I hand an epiphany of sorts tonight...

[Delano]

I was riding my bike to the Blockbuster when it occurred to me - I don't want to be an atheist anymore.

I've been one as long as I can remember - didn't come from a religious home, and the inherent full-of-shit-ness of organized religions was pretty evident from an early age.

I've always thought that God and all the religions were so much BS -fairy tales to make us feel better, and at some level I still do, but I guess I decided that rather than embracing that cold hard scientific probability, I would embrace hope. No matter how slender, hope is still more comforting than the knowledge that I will just die someday and that will be it. I will be no more - finito.

So I think I'm going to start taking suggestions for religions compatible with people who hate religion and are not really into spending a lot of time on them.

The wife is a Soka Gakkai buddhist, but they are far too cultish IMO, and their practice requires too much time and effort. Besides, I'm not sure if reincarnation is what I'm after. A heaven that is kinda like a really nice hotel with all the trappings would be okay. ;)

One thing I do know is this: Atheism sucks. In all of my years as a confirmed atheist, it has never comforted my in times of doubt or sorrow. I'm ready for the red pill. Or is it the blue pill?

[Trajan]

1. How shallow ...

Wham Bam: god ....

[Delano]

4. How Judgmental...

...as though most people's belief in God isn't TOTALLY shallow and a product of conditioning from early childhood.

I see things through the prism of how I grew up.

Excuse the fuck out of me for not fitting your mold.

[Trajan]

5. As we walk this green earth ...

We make judgements ... I will never apologize for making judgements ...

When someone suddenly decides a god exists because he needs comfort, well that person is not really thinking very hard ... the notion that desire for human solace provides evidence of an existent deity is simply false ...

While the intent is 'noble', the stringent investigations to establish the existence of a god requires more than a 'gee, sure would be nice' ...

[Delano]

19. I never said I knew it existed.

I just said I would stop making a policy of denying it. I may never convince myself there is a god - nonbelief in a deity is pretty strongly ingrained in me. I'm just going to be more open to the possibility. I never said that my "desire for solace" proved the existence of anything.

As for "establishing his existence" - are you talking about proof? There never has been any credible proof that he exists or that he does not, and I doubt ther ever will be.

What philosophy has endowed you with your supreme smugness? Whatever it is I'll make a point to avoid it.

[shockingelk]

2. try these

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/section/quiz/index.asp?sectionID=&surveyID=27

[Bridget Burke]

3. Check out the Unitarians....

At a Unitarian Universalist worship service or meeting, you are likely to find members whose positions on faith may be derived from a variety of religious beliefs: Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, naturist, atheist, or agnostic. Members might tell you that they are religious humanists, liberal Christians, or world religionists.

All these people, and others who label their beliefs still differently, are faithful Unitarian Universalists committed to the practice of free religion. We worship, sing, play, study, teach, and work for social justice together as congregations-all the while remaining strong in our individual convictions.

www.uua.org/aboutuu/uufaq.html

I'm not a member but they seem like a pretty good group. Apparently congregations vary; you might check out more than one.

[Kenergy]

6. Grasshopper...

You can study and wonder and postulate about God all of your
life and not know for sure what exists beyond this life.
Step outside your front door and examine very closely a blade
of grass, a flower's petals. Look closely at the structure of
a tree. Look at the clouds in the sky. Feel the warmth of the sunlight
on your skin; feel the sensation of rain drops on your skin.
Consider the Sparrow...it doesn't plant crops, it doesn't work in
a cubicle,it can't even do algebra...but it lives.
My point is, DON'T WORRY ABOUT RELIGION.
Something or someone created the universe, but no one here
including the pope knows who, what or how it was created.
Churches are a multi-trillion dollar, tax-exempt business and
that is all that religion is...a business.
We are here in this time frame for a short while.
Find someone of a like mind as yourself, love one another,
respect others beliefs, and whenever possible, if you have
an extra coat, give it to someone who does not have one.
There's nothing complicated about life.
Live and pursue what makes YOU happy and what makes you smile.
And treat others the way you want to be treated.

[gpandas]

14. the water does not wait ...

for the bird to fly over so it can reflect it's image. taking up one blade of grass, observe the entire universe. your post reminds me of zen. have you studied the zen rin?

[orthogonal]

7. If you need a comfortable crutch

Hey, if you need a comfortable crutch, religion is the way to go!

Try to stay out of the Crusades/Jihads!

[Spinzonner]

8. Make up your own

Worked for L Ron Hubbard

And you get to be the prophet, pope, etc.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. The good news is...

If you're ready to turn on God, the good news is, He's always been there for you. You just have to start listening. Next, you need to decide if your transformation is more religious than spiritual. If religious, then find a church that has a core group of people that share your values (good luck, I haven't been successful yet.) If spiritual, then understand that comfort and acceptance go hand-in-hand. It doesn't mean you'll always be living a relaxed, anxious free life, mind you, but that you will be striving for that goal, by accepting the travails that God puts in your path. And it's the acceptance of even the most difficult challenges that brings comfort to your life. Just learn to stick it out and eventually you will see why those obstacles were put in your path to begin with. When you go through this process several times over, and see them go full cycle, you'll begin to trust in God more often. Your life may not turn out to be heel-kicking fun, but it will be serene.

[dudeness]

11. you honestly believe that?

no offence intended.

[dudeness]

10. hey delano..get a car..

lol

[Delano]

20. I have a car...

But driving it 3 blocks to the video store would probably be...


A SIN!

[Az]

12. What is there about atheism that you though would comfort you

Its not really an organised social grouping. Its merely a rejection of a single principle from some religions. If you wish to seek something that offers comfort or solace you need to seek out groups that have active interests. Secular Humanists, Unitarian Universalists, Buddhists, Taoists, and a host of other groups offer theistic free such groups.

The cold hard truth offers no comfort other than its knowledge. Its very hard to hug knowledge. Humans crave interaction with caring compassionate individuals. A society dedicated to just atheism is not going to have that. A society dedicated to humanity, compassion, and society will. Don't expect more from being right (if we are) than just that.

[orthogonal]

18. There is grandeur in this view of life

What about atheism could comfort me?

Well, I'll let someone else speak for me, as I think he said it batter than I could (emphasis mine):

It is interesting to contemplate a tangled bank, clothed with many plants of many kinds, with birds singing on the bushes, with various insects flitting about, and with worms crawling through the damp earth, and to reflect that these elaborately constructed forms, so different from each other, and dependent upon each other in so complex a manner, have all been produced by laws acting around us.... Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

--- Charles Darwin, On The Origin of Species, by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life

Naturally, I take the use of "Creator" in the above to be metaphorical; I do not know if Darwin himself did.

[Delano]

21. Atheist simply made the most sense, logically speaking.

I never expected any comfort.



And I never got any. I live a pretty full life, so I guess I didn't think I needed any...

[pagerbear]

13. Faith and religion are two different things

Religion refers more to a community of faith ("perhaps from religāre, to tie fast") rather than the faith itself.

My own experience with faith: I don't necessarily know what I believe. I don't think I have to know what I believe. I don't think it has to be the same thing tomorrow as it is today. The most consistent thing I believe about "God" is that I'm not it, and that paying attention to my spiritual life is good for me. And that my model of "God" doesn't have to be the same as yours or anyone else's (I'm really resistant to a 3rd-person model of "God"--my own model has more to do with an interconnectedness of the spirit that's within all of us).

My own experience with religion: I like being part of a community of faith, and find the community I've found within my chosen denomination usually to be enlightened, thoughtful people. I like the symbolism inherent in the rituals and in the statement(s) of faith, and I like the antiquated language sometimes used. I don't take the statements literally, and I'm not sure anyone does--although that's not my business. This experience isn't for everyone, I can see, but it works for me. I get a lot out of it.

I wish you a rich and rewarding learning process as you investigate and discover what works best for you. And what works best for you doesn't have to be the same tomorrow as it is today.

This is all just my opinion. YMMV

[Mnemosyne]

15. Gandhi said that ALL paths lead to the same

destination. Feel with your soul.

I am so tired of those that claim to be spiritual saying that others are not as enlightened as they are or are on a lesser plane then they are. If you truly are becoming spiritual there is no "I'm more advanced than you" crap. All is as it is and all are where they need to be.

Until all feel the ONE, we will continue on the path of materialistic separatism that engulfs this world.

Learn and grow in peace.

Pray to see the world and those around you with clarity, with true humbleness, and you will know the TRUTH.

Bless you on your journey.

[Deja Q]

16. Huh? That's like saying: (but whatever you choose...)

"I'm tired of starving, so I am going to eat something. Now what shall I eat? Is it healthy for me to eat? What if I eat too much, will I get obese? And will I get food poisoning from it?"

The choices are out there. This is a deeply personal issue, and hardly of the sort of the "How do I get spyware off my computer?" variety.

Whatever you choose, believe in the good aspects and OPENLY contest the bad aspects (violence, homophobia, how husbands can treat their wives, and/or whatever else you find contradictory or objectionable.)

I myself am spiritual and acknowledge religion as a catharsis for the masses and allows social interactivity. However, organized religion also tends to get political and exclusive - ironically the very opposite of what you'd think religions would want!

Just be yourself. I think that's what you're truly after.

[Southsideirish]

17. Like my mom used to tell me when I was young and "knew it all"

- "there will come a time in your life when you will need God." She was so right.

[Delano]

22. What a nice bunch of responses!

Thanks!

[bratcatinok]

23. When the student is ready,

the teacher will appear.

It doesn't matter why you've come to the realization you need something more in your life. It doesn't matter that the start of your path is because you would like to be comforted in difficult times. The journey starts with a first step.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

24. I, too was an Atheist... or at least I identified myself as one

But then I slowly cruised through lots of thoughts and books and observations of people and came to believe there had to be some sort of God, and that all the world's older religions were simple expressions of God as they were able to understand Her in their cultures and times.

Where did I end up? Well. I am still alive. But I am raising my children Lutheran. And I now identify myself as such. Proudly.

Why?

Luther had the balls to stand up to the most powerful organization in the world at the time, lived to tell about it and was a supremely talented person... graphic artist, poet, scholar, composer, beer maker, hemp smoker and grower... of course, he had his down sides too, but don't we all?

I believe that a firm understanding of how old Marty came to his break with the Catholics will allow my kids to take things with a grain of salt, and think for themselves when the time comes.

Also, Luterans are not into the required church thing. No one keeps track of how much you spend (well, they do, but they don't say anything about it). I have also had some great conversations with Lutheran ministers about lots of things, many of them were wandering souls too.

Go out, check out some services. See where you feel at home. Good luck.

[m-jean03]

30. My mom's side of the family is Swedish Lutheran

Have you seen the movie "Luther"? That made me cry, it was so powerful the way it told his story. He was an incredible and inspiring person.

[FizzFuzz]

25. I'm a Nichiren Buddhist too!

Soka Gakkai International (SGI). They are changing now. The cultishness I think was more an effect of trying to superimpose Japanese culture on American practitioners, when people were trying to figure out how to practice here, back in the 70's and 80's. I practiced back then and left because of what you refer to--too much time and effort; (though cults usually demand separation from family and money as well, which was never a feature of the Soka Gakkai.) Its eased up now and that change continues--nothing stays the same.

Anyway, I am back practicing now and am very happy about it. The actual chanting helps me bring out something in my life that other forms of prayer or meditation didn't do for me, and I like the doctrine--very reasonable, makes sense to me. Also the people. I like them very much. The local SGI (Soka Gakkai International) group was asked to lead the Gay Pride parade!!! How cool is that?

Ha, I can be pretty wordy, but I am not good at trying to desribe or talk about spiritual experience--I see some other posts here that are much more eloquent than I could be about finding your path. I'm better at talking about what my practical experience has been.

Best of Luck!

[Delano]

28. Yes, the SGI are tolerant of gays...

But they are not especially liberal and they do NOT represent mainstream Japanese culture. I lived in Japan for 5 years, and most Japanese don't think highly of it or its leader, Mr. Ikeda - neither do I. If I could figure a way to get my wife out of it I would, but unfortunately the SGI is doing nothing sinister enough that I could really get her out.

The day Bush started murdering Iraq, my wife dragged me to a meeting - and at the meeting, everybody just laughed and smiled the same insane smiles they always do AND NOT ONE PERSON EVEN MENTIONED THE GODDAMN INVASION. From that point on, I knew I would never in any way subscribe to the buddhist sect that constantly pays lip service to "world peace" but encourages its members to do nothing but mumble for hours at a piece of parchment. Truth be told, I despise the SGI, and the horrible psychological dependency it has brainwashed into my wife.

[FizzFuzz]

31. holy crap!! geez, sounds so different from the group I practice with.

Yeeg!!!

We're all liberals here, all of us! Many different individuals, some activist some not. All very concerned with what's going on, geo-politically, though as I said, being a really diverse group, some are political and some aren't. We talk alot about how we as individuals can make causes for change--we're just regular people, none of us hold influential positions, so the change we aim for is in us. Observing who we are and working to improve our weak spots, which effects positive change within our immediate surroundings, by practicing compassion, wisdom and courage--as best we can (ha, I have a ways to go on that account ;) )

Well, that was an attempt to describe how very different how I practice here seems, compared to what's going on for you. But anyway, this personal growth and its positive effect on my surroundings is what I strive for. And the actual chanting gives me something--hard to explain in 5 words or less, but a boost of energy to push past my internal crap that sets me back. Definitely something noticably different and more robust than any of the other spiritual practices I have done. Again, I'm describing how it feels for me. Your mileage may vary! LOL.

Where you are sounds like the old model. Yes, back years ago, we practiced very mechanically/fanatically and rather than focus on the deep personal change, spiritual and character growth and sense of connection with "divinity" if you will, we instead took a more shallow route which did encourage dependency and magical thinking and relentless grinning. (heh heh) That's why I quit all those years ago. Alot of people I know did.

I dunno, seems reasonable to imagine change happens quickly in some areas, more slowly in others, maybe that's why it sounds so different where you are and where I am. I've never been to Japan either, so I can't speak to that at all. :shrug: And about Ikeda; I read his guidance and encouragement on how to best tackle the ups and downs of life, and I find his words and explanations of Nichiren's teaching quite insightful, practical and helpful. So, I don't have any complaint with him.

Well, anyhow, gee, I'm sorry your experience is so crappy! I hope something changes for you both-- :pals:

Keep searching! Go with your heart;what makes you feel positive and satisfied. What makes sense intellectually, emotionally and in your heart would probably be the best markers to follow.

Very Best to You,
Cindy (Fizz)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

26. I do my best soul searching when

I take a walk.

I try to avoid conscious thought, and focus on my breath. I open myself to awareness of all that's going on around me...the color of the sky, the sounds of birds, the people I meet on the path. If my thoughts and/or emotions react to these stimuli, I observe them.

I'd recommend that you visit the philosophy/religion section of your local library, and check out what interests you. As you read, take note of what you consider "full of shit" and which elements make sense.

Someone else suggested that you check out the Unitarian Universalists, and I second that motion. It's helpful to commune with people who are respectful of each individual's spiritual path.

You might also enjoy http://www.beliefnet.com

Have a nice trip! :hi:

[Taverner]

27. Religion by choice is so much healthier than religion by fear

Ask around - check out the Unitarians or Therevada Buddhists. They are pretty open minded. Reformed Judaism is pretty open minded too.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

34. I love your title line and totally agree!

I wasn't raised with any particular spiritual beliefs, but chose them as I became an adult.

[BlueJazz]

29. I've been an Atheist my entire life and I find comfort in the ...

Stars. I search the heavens not to find anything but just to bask in the wonderful magnificence of the universe. Astronomy IS my Religion
and it does indeed comfort me...

Just the enjoyment of "Being" is totally cool. :)

[carpetbagger]

32. Well, whatever religion you choose, make sure it's a pretty one.

That goes a long way.
Make sure the people at whatever church/church-like place you choose think it's ok for congregants to think and speak freely. Sure, the UU's do it, but I've run into liberal Christian churches over the years from time to time where that atmosphere exists. I think it will be necessary for your long-term happiness as an agnostic whatever, or some dude trying to make a go of it.

And if you can't get into the thing, think about this one. The chances of whatever thing that you are being a sentient being is pretty damn remote. It's pretty special. But the universe (technically the multiverse) is infinite and eternal. You might be again. It is eminently possible that the reincarnation thing is the truth, just not in the way you think of it. No karma, no deity, just little ole material you collecting about you a thin veneer of consciousness for a few dozen years, and then some enormous amount of time later collecting another little whatever. But, the enormous amount of time passes without any perception, because there is none. So don't worry about the dissolution of your soul-being-whatever. The odds of you existing as sentient, as opposed to just being some rock or something, is enormous enough that it's a plausible conjecture that it's only going on because you simply don't have a way of experiencing your nonsentient experience. In my mind it's almost sufficient to get me through the tough parts of my current being with the goals of wringing out whatever I can from my life, but doing so in a manner that retains empathy for the other sucker who may, has or will be me.

Even the UU's think that one is a bit strange.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

33. Try Universal Unitarianism

and btw, I am thinking about becoming atheist from being Christian.

Do we cancel each other out?

;-)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

35. And also remember

you really don't have to belong to ANY denomination or religion.

In 12 step groups they simply call it a "Higher Power" and leave it at that. Everyone is free to define their Higher Power however they want to.

I am Christian, but go to no church, though UU is tempting.