Please help with this grammar question.

[freetobegay]

I thought the rule was i before e except after c.

So whats up with weird?

Whats the exception to the rule?

[jdsmith]

1. Numerous exceptions to this spelling "rule"

Many hard&fast "rules" of English usage, syntax, and spelling are up in the air because we have a living language that has always swiped elements from other languages and that has always tried not to give authority over the language to an official body (although English teachers have become the unofficial body in charge)(I'm an English teacher--this authority is not an altogether good thing to have).

[freetobegay]

3. Thanks

Even though I feel I am right back where I started at. :)

[Misunderestimator]

9. And...the preposition used ...

at the end of your sentence shouldn't be there... not that I'm being picky or anything, but it IS a grammar thread, no? :evilgrin:

[pagerbear]

11. Well, it was labeled grammar, but

...the actual question was spelling.

[Misunderestimator]

13. Now who's being picky?

:bounce:

[pagerbear]

17. That would be me.

[freetobegay]

22. I believe it was a grammatical question.

[jdsmith]

26. "That would be I" is the correct way to put it

Nominative-case pronoun after forms of "to be" (although that sounds kind of--what's the right word?--IDIOTIC.)

Orwell's last rule for usage: Violate any of the aforementioned (in "Politics and the English Language") rather than commit an outright barabarism--which "That would be I" is a good example of.

(See how I arranged to end a sentence with a preposition?)

Edited to acknowledge the typo "barabarism."

[freetobegay]

21. I have a way of fixing that, but I'll be nice this time.

:evilgrin:

[Misunderestimator]

23. And...

"but" is usually spelled with a "u"... you're giving me too much material... :evilgrin: :bounce::bounce:

[freetobegay]

24. Ok teacher!

I knew staying in the boys locker room all the time would get me in to trouble! :)

[Misunderestimator]

25. Oh, you bad, bad boy...

:)

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

6. This is why English is so hard for foreigner to learn.

Most languages have rules that make sense...that is they stay the same all the time...no exceptions. I've been learning Spanish on my own for a few years and it is most definately a superior language to ours. English is a crazy language...be glad you learned at a young age or you'ld be pulling your hair out trying to learn it.

[Westegg]

18. ...And why it's so hard for American to learn... (n/t)

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. There are dozens of exceptions...

...and they are hard to generalize about.

The rule often is violated when a word comes from the Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) side of the English language family tree -- neighbor, weigh.

It is more likely to be observed when the word comes from the Romance (Latin & French) side of the family tree.

But even then, there are scads of counter-examples -- e.g. friend, which is cognate with German Freund.

[patrice]

4. There are no rules for exceptions, usually . . . .

and there are many exceptions because English comes from so many other languages (with a strong influence from German, not Latin as commonly believed). If you look weird up in the Oxford English Dictionary, you will see that it was once spelled with a y, i believe, and the whole evolution of the word and related terms is kind of odd, some think historically closer to pagan "magic" sources than many other words.

[Book Lover]

8. Modern English is descended

from Old and Middle English; there was a heavy influx of Norman French when William the Bastard defeated the armies of good King Harold Godwinson and brought his court to England (a heavy indirect source of latinate terms). The heaviest actual Latin-Graeco influence came more during the Enlightenment, when formally educated men started to coin and use Latin terms in "everyday" English. The spread of English literacy helped that along.

on edit: I forgot to say that Old English is a sister language to the older Germanic languages. I don't have my ref books here, but I know there is a great language tree illustration in one of them....

[patrice]

12. I would like to see that tree - n/t

[Book Lover]

14. Here are some online versions

http://softrat.home.mindspring.com/germanic.html

http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/oe-language.html

I'll do my best to find the book I mentioned above when I get home

on edit: spelling

[patrice]

15. Thanks, I'll put those on my desktop and look at them when I have time n/t

[pagerbear]

16. My college French teacher made a lot of the Norman conquest

...and its effect on the English language. For instance, the gentry began speaking French while the hoi polloi (now there's a term we could have a whole new thread about!) spoke whatever incarnation of Old/Middle English was being spoken at the time.

That's why it's a cow when it's outside and it's beef when it's inside on your plate. Not sure if other languages have this sort of contextual distinction between outdoors and indoors, or rustic vs. gentry.

[Book Lover]

20. Further nitpicking

"Hoi Polloi" means "the people" in Ancient Greek (I don't know about Modern Greek - anyone?); in English we put an extra "the" in there, but it is more technically correct to say something like, "Hoi polloi are fed up with that SOB pretender in the White House." than "The hoi polloi are going to vote him out in November!"

[Metatron]

5. My teacher mom always said

i before e except after c, or when sounding like "a" in neighbor and weigh

[put out]

7. Except for "weird", or seizure, or leisure, or

on and on. Many exceptions. The i before e thing is a good place to start. Trying to understand when and why it doesn't always work is a drag for me.

[Gildor Inglorion]

19. And then there's the word "science"

;)

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. I remember it as "weird is spelled in a weird way"

then I know that the i comes second.