agrees:

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.


pretty trippy, huh? :-)

[Aristus]

1. Jesus is the Son of God.

Lucifer was the Son of Morning, or the Angel of the Morning (calling Juice Newton...)

Lucifer was also apparantly a king of some sort in the Holy Land in ancient times. I guess that causes confusion amongst scholars trying to figure out the origins of Satan.

[NightTrain]

17. Know who else is the same person?

Leo Sayer and Richard Simmons.

Think about: no sooner did Sayer disappear from the public view then Simmons blew in on the scene. Coincidence? I think not!

[arcane1]

18. and Kiss is really Cheap Trick!

:evilgrin:

[NightTrain]

21. How about Jesus and Elvis?

Just think of the remarkable similarities between those two men:

--The Son of God. Sun Studios

--Jesus said, "Cast your bread upon the waters." Elvis often ate *his* bread with peanut butter and bananas on it.

--Jesus said, "Love thy neighbor." Elvis said, "Don't be cruel."

--Judas betrayed Jesus to the Romans. Sam Phillips sold Elvis' contract to RCA for a lousy $35,000.

--The Resurrection. The 1968 Comeback Special.

--Jesus was nailed to a cross by those who doubted his divinity. Elvis was mercilessly ridiculed and parodied by those who doubted his talent.

--Jesus' mother was the Blessed Virgin. Elvis' mother was a goddamned drunk.

[arcane1]

24. many Elvis fans would call THAT blasphemy!

personally, I think Jesus would have better taste in both music AND drugs

:evilgrin:

[SPICYHOT]

29. and the chimp of your pic...

is really little georgie!

[arcane1]

30. according to actual chimps...

what you said is blasphemy :-)

[Khephra]

2. So much of Christianity/Satanism depends on that one little word

Which almost every non-fundie scholar (that I've read) agrees shouldn't be considered the name of any Angel.

It's a strange world....

[RememberJohn]

3. The Bible alludes to Jesus and Michael the Arch Angel being the same...

... if interested, ask me how.

[arcane1]

4. interesting

how? :evilgrin:

[AntiCoup2K4]

6. You'll only learn how after subscribing to The Watchtower magazine.

The idea that Jesus is Michael is Jehova's Witness doctrine. They seem to reach this conclusion because Michael led the angels in Heaven that fought against Lucifer's rebellion, and that Michael also argued with Satan over the body of Moses. Proof that Michael is a high ranking angel, no doubt, but hardly evidence that he's JC.

Now on the other hand, there's the Mormon theory that Lucifer is the second son of Elohim (God) and younger brother of Jesus. The story here is that Satan's rebellion was born of jealousy that Elohim chose His eldest son's plan for the Earth over his (Lucifer's).

[arcane1]

9. wow, that dysfunctional family almost sounds Romanesque!

I had no idea the Big Guy could create such unruly children...

is Mary the mother of both?

[RememberJohn]

12. You're only partially right - but a bit off. Read post #10

... Not only is it a WatchTower belief, but of some Baptists and other denominations, too, going back to the 15 century.

(Jehovah's Witnesses borrowed a lot.)

[RememberJohn]

10. Well, it is very vague....

... and let me first say that being agnostic, it really is like debating just a literary work and not an infallable record of truth. My opinion.

Begotten: To father; sire. To cause to exist or occur; produce:

So, we know that the word "begotten" means to father; sire. To cause to exist or occur; produce. In the scripture "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..." take notice that "only begotten" actually means, based on the definition of begotten, the only son god the father produced. There is another scripture (the location escapes my memory)that states God created everything through Jesus - meaning, after he "begat" Jesus, Jesus took over from there in creation. Once again, my interpretation. But I'm just settng you up for the fact that Jesus was God's only begotten son - his only sired, produced, fathered son.

The name "Michael" means "Who is Like God." Michael, mentioned only 5 times in the Bible, is described as "the chief prince" (a prince being the son of a King - and the chief one at that!), "the great prince who has charge of your people," and as "the archangel."

Arch: Meaning Chief; principal: The Chief or principal Angel. Essentially, the head Angel.

So we know Jesus was the only begotten son of God and that Michael, which means "who is like God" is the "chief prince" and the head Angel.

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the command of Jesus for the ressurrection to begin is described as "the archangel's call."

Rev. 12:7-12 says Michael and his Angels would wage war against Satan.

Rev 19-11-16 says Jesus will would wage war against the Armies of the world

(incidently, in in the book of John, Jesus describe Satan as the ruler of this world - leading one to believe that Jesus was battle Satan. But Michael will to? Or is this the same reference?)

Finally, in Daniel, Michael "stands up" (to rule?) to act with authority during the "end times." These are the same end times Jesus spoke of.

So there you have it. Take it for what it is. If one it to believe the Bible, it does seem logical.

The theory was first floated in the 15th century and the proponants were accused of heresy.

Various other religious groups (including early incarnations of the Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah's Witnesses) have also taught it

Just a nugget I recall from a comparitive religion class.

[Old and In the Way]

5. If Jesus sits at the right side of God,

who sits at the left (Latin: sinister) side?

Could God know good without knowing evil?

[starroute]

7. What is the relationship between the Morning Star and the Evening Star?

Supposedly one of those ancient zen koan-like paradoxes, designed to raise the mind to a higher perception of reality.

I wonder if it applies here.

[HawkerHurricane]

22. Many ancient societies

Made no connection between Venus in the evening and in the morning.
To the ancient Romans, Venus was the evening star (goddess of romance), while the morning star was Lucifer (Lightbringer, who brought fire to humans; think of the Greek legend of Promotheseus). There was similar confusion about Mercury; if seen in the morning it was Mercury, the messenger; seen in the evening it became Vulcan, god of the forge and husband to Venus.

When Christianity came to Rome, they subverted many of the old Roman beliefs into the new religion. Since Lucifer was god of reason, he was one of the first discredited, by giving his name to Satan. The image of the devil (horns, goat hooves, etc.) is from the Roman myth of the Satyr; a oversexed little follower of Baccus, god of wine and revelry.

[Keithpotkin]

8. yes. yes he is.

jesus was a commie...and commies are godless...and those who are godless are puppets of satan...and since jesus was such a BIG commie...he just be a really big Puppet...if not satan himself.

now THAT is logic!

[Catch22Dem]

11. No

Neither ever existed. It's all bullshit. They are the same the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and the great pumpkin. (Santa is excluded because Santa is real.)

[RememberJohn]

13. But let's just explore the question as though the Bible were merely...

...a book of literature. I, too, believe it is all bullshit, but no harm in discussing what was written.

Pretend it's Shakespear or something.

[kixot]

16. There's no Great Pumpkin??!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

You've dashed the last of my childhood fantasies!!!

[leftofthedial]

14. gratuitous Tom Waits quote

"Ain't no such thing as the devil. It's just god when he's drunk."

[Kat45]

15. There's nothing fun about blasphemy.

I'd be offended by your post if your tongue wasn't firmly planted in cheek--actually, I think I am somewhat offended anyway.

[kixot]

19. Lighten up a little.

Only those of weak, or little faith should find themselves offended. Those of firm faith can dance around these head games all day without piling baggage on.

[Kat45]

27. Then why are folks who are staunch atheists offended when

people bring up their religion? (And I don't just mean fundamentalist-type people trying to convert everyone either.) Someone once told me it wasn't appropriate to say "God bless you" to someone after they sneezed, because it might offend them!

It doesn't bother me that someone is a non-believer, it just bothers me that they feel it's perfectly fine to laugh at/joke about believers and/or their beliefs, when they get politically correct about anyone making disparaging remarks about any other groups.

[arcane1]

28. lol! You clicked on the "fun with blasphemy " thread!

nobody made you :-)



ps- I'm not offended by 'god bless you', so I'm not one of those of which you speak. Sound like strawmen to me...

[arcane1]

20. everyone is a blasphemer

to someone :-)

[HawkerHurricane]

23. One man's blasphemy

is another man's belly laugh.

Is blasphemy a victimless crime?

[WillyT]

25. If I Remember My Joseph Campbell Correctly...

Lucifer was a major figure in Heaven who was cast out because he would not bow down to God's new creation, Man. Lucifer wanted to continue to bow down to God, not Man.

Personally, I think Lucifer made the right career choice, LOL!!!

:evilgrin:

Hey Matt!!! :hi:

[arcane1]

26. bowing down to man is no fun

not that I've tried or anything :-)


:hi:

see ya saturday!