What does it mean when a song is "in a minor key"?

[Paragon]

I seem to be attracted to music in that style, so I'm told.

I played drums in high school (not too many different notes), so describe it as if I were a layperson.

[Whitacre D_WI]

1. The second note is moved down a half-step.

[Paragon]

2. I know THAT

But isn't it a particular sound/style of music?

[Whitacre D_WI]

5. No.

Some styles of music are more commonly played in a minor key, but I can't think of anything (though I'm not thoroughly versed in EVERY classical and traditional style) that is ALL about the minors.

Nigel Tufnel said that D-minor is the saddest key. I strum a D-minor chord as I type this, and I think he's right.

[Blue-Jay]

29. I call it "Lick My Love Pump"

I just watched that two nights ago. (for the billionth time)

[Whitacre D_WI]

44. In D-minor.

[VelmaD]

12. oh...hate to do this...

but you're not quite right. The difference between the major and "traditional" minor scale is that the 3rd note and 6th note are both dropped a half step.

There are two other variations on the minor scale but I'd need a keyboard in front of me to play them to remember exactly how they work.

on edit: The minor I described above is the Harmonic Minor. The natural minor also drops the 7th note a half step. The melodic minor is a little more complicated. You only drop the 3rd note a half step on the ascending scale and use the natural minor for the descending.

[Whitacre D_WI]

18. When I play an A chord...

(okay, granted, I'm primarily a guitarist)

...the notes are A, B, and E. When I play an A-minor, the notes are A, Bb, and E.

I don't know "traditional" music theory, but I do know how I was taught (and the basic chord formations that just about every standard-tuning guitarist uses). ;)

[VelmaD]

23. The E is ok because...

it's the 5th note of the A scale. That doesn't change no matter which minor you use.

Trust me...I've played the piano since I was too little to remember learning, got my Guild Theory High School Diploma (for which I had to do scales and arpeggios for all the major and minor keys at the whim of the judge), and was a piano major in college.

[Whitacre D_WI]

28. Oh, I trust you. I'm not saying you're wrong.

I'm just saying there's a difference between what you get from a more formal instruction and what you learn on the streets. :P

For a (non-classical, anyway -- I can't play like that ;)) guitarist; the chords are as I described above.

I'm sure it all works out in a complementary manner. Perhaps the guitar is a contrapunctual instrument?

[VelmaD]

32. I've never played guitar...

so I have no clue what y'all do. Mostly I'm confused why you'd be playing a B in an A chord at all. The basic chord from a piano perspective is the 1st, 3rd, and 5th note of the scale - in the case of an A major chord an A, C sharp, and E. For the minor the C sharp would drop to a C natural.

This is fascinating though to talk about the differences between what I learned and what you learned. I learn something new every day...but it usually isn't about music. :)

[Whitacre D_WI]

38. Hey Vel -- I fucked up.

See this post and the one above it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=1225915&mesg_id=1226078

I miscounted. :P

[VelmaD]

41. Hee...it happens

Don't feel bad. I had to sit here with my eyes closed and pretend I was at a keyboard and really throw my brain backwards to remember all those minor keys. :)

[Goldmund]

31. Not true

A chord is A, C#, and E.

a minor is A, C and E.

[Whitacre D_WI]

37. You are completely correct.

DAMN! DAMN! DAMN!

Like I said, I'm a guitarist. I know what to play, but I don't know every note on the fretboard by heart....

I miscounted. :eyes:

[TheWizardOfMudd]

39. I'll vouch for that

Correct.

I can image A, Bb, E. Ouch! ;)

[Whitacre D_WI]

42. I just played a A, Bb, E.

:scared:

[Goldmund]

60. Oh, but it's nice!

It's just that it needs the right context. Jazz people use that as a minor 9th chord all the time (as long as there's an octave + between the tonic and the dissonant note).

[BringEmOn]

58. I thought A chord was A C# E

and Am was A C E. It's been a while since I picked up a guitar, though

Ed: Other posters beat me to it...sorry

[Quahog]

66. Umm, not to be rude, but no you don't

Assuming you are playing your A major chord in open position, you have the second fret depressed on the second (B), third (G) and fourth (D) strings. This gives you, from your lowest note to highest (assuming you are not playing the open E on the bottom): A-E-A-C#-E. The A, C# and E form the basis of your major triad. To form a minor triad, you would drop the C# to a C natural.

The B functions as the second or ninth degree of the A major (or minor) scale. Now, that's a wicked cool note to throw in, especially in combination with a flattened seventh degree (nice bluesy-jazzy chord), but it doesn't make a minor triad. If you drop that 2nd/9th degree to a flat 2nd (Bb), you're going to have some serious dissonance on your hands. Flat seconds are thrown in whenever one wants to introduce a Middle-Eastern vibe (tonic-flat 2-major 3rd takes most Western ears straight to Saudi Arabia).

[Zuni]

77. no, an A Major chord

is A C# E

[Whitacre D_WI]

50. BTW...

I was just talking about an A vs. Am chord (ignore the "B" nonsense). In the chord, you drop the second note played a half-step -- in the scale, yes, it's the third note.

[VelmaD]

52. I kind afigured that out...

took me a while but I got it.

And I know you said you tried that A, Bflat, E chord and didn't like it. Go back and try it with the E thrown in. It might be better. I can remember using chords with flatted 9ths in them back when I played a lot of jazz.

[Misunderestimator]

3. What it means is that you like to be depressed.... :) n/t

[Paragon]

6. It IS nice.

Like a warm, yummy blanket I can wrap myself in anytime. :silly:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. It means he'd make a good jew..all our songs are in minor keys!

[Paragon]

15. No, but I am circumsized.

Too much information?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. Not for me...I don't care :-)

But I thought you said you were supersized!

[Paragon]

24. It IS possible to be both, y'know.

:7

[Misunderestimator]

16. Ain't THAT the truth...

I spent a week singing High Holidays (or is that holy days) for a synagogue once. I was depressed for weeks. :)

[LynneSin]

4. Minor keys tend to be more somber in melody

because of that one key that is off by a half step.

At least that's what I've learned in the 12 years that I played musical instruments. You won't find many happy tunes written in a minor key unless there is some break in the song where it goes sad and then gets happy again

[Canuckistanian]

7. Yeah, think "Adagio for Strings"

Very heavily minor keys there.

[Misunderestimator]

9. Oh yeah... very somber... an incredibly beautiful work though. n/t

[Paragon]

8. Question

So most popular music (that isn't "somber") sticks to major chords?

[LynneSin]

14. Well, songs tend to change keys many times during the song

Sometimes a song could be an upbeat song but has an interlude in the middle that maybe is meant to 'provoke thought' so the song will switch to a minor key during that bit and then go back to the major key when the song gets happy again.

I'm trying to think of a song that invokes that style, but I'm at work right now.

Also songs will use key changes for the big finale.


I keep thinking of The Tubes "She's a Beauty" because that song definately has a key change in the middle of the song where it's minor but in general it's a happy song.

She's A Beauty
The Tubes


Step right up and don't be shy
Because you will not believe your eyes
She's right here, behind the glass
You're gonna like her
'Cause she's got class

You can look inside another world
You get to talk to a pretty girl
She's everything you dream about

(But don't fall in love)
She's a beauty
(She's one in a million girl)
She's a beauty
(Why would I lie)
Why would I lie

You can say anything you like
But you can't touch the merchandise
She'll give you ev'ry penny's worth
But it will cost you a dollar first

You can step outside your little world
(Step outside)
You can talk to a pretty girl
She's everything you dream about

(But don't fall in love)
She's a beauty
(She's one in a million girl)
One in a million girl
(Why would I lie)
Why would I lie

(But don't fall in love)
If you do you'll find out
She don't love you
(She's one in a million girl)
One in a million girl
(Why would I lie)
Now why would I lie

---- Instrumental Interlude ----

(Step outside your world)

(But don't fall in love)
She's a beauty
(She's one in a million girl)
One in a million girl
(Why would I lie)
Now why would I lie

(But don't fall in love)
If you do you'll find out
She don't love you
(She's one in a million girl)
One in a million girl
(Why would I lie)
Why would I lie

(But don't fall in love)
(She's one in a million girl)
(Why would I lie)

The bold parts were in a minor key. This song also has a finale where they repeat the chorus a few more times and the key changes in the finale to make it even more upbeat

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. Yeah but Hava Nagila is a happy song with a minor scale..so is

Django Reinhardt's Minor Swing...the jews and the gypsies were ON TO something!

[sangh0]

48. Minor keys need not sound sad

Blues is played, for the most part, using minor scales, and many blues tunes are quite happy.

[Quahog]

67. Blues scales are not really minor scales

The blues feel is created by juxtaposing some minor scale degrees against a major chord that's played by the rhythm section. This works because these "blue notes" are often voiced in between the precise major and minor degrees... this is especially true of the third degree of the scale. Listen to a good blues guitar or harmonica or sax player, and the third note of the scale is always BENT, it's somewhere between the major and minor. The seventh degree can alternate between flat and natural. A sharp fourth is often thrown in for flava.

These notes played against straight major triads give the basic blues vibe. Jazz blues will complicate the landscape with major sixth degrees on the tonic chord, and lots of goofy ninths and so fourth on the IV and V chords. Once you get into the full jazz-blues turnaround (VI-II-V-I), all bets are off. Play what you like!

[sangha]

73. You are 100% correct

Thanks for explaining the details

[Gato Moteado]

well, there tends to be more tension.....

....but i don't necessarily think songs in a minor key are sad by nature. isn't a lot of eastern european music played in minor keys? they dance and party to that stuff like crazy.

[LynneSin]

20. Sometimes it's just to invoke a change in the mood

:D

[VelmaD]

51. yes and no

Some eastern european music is in minor keys but some is also in scales other than the classical western scale we're used to. Same for a lot of non-european music.

[lanparty]

57. Yiddish music ...

I don't think I've heard on in major yet. Nor have I heard one without clarinets and accordians ;-)

Keys are basically different ways to order tonal music. If you take your standard scale (Bb major for all those high school bandsmen) and START it on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th note, etc... You will effectively be playing a different scale.

You can tell what "key" a song is because harmonic music tends to meander on the 1st, 4th and 5th. I song that does not END with a 1st chord will sound incomplete.

The only real exception is the Blues scale which has 6 notes instead of 7.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

10. Two songs to consider

1. Do you remember the song "Sandman" by America? It starts out with the guitar striking the same chord over and over. That is a minor chord.

2. Do you remember the song "China Grove" by The Doobie Brothers? The opening chord that starts the song is a major chord.

If you can contrast the two chords in your mind, the minor chord is kind of sad or ominous sounding, where as the major chord or is more happy sounding.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

11. i too find minor keys more fun.

most people agree that songs in minor keys sound "sad". but i think that is mainly do to your own interpretation. i heard an interview one time with some musician who said that growing up his dad played loads of minor key songs on the piano, and so to him these songs/key remind him of happy times.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. Actually all the notes of A minor are the same notes as C major

A pentatonic minor key is that key three half steps down from the corresponding major note...all scales are cyclical...

You like music that doesn't make you happy...

[Misunderestimator]

25. Whoa... you sound like you know what you're talking about :) n/t

[Whitacre D_WI]

26. But what about the diatonic?

:crazy:

Seriously, I'm a guitarist. I know a few scales, but I don't know what the words mean. Not exactly a music theory major, I. ;)

[Misunderestimator]

30. Diatonic relates to both major and minor...

basically it is playing all the white keys on the keyboard... five tones and two semitones. No accidentals. I know that's not much help though. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. All the white keys if you are in the key of C (or a minor)

[Misunderestimator]

43. Oh lord... now she's correcting me... :)

Yes, you're right. Starting from the key of C.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. sorry

*heads off to corner*

[Misunderestimator]

47. No need for apologies... I'm impressed. n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. Actually pentatonic is five notes of the scale, diatonic is seven..both

the pentatonic and diatonic A minor scales are the "relative minors" to the C major scale

I shouldn't have said pentatonic in the first it just confuses the issue. Diatonic includes the sharp 7 and the 2 note.

[Misunderestimator]

36. Damn, woman... where do you get this musical knowledge?

Just curious...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Did I forget to tell you that part..

I will..hey wait..I told you I come from a musical family..father was a drummer..uncle was a bandleader...I grew up on the laps of Vegas acts

[Misunderestimator]

45. Oh YEAH... Those LV chorus girls... hmmm

On their laps? That's so cool. :snicker:

[sangh0]

49. Damn, all these years I've been wondering where my childhood went

only to find out that nsma lived it for me!!

[Goldmund]

33. That's "relative" minor

"Pentatonic" is when you take out all of the half-steps from the diatonic scale. Like, C,D,E,G,A -- that's pentatonic.

[Whitacre D_WI]

22. Think of "We Can Work It Out" by the Beatles.

(figured I'd go with a song everyone knows)

The verses are in a major chord (E, I think -- never tried to play the song, and I don't have it on -- just doin' this by memory). The bridge, however (John's "Life is very short..." part) is minor.

[Love Bug]

74. I think "Eleanor Rigby" is in a minor key, too

Adds to the sadness of the song...

[patriotvoice]

27. Refers to the notes marked in the initial signature that are to be ...

played flat or sharp, unless modified by an accidental.  Every
major has a relative minor, as seen below:

Key sig.    Major      Minor
0           C major    A minor  
1#          G major    E minor  
2#          D major    B minor  
3#          A major    F# minor  
4#          E major    C# minor  
5#          B major    G# minor  
6#          F# major   D# minor  
7#          C# major   A# minor  
1b          F major    D minor  
2b          Bb major   G minor  
3b          Eb major   C minor  
4b          Ab major   F minor  
5b          Db major   Bb minor  
6b          Gb major   Eb minor  
7b          Cb major   Ab minor  

While most minor key music sounds "sad" there is no
reason the opposite can't be true.  Eg, Mendelssohn's Scherzo
is quite boisterous but it's in minor key.

Most songs change key signature as the song evolves.

And it takes a trained ear to tell the difference between
major and relative minor (or minor and relative major).

[GoddessOfGuinness]

53. Take your keyboard and find "A"

Now play a scale (8 notes) on the white keys from A to A.
You've just played a "natural minor" scale, also known as the Aeolian mode.

In the "harmonic minor" scale, you'd play the same notes, except you'd raise the seventh note a half step (in this case, playing G#) to create a "leading tone" to the "Tonic" (in this case, A)

In the "melodic minor", you would raise the 6th and 7th degrees of the ascending scale (in this case playing F# in addition to G#), but on the descending scale, you would simply play the natural minor scale.

In the most basic terms, from a Western perspective, one might say that minor keys sound sad and major keys sound happy. I'll add that there are a number of joyful East European and Middle Eastern tunes that happen to be in minor modes.

I'm more of a Mixolydian person myself. :nopity:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Ok the professional classical musician has shown up to kick ass!

:D

[GoddessOfGuinness]

61. Did you take guitar lessons?

My husband teaches his students all these different scales and modes...several I'd never heard of, because they're used mostly in jazz.

I was lousy in music theory in college. I think I just needed to recognize a direct application for the info to my instrument...maybe something like an improv course.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. I studied with several professional musicians

My uncle was a bandleader ...so I had some pretty intimidating teachers...and took lesson with Ted Greene for a while...your husband would know that name.

I actually checkled when you wrote mixolydian..I was going to ask if you were trying to turn your violin into a fiddle.

I will admit, I am not as schooled in the scales themselves so much as in the sounds and types of music one makes with the scales....surf music for instance relies heavily on Dorian...country..esp honky tonk uses lots of mixolydian

But I was trained in jazz theory so I know my chord relationships... cycles of 4ths and 5ths, minor thirds, flatted 5th's ...half step up or down etc.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

64. Have you ever heard of Bucky Pizzarelli?

Or his son John?

Bucky gave my husband a few lessons when he was a kid. Bucky's brother was married to my husband's aunt, and played the banjo with Mitch Miller.

A number of old folk tunes use Mixolydian. I guess that's why I like it so much...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. I have met John

and yes, I am very familiar with Bucky's music...I work on a show twice a year associated with Namm....about 20 of the world's finest guitar players on one stage..met loads of my idols and managed to squeeze a lesson out of them.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

71. Coincidentally,

the violin teacher who influenced me the most played in the orchestra for at least one of John's cds, and knows Bucky very well.

What kind of work do you do on the show? Sounds like a great gig!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. I'll send you a link to it when I get home

[patriotvoice]

56. Mixolydian is sweet, but give me Phrygian.

How sweet it is.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

62. Isn't there an old sailor's song called

"Phryigian in the Riggin'"? :evilgrin:

[Quahog]

68. Now take your cd player and play Miles Davis' "So What"

The whole thing is in Dorian mode, starting on the tonic D. If you were going to improvise on the keyboard for this song, you would stick to the white keys and resolve (for the most part) to A and D.

Of course, there are good ways and not-so-good ways to do this! Listen to Miles' solo for the good ways.

Precious little popular music (even jazz) in our culture is strictly modal. Some Western art music is, but not much... to Western ears, modal music becomes monotonous (think about liturgical chant), as we are used to constantly shifting harmonic reference points, even in pop songs, and especially in our art music.

This is not at all true in most other cultures. The ragas of Hindustani and Carnatic music are very much analogous to modes (with lots of codified nuances of performance other than simply the pitches that must be followed by the performers). The classical gamelan orchestras of Indonesia use instruments with fixed pitches (metallophones and gongs), and their tradition recognizes modes (patetan) based on the note of the fixed scale upon which the melody resolves.

I could go on and on. I have a degree in Ethnomusicology. But I am sleepy!

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............

[sangh0]

55. How "keys" were created

The original pianos didn't have any black keys. There were only white keys but they played the same notes as they do now. All scales on that piano were played on white keys.

Now look at a piano. You'll see that there are black keys which alternate in sets of two's and three's. IOW, there's a white key (wk), then a black key (bk), then wk,bk, wk. That's followed by wk, bk, wk, bk, wk, bk, wk, and then the octave is completed with another wk. A complete octave looks like (note 'b' means "flat" as in "B-flat")

C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C
wk bk wk bk wk wk bk wk bk wk bk wk wk
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C

Please note that the wk's are all "natural" notes. They are neither "flat" nor "sharp". Also note how there are black keys in between ALL of the white keys except between E & F, and betweem B & C. This is why the bk's are in alternating sets of two's and three's

In musical notation, the distance (formally known as the "interval") between one note and the one closest to it is called a "half-step". The interval btween C & Db is a half-step. The interval between D & Eb is a half-step. The interval between B & C is a half-step.

Bigger intervals are computed by adding up the half-steps it takes to span the interval. The interval from C to D is a whole step. The interval from G to A is a whole step. The interval from B to C is a HALF-STEP because there is no black key in between B and C.

Looking at the diagram above, and armed with the info that a C Major scale starts on C and hits all of the wk's, and only the wk's, you can compute that Major scale is comprised of the following sequence of intervals:

R-1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2

R is for the "root" (AKA "the tonic") of the scale, which is C for a C Major scale. You get to the next note in the scale by moving up a whole step, to D. Then you go up another whole step, to E. Then, you go up a HALF step to F, and so on until you get back to C.

You can play any major scale by playing the tonic note and then following the formula of intervals I listed above.

Minor scales were created by starting your scale on the A note, which because of the alternating sets of two and three bk's, results in a different sequence of intervals. Instead of:

R-1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2

you use

R-1-1/2-1-1-1/2-1-1

Check that against the diagram above, and count for yourself.

Conceptually, minor scales should sound (almost) identical to any other scale. The only difference, conceptually, is that one minor scale is somewhat higher in pitch than the other, but a song played in A minor (for example) should sound identical in mood and tone as the same tune played (or transposed) in C minor. However, because of slight tuning deviations in the way the notes are spread out across the keyboard, different keys have come to be associated with certain moods and tones.

[DemExpat]

69. Thanks for this explanation....

I learned something interesting and new once again here on DU!

I took piano as a girl, but never had this explained to me then.

:thumbsup:

DemEx

[BringEmOn]

59. What do you get when you drop a piano down a mine shaft?

A flat miner.

[jpgray]

65. There are natural minor, melodic minor, harmonic minor, pentatonic minor,

Take your pick. If we're taking minor key, then it's just the sixth of a major key, and the scale would be the Aeolian mode, I believe.

[johnnie]

72. No No No NO!

You are all wrong! A major is when you play a full bar chord, and a minor is when you raise the middle finger.
:evilgrin:

In all seriousness, it's impressive to see all the musical knowledge on this thread. I am just a career hack, but have hacked away for a long time. I sometimes wish I would have learned proper theory, but I think I would have thought too much while writing my music.

[Zuni]

76. In a minor key

the third note in each scale is a half step lower. The sixth note is also a half step lower. The seventh is also low (sometimes)

Here is the key of A Major: A B C# D E F# G# A
Key of A Minor: A B C D E F G A