Ayn Rand ---tell me what you think

[The empressof all]

Does anyone here have any knowledge, thoughts or opinions about her

I have only a passing familiarity and have a negative visceral reaction that I can not articulate and is not based on any real knowledge.

My 13 year old was assigned Anthem for Summer Book Report for her Honors English.

Of course I want her to read it (As will I) but would also like to make sure I offer her a balance of ideas.

Kids this age are very impressionable and if anyone is going to brainwash her it is going to be Me :) God maybe I am going fundie in the other direction :) :)

[Dogmudgeon]

1. Anthem won't brainwash her

It's a good science fiction story, and it's light on the objectivist nonsense. Mainly, it's about individual identity against group enforcement of conformity.

However, the fact that Rand is assigned reading means that there has been a lot of pressure to assign "right-thinking" reading material. It could be a foot-in-the-door move, too. But the book itself is a good read.

--bkl

[leftyandproud]

30. KEEP HER AWAY from Atlas Shrugged

It is pure evil...seriously
The woman is THE anti-Marx.

[Dogmudgeon]

40. That ought to be easy

Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged?

Or tried?

It is the most horrifyingly dense, bombastic, pedantic, unreadable book written in the English language since Science and Sanity.

If you ever catch your daughter smoking weed, cursing you and her father, blaspheming the Lord and having illicit sex with the man who tatooed her -- and you are thinking of a suitably severe punishment -- then Atlas Shrugged. It will have her begging for the red-hot knives within an hour.

--bkl

[The empressof all]

44. That sounds like too much suffering for my poor kid

Will it work on my husband :) :)

[leftyandproud]

45. I actually found it VERY readable..

almost TOO readable...the dialogue..the way she described things...It seemed very vivid and realistic to me...It was so good, and the way she portrayed the main characters made me start sympathizing with them..and AGREEING with her philosphy...It is only when I finished that I thought...HOLY CRAP...what is this doing to me?

I was almost changed by it...but luckily I pulled myself back from the brink...and realized why the book is so damn evil...because it hooked me...forced me to keep reading, and persuaded me towards the anarcho capitalist philosophy without me even realizing it.

The book is PERSUASIVE...and towards the ends (philosophy & policies) which most on the left disagree with.. THAT is why Rand is hated so much...That book was able to plant seeds in my head without me knowing it...luckily I had acquaintences who recommended other books to "counter" Atlas Shrugged...and eventually pulled me back into the light..

for a moment though....

[Dogmudgeon]

46. You're a better man and/or woman than I, L&P ...

I found it to be similar to what you found -- but I resented that fact that she was trying to mess with my mind in such a brazen, insulting way, as if I was an idiot in need of education.

But I'm pretty sensitive to that kind of thing. You probably read it at the "right" time, in the "right" frame of mind.

Once I was fully aware of what Chairman Ayn was trying to do, the reading was just tedious; without the mind-f**k, the plot and characters were uninteresting. Dagny Taggart was no more exciting at that point than Barbie.

The libertarian philosophy is seductive, and I was under its spell, myself, from about age 15 until I was in my 30s. The combination of a "hermetic", self-reinforcing system of thought and a strongly emotionalized message is a killer. Little wonder why so many people, including people who you'd think were naturally libertarian, have had such strong criticisms of it.

--bkl

[emulatorloo]

2. Right Wing Wackette - but the stories can be fun sometimes

I wouldn't get too too worried about your daughter.

[Catfight]

3. I just finished "The Fountainhead," and I'm reading her book

on Objectism. I love her quotes and her ideals. But then again, I always enjoy different philosophies, yet I retain my own through my own experiences. I highly doubt your 13 year olds mind will comprehend the depth of Ayn Rands thought. But I believe introducing your daughter to other female thoughts is vital for her to have her own autonomous self image. For a balance of ideas, have her read, "Siddhartha," which has probably been one of the most influential books for me in my first year of college. I liked it because it taught me that you can't have someone else tell you or guide you to your own truth, we all must walk our on way and find our own truth. We all are the Enlightened Ones, although we may learn from each other, we stand on our own. You'll love Ayn Rand, and your daughter will as well. "The Fountainhead" was well worth the 700 pages I just read. I'm spending this summer reading classics I've never read, any suggestions on what my next classic book should be?

[The empressof all]

6. Thanks for reminding me of Siddartha

I read that when I was about her age and it was a wonderful experience. I will get that for her (and me too!) In a similar vein I also remember enjoying Autobiography of a Yogi (do not remember the author)

[gpandas]

10. i loved "siddhartha", it had...

a profound effect on me,too. i often wonder if it was that good, or merely the right book at the right time. i liked hesse's other stuff,too, and still pick up "majister ludi" at times and try to make sense of it. a tough read.

[Selwynn]

12. Demian and Nacissus and Goldmund were priceless to me.

[gpandas]

13. what do you think of hesse? n/t

[Selwynn]

15. I love the man - to really fall in love, read "My Belief"

It's out of print though..

[gpandas]

20. i mentioned him in a phi;osophy class...

and the instructor dismissed him as "some novelist". he has many critics, but i feel he is vastly under-rated by the intellectual elite. nice to hear from other fans.

[Selwynn]

24. Some Nobel Prize Winning author.

While Hesse probably doesn't fit in a philosophy class, as he was a literary writer, there are not many literary critics who will try to deny that he was one of the major figures of twentieth century eurpoean literature.

I graduated with a degree in philosphy, and I can't recall Hesse being a part of any of that curriculum, but that seems to make sense to me. However, in literature classes it would be pretty tragic to ignore his contribution. If you had instructors that did that, you should get your money back. :)

[oscar111]

16. Descartes' Meditations nt

[KissMyAsscroft]

4. Your daughter will figure things our for herself....

People figure things out for themselves. You can't protect her from ideas, and you shouldn't.

[The empressof all]

7. No I do not really worry about her

She has a good strong independent mind. Thank goodness. I think I was responding more to the fact that she is attending a new school in the fall. We had some trouble in the past in our district with complaints about Harry Potter in the school library so I am a bit vigilant about monitoring the right wing influences there to assure she gets an opportunity to be exposed to many different ideas.

[SmileyBoy]

5. Not all of Rand's books are crap.

A couple are pretty good stories. It's mostly when you get into "Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" that you start seeing nonsense in her writing.

[brainshrub]

8. I used to love Ayn Rand.

I even belonged to the Objectivist Club in college.

I changed my mind about Rand as I realized that the logical extension of Rand's beliefs is a violent anarchist society, were the powerful are philosophically obliged exploit the weak in the name of progress.

Without social policies that are based on the common good and a bit of altruism, society would be unable to produce geniuses such as Roark or Rearden. Think about it: How would Rearden be able to store his money safely in the bank without govt regulation of the financial sector? (Such regulation is created for the common good.)

[oscar111]

14. watch out for Atlas Shrugged

Also, when i was in the lower school levels, i always got to CHOOSE from books to review.

Since she got no choice, complain to whomever.

Rand has pulled many into far right nonsense. Her institute , i think, is funded for this reason.

Atlas' idea, i have from a review, is that the ruling class geniuses do all the real work, supporting us middle and lower class idle slugs on their shoulders. One day they get fed up and SHRUG us off. Sounds like the usual rant justifying hatred of welfare clients. Purified, it leads to Hitler's extermination of the dependents.

Also.. a bad theme of her books.. again from just reviews... is that the highest good is pure intelligence. Not so. Kindness is the highest. Would you rather have an evil genius next door shooting into your house daily, or a kind moron who helps you take the garbage out daily? I rest my case. Kindness trumps intelligence. Tho both have uses.

A warning: Greenspan is said to be a fan of Rand.

[jayavarman]

18. It's hard to form an opinion from a review

for if you haven't read the book you can't tell if the reviewer is full of it or not.

Atlas Shrugged didn't have much to do with class warfare, if I remember correctly. One of the heroes of the book- John Galt (as in 'who is John Galt?' that you see scrawled on batroom walls, etc . . .) was a laborer working for the protagonist's railroad company.

Anyway, like lots of Rand it was all about individualism, captialism & innovation & the bad guys were the government & politicians who were espousing some kind of communism or socialism.

Rand was a refugee from USSR & had very strong opinions about capitalism vs. marxism . . . . On a personal level I understand that she was something of a freak.

Anyway, it's been a long time since i read it, but it sounds like the reviews you read did not give the most nuanced picture of the book . . . .

I've heard that Greenspan was nore than a fan, he was more of a protege & has been describes as being a member of her "inner circle". If you google it you will see much more info.

[Jabbery]

9. Personally, she was a bizarre and sick individual

She was a cult figure in her own mind. She convinced her female secretary that she should consent to allowing the secretary's husband to have sex with her - in front of the fully clothed secretary. She engaged in erratic and unstable behavior. Her books are interesting, but her personal life was more screwed up than Rush Limbaugh's, and that's pretty f'ed up.

[Selwynn]

11. Lots of thoughts on Rand

The books that I thought were good were Anthem, The Fountainhead and to a lesser extent, The Virtue of Selfishness.

The VoS was really a book that stood as a criticism of a lot of the wrong thinking I was surrounded with at the time, however as I grew up I begin to be much more critical of Rand's overarching theories.

When Rand is taken as a literary writer, she has some serious merit. As a "Philosopher" she's never been well respected by the academy, primarily because her theories do not stand up well to scrutiny.

As a progressive in later years I found her politics to be hard to swallow. She is a fanatical, laissez-faire capitalist and very Machiavellian in her positions, and I am at fundamental odds with those sentiments.

She also is a very polarized thinker, specifically when it comes to the idea of radical self interest being the only just motivation. Of course the things we do in life, we do because on some level we want to do them for ourselves, but to completely ignore the language of self-sacrifice is to deny a real experience of human living. We do make hard choices that cause us some short term difficulty for the sake of other people as well as the long term happiness of ourselves.

But when I refer to her poor philosophy, I'm primary referring to formal Objectivism, in either her or Nathanial Branden's form. It's not so much that I disagree with it, its that it is not well constructed or sound, the result of which has been that philosophers in the 20th century tore it to shreds in a scathing way.

I read the fountainhead at a time in my life where I needed the story of a man uncompromisingly committed to his ideal beliefs no matter what the world threw at him. That message of radical "self hood" was good and healthy for a boy trying to become a man. Anthem has a similar theme. I found that literature to be meaningful and good, but her philosophy to be weak and poor.

[EstimatedProphet]

23. Agreed

Rand's philosophy was asinine, and rejected by the philosophy community at large. The "greatest philosopher since Aristotle" nonsense came from her supportes (of course), who used reviewed her philosophy from an Objectivist stance; this is similar to Republicans saying they have all the answers, and as proof asking only Republicans what issues are of the greatest concern (and amazingly, this is what's going on today! Wonder who they learned that trick from?)
Here's a page of links:

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/critobj.html

[Az]

17. Rand made a fundimental error

She presumed she had all the information necissary to conclusively define the nature of the human mind. She made a leap of faith. And from her premises of what she thought the human entity to be she discarded much of what connects us together. The religious would call it spirit. Skeptics would call it our social nature. Whatever you call it, it is a vital part of who and what we are.

[checks-n-balances]

19. I saw her on Donahue once & she didn't make a good impression

She was extremely brittle in her beliefs and in her manner toward audience & host. Although she advocated something called "Objectivism," she was far from that in her manner. From what I've read of her personal life, she was very eccentric and strange in her relationships, even as far as being a Svengali type.

I first heard of her in the mid-1970's through a professor of ethics who warned us that her philosophy was cultish & anti-ethical.

Far as I know, her she grew up in the USSR and all her philosophy was a reaction to communism/collectivism. And she seemed to latch onto some of the negatives about capitalism. Her biggest theme seemed to be "The Virtue of Selfishness", probably because of being materially deprived growning up. Here's a critique of her ideology as expressed in Atlas Shrugged:

"Capitalistic Fascism: One wonders if the bizarre capitalism Rand espouses is a Vision or merely a poke-in-the-eye-with-a-sharp-stick to the Bolsheviks who caused her to be booted out of the Soviet Union. Giving her the benefit of the doubt, Randian capitalism, with its Leader Principle of the natural leadership of the Competent Capitalists, and her "A is A" one-truth belief system, show a fascistic bend echoed in her propagandistic portrayal of the hobbling of the Brave Capitalists by the whining toadies of mediocrity and the collective good. The one thing Rand truly hated besides altruism was collectivism. She is clearly uncomfortable with the tenets and "weakness" of democracy. Fascism may be a strong label, but Rand's economics are forthrightly anti-democratic and exclusionary, with much regard for the Man At the Top and little for the masses beneath. Her "greed is good" philosophy is taken to ridiculous lengths in its simple minded equation of money making with competence to lead.

"Intellectual Naa-Naaism: The smart folks, seeing the stupid democratic/collectivist world wishes to economically destroy them because it is "unfair" that individuals should become rich from their brilliance, take their toys and leave, letting the world sink into a medieval, Luddite squalor until it comes to its senses.Please. "Brilliant" people, so smart that they would let us millions die and our societies collapse until we would say that they were right and say we're sorry, please come back and shepherd us...this is sophistry without any of the cleverness.

"Cult of Selfishness: Most disturbing is Rand's disdain for altruism. To Ayn, altruism is evil incarnate. Her hatred of weakness is a libertarianism gone bad, a naked selfishness that may work if you're a have, but will not if you are a have-not. Commentators have made much of the hypocrisy of a woman who owed her life to the altruism of others in effecting her escape from the Soviet Union, disavowing the kindness of strangers when she no longer needed it. It seems that there is something within Ayn Rand which could not tolerate weakness in others, and herself. This something leveraged itself into a broader economic nihilism that only recognized the self interest of the individual. It is difficult to imagine with any desire a Randian world of greed and insularity, a world without charity and lacking in compassion. It is clear why so many high school and college kids have a fling with Randism. In the most selfish period of one's life, what is more natural than exploring a "philosophical" system built around selfishness?

"Is this a philosophy? Not really. It is more of a set of rules-of-thumb to rationalize greed and pathological sef-interest. Is it morally bankrupt? No more so than fundamentalist religions, with their narrow-minded interpretations of ambiguous fabalistic parables. It is more of an intellectual bankruptcy, a shrill reaction to a complex world informed by a burning desire for money and a pathological "me first" worldview that disdains the weak..."

More from "Ayn Shrugged":
http://www.strangewords.com/archive/ayn.html

And I just ran across a website full of writings from followers who claim that "environmentalism has become the biggest threat to human survival"!:

http://environmentalism.aynrand.org/

That would give our present-day legislators justification for gutting previous environmental protections.

It doesn't take much to see why Ayn Rand is a favorite of those who advocate permanent tax cuts for the rich while cutting social program that uplift the poor and the middle class. She gives them permission to disdain those who are not selfishly wealthy and for them not to be satisfied with what they have, but to continue in their greed.

It makes me angry now that I'm thinking about it. IMHO, she is a huge ideological influence on Grover Norquist, Karl Rove and Republicans of their ilk who aggressively promote laissez-faire "let them eat cake" economics and government. Her fascistic ideology is just as downright dangerous to us domestically as neocon ideology is to us on a global political scale.

Does that give you (and others, I hope) a little more info about Ayn Rand?

[mitchum]

31. I saw that Donahue episode and my favorite part was...

when the woman in the audience said, "I really enjoyed your books when I was a teenager, but now I reject..." Miss ROSENBAUM went ballistic. I think it's because she knew deep in her selfish heart of hearts that her blather is really only appealing to the unformed adolescent mind.

[gold_bug]

21. two critiques of Rand/Objectivism

THE UNLIKELIEST CULT IN HISTORY
BY MICHAEL SHERMER
http://www.skeptic.com/02.2.shermer-unlikely-cult.html

Big Sister Is Watching You
WHITTAKER CHAMBERS
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38bc27ba7c09.htm

[Kazak]

22. Anthem is actually pretty good...

Should be good reading for you and your kid.

[Sabriel]

25. Lots of weird parallels between "Atlas" and today

What's going on in the world right now reminds me of the downslide in Atlas Shrugged, where basic services and needs are not being met. I get that same sick feeling in the book that I have now when I read of each new atrocity and lie.

Rand's character Dagny Taggart refers to the feeling that a pendulum is swinging wildly, out of control, something I can relate to at this point in my life. I also hope the book doesn't prove prophetic...that change and new beginnings won't come until the lights of New York City are extinguished.

On the other hand, it's just a story. A ripping yarn, as my grandmother would say.

[Bertha Venation]

26. I don't think Ayn Rand'll have as much of an impression on her as you do.

Having a progressive liberal for a 'rent will counteract any eugenistic or "gold is God, might is right" drivel she may repeat from reading Rand.

I suggest that if you find her buying into it, have her find out who Rand was and the kinds of things she spoke of in public. (It's the same thing I suggest if someone's kid starts to get brainwashed by fundies: have the kid read about the war-loving, rape-loving, child-killing, misogynistic and hateful God of the old testament and point out that THAT's the same god he's now worshiping.)

I really think you have little to worry about.

[drumwolf]

27. I tried reading "Atlas Shrugged" when I was 17 and gave up

I never even knew what ideas or philosophy she was advocating in that book, because it was WAY too tedious and tiresome for me to get through.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

28. rightwing goddess

[mitchum]

29. Terrible novelist. Terrible philosopher. Lifelong pretentious teenage girl

(even when she was a withered old crone)

[mitchum]

32. Make sure that your daughter checks it out from a public library...

rather than buying it. That would be a nice insult to the former Alice Rosenbaum

[Jack Rabbit]

33. From Jack Rabbit's dictionary

Objectivism. A moralistic justification of greed and selfishness based on a poor reading of Aristotle.

Rand, Ayn. Hack novelist and quack philosopher (1905-1982).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. Everyone should read Ayn Rand so they can reject her ideas for themselves.

Sometimes you have to try something on before you decide it doesn't fit.

[FloridaJudy]

35. Get her to read Vonnegut as well.

Best Antidote for Right Wing Wretchedness around.

I have my faults as a mother, but at least I raised a kid who reads Vonnegutt and Chompsky.

[Paladin]

36. I Thought She Was Really Cool.......

....for about fifteen minutes in college. I soon came to my senses and realized that, in modern-day society, the last thing we need is someone advocating worship of money and selfishness as cardinal virtues. That having been said, I think they did a pretty good job on the movie of "The Fountainhead." I've always been a big Patricia Neal fan....

[Taverner]

37. Hmmm...if you want to counter Ayn Rand

Try the Sermon on the Mount. Seriously! I hate to advocate religion, but in the case of Ayn Rand....it's seriously the flip side.

[Interrobang]

38. Ayn Rand is a filthy plagiarist!

Suggestion: After your daughter finishes with _Anthem_, give her a copy of Yevgeny Zamyatin's novel _We_, and then tell her it was written thirty years or so before. She'll probably notice that it's almost word-for-word the same story, only with a different ending.

I can't believe all the people defending _Anthem_ as a good novel! It's only a good novel because it ripped off a guy who really could write!

Pardon me, but as an English major, I think plagiarism is the worst literary sin ever, and that's not even saying anything about her stupid-ass "philosophy" that makes half the people I deal with every day forget that other people are directly responsible for almost everything in their lives!

[Dogmudgeon]

41. Worth considering

I read Anthem, but never got around to reading We. I am familiar with it, though.

I almost wrote in my initial message that Anthem was Rand's best novel. If it's that much of a plagiarized work, I could understand why.

--bkl

[Taverner]

42. Ahh but she got away with it

In objectivism she is absolved :)

[Dogmudgeon]

47. Popes can always absolve themselves

Even the word Objectivism was appropriated from the Depression-era school of poetry of the same name.

And after she ascended into Heaven (or was eaten by the worms), Objectivism splintered worse than a college Maoist club.

Boffing Nathaniel Brandon didn't help, either. And it doesn't speak well of Brandon's taste in women (his wife Barbara aside).

--bkl

[ikojo]

39. Alan Greenspan is a devotee of Ayn Rand.

Her philosophy of self interest fits in well with today's political landscape. I view her philosophy as the libertarian party motto...anything that serves me well is good.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2002-09-23-ayn-rand_x.htm

Scandals lead execs to 'Atlas Shrugged'
By Del Jones, USA TODAY
In these post-Enron days of corporate scandal, some of the millions of copies of Atlas Shrugged that have been sold over 45 years are being dusted off by executives under siege by prosecutors, regulators, Congress, employees, investors, a Republican president, even terrorists.
Executive headhunter Jeffrey Christian says many of his clients are re-reading the 1,075-page novel to remind themselves that self-interest is not only the right thing to do from an economic standpoint but is moral, as well.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

43. I've only read The Fountainhead.

I usually am not a fiction fan, but someone lent this to me while I was in architecure school.

So I was interested in the book as sort of a fictional treatment of architecture (in this case Frank Lloyd Wright), and I appreciated her fictionalized accounts of Louis Sullivan, Hearst (Gail Wynand), maybe Louis Mumford (Ellsworth Touhy)(maybe not, though).

I liked the book as sort of tale of being true to oneself and ones vision, and an attack on conformism and conformity. The book was probably intended to be a veiled political tract, but thats not how I read it.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

48. Agree I like The Fountainhead too

For it's stay true to yourself message.

Perhaps she should just see the film. Love Gary Cooper in this one.