Are we kid-friendly?

[populistmom]

Seriously, the shopping cart thing really got my attention, but I think it's more than just that. In order for us to appeal to a wide base, we need not marginalize those with families.
If many people here were to see me and make a snap judgement, they wouldn't dream that I have been a registered Democrat since 18, well educated, and passionately believe in liberal politics. However, I'm also 31, married since I was 19, regularly attend church, have 4 children, am a member of the PTA, and very feminine in how I dress, look, etc.
My oldest is an 11 year old and my younger three are boys ages 7, 5 and 2. It frequently seems like going places in public I can't win. It's either dirty looks from people when I have to be very strict with them (strict, but I'm not that "smack my kids at Walmart" type)or dirty looks if they step out of line and "annoy" someone with a whine or wimper. Just what do people think raising children is? It's constant guidance and teaching of people with less experience and more energy than yourself. My children have all been VERY hard when they are little, but once they hit school age (at least with my older two), they are great kids out in the world- smart, polite, lots of friends. BUT, it takes years though and lots of work. Will you see my 2 year old whine in the store?- Yes! He's 2, but give me a break okay? And give the thousands of other women out there a break! Especially those of us who have a bunch of kids not because were subjugated freeper wives, but because it was our choice and we're trying like heck to raise smart, informed people who will contribute something to this country.
Sorry if this comes off as defensive, but I am. Perhaps I need to be.

edited title slightly

[Lurking Dem]

1. I love them with ketchup.

I'm KIDDING! :silly:

[BigMcLargehuge]

2. Here here populist mom!!!

Very well put.

http://www.spymac.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=46251&papass=&sort=1&thecat=513

[5thGenDemocrat]

3. Are we libs kid-friendly?

Well, we're trying to keep our kids away from killing Iraqi kids. That's far more than the neo-cons can say.
John
One of five sibs. My mom was a way-lefty Democrat and dad was a socially liberal Repub (yes, they used to exist). Most folks who know us would say we turned out okay. Not great, but okay.
You're doing fine. Illegitimi non carborundum.

[Alenne]

4. I don't take advice from people without kids.

If they want to raise kids they should have their own. You shouldn't get upset about that stuff.

[RandomKoolzip]

5. What exactly is your point?

Are you complaining about not being thought of as progressive just because you have kids? I'm not sure I follow this argument.

Also, stay away from using phrases like "We Liberals" or "We Dems." Freepers use these phrases in their stealth posts and it raises flags among freeper spotters.

I know many progressives who have children, go to church, etc. It's a big tent.

[populistmom]

27. I hated to phrase it like that

But I wasn't sure how else to put it. I was in a rant mode I think. I changed it so I wouldn't be mistaken for what I'm not.

[Bozola]

6. I don't like goats.

Goats are the plague on this planet, surpassed only by humans.

[Boudicea]

7. Pan curses your name!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

16. Fine, end the plague of humanity

start with yourself

[Bozola]

28. it's more effective...

for me to kill as others before I get taken out, if I were to follow your belief that the method to ceasing the plague is by the elimination of individuals.

Typical ignorant goatheaded mentality.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

33. what incredible hatred

You don't just hate one ethnic group, or one gender, or one orientation, you hate everybody. According to you, everyone, all of us people, are a plague on the earth. We have no value in and of ourselves?

This is worse than the most fundamentalist bigoted religious person could ever be.

[MiltonLeBerle]

42. It's very possible to hate people and still be a liberal/leftist

Just because I loathe humanity, it doesn't mean that I don't recognize and respect each person's right to their existence in their chosen lifestyle, and the need for a democratic society.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

51. Is it possible to hate gays and still be a liberal/leftist?

If I said, "just because I hate homosexuals, it doesn't mean that I don't recognize and respect their right to existence in their chosen lifestyle, and the need for a democratis society"?

What about me declaring my hatred for homosexuals in public, as long as I mention I believe their rights should be respected?

Now let's try it with women. Hate is hate.

On edit: Sorry, I don't mean to be an ass, but this "humanity is a plague" attitude, which I've heard a lot, especially in the environmental movement, really offends and disgusts me. I'm sure you meant it as a joke, but it rubs me the wrong way, that's all.

[MiltonLeBerle]

57. As long as you hate them for being a person, and not a GAY person.

there lies the difference.

I despise all groups equally. That is my right. You can't force someone to like this group or that, and as long as I also recognize and respect their rights to their existence, what difference does it make whether or not I like them?

I know you don't mean to be an ass...but there it is.

on edit: Actually YES, it is possible to hate gays for being gay and still be a liberal/leftist...as long as you recognize their legitimat right to their existence on an equal level to everyone else- it doesn't require that you like them

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

59. how can that be?

It's okay to hate people for being human, but it's not okay to hate people for being gay? How is that okay? What's the difference?

Of course you have the right to hate, but bigots have a right to hate some particular race don't they? That's doesn't make it liberal imo.

[MiltonLeBerle]

61. Is it possible to be intolerant of intolerant people?

without being a hypocrite?

btw- i edited my last reply-
Yes, it is possible to hate any particular group and still be a liberal/leftist.
one is a personal belief, one is a social contract. you don't have to like people to recognize and respect their right to an equal existence. that's about as simple as I know how to put it.

There are a lot of people who call themselves liberals but talk about how they "hate" the freeper-types...Is that a 'liberal' attitude in your opinion?

[Bozola]

166. Are you stupid, or what?

What the f*ck is a plague?

What the f*ck is the population of humans on this f*cking planet?

How fast is this population growing?

What f*cking efforts has this species taken to stabilize their population so that it doesn't cause (it already has, btw) cause a huge environmental calamity and massive extinctions?

What the f*ck do you think is going to happen to all those game reserves, wilderness areas, continental shelves when the f*cking population hits 10 billion and 5 billion of them are starving?

[Fixated]

8. .....

I'm a kid for another couple weeks, if that matters.

[MissMillie]

9. Personally,

I think people who jump to rushed judgements miss out on a lot.

Instead of thinking about what might be going on w/ a particular child or parent on any given day, it's just soooo easy to dismiss it all with the judgment that the parent is incompetent or lenient.

My sister took my son shopping one Christmas (he didn't think he could shop for me if I took him). She was standing in a long line at the check out next to a child who was pitching a crying fit.

Instead of the black/white judgment that some would make, she took a different tact, and began to sing "You'd better watch out, you better not cry, you'd better not pout I'm telling you why: Santa Claus is coming to town".

The kid clammed up--immediately.

Violence as a way make people behave the way YOU want them to is not something I want my child to learn.

[demnan]

10. Most Democrats I know have kids

and drive to PTA. Although I'm single I never try to judge someone who does have kids. How lucky you are! Kids are wonderful and I would have loved to have had them but I never met the suitable male counterpart.

[goobergunch]

11. I think liberals are kid-friendly...

and I'm 16.

[patdem]

12. I say...do not break the spirit of the child...what do you replace

that with? If I am shopping and a nasty kid gets my goat I may make a face at the kid...but I in no way want that kid to be broken...in fact I think my face at him makes him worse(better)! I hope so anyway!

Wherever I go kids and animals are attracted to me like it or not! I love the spirit of kids...I say to them, like to my animals...you are the greatest in the universe...the most beautiful...the smartest...the most loved...and if you keep telling them that...who will know if it is true or not.....but NEVER EVER EVER tell them they are NOT WORTHY... Of course at the same time tell them that because they are so endowed they have a special commitment to help humanity with their gifts?

[MountainLaurel]

13. Depends, but often not

Of course, generalizations are difficult, but I think for a lot of younger Dems, the answer is no. I think to some extent this is a function of that intellectual elitism and condescension aspect of the party. Had a child when you were 17 or got married just after college? Obviously, then you're a mindless freeper who has bought into traditional roles. Work at Wal-Mart? Then you've got to be oppressed, or just stupid. Believe in a higher power and you're a sheeple who believes in fairy tales and can't think for yourself, rather than simply holding on to something where you find comfort.

Not to mention that liberals are probably less likely to have children, particularly when they're younger, and probably know little about child development. (For instance, I've always heard that toddlerhood is a hell of a lot, hormonally, physically, and emotionally, like puberty.) Combine all these you get a lot of people who see children as less than human, rather than someone who is new to this world and learning about how to be in it.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

14. Sure

I'm 16. :)

[rusk2003]

15. Of Cource We are Child Friendly

God Bless You And Ofcource the Democrats and Liberls are child friendly. It was us who hearts melted when we saw the innocent children affectedf in this war in Iraq we thought of them way before the war started. Anyway we support the children rights movement and we also stand for the ethical treatment of children. The people giving you dirty looks are the right wing religoues republicans who think children should be beat when they misbehave. You can't instantly scilence your children in the store i mean it dose take a minute or two to calm them down or drag them out of the store. Anyhow Thy passed the Family MEdical Leave Act along with other benifts for familes

If we are't child friendly then GOD Help The Children since no one else will.

:bounce:

PS. give children gum to chew on that will keep them from crying.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

19. whoa

there were ah.. um... a few errors in that... oh never mind. why bother.

[Skittles]

17. six million children are on ritalin

you should talk to those parents

[MiltonLeBerle]

35. that's a good start.

But apparently not enough. Is there anyway that they could just infuse the lunchroom milk with it?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

40. 6 million is waaaaaaaaaay too many...

I had my son in 3rd grade at a school with an excellent reputation. 1/3 of his classmates were on Ritalin; and the teacher was pressuring me to get my son drugged as well. This is what happens when teachers can't deal with kids who are hyper because they're bored to tears.

If they'd quit testing kids so much that you'd think they were lab rats and teach them how to be fascinated with learning, I'll bet you'd find a lot of calmer, more attentive kids.

I'm not saying Ritalin should never be used. I'm sure it's a miracle for many people; but from what I've seen, it's overprescribed.

[MiltonLeBerle]

73. Based on what I've seen, what they need to do-

is to develop something stronger than Ritalin.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

89. A lot of the feistiness people attribute to ADD

is actually an allergic reaction to things like red dye #40, caffeine, and any number of food additives currently in use.

I noticed this in my older son in particular. The juice he regularly drank contained the red dye...eliminating it from his diet produced a radical change in his behavior and mood.

I do think adults who get hyper-freaked by children might want to consider medication or therapy for themselves. Kids are always going to be here...just like the rowdy drunk down the street, the waitress that can't seem to shut up when you're trying to eat in peace, and the thunder and lightning that ruin our summer concert in the park.

Children who are not tolerated will grow up to be intolerant themselves.

[MiltonLeBerle]

93. Children who are not taught to be respectful of others-

won't be respectful of others.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

100. Absolutely...That's why

we need to be respectful of them from the time they're babies.

And they can be taught in the company of strangers. That's the only place they'll really learn.

[MiltonLeBerle]

108. The only place children can learn is in the presence of strangers?

HUH?

I guess we need to rethink this whole "school" thing then...maybe instead of locking the doors, they should be letting more strangers wander the halls...?

It should be the parents reponsibility to teach their children, not strangers.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

132. No, everyone teaches...

Parents merely guide.

When my son sees you behaving in a polite fashion in a restaurant, you're teaching him. I can guide him to the understanding that this is appropriate behavior; but he's still learned from you.

By the same token, if someone is acting drunk and disorderly, I guide him (hopefully!) to the understanding that such behavior is frowned upon.

Children need to see the world they're going to be expected to deal with at an early age.

[Zomby Woof]

18. it isn't that simple

I loathe children on a personal level, but on the macro level, or on the sociopolitical landscape, I support things which promote healthier and better-educated children, such as better public schools and immunization programs. I can see the forest for the trees, and have no problem with what is only at best a surface contradiction in regards to my attitudes towards children.

I laugh when some self-styled 'liberals' take it upon themselves to define just what a proper liberal is, and what should be the confines of their beliefs and attitudes.

I will say that single childless people are easily the most discriminated against in the tax code and in the workplace. I am sick of these tax credit giveaways which are unearned and only add to the great financial woes of the general population. I am all for the EITC, which aids poor people and their children, but when middle-class bourgeois minivan and SUV-driving suburbanites with more than enough money to raise their demon spawn start getting $1,000 checks from the Treasury at the expense of school lunch programs and other beneficient forms of social spending, I get my ire up. Enough entitlements and giveaways already! The Child Tax Credit goes too far for those already able to afford to reproduce! The cutoff rate based on AGI is waaaay too high.

Yes, soccer moms, I mean you. Hang up and drive! And please, don't prattle on and on about how precious little Whitnee or Kody is, and how many goals they scored today.

I don't like kids, and as a champion of the underdog, and the underclass, I am comfortable with this rare juxtaposition of views. How I feel on a personal, one-on-one level doesn't mean I am not in favor of a healthier society for all. But part of that healthier society means providing equity for the childless as well as those with children. So yeah, I favor the betterment of children as part of that, as long as I don't have to deal with them personally.

Finally, please spare me the hoary cliché about "children are our future". There is nothing mystical about the aging process, life has ever been such for primates these past several thousand millenia. The future is NOW. Let's help ADULTS make this a better society, rather than interminably pinning our hopes and dreams on Ashlee and her "future".

I am a liberal, and I don't like children. Yes, Virginia, it is possible.

[Fixated]

21. ...

I'm only 17, but whenever I see anyone under 8, I want to punt them into a lake. I hate stupid people, even when they can't help it (yes, I realize how ridiculous that is).

[SweetZombieJesus]

22. Bra-fucking-vo

Amen, etc. Brilliantly said.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Seneca]

151. He and Zombywoof are 2 different people

:eyes:

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alenne]

152. Coffee Coyote is Zombywoof

[Rainbowreflect]

26. Amen,

I believe we need to make sure every child has healthy food, a safe home, health care & a good education. But why should people who make the choice to have a bunch of kids get these refunds no matter how much they make, unless it is under $26,000?????
Those of us without children for whatever reason, already support everyone elses kids through our taxes. My feeling is one deduction for each person in the household, period. No one should be rewarded or punished in the taxes they pay, buy the type of family they have.
Now before you assume I don't like kids, I do, I have spent most of my adult life working to help kids one way or another.

[smirkymonkey]

29. I just went to an astrologer who told me that my...

special purpose in life was to work with children. I then told her that I could think of nothing more horrifying as an occupation. The truth is, I can like certian children individually, but I don't like them in the collective.

Even w/ my own nieces and nephews - I can only handle them in small doses. I really have no patience w/ children, and very little interest. I do admire people that really take the time and energy to be committed caring parents, and I am frequently impressed by the behavior of their offspring, but there are too many people out there reproducing cluelessly (like Barbara Bush) and that are not fit to be parents.

Also, I think that overpopulation is a huge problem and having more children than you can emotionally or physically support is quite selfish, IMHO.

[geebensis]

32. For what it's worth

In case you wonder why your attidue evokes such a visceral reaction, try this:

Instead of writing, as you did above:

"I loathe children on a personal level, but on the macro level, or on the sociopolitical landscape, I support things which promote healthier and better-educated children"

Try typing it again and replacing "children" with "blacks", "Jews", or "women". Makes for an astonishingly ugly statement, doesn't it? It is every bit as ugly with the word "children" in it.

But don't worry. You, the racists, the anti-semites, and the misogynists all have the same right to spew that kind of bile.

And I guess if all of your other opinions are properly progressive I should just overlook the occasional turd you leave in the punchbowl.

mm

[MiltonLeBerle]

37. yes.

"And I guess if all of your other opinions are properly progressive I should just overlook the occasional turd you leave in the punchbowl..."

Everyone has their own opinions, their own likes and dislikes. If your going to demand lockstep aggreement with what you deem to be the proper liberal perspective and attitude, you'll be marching alone.

[SweetZombieJesus]

38. I was just going to call him an idiot

I mean "THE CHILDREN ARE OUR FUTURE!"

There, am I sufficiently liberal/progressive for his majesty now?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MiltonLeBerle]

54. Now try rplacing the word "asshole"

with "black", "jew" or "bitch"...

I for one am not going to sit here and listen to you spew your racist, anti-semitic, mysoginist crap!

[Rabrrrrrr]

72. A brilliant comeback!!

Now replace "you" with "blacks" or "women" or "jews" . . .

[MiltonLeBerle]

75. since the message it was in response to is gone-

it doesn't really have the same meaning, now does it...?

p.s.- you should also looka t post #32, by the same poster as the deleted one I was responding to...

[Rabrrrrrr]

79. Saw that post - think it's crap

Didn't know a clever way to say it was logical fallacy yada yada yada, so was happy to read further down and find your wonderful retort!

[MiltonLeBerle]

84. what I found entertainingly ironic-

the person who was complaining about the "bile" other people post-
is the one who gets their post edited out....

[geebensis]

114. Do you think I got any of your posts "edited out"?

I call 'em like I see 'em.

mm

[Rabrrrrrr]

131. Is that a logical coherent statement?

Not sure what you mean. Are you implying that MiltonLeBerle alerted someone to remove your post?

:wow: that's a ballsy accusation

[geebensis]

143. Yes, it was incoherent

I tried to edit for clarity, but it's still incoherent.

For the record, a couple of my posts were pulled. So be it. Rest assurred that under no circumstances would I try to get anyone's posts pulled. Ever.

mm

[Rabrrrrrr]

162. people can be a little quick on the alert button sometimes

And sometimes the mods just pop in and remove a post before being alerted, if they notice it. But I don't begrudge them - tough job, someone's got to do it, but I didn't see a need for your posts to be pulled either. I disagree utterly with the posts, yes, but still, saw nothing offensive in them. But, we support our mods for the work they do, and I'm not gonna sit around second-guessing them.

Sorry for nailing you on the incoherency thing - should have been a bit more sensitive. I was just getting annoyed at your posts so took a somewhat recursive form of personal attack there.

I support your right to speak, but still disagree with you, though. :evilgrin:

[Zomby Woof]

45. I never wonder

I don't care if I elicit any kind of reaction. My ego isn't that large.

I won't even address the absurd fallacy of equating my dislike of children with racism. :eyes:

[geniph]

109. There is a difference

you said: "Try typing it again and replacing "children" with "blacks", "Jews", or "women". Makes for an astonishingly ugly statement, doesn't it? It is every bit as ugly with the word "children" in it."

There's a huge difference, and I'm surprised you don't see it. Hating someone for something they are and will always be is simply irrational. Children outgrow it.

[geebensis]

115. And it's somehow "rational" to hate children?

[Zomby Woof]

118. Geniph is as rational as anyone I have ever met

Accuse her of being irrational at your peril. :-)

[geebensis]

122. Maybe you can explain what she meant

When I read that post I logically infer, after the line "children will outgrow it", that it's rational to hate them while they're children. That inference directly follows and doesn't seem all that ambiguous.

Geniph may be exceptionally rational, but that post wasn't.

mm

[Zomby Woof]

124. she only made one little error

SOME children outgrow it. Others continue to deserve our contempt until they grow old and die.

[Rabrrrrrr]

126. and many of those who don't grow out of it

end up at Free Republic and vote republican even after their disability runs out or they are laid off.

[geebensis]

142. Frankly

The kind of nasty, intolerant rhetoric directed at children and parents that I've seen here is far closer crap I've seen on Free Republic than any child's tantrum.

Just change the target from children to the neo-con boogeyman du jour and it all reads the same.

Too bad you can't see that.

mm

[Rabrrrrrr]

147. So we can't complain about children,

because the word "child" can be replaced by "black" or "jew" or "woman"?

Can I complain about a check out clerk? A mechanic? Or is it only minorities, which apparently includes children, that we're not allowed to disparage?

So if a child runs a cart into me at the store and then screams at me when i make an angry face and the parents get pissed off at me and then later when we're out eating and I have to stay on high alert becuase some child is running out without supervision and bumping my chair, I can't retell the story except to say "a human being hit me with cart and screamed and the humans he/she was with got mad at me and then I was on high alert at the restaurant because a human being was kicking my chair and running around without the supervision that the human's caretakers should have offered"?

That's crap, and I don't subscribe your equating of wanting peace and quiet with racism and sexism. You're seriously mising something if you can't see the difference from wanting peace and quiet in those places that should be peaceful and quiet, and rampant racism, homophobia, sexism, etc.

The whole "replace 'child' with 'black'" theory holds no water and is a morally bankrupt bit of rhetoric: it is the logical equivalent of failing to empty your colostomy bag.

[SiouxJ]

47. Well said

That child tax credit thing really irks me. If anything, people with children ought to be taxed higher. Adding more people to the planet adds more pollution and waste that must be dealt with. At least in the US it does. I'm not talking about people who are barely getting by, but the behemoth SUV drivers should not be getting tax cuts because they have kids. Hell, I can't even write off all of my medical expenses and they get a "discount" because they figured out how to reproduce! It's such amazing discrimination.

[geniph]

107. As usual, Laurin

you said it for me, and better than I'd have done.

[Zomby Woof]

113. ah thanks!

Some people just don't understand that cats are the only 'children' you need. :-)

[SaintLouisBlues]

20. Marginalize those with families?

I think it is the other way around.

Families and children are all I ever hear about. As George Carlin said, we as a nation have developed an unhealthy "child fetish".

75 percent of households have no children, but the way the popular media lusts after the family demographic, you'd think that it was 100 percent of the households that have kids at home.

And I love children, as long as they're not mine.

[Zomby Woof]

25. welcome to DU SaintLouisBlues!

Thanks for the Carlin recap. Truly, it is disproportionate how the nuclear family has been festishized and glorifed beyond proportion.

Family is great, and I'll spare us the rhetoric about it being the foundation of civilization and whatnot - because family can fuck people up too - being genteically related to people or raised by them doesn't get anyone off the hook. But whatever family is, it need not be defined by the presence of children. That's how Republicans and the 'family values' (bogus term of the century) crowd play us against each other.

[SaintLouisBlues]

30. Thanks for the welcome

"I say alrighty and you say already"-That's supposed to be from your namesake song if I remember it correctly.

[Red_Viking]

23. I'm a mom

I'm trying to raise a socially-conscious person. My daughter is 12, and has attended peace marches and political rallies with me. She wears a "treehugger" pin on her book bag. She engages classmates (and probably teachers) in political debates, demanding they support their points of view. I'd love to take credit for all this, but honestly I believe she was born this way. I helped her along, to be sure. She's really a great kid, and I've raised her almost exclusively alone to this point.

So, I applaud you! Four children with manners in public is an amazing accomplishment. My gripes with other parents come when children are allowed to feel entitled, or parents subjugate themselves to the will of the children. It's easy to forget who's the child and who's the adult, but the parent must maintain control. I'm not saying to rule with an iron fist! But for chrissakes, I'm weary of the hothouse flowers people churn out today, feeling like the world owes them something, and they'll be carried about on velvet pillows for the rest of their lives.

My SO has a 7-year-old daughter. At a recent birthday party, the other girls were handing out calling cards. I almost fainted. What the hell does a second grader need a calling card for? I'm talking about cards a la the Victorian era, with your name on them. Very snooty. The parents in my neighborhood have competitions to outdo the last birthday event, they bring armsful of flowers to choir performances, rent limos in middle school...and I have an "American for Peace" sign in my yard. They must love me!

:dem:
RV

[MiddleRiverRefugee]

24. I am unable to hate kids....

for two very important reasons:

(1) I have not been an adult that long in the scheme of things.

(2) My Daughter is two years old. Besides which, she's a girl. If I hate her, that makes me a misogynist.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

31. What you're saying needs to be said...

...and will continue to need saying for a long time, I suspect. As parents, it's easier for us to remember what is was like being childless than it is for people without children to understand what it is to be a parent.

Do you remember when you had most of the answers to parenting's most perplexing problems? ...when you couldn't understand why others didn't find your answers obvious? Remember when you had no clue how cranky a kid can get simply by being bored, let alone tired or hungry?
How about when you thought it'd be so sweet to come home to your kids after a tough day at the office? Ok, it's still sweet sometimes, but other times you're too damned tired to notice, right?

It's easy for parents to sympathize with each other because we've been there.

I'll never forget a trip to the grocery store with my older boy when he was about 3, and he threw an awful tantrum...hitting at me and screaming in a deafening high-pitched shriek. I held his arms firmly to avoid getting hit, and tried to quiet him in a calm voice, and I was just about at my limit.

At that moment, an older woman came down the aisle, and I started to shrink in embarrassment. I could almost hear her criticizing me in her mind. But she stopped next to me and smiled, saying "My little boy used to be just like that. I used to tell him he was going to have to wait until we got to the 'screaming aisle'".

I thanked her for reminding me about the "screaming aisle", and told my little boy he could scream as much as he wanted when we got there.
He was so dumbfounded by the idea that he forgot about his tantrum. I pass that kind woman's compassion along anytime I find the chance.

[ScreamingMeemie]

144. Sorry Goddess, I put a post in the wrong place...

sheesh, how embarassing.

[MiltonLeBerle]

34. No.

There are a lot of people who need to put a leash on their little monsters, or teach them to have respect for other people and society.
"but they're just kids" doesn't cut it. Take some responsibility for the consequences of your search for an orgasm and teach it a little discipline.

[populistmom]

39. What?

You wrote, "Take some responsibility for the consequences of your search for an orgasm and teach it a little discipline"

My whole life is responsibility thank you very much. It's that attitude I'm talking about. I don't question anyone's choice to be childless. Respect though, runs both ways.

[MiltonLeBerle]

43. and kids should be taught that respect-

Before they are taken out in public.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

You must be kidding!

How can you teach a 2 year old how to relate to other people if others don't relate to the child?

Children learn social skills by direct observation of their parents and peers. They can be taught as they are acclimating to new situations. For example, in a better restaurant, a child might need to be accompanied outside a few times to get a handle on the idea of speaking in a lower voice before returning. In McDonalds, on the other hand, a child will learn virtually no valuable social skills, as the general atmosphere is mayhem.

Like learning a foreign language, you can't really learn etiquette until you practice it.

[MiltonLeBerle]

91. No, I'm not-

why should I have to expect "total mayhem" if I walk into a McDonald's?
The reason for that mayhem are the irresponsible parents. and not all the parents are bad ones- I have seen a number of people who have been able to keep their kids quiet and respectful, even in a McDonald's, and even when there were other kids there whos parents let them run around like savages.
Not all kids are rambunctious hellions in public- some of them have GOOD parents.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

103. I'm glad you recognize that...

It was starting to sound like "There are bad people who have children and good people who don't."

But seriously, as long as kids are expected to behave in McDonalds, why not in a decent restaurant with decent food? I manage with mine...

[MiltonLeBerle]

110. you need to reverse that last statement-

As long as kids are expected to behave in a decent restaurant, why not in McDonalds?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

134. There too....They simpy need to learn to behave

As adults should.

[geebensis]

41. Rent "Castaway"

...then find that island and move there.

Otherwise, you are liable to run into children, and they might behave in a way that displeases you. I know it's not fair, and I know everyone should act the way YOU think they should, but darn it, they're just not listening. No matter how hard you stomp your feet.

Move now. Before school lets out and your risk of exposure to a child increases.

mm

ps: Holy smokes. Did you actually use the words "respect for other people and society" and call children "little monsters" in the same sentence? That's gotta qualify for some kind of award...

[SweetZombieJesus]

44. I'm sorry, who elected you President of the Board?

Guess what? Milton can not like children, and no amount of knee jerk bullshit you post can change that. Don't like it? Move to the island in Castaway, blah blah blah, insert further witless thought police crap here.

Nothing makes me laugh more than some putz with 47 posts deciding he's suddenly the "grown up" in the room.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GumboYaYa]

63. Welcome to DU geebensis.

It looks like you will fit in nicely here.

[MiltonLeBerle]

48. and God Forbid that any incompetent parent should have to-

take responsibility for their progeny or be "the bad guy" and exert a little discipline.
There are waaaaay too many people that have kids who absolutely have no business "play-acting" the part of a real parent..

[buddhamama]

74. "... respect for other people and society."

you fail to mention having respect for children.

sure they're 'just kids' and need to be guided, but, they're also 'little people' who go through the same sh*t that 'big people' do and deserve the same respect.

do you have bad days? they do.

have others had to suffer from your bad days?

do you ever raise your voice or get angry? they do.

have others had to suffer through your anger?

do you make mistakes? they do.

if you have answered yes to any of the above, should i assume that your parents failed to teach you respect.

the setting of their lives may be different than yours, but they are not 'that' different.

[MiltonLeBerle]

81. but at least when I'm having a bad day-

I don't go around acting all childish about it.

besides, I don't blame the kids as much as the parents that foist their uncontrolled offspring on the public in places like grocery stores, restaurants, etc. The parents are the ones that decided to become parents, and that entails a certain amount of reponsibilities that some of them seem to want the rest of us to excuse them from for one lame reason or another.

your kid- your choice- YOUR fucking responsibility.

[buddhamama]

85. what's 'childish' behavior?

i asked you a few questions that you did not answer.
have you ever whined, screamed, became angry-act out of anger,etc,etc.

i find it fucking unbelievable that, there are times in an adults life when we 'lose control' but when a child does it they're monsters.

[MiltonLeBerle]

111. "have you ever whined, screamed, became angry-act out of anger,etc,etc"

Not without good reason, and not in public to the extent that it disturbs other people.
And I didn't do it when I was a child, either- my parents made sure of that.

and when an adult "loses control", they can be arrested. Maybe they should start arresting the parents of children who "lose control" in public- that would probably help the situation immensly.

[buddhamama]

120. "Not without good reason..."

according to whom, you? what if i do not agree with your good reason, what if it bothers me?

i'm sure kids feel they have a good reason too.
you may not think so but...

i don't know anyone who displays any of the above behavior and doesn't also feel justified in doing so.

adults go to jail for losing control? so every time i yell or lose my patience, get angry,whine, etc, i risk going to jail? what fuckin' world are you living in?

[MiltonLeBerle]

136. "what fuckin' world are you living in..."

The United States, unfortunately.

and by "good reason" I'm referring to something like a car accident where an uninsured mexican kid rammed me from behind while sitting at a red light forcing me into the car in front of me, and totalling my car...I consider that to be "good reason".

And I learned a long time ago to control anger in public. I'm a person who's 6'2", formerly 6'4", who weighs 225lbs.(and as high as 265). I also have a 'booming' kind of voice- if i raise my voice at all, no matter how slightly, I'm accused of "yelling"... on three seperate occasions, I have been handcuffed and put into the back of a squad car by police, only to have them apologize and let me out after talking to involved parties during disturbances that I've tried to help quell. But when the cops show up, I'm the biggest guy there, so I get the cuffs and the back seat while they sort things out.

what fuckin' world do you live in?

[Cheswick2.0]

139. "I don't go around acting all childish about it."

really?

[MiltonLeBerle]

155. Really.

[Cheswick2.0]

138. and there are some adults who need not only a leash, but a muzzle

so there

[MiltonLeBerle]

157. Now there's someone with an open mind.

:eyes: :eyes:

[catpower2000]

36. Hmm...

Well, I'll tell you. I loathe children, and I cannot understand why anyone would ever want to have one. But, to each their own.

What I cannot understand in YOUR post is how you ever got the impression that society is not "kid-friendly". That's all you ever HEAR about, is how kids are the most important thing on the face of the earth.

I was hearing a news report about the bus bombing in the Middle East the other day, and the woman said something like, "There were X number of people who died, AND IT APPEARS THAT SOME OF THEM MAY HAVE BEEN CHILDREN." Now, to me, it is NO MORE OR LESS tragic when a child dies in a terrible accident like this than an adult. But the media will insist on glossing over all the adult deaths and repeating the "a child may have died" mantra until it's been ground into dust.

Here is my final point: I will not discriminate against you for having children UNLESS I am forced to deal with your children. That means if you bring them into a restaurant where I am trying to have a nice meal (and that doesn't include McDonald's or Chucky Cheese, I know better than that, I'm talking about a NICE restaurant), and your child disturbs my meal with air-raid siren wailing or food-throwing, I'm going to discriminate. If you bring your child to a movie and the child talks, cries, screams, or climbs under the seats the entire time and you do not remove him, I'm going to discriminate. Etc.

I personally do not understand why anyone would have 4 children in an already-overpopulated world, and don't even get me started on the tax credits and discrimination against the child-free in the workplace, but I can think my own thoughts about those things without actively discriminating against you. Just keep your offspring away from me, that's all I ask.

Cat

[Zomby Woof]

49. I know you can't read this

But what the hell - check my rant above for similar points - the tax credits and other goodies have to stop. Period.

Edit: addressed wrong thread.

[populistmom]

50. I do agree with this.

"That means if you bring them into a restaurant where I am trying to have a nice meal (and that doesn't include McDonald's or Chucky Cheese, I know better than that, I'm talking about a NICE restaurant), and your child disturbs my meal with air-raid siren wailing or food-throwing, I'm going to discriminate."

I stick to bringing my kids to family type places only and I'd have to say that on the occasions hubby and I actually make it out of the house by ourselves, there is nothing more annoying that being in an expensive type NON-family restaurant with someone else's kid at the other other table being loud. (It kind of wrecks the night off.) People like that give those of us who are responsible a bad name.

[pizzathehut]

46. I understand, I'm a parent of an autistic 4 year old

I get loads of "looks" when we go out from people who think I can keep him quiet (I cant and I refuse to just keep him at home).

Yes, people on the left can be very anti child. But I think most childless people are like that.

Sometimes its worse on the left because you have the radicals who think everyone who has kids here in the US causes global warming and other enviro problems. And I've talked to gays who say the people most opposed to them having kids are other gays. Why? because having children changes your outlook on life. In some ways you become more "conservative". You want your kids to attend decent schools so you cant live in most urban areas so you get accused of "white flight". You dont want your kids exposed to porn and other behaviors that others defend as "free speech". But most of all you dont have time for volunteering outside your kids schools. And definitely no time to attend protests or demonstrations.

You say you go to Wal mart. Many groups boycott them. But all parents know they have the lowest prices and are child friendly with carts and family rest rooms.

So I understand.

[ibegurpard]

53. Sometimes I think we're TOO kid friendly

And that's probably why you get a lot of the flak that you do. What I mean is that there are a lot of people out there who are perturbed by inconsiderate people who take small children to movies, restaurants, and other places where they really don't belong. Those experiences sour people and they project that frustration onto undeserving people like yourself. There are just some places where kids shouldn't be and I think we need to recognize that.

[SiouxJ]

56. Not to mention fucking casinos!!

God! I was in Vegas for a week and I can't tell you how many times I was almost run into by some little kid tearing through the casino. Going into the women's restroom was like trying to maneuver an obstacle course. Little boys running around in there. Even on the casino floor! This was not Circus Circus, this was a very upscale "adult" atmosphere type of casino. I can't tell you how many times I almost tripped over a kid who's parents weren't watching him. I cannot for the life of me figure out why any parent would bring their kids to a casino. I swear, it's like there are no places for adults to go anymore where we can just be around other adults. They even bring kids to bars in the town where I live.

[Zomby Woof]

60. ah! sweet reason and common sense!

:D

[MiltonLeBerle]

64. You will be happy and relieved to learn-

that Las Vegas has kind of given up on the whole "family entertianment" idea...their new tourism motto is : "Las Vegas, what happens here, stays here."

Now if only the parent can take a hint.

[SiouxJ]

66. Good. I say Disneyland is for kids. Vegas is for adults.

I happen to like both, and when I go to Disneyland I think kids should be catered to and adults should come second. In Vegas though, it should be the reverse. Let us have at least one place.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

67. Sounds like there are varying degrees of tolerance...

both on the side of parents and non-parents.

I'm not sure what your definition of "where they don't belong" is, but I hope it's reserved for strip clubs, dirty movies, and such. Children are little people, and will never learn to socialize properly if they aren't allowed the opportunity...with guidance.

As a parent, I've taken my kids to "better restaurants", movie theaters, etc. and they behave as well as if not better than some of the adults there. On the rare occasion that one has started to act up, I've taken him outside the restaurant to let him take time-out to consider his behavior before a tantrum starts.

I realize there are parents who let their kids get away with horrific behavior; but I'd be willing to bet that there are far more well-behaved kids whom you never even notice, simply because they aren't acting up.

And to pass judgment on any one child or parent on the basis of one incident is showing far less tolerance than we show our adult peers. "Oh, he's having a rough day." "Well she's PMSing." "He doesn't always get drunk and act rowdy...but he hasn't had sex in a year." We sluff off those adults who act irresponsibly, but we ostracize children who don't yet know how to be responsible? That doesn't make sense...

[catpower2000]

69. You also should know, there are varying degrees of "good" behavior...

So when you say...

As a parent, I've taken my kids to "better restaurants", movie theaters, etc. and they behave as well as if not better than some of the adults there.

I'm sure in your PERCEPTION, they behaved perfectly well. But the perception of the child-free may not be the same as yours. Let me give you one example.

Children are unbelievably LOUD to me. I mean, not when they're screaming or throwing a tantrum, but just in their normal speaking, they have not yet learned to modulate their voices to fit their surroundings. If your child was sitting there, hands in lap, behaving perfectly to your eye, but was speaking in that clear sharp LOUD child's voice that they use, I would be at the next table gritting my teeth. And that's just one example of how children are intolerable.

Therefore, I believe that there should be adults-only places where children do not belong, and a restaurant where I am paying $20 or more for my entree is one of them.

Children are little people, and will never learn to socialize properly if they aren't allowed the opportunity...with guidance.

I completely disagree with the above statement. My mother would have sooner cut off her arm than take me to a fancy restaurant at age 4 or 6. Most people I know who are my age (30) or older had parents from a certain generation, parents who knew young children simply don't BELONG in certain situations. Those parents from that generation went to family restaurants or stayed home until their kids were around age 12 or so. That was simply the way it was.

My experience with the current generation raising children is that they refuse to give up their pre-children social scene, which is why there are so many more children in completely inappropriate venues than there used to be.

Cat

[GumboYaYa]

76. There are plenty of places that do not permit children

at all or at certain times. Go there if you don't like kids. As long as the owner of a restaurant allows me to bring my kids and it is appropriate for them to be there, I will take my kids anywhere I please. I expect my children to act with respect for others around them and I expect the same from others regarding my kids. If the tone of my child's voice annoys you becuase it is a child's voice and not because of the volume, in my book that's your problem.

[catpower2000]

77. I have, unfortunately, never found a place that does not permit children..

other than strip clubs and bars after a certain time of day, that is.

If there was ONE restaurant in town that did not allow children, I assure you I would go there every single time that I went out to eat. Unfortunately, in our child-obsessed culture, those places must be few and far between, since I've never encountered one.

And I did not say the "tone" of a child's voice, I said the VOLUME. Go back and read my post.

Cat

on edit: and it is that "I will take my children anywhere I damn well please" attitude that makes child-free people hate parents. That was the original point of this thread, wasn't it?

double edit: I am fully aware that it is your right to do whatever you want, I'm just saying that your attitude will not win you converts from the child-free. I'm sure you couldn't care less.

[GumboYaYa]

82. "and it is appropriate for them to be there..."

not "anywhere I damn well please."

Is it the parents or the children you hate, or both? I guaranty you that you will not gain any sympathy from families with that attitude. I'm sure you couldn't care less.

<ON EDIT> It is not clear that you meant volume. You said that to YOU a child's voice is loud. It seems that rather than truly being a higher volume, you have a very low threshold of tolerance for children's voices. I still think that is your problem.

[Rabrrrrrr]

83. A little mace...

and any restaurant can be whiny loud child free. :evilgrin:

please, a note to the humorless amongst you before you jump on me for this rather innocuous and witty post: did I say that children should be maced? No, I didn't.

[masslib]

105. Too bad you're not in Boston, Medieval Manor doesn't

allow kids under 14, the drawback is that you have to eat with your hands.:)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

80. I think you're wrong...

by virtue of the fact that I've had people comment to me about how well-behaved my kids are. I have an excellent ear for volume, being a musician. In fact, I often have difficulty hearing my 5 year old because he works to keep his voice low. He could never learn to modulate his voice without being given the proper surrounding.

My mother would have sooner cut off her arm than take me to a fancy restaurant at age 4 or 6.

This statement thoroughly explains your lack of tolerance for little people. You were not tolerated yourself.

My parents raised me to appreciate good food, good conversation, and good music at an early age. The parents of my generation (45+) realized that to be a parent takes harder work than the path of least resistance offered by those who'd shut their kids away in a closet and raise them with grease burgers and Raffi until they're 14.

[buddhamama]

92. my opinion, kids just bug the hell out of you

and there is aboslutely nothing they could do right in your presence.

that voice modulation applies to adults as well.
i don't go to many movies but let me tell ya' fucking adults can talk and when they want to they do.

like the time my SO and i went to a nice restaurant and were subjected to the medical low-down of the occupants at the neighboring table. i really didn't have to hear about the lady's kidney op during dinner.

Cat, i'm not saying you should like kids and i understand your wanting to be places where kids aren't. heck, i don't like all kids.

but i'm not going to stop taking my son out because some may be bothered by his presenence. he is a good kid. never thrown a fit in public or any other 'typical' kid behavior and i enjoy his company.
i'm not just saying either, i really do.

[catpower2000]

101. "Nothing they could do right..."

Not true. I'll tell you a story. About 3 months ago, I went to a Chinese all-you-can-eat buffet. A family came in with their 10(?) and 12(?) year old children. (It was a $7.95 buffet, not fine dining, so I have no problem encountering children there, BTW.)

Those kids were unbelievable. They were quiet, polite to their parents, they asked permission each time they wanted to go back up to the buffet for more food. The mother said to the daughter, "Well, you still have some ______." The daughter said, "I know, but I did try it, Mom, and I didn't care for it." (She actually used those words.) The mother then acquiesed.

I sat there agape. When we got up to leave, I went over and quietly said, "I want you to know, you have incredibly well-behaved children and I want to commend you on the job you're doing with them." The mother and father both looked very gratified and thanked me for coming over.

BTW, you parents who are reading this and saying, "Yes, that's how my children act in public," THEY DON'T, I can virtually guarentee it. It's been well over 5 years since I've encountered children that well-raised.

Buddhamama, I can actually believe that your son is probably an exceptionally well-behaved child, because you are a wonderful and empathetic person. You, however, are extremely rare.

Cat

[GoddessOfGuinness]

106. How can you enjoy your meal

when you're constantly scrutinizing others children and ranking them on a scale of 1-10?

BTW, you parents who are reading this and saying, "Yes, that's how my children act in public," THEY DON'T, I can virtually guarentee it. It's been well over 5 years since I've encountered children that well-raised.

I'm sorry if it sounds as if I'm flaming; but that's a terribly presumptuous statement, seemingly intended to insult people. It's rather like saying "All blacks/whites/men/women/insert-group-here are ----"

I strongly suspect that there are a great many well-behaved children out there whom you've simply never noticed, because they were well-behaved. I can virtually guarantee it.

[Uzybone]

168. LOL

well said. Its a shame that there are people whose main purpose in life is to judge how other peoples children behave. Going out and eavesdropping and ticking off a scoreboard on other peoples childrens behaviour is very very odd.

[GumboYaYa]

112. LOL,

Damning every other DU parent with feint praise of Buddhamama, why not just come out and say that you think we are a bunch of disrespectful self-absorbed reproducers. That is the implication of your statement. I personally think that this strong dislike of children and parents is your problem and not a problem with the parenting styles of DUers or anyone else for that matter.

Excuse me for loving my children dearly and wanting them to be exposed to multiple cultural experiences and people. I guess I should keep my kids at home, discipline all the individuality out of them and hope the grow up to be good republicans.

[catpower2000]

119. Yes, you'd like to believe that this is my problem alone...

How, then, do you explain all the other DUers on this thread and others who express the same repugnance and annoyance with out-of-control children and their witless parents? Are we ALL neurotic? I can assure you, there are MILLIONS of us. And there are many more who aren't brave enough to post on a thread like this, because they will get the reaction you gave, which implies, "There is something wrong with YOU if you don't like children or my kids in particular."

You know what? I think I'm fine. :)

Cat

[GumboYaYa]

123. It is not the fact that you or thers dislike children.

It is that you "hate" parents. Those are your words and IMO they are irrational. You prase empathy in one post then state you hatred for parents in another.

I haven't taken any other poster to task on this b/c they do not express the extreme vitriol that you do. Kids can be annoying and if you don't have them I can see how it could be more of an annoyance. Kids annoy me sometimes, but I don't hate the kids or the parents for it. Your reaction to parents and children is extreme whether you recognize it or not.

[catpower2000]

141. Where?

Show me the "I hate parents" post. I stated no such thing anywhere in this thread. If I used those words at all, they were qualified, like "I hate parents who refuse to discipline their children" or the like.

Cat

[SweetZombieJesus]

121. Maybe she doesn't "come out and say that" because SHE DOESN'T THINK THAT

It's pretty clear that she doesn't like kids that misbehave and parents who let them, not all parents and all kids. It's also pretty clear you're getting ultra-defensive and projecting your persecution complex onto Cat's comments. And she's the one who's neurotic?

[Rabrrrrrr]

125. So true

The issue here isn't whether we think children are satan-spawn who have no place outside the home until they have a job and can show that they won't vote republican and that all parents are inveterate selfish breeders with no regard for we self-righteous and properly indignant childless who have the whole truth for the world.

Some on this thread simply don't like kids. Some, perhaps, hate them. Who the hell cares? What harm does it do to anyone if someone hates your kid or all children in totality? Unless they hate so much they go a'murderin', or try to pass legislation denying rights to children, it's no one's business.

This is the issue on the board as I see it: If you have kids, it's YOUR responsiblity, to the rest of society, to make sure they know how to behave like human beings. THAT'S what raising a child is all about - turning them into decent adults. I also believe it takes a village - I think we should all pay for education for kids, and healthcare, etc.

But I - and some others of us here - don't want to listen to the screaming and whining and being poked and having mashed potatoes thrown at us paying for the pickle display your kid tipped over, and especially don't want to be FORCED to help raise the children of other people.

I love kids - I've been in youth ministry for years; I worked in a pre-school. I worked at summer camps for kids. I bloody love kids.

And much as I love to hear kids scream and be loud on the raft in the lake when they're having fun, or am happy to deal with a crying sad homesick camper, and love Harry Potter opening night becuase it's full of kids having a great time, I'm NOT willing to listen to kids scream and yell in a nice restaurant, at an adult-oriented movie, or any other place where children should not be expected.

It is the resposbility of the parent to make sure their kids know how to behave in public. Plain and simple, right there is the truth. It's the PARENT'S responsibility. And if you take the kid out, and they don't cut muster, TAKE THAT CHILD ELSEWHERE.

[GumboYaYa]

127. I don't disagree and

I think most parents on here would agree with you also.

My question is why do anti-kids people on this board assume that DU parents are the types of parents you describe? We are progressive on every other issue, why not parenting? Why can people not look past their individual prejudices to judge people based on the individual and not pre-conceived notions? It applies to the South bashing threads, to the anti-semitic threads and several other areas where progressie DUers make gross generalizations about other members of the community because of personal prejudices?

[Rabrrrrrr]

129. I'm sorry, I guess I missed something

Where is the post that says "DU parents suck"?

[GumboYaYa]

130. Try No. 101

"BTW, you parents who are reading this and saying, "Yes, that's how my children act in public," THEY DON'T, I can virtually guarentee it."

[Rabrrrrrr]

133. Nope, don't buy that argument

Obviously, the audience here is DUers, since this is DU. But the statement, as I read it, is entirely general to parents in general. Obviously, I am not Cat, and cannot know her thoughts, but sure seems to me that neither she, nor anyone else on this thread, has ever felt that it's ONLY the DU parents who suck.

We are - and again, I am saying this with full understanding that I am wrongfully speaking for people whose brains I do not own - talking about parents. Not DU parents. Not freep parents (though they must an awful breed on their own, and worthy of a thread or two, I'm sure). Not hindu parents, yada yada yada.

Just parents.

Go beyond the fact that is a DU board and expand your mind to realize that, though we rant here, we rant here because this is where we are. We aren't saying DU parents are crap. Surely some of them are. bad parents are all over, and to assume or think that liberals/democrats have some inborn perfection of child-rearing is, hell I can't think of the word, so I'll use an old standby of mine: it's dishonest and unclever.

[GumboYaYa]

135. BS

It was adressed to those who are reading it, not all parents. Your analysis is total BS. It was clearly intended as a slight to the members of this forum. Cat intended to insult us and she achieved that. This is not uncommon around here amongst us "progressives."

[catpower2000]

140. It was not intended as a slight to DU parents, it was simple math..

The fact of that matter is, probably 80-90% of the children I see in public are badly-raised, badly-behaved, and obnoxious. When I said, "Parents reading this, I can virtually guarantee your children aren't this well-behaved", it wasn't a slur against DU parents, it was the knowledge that EVERY parent thinks their kid is the most well-behaved little angel in history, and if MOST kids are obnoxious in public, then MOST parents are wrong about their opinion of their kids' behavior.

The only reason I can think of for your taking that statement so personally is that you're awfully defensive about this subject.

Cat

[GoddessOfGuinness]

156. I have to agree with Gumbo...

I felt you were intentionally trying to be insulting towards those who were disagreeing with you.

I wasn't insulted, because you do not know my children. Nevertheless, I thought it was intended as a spark for a flame-fest.

I still would suggest to you that the 80-90 percent of the kids you see are, in fact, 80-90 percent of the kids you actually notice. Not being a parental type; and not being interested in having children, it's quite possible that the ones you notice most are the ones that are most vocal and disruptive.

[GumboYaYa]

160. "I loathe children...."

Loathe: 1. To feel extreme disgust at, or aversion for. 2. To dislike greatly; to abhor; to hate.

“it is that "I will take my children anywhere I damn well please" attitude that makes child-free people hate parents…” In other words that is why people like you hate parents.

All that empathy towards children and parents is touching.

“BTW, you parents who are reading this and saying, "Yes, that's how my children act in public," THEY DON'T, I can virtually guarentee it. It's been well over 5 years since I've encountered children that well-raised.”

Your language is ridiculously inflammatory and to add to it, intentionally insulting.

I am not really being defensive about my kids at all. You don’t know me or my kids and really have no clue how they act. I’m just calling you on your use of inflammatory language and insults. There is no doubt in my mind that you stepped over the bounds of reasonable discourse. You directed an insult at the people who were disagreeing with you with no basis for it at all other than spite. Now you are trying to hide from the clear implication and effect of your words.

[Rabrrrrrr]

146. I think you're being much too sensitive

and taking these posts far, far too personally.

I stand by what I say - but then again, only Cat can speak for herself.

but I don't think anyone here is trashing only DU parents, nor trashing all DU parents.

Believe what you want - it's apparent our minds are made up on this issue about whether we're talking only about DU or not.

I think that, if we're gonna be the wonderful society we want to be, we have to be free and capable to admonish one another. Done with sensitivity, yes, but admonishment is what it is. As we say in the ecumentical movement: "Mutual affirmation and mutual admonition". I think that's incredibly important, and we all need to be thick-skinned enough to handle the occasional admonishment.

[GumboYaYa]

137. Besides you completely miss my point.

I was not saying that all liberals are good parents. I was saying that Cat, you or no one else on this board knows the type parent any of us are. Because you dislike parents in general, does not mean that you have any basis for claiming that I or anyone else on this board is the type parent of which you complain. It is the flip side of your statement.

Why in a forum where people are supposed to have a common cause, do so many people (and it is not limited to parent bashing) assume the worst of others when it comes to their own preconceived notions?

I think that it is more than the parents who need to expand their minds!

[buddhamama]

116. okay, i'm sorry

i was wrong.

i hear the dislike of all things kids and i do take it personally. i've received compliments from strangers and friends alike on my son's behaviour. thanks for doing that too, because it does mean a lot to parents.
it is rare though, you're right, to find such well behaved children.
my son is an exception/al.
he is extremely bright for his age and he probably equals Me in empathy.

the funny thing is, if you didn't have this aversion to kids Cat, i think you'd like him.

i agree with you about the parents wanting to keep to their single non-child scene. i don't take my son to movies that aren't made for children nor does he watch them at home, not the violent ones anyway. he likes some 'adult' movies like "Cinema Paradiso" foreign films are a favorite,he likes subtitles. we are kinda home bodies, we read a lot and hang out.

"... you are a wonderful and empathetic person. You, however, are extremely rare."

thanks Cat, i appreciate the kind words.
it makes me sad though, that we(you and i) are rarities.

[VelmaD]

164. My parents insisted...

on that kind of behavior when eating in public. Eating in nice restaurants was a big deal to me and my little brother and my parents used that. If we didn't behave ourselves and display good manners it would be a REALLY long time before we got to eat out again.

My best friend/sister has raised her almost 14 year old the same way and it's stunning to see her compared to other kids her age sometimes.

A litte discipline and enforcing the rules made a huge difference as far as I'm concerned.

Darth Velma

[blondeatlast]

98. This mom agrees with you on one point, Cat:

My experience with the current generation raising children is that they refuse to give up their pre-children social scene, which is why there are so many more children in completely inappropriate venues than there used to be.

So right--and the kids are bored and get stir-crazy, so, you guessed it, they act up.

There's too many of those parents out there. My rule of thumb for restaurants is the kid doesn't go unless I see crayons at the hostess stand; no movies rated beyond PG (and with a juvenile type theme).

What really cuts me is when I GET THE BABYSITTER so that I can enjoy an adult function and other parents bring their kids along. Since good babysitters are hard to find, this reduces me to about 3 "date nights" a year; but I signed up for it when I signed the birth certificate.

GGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

[catpower2000]

104. I bet!

That would piss me off, as a responsible parent, too.

I think your rules of thumb are totally appropriate--if the hostess stand has crayons, I deserve what I get. :)

:toast: to your parenting skills!

Cat

[blondeatlast]

96. STANDING OVATION, GofG!

Your last paragraph speaks volumes about the misunderstandings that lead to threads like this.

How often have I seen adults behaving ridiculously and disrespectfully in public and people laugh it off; yet, if my son gets a bit out of line and I try to remove him from the situation I get the crap from both sides.

[primavera]

163. Parents assume a great deal of license

I have nothing against children personally, but I do find it somewhat presumptuous that so many parents take it for granted that everyone they meet will be as enamoured with their children as they are. There is a woman in my condo building who has a little girl of 5 or 6 who runs after building residents jumping on them and striking them with her fists. And her mom stands by watching and positively beaming with pride over how adorable her little girl is! Excuse me, but hitting people is not cute, yet if you have the audacity to complain about it, mom will glare at you like you're some intolerant child-hating monster for even thinking to question anything her precious child does.

Yes, I am respectful that children are learning and they need some time to learn, but their parents need to be teaching, and limits need to be placed upon children until they have learned. I was out at Bryce National Park a few years ago, famous for these incredible sandstone sculptures that have been slowly carved by wind erosion over millions of years and was watching kids clambor over these exquisite structures like they were jungle gyms, breaking off large chunks of the sandstone and even intentionally kicking at them to faciliate their destruction. Moral of the story: parents, I'm sure your kids are wonderful, but they do not have license to do harm to others and it is not "cute" when they do.

[GumboYaYa]

58. I get an unimaginable amount of joy from my kids.

The best part of my day is being greeted at the door with a dirty slobbery kiss and a big "Daddy's home."

I really don't give a rat's ass what other people feel about my kids or the way we are raising them. If someone tries to say something to me about it, they better plan on getting an earful back.

[DemExpat]

62. Having my kids was also the highlight of my life, Gumbo.

I wouldn't trade the experience, the hard work, and the joy for anything on this earth.

DemEx

[SOteric]

65. That's sort of like asking if we're all blonde, blue-eyed and

clean cut.

We're individuals, not a hive-mind.

[MiltonLeBerle]

70. One of the problems with some people on the left-

It seems as though they would actually prefer a hive mindset.
(as long as it's their particular (usually vanilla) mindset)

[ohmyman1]

68. kids

don't have em. don't want em. feel too much emphasis is placed on children in general.

[MiltonLeBerle]

71. You really should work on that negative attitude thing-

Do it for the children...

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

99. Thank you for the stunning contribution to this thread!

om edit: reply to #68.

[Uzybone]

78. Strange people in this thread

people who "hate" or "loathe" children should shut the fuck up and deal with it. There will always be kids, people will always reproduce and if that puts your panties in a bunch then thats too bad. Passing some sort of judgement or the other on a person simply because they have children is extremely ignorant. I could say people who have pets are incapable of loving other humans or are dirty etc. and that would be extremely ignorant as well.
I agree parents should be aware of where they take children but the fact is most places are child friendly because guess what, most people who go there want to bring thier children too. Not loving children to me is pretty strange considering every last one of us was once a child.
On the other hand I dont think there should be special govt priviledges given to people just because they have kids. If you take that responsibility to have a child you shouldn't be expecting anything special for it. Tax credits for children and marriage smack too much of social engineering for me.

[MiltonLeBerle]

87. One question-

Why aren't we childless people entitled to voice our opinions...in your opinion, that is?

"...people who "hate" or "loathe" children should shut the fuck up..."

[Uzybone]

94. they can hate children

and other kinds of people all they want, but all this whining about other peoples kids is very childish indeed. But no, Im not saying child haters shouldn't voice thier opinions.

[MiltonLeBerle]

102. childish indeed?

People "whine" about all sorts of things- the weather, their golf game, Bush, their jobs, etc...etc...etc...
Why is it that the people who decide to voice their opinions about all the crappy parents out there and the kids they allow to roam free to annoy others are the ones that are being "childish" in particular?

You've never "whined" about anything at all, I take it?

or did you just feel like throwing a couple stones before heading home to the glass house?

[Uzybone]

170. We've all whined

but I havent whined about why it rains or why the sun shines. I certainly wont whine about why other people decide to reproduce. Most of this thread hasnt been about crappy parents, its been whining about the fact that kids act like kids. I dont know what child haters want. Parents to keep children locked away until they are perfectly trained or become adults. One of you even hates the sounds children make when they talk normally. Thats insane!

[slappypan]

86. a child-friendly society?

Here in the U.S. we talk a lot about our concern for children, but I think much of what is done in the name of "child-friendliness" in this country does kids a real disservice. It is more like extreme overindulgence interspersed with periods of total neglect. As a whole we seem to have very low expectations of children and a very low regard for their intelligence compared to what I have seen in other countries. Too many parents seem unable to treat them like little people who have something valuable to contribute and treat them more like little exotic housepets who must be entertained every minute. Just look around at all the crap that is marketed to kids, clearly it is more than liberals who are seriously conflicted about kids, it is as if this whole society is torn between saccharine sentimentality about kids and utter contempt.

[Seneca]

88. disproportionate generational attitudes

It is my opinion that perhaps Americans consider the elderly disposable, or invisible, even though with some irony I note that people are living longer, retiring with more income, and more active socially on many levels.

Will our collective attitudes towards the elderly change as we ourselves get older? The so-called boomer generation is just a decade or so away from retirement and the senior discount at Denny's. Will the increasing independence and activity of the elderly change and improve their status in a culture long known for revering youth?

I do not believe anyone protesting the overt visbility of children in public is calling for the ill-treatment of children, or wishing they did not exist. They are calling for a sense of proportion on childrens' roles in public life. Surely, we all want the best childhood possible for everyone's children, and surely, we know what happens to them now does have repercussions felt for years, until they too, are the elderly looking out over us.

But the road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions, and even the best-intentioned child advocates of DU need to know that as important as children are to sustaining civilization, they are at the foundation, not the pinnacle, of our civic life. I do hold rather firm to the opinion that the disproportionate exaltation of youth in our culture has devolved into a kind of unhealthy elevation of children into miniature, empowered adults. Too much power, without the equipment for its responsibility.

I don't think the people weighing in with views calling for the reduced visibility of children in public life mean to imply that the parents on DU are guilty of poor child-rearing (I do not say 'parenting' - verbalizing nouns is a peevish rant for another day), even though that seems to be a common reaction from the parents on here. To paraphrase the theme from MST3K - relax, it is just a board. No one is out to accuse you of being bad parents just because you may have done something remotely similar as the parents in the anecdotes found here and in Zombywoof's thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=118610&mesg_id=118610. Perhaps the defensiveness is the nagging of a guilty conscience, or a latent insecurity about your qualities as a parent. Again, relax, for you are surely doing what you feel is right, and your children are receiving the guidance they need. I do not think it is wrong for some to point out, childless or not, when some fall short. Remember, even in a supposedly free society, your rights end at about the tip of your nose.

Society cannot be bettered until all of us, from birth to death, are treated more humanely and with greater equity. We should not exalt youth at the expense of our common humanity, or to keep the reality of aging and death at bay.

[Rabrrrrrr]

90. Wisely spoken like Seneca!

Wisely spoken, indeed.

[geniph]

128. Applause, Seneca

You picked your nickname well. Thank you for a well-reasoned and well-put post.

[wellstone_democrat]

95. Most Dems I know fit your description

or 2/3 of it at any given time. Some DID marry very young and didn't finish college, etc. and some go to church regularly, etc.

Sure, I know plenty of people who are still single and whose like of children runs from distaste, to disinterest, to love them.

I guess I can't get too worked up about whether or not Zomby would have liked mine when they were younger. I did. I still do!

[Zomby Woof]

97. there ya go

I recommend that NO ONE gets worked up over my opinions.

[Rabrrrrrr]

117. Oh oh - I got hot and bothered and sort of, well, you know...

cold shower needingish....

is that okay? :spank:

[ScreamingMeemie]

145. I love my kids, but I don't expect you to.

Seriously, just respect them. That and maybe remember that we all had to start out this way. You threw a fit in a store, as did I. Well I think I may have been perfect, but anyway. :hi:

[Seneca]

149. lol nt

[GOPisEvil]

150. Ahem...

[JVS]

153. LOL

[REP]

158. Too "Child-Friendly"

As others have pointed out, the single, childfree/childless get bent over when it comes to taxes to subsidize the reproductive choices of others, and then we're told we're evil and selfish etc if we dare object to misbehaving, screaming children in appropriate venues.

Some people here have chosen to hear "I don't like children" as "I don't like your child." Not true. I would venture to say that the majority of us who don't like children aren't interested enough in any child to dislike it. Just as not liking carrots is not a statement on the worth of carrots, not liking children is what it is and no more.

[Zomby Woof]

171. I was getting impatient!

Finally! The wisdom of REP!

[smirkymonkey]

186. Well put!!

I love dogs, and don't care for children, but the reason I don't have one is that I am unable to care for it properly due to my living situation and schedule. Therefore, I do not have a dog. I am not offended by people who do not like dogs, it's a matter of preference.

However, I am offended by those who wish to harm, kill or banish dogs from their little section of the world. As I would be by anyone wishing to do the same to children.

I would not bring a dog to a place that it does not belong and I would be sure to train it well and, as it's caretaker, be sure to consider the needs and feelings of those around me - not all of who are as enthusiastic about the creatures as I am. I don't think it is too much to ask of parents to extend that kind of respect to those around them.

[arwalden]

159. Child-Free Flights... Or Child-Free First Class

I'd pay MORE for special once-a-week set-asides (or even charters) that prohibited whining crying cranky screaming children on airplanes.

I'm not suggesting that children shouldn't fly. I'm saying that they annoy me and that I would love to have the option of private or premium flights that prohibited children.

Go ahead... flame away.

-- Allen

[geebensis]

161. No flames for you

If you and enough others wanted to pay extra for a child free flight why would anyone be upset?. I can't imagine you'd find many parents who'd care much one way or the other, let alone flame you.

mm

[MissMillie]

167. Why would we flame you?

Given the option, you would choose to avoid them. That's what I would expect you to do.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

189. Sounds like a good idea...

In addition, airlines should provide info for parents of children who are flying to help them manage their kids. I took my first flight with my oldest when he was an infant. I had NO IDEA what it would do to his poor little ears! The other passengers were exceedingly kind, and helpful even though I know they suffered from his piercing screams. I was totally unprepared...

[bloom]

165. I think it is a really positive thing when people recognize

that they don't like children and have cats (or dogs or nothing) instead.

It seems with so many doing that - not having kids - that there should be a lot fewer unloved kids than there used to be.

But that's obvious - isn't it.

[primavera]

179. Try telling that to my mother...

...who keeps badgering me for grandchildren. I keep trying to tell her that my golden retriever is the best-behaved, cutest grandchild she could ever hope for, so why does she need more? But I'm afraid she's not buying it... :)

[Chilly_Willy]

172. Children are children

Screaming babies, wondering nagging children in a grocery store... these things are normal & cute. Children are just children, they shouldn't act like adults, that would just be weird they need to be corrected and not erased. There was a time we all were children so respect them for who they are and encourage them to become well rounded adults...one day. If you treat them like crap, they will grow up to be crap and I don't think anyone wants another Hitler so be nice to children!! And respect their parents for taking care of them and not pushing them out on the street which happens all the time in the US.

Also, I heard about this on the radio the other day for all the parents that want to see a movie, but don't want to leave your child at home with a sitter - http://reelmoms.urbanbaby.com

[DemExpat]

174. I admire people in stores who react to annoying kids

by doing something funny, surprising, in an affectionate, positive manner. This seems to usually work like a charm in ending the disturbing behaviour.

So much more can be won with love, kindness, respect, and humor!

I love kids, even the bad ones, and wish them well, just like the rest of humanity inhabiting our crowded planet.

Hate will get us nowhere fast.

DemEx

[Heddi]

177. it's funny---

kids love my big fat head. I don't know why---they always have.

So often a child will be crying or having a fit, and I just look at them, stick out my tongue, make a wagga-wagga face or whatever, and they stop crying---I'm sure it's my big fat balloon head (although some fat-head naysayers will say I'm solely providing a distraction :-/ )

When we were in Vegas, we were in line for a 2am breakfast, and a mom & grandma were there with a little boy--no more than 3 or 4---in front of us. It was late at night, and the poor little guy was prolly tired and cranky. He was crying and huffin and puffin---Mom was holding him against her chest, and I was doing my best (standing behind her) to get his attention. I finally did, and started making goon faces at him, and within SECONDS he hushed up, and started laughing and 'flirting' with me. Mom and granma were both VERY relieved "thank you..thank you and your big fat balloon head" they kept saying.... :) (well, they did say thank you, but probably just thought about the balloon head part :) )

My patience is short with children, but me and my big fat goon head have a way of making crying babies smile----they're probably laughing AT me and not WITH me, but hey--who cares! As long as they've stopped crying---that's all that matters to me :)

[Heddi]

173. I have more of a problem with the parents than the kids

themselves---because the parents (generally) are the ones that tell (or imply by lack of disipline) little Ashleighey and Trystayne and Steffaneyee that it's "okay" to have ill behavour in public.

At my old job, EVERYONE there had kids except for me, my husband (who also worked there) and a scant few other people.

The people with kids saw no problem with bringing in Junior on the busiest day of the week and allow them to run around the department willy-nilly getting into anything and everything their sticky little hands could get ahold of.

One kid was *SO* awful---he would go up to people and say "Geeze lady lay off the fries! You're pretty fat" and "How can you fit through the door with your big butt?" and such wonderful things like this. He was such a dream to be around. Especially when you're talking on the phone to a client who spends about $500,000 a year on advertising and he stands behind you and screams at the top of his lungs "I GOTTA POOP I GOTTA POOP I GOTTA POOP I GOTTA POOP". That's just charming.

And what's even more charming is when Junior was there carrying on in his oh-so-adorable ways, mom was in the break room, totally oblivious to his actions, allowing her co-workers to be unpaid babysitters while we were trying to do the jobs that we were hired and being paid to perform.

And when mom is informed of her child's oh-so-charming behaviour, she would throw her head back and laugh and say "Yes, he is a doll, isn't he" and then walk away, leaving Mr. Satan there to wrek more havock on the department.

He shredded papers. He moved papers. He took papers and put them other places that they didn't belong (which can be kind of a downer at the job when the papers that he finds the need to move are the papers that you need to complete your job duties).

When he was there, you coudln't leave your desk. You couldn't go to the bathroom. Frankly, you couldn't do your job because of him.

I totally blame 1) THe mother for just not caring enough to see what a little shit he was and not subject her coworkers to such tantrums (which occured every time he was there) 2) The manager of the department for allowing her to continuously bring her child into work despite the utter disruption he caused when he was there.

But see, Mom was too cheap to pay for child care. ANd no, she's not a single parent struggling. Both her and her husband cleared over $60k a year--I know because I worked with her, knew what kind of commission she was making, and knew her husband's job and what kind of money such a career brings in. They weren't hurting for money, they just were cheap and found ti cheaper to have Satan there for 3 hours in the afternoon than to pay for 3 hours worth of after-school care.

But that's not the only bad child/bad parent I've encountered in my life.

Not all children are ill behaved---but the majority of them are (the majority of the ones I've encountered). I don't go out of my way to seek out ill-behaved children, but they certainly make their presence known to me.

- Shopping at Safeway, some little angel decided it would be funny to pull the fruits from the bottom of the displays, causing apples, oranges, peaches, plums, etc, to roll onto the floor, blocking an entire section of the store. As he went through the store, his fingers were in and on everything. Mom stood by, stoic and uncaring, saying not a word, and when the produce manager suggested that he NOT pull fruit from the bottom of the display, she says "Well maybe YOU shouldn't make your display so tempting for children"

- Eating at a rather fine dining restaurant, some little angel decides to play hide-and-seek underneath all the tables in the restaurant, weasling her way between legs and tables and chairs, bumping people and using the restaurant as her playground. MOm and dad sat their, eating their meal in total silence (Seeing as their little angel was running around beyond their earshot). My meal was almost over, so we didn't have to put up with it for THAT much longer, but several tables of people actually got up and left because of the disturbance that was being caused

- Going to see The Exorcist at a midnight showing, where a mother decided to bring her two toddler-aged children to this movie, who proceeded to scream and howl during the entire thing. Mom finally left 10 minutes before the end of the movie. People actually clapped when she left. I have to say that in this instance, I have no ill-will towards the children themselves, as it was not their decision to see such a NOT-child-friendly movie.


I am childless by choice. I really don't want children now, and probably won't in the future. Even with well-behaved children, I find that they really run down my already short patience level. I am not a role model.

I think that people who have children are great, as long as they disipline their children and notify them of unsavory behaviour. By disipline, I don't mean beating them on the head, or whipping them with a belt---but there ARE ways of punishing a child when they act out, and sadly, not too many parents are doing that these days. They'v bought into the psychobabble that children should be free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, in order for them to be rounded, fully functioning individuals. I disagree with that, seeing that the children who were allowed to do what they want when they want with no repurcussions have grown up to be adults who believe that they can do what they want when they want without any repurcussions.

For parents of children--this is not a slam on you. This is a slam on BAD parents who create BAD children---you know, the parents who give GOOD Parents a bad name---the children who give WELL BEHAVED chilren a bad name.

No, I don't hate children, but I do wish that I didn't have to be around them as often as I'm forced to.

I also wish that parents would realize that not EVERYTHING was created to be child-friendly. Not every place of business was meant to be accessible to children (antique stores, etc). There are some places where it is inappropriate to bring children, and I'm not just talking about strip clubs and bars.

SOME parents feel they have the right to inflict Junior and Sissy upon everyone else in the world---they're like Smokers who think that because they Smoke, everyone else around them should bear their smoke, regardless of whether they want to or not.

I would like there to be places, not just bars and strip clubs and porn stores, where children's attendance is DISCOURAGED. Where people without children, or parents who have left the kids at home, can go and not be innundated with diapers and bottles and crying and misbehaving.

It would be nice. I'm not asking that every place in the world be child free, just places OTHER than bars. As it is, I pretty much have to assume that anywhere I go is going to have children present. I just wish that those of us without children had more choices with regards to attending places that are child-free.

:)

[Zomby Woof]

175. huzzah!

I love your posts, and not just for the names you cite for the kids, lol. :D

[Heddi]

176. and I love You!

and not just for your sardonic wit :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

178. And not just child-free places -

I'd also like to see more parents grow up and realize that they can't bring little Kasheena and Cody to all the places they used to hang out as child-less people, and that now that they have kids, well, gosh, they just can't be going out as much as they used to. That's the price they pay for having children - and the childless pay enough of the price for those children, we shouldn't have to sacrifice our ability to have a quiet, relaxed evening out without fear of some uncontrolled whippersnapper, proabbly bored out of his mind after the first hour of sitting at a restaurant with selfish mom and dad, throwing stuff and playing hide and seek.

[Heddi]

181. well exactly

I still don't understand why restaurants and clubs and stuff can have SMOKING and NON SMOKING sections (where indoor smoking is allowed, anyways), but they can't have CHILDREN and NON-CHILDREN sections.

I think that many people would re-think their desire to bring along their offpring to every establishment if they were forced to sit with NOTHING but OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN while they ate, drank, hung out, etc...

See, I find that people NEVER have a problem with *THEIR* child--it's always OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN that are bad...never theirs...always someone else's.

Force all people with children to sit in a CHILD-AND-PARENT only section of an airplane, and see how quickly they can find a sitter for their next vacation

Force all people with children to sit in a CHILD AND PARENT ONLY section of a restaurant, and see how quickly they can find a sitter next time they go out to dinner.

Again---I would never go to Disneyland and complain about the kids---hell, as an adult WITHOUT kids, I'm in the minority at Disneyland.

BUT--I *SHOULD* be able to go into a $50-a-plate restaurant and expect a certain level of professionalism with regards to the staff AND the clientelle, and if a couple finds that they can pay for an outrageous meal, but cannot afford a sitter, and their child disrupts my meal, my evening, my conversation, then I should have a right to complain about it.

I got a massage once at a VERY upscale spa, and in the room next to me was a woman and her kid.

See, massages are supposed to be relaxing and rejuvenating and all that shit---but it's hard to be relaxed when the kid in the room next to you is playing vrooom vrooom car game bang against the wall and HA HA HA HA HA MOMMY MOMMY MOMMY MOMMY BANG MOMMY LOOK AT ME MOOMMY I WANT SOMETHING TO DRINK MOMMY CAN I GO POTTY BOOM VROOM VROOM MOMMY WHEN CAN WE GO TO MCDONALDS MOMMY MOMMY...

yep. That really helps the wrinkles just fade away..... :not:

[Rabrrrrrr]

185. ach, intolerable

Kids at the massage place - that's even worse than in the nice restaurant! Unbelievable. I've never had the gumption to complain to a manager at a restaurant for an unruly child, but at the massage parlor - I think I'd have stopped and demanded something be done, even a change of room, and for management or someone to give the idiot mother a good swift kick in the head for stupidity. Sort of to jar her brain back into the proper position, so all nodes are connecting properly.

"Ooh, my children never make a fuss. It's always someone else's kids." Bullpuckies. Even in my super-well-behaved youth groups, and my very well behaved niece and nephew, acting up happens. I stop it, but it happens, which is why I'd never think to take any of them to Danielle or Atelier or etc.

I love to watch the kids at Chuck E. Cheese and Shakey's - they have a blast, and i know they'll be there, and that's part of the fun. I don't like watching kids when I'm in a so-called quiet restaurant trying to have a nice, adult conservation. And to further mollify those on this thread who think that "I like quiet" is the same as "I'd love to see your kids be set on fire and damned eternally you miserable breeding filth because I'm a child-hating paragon of infinite hatred toward you and the rest of your reproducing swine", I also, when I want a quiet meal with friends, don't like a waiter who pops by every ten seconds to ask how things are going, how's the food, can i get you anything, blah blah blah.

[MiltonLeBerle]

188. Did you get the spa to give you a credit for another rub, or something?

Especially if it's a very upscale spa, I would have said something to the massuese, or a mgr., or someone- and in a diplomatic manner but 'firm' manner that you were not getting what you were paying a premium price to recieve. There most definitely are places where children need not be.

Maybe the spa should offer some type of sound-proof child-room for clients kids...although I suppose that the liability costs for something like that make it almost impossible in the litigious world we've created.

[Brewman_Jax]

180. Submitted for your consideration...

That the rift between parents and childless is a off-shoot of the VRWC. Well, not literally, I don't think that the VRWC is that far-sighted, but consider this:

The only thing that all of the neo-con/freepers have in common is that they agree on is the 1950's definition of "family," aka the nuclear family, that is: two married heterosexuals, with naturally-produced offspring. The man is the sole wage earner and the woman stays home to tend to the home and produce children. Anything other than the above is NOT a family. Notice that anything other than the nuclear family is marginalized and denounced.

Think about it, when was the last time you saw a childless conservative? (Not counting the TV talking heads.) Childless people tend toward the political left.

The government has been enlisted to promote the nuclear family. The child tax credit, creation of low-cost morgages (families got to live in houses), Defense of Marriage Act are just a few examples. I won't even go into workplace examples.

The neo-con right knows that it can't win in a head-to-head match on the public issues, so it has to politicize private issues. Family values, religion, etc.

One of the earlier posters noted how that couples with children quit being radicals tend towards "conservative" values.

History shows that it takes less in resources to produce the next generation of true believers than to convert new ones.

Notice that in most every attack on our civil rights, the neo-con right always does this "in the name of our children." We can't our children corrupted by those evil outside influences, can we?

What does this have to do with the rift between the childless and parents? They know that the left can no more march in lockstep than herd cats. I know, I have 2 cats, and I can't herd them. Reading the above posts, this is a big issue, and a personal one with a lot of people.

That's where wedges between groups are placed. When we are divided, we are easily conquered.

Just my observation.

[Zomby Woof]

182. thank you

You are in essence agreeing with what I said above, albeit from a very different angle, and with an eloquent manner.

It is a false, artificially divisive dichotomy. There need be no conflict with the childless and a support of political agendas which benefit all of us, including children.

[Brewman_Jax]

183. Anytime

All of this came to me while at lunch. It's been too long since I've done a thinking post--I needed the exercise. :thumbsup:

[Rabrrrrrr]

184. I agree with what you say

Especially the neo-con desire to breed not so much for the joy of kids but "so there will be more of us than them", I don't think this particular issue on children is enough to wedge the party apart.

Aside from DU, I don't hear any real public discourse on the issue of idiot parents who let their kids run around helter-skelter.

Though I do hear, from the liberals and conservatives both, the "The Children! Who's gonna save the children!!" arguments for programs and agendas (whether taking harry potter out of the library, or taking guns away, or stopping pesticide use).

Children are not our future - there is no future, there is only now, and we're all in it together - adults and children. I prefer legislation and social action that helps people; not children, not adults, but people. And I'd prefer a much less selfish culture that wouldn't allow people to push their crap on others, whether it's their hellion kids, their boom cars, or their second-hand smoke.

Sadly, though, the neo-cons, as you stated, are pretty darn tough to find a childless one, so the dems also have a strong problem of having fewer people who have children than the repukes.

But that's the strength of our party, and of our position.

[pizzathehut]

187. Its like Mardi Gras really....

Think about it like Mardi Gras in New Orleans. As I understand at the beginning of the parade its a family atmosphere. As it goes through the night and people get drunker it gets more adult with women flashing to get beads and so forth.

So both groups can like Mardi Gras but they must realize theres a place for kids and not.

Incidentally I dont take my kids to bars, casinos, or even to a church that doesnt have a good nursery or sunday school program.