Offer an opinion: Is this verbal abuse...?

[SOteric]

A couple I know (the woman is a long-time and dear old friend) are having on-going issues. This latest is a bit baffling to me.

"Wilma" was in the kitchen talking about her day at work while "Fred" began putting away groceries that Wilma had brought in with her. Of a sudden, Wilma interrupted herself, and in an admittedly harsh and irritated tone said "G*ddammit, Fred! How many times do I have to tell you not to put everything that comes into the house in that one cupboard!" Fred dropped everything to the floor and stormed out, later accusing her of verbal abuse.

For background: Both are intelligent, college-educated adults in full possession of their faculties. Wilma has had repeated issues with having asked Fred to do something or other, or not to do something or other to which he is basically non-responsive and non-communicative. For example: She asked him not to leave his chequebook on the front seat of the car. It worried her that someone would break in and write checks on their account. He neither acknowledged her request, nor told her to go to hell, nor altered his behaviour. So she asked him again, ditto the above. So she asked him again a few days later, ditto the above, etc..., etc...

With regard to the cupboard, he's in the habit of piling everything into one section then closing the door. So, everything's put away. But the next schmoo to open the cupboard gets a face full of groceries. Including some of those which should have been refridgerated and now have to be thrown out.

Wilma didn't quite get the concept that she was verbally abusing him. She came to me, hoping I'd be honest and shed some light on an issue she didn't quite understand. Unfortunately, I don't get it either. Which has me half afraid I may be equally guilty of 'verbal abuse' at some point in my past.

So, to any DU'ers who've not managed to drop into a snooze by this point, - where do you think the line is? Is it verbal abuse just to use a harsh and irritated tone, or is there some more scathingly personal assualt required to qualify?

[GOPisEvil]

1. I t hink it is fairly mild as abuse goes...

...but the larger issue is that this couple does not seem to communicate well. It also seems that Fred is passive/aggressive, from the limited amount of information provided. It seems Fred is tuning Wilma out until the point where he cannot bear to hear her voice, and he lashes out.

</amateur psychology>

[Alenne]

3. What he said.

[SOteric]

11. Yeah, I'm clear that they don't communicate well

but my concern here is that if this is generally considered abuse, I may well be guilty of it myself. I'm not interpretting it that way, but some normal, rational (usually) adult is.

So, yes, they need help communicating; yes he's passive/aggressive, - but is that abuse or does it take a more than irritation and a curseword to qualify as abuse?

[GOPisEvil]

13. I don't see it as abusive, but it's an isolated incident.

I think Fred's behavior is causing the response he's getting from Wilma. But, the central question is what is causing Fred's behavior.

Ta-ta - I'm off for the evening. :hi: I hope Fred and Wilma can work it out.

[SoCalDem]

2. Sounds like Fred needs to be seen by a neurologist.

pre-alzheimers , maybe :(

[SOteric]

6. Wow... I hadn't thought of that

but it does run in his family.

[radwriter0555]

4. Wilma is getting fed up with Fred acting like a child. she's entitled

to treat him LIKE one, so long as he is ACTING like one.

Verbal abuse? Forget that. SOMEONE has to be in charge, and apparently fred can't handle putting the groceries where they belong.

How many times does something this simple have to be repeated over and over?

This isn't verbal abuse. This is speaking your (her) mind. She IS entitled to her OPINION.

Calling him a dumb fukc, or stupid, brain-dead asshole would be abuse... just so it's real clear!

[slackmaster]

Sorry, put-downs are not the best way to deal with children

You have a point, but when you want to get a child to change behavior you have to act like an ADULT, not like another child.

[radwriter0555]

33. BUT the CHILD here is actually an ADULT.

I think it's time fred stopped acting like a child.

although that could be the biggest part of the problem.

[slackmaster]

51. Chrononogical age does not matter

If someone is behaving like a child, you have to deal with them as you would deal with an actual child.

Assuming there's nothing physically wrong with Fred, he continues to act like a child because he's getting rewarded for it somehow. Wilma needs to break the cycle, but her behavior as described here will only reinforce Fred's tantrums.

[Section_43]

43. Could it be possible that she behaves as "mother"

and has always treated him like a child and therefore he behaves as one? Happened at my former job everyday. Upper management communicates with labor force as if they are 3 so, in return, they entered the job site with pacifiers around their necks. Quite effective I might add.

[Occulus]

5. Sounds like Fred

needs to use his big head a bit more and his little head a bit less.

Being male, I can say- we are all too prone to that malady.

[GregW]

7. I think she should stop whining ...

And put the damn groceries away herself!

Edit: Forgot the ;)

[SOteric]

12. You're so thoughtful.

Let me write that down. :P

:evilgrin:

[slackmaster]

8. Fred needs a skin transplant

Or maybe a new backbone. He missed the obvious comeback to any such remark:

"If you don't like the way I put stuff away, then do it yourself."

It sounds like Wilma has a legitimate beef with his behavior, but she didn't choose a very effective way to get him to change it. Maybe she's tired of asking nicely. I don't know and don't really care, but it sounds like they are playing games with each other.

[Nikia]

9. It depends

If this is an ongoing issue and practically everything that she says to him is critical and harsh, I suppose that would qualify as verbal abuse. Some people are more sensitive than others especially if they were verbally abused as children. Regardless, it sounds like they have some marriage problems and need couseling so that they can learn to better communicate with each other.

[Parche]

10. Does their Bed Rock?

I think Wilma needs to spread for Fred!!!hahahah just kidding

[demgrrrll]

14. Now there is one passive angry guy. He does things he absolutely

knows will annoy her and she bites the bait and becomes the focus of the problem.
Passive agressive people are so hard to deal with. I don't have any real advice per se, yes she may have been inappropriate but so is he. I think it is a wash. I believe in situations like this the person who blows up is expressing their own anger and the anger that the passive person is seemingly unable to express. That is about all of the arm chair psychology I have in me tonight!

[Blue_Chill]

56. eh?

Blame the guy that got yelled at by some a woman that can't control her temper.

lol!

[Cheswick2.0]

15. well he seems to have a little passive agressive dance going there

if she says that to him all the time, or if she is constantly belittling him then I would say it was verbal abuse. But if she is just fed up with him ignoring reason then no.

The money you make is not worth the money you spend on clothes for work, why don't you quit <--------> why do I have to bring all the money into this house? You contribute nothing to this family.

Just because you work full time doesn't mean I am going to help with the kids, I make more money than you do. When you make as much as I do then you can have an equal say in how the money is handled and I will help with the house work.

_____ would never be as selfish a leech as you are.

_____ comes from a Normal family and will give me the normal life I want.

That is verbal abuse.

[SOteric]

19. That seems pretty clear to me

and I'd agree that those seem more like what I had assumed verbal abuse to be.

I don't believe Wilma engages in any of the type of belittling referenced in the above. I acknowledge, though, that I'm not in the marriage, just something of an unwitting spectator. Still, I've known her a very long time and seen her under a great many circumstances. She can be sarcastic from time to time but I haven't seen belittling or mean-spirited.

[Cheswick2.0]

23. she needs to look at the situation differently

whatever she is doing now is not working.

[TrogL]

16. Fred may have ADD

he may not have the organizational skills to put the groceries away. Verbal abuse solves nothing.

[SOteric]

20. Fred

is a well-paid and highly respected Structural Engineer. He builds bridges for a living. I can't be certain but I'm thinking ADD and such a career are somewhat mutually exclusive.

[politicaholic]

17. Verbal abuse? Guy needs to grow a spine...

If she's so worried about the checkbook then get a checking account on her own so that she's protected from the inevitable

OR

Break into the car and take the check book so that you're assured that the behavior is changed and the checks never get cashed. Sure it's insurance fraud but...pfft...they'll never find out or even investigate if the car's only loss is the checkbook and a window.

The food in the cupboard is an easy fix. Tell her to do it herself and designate another job to him.

OR

Point out that the fact that he has to pile all of the food into one cabinate is a clear indication that they need to renovate the kitchen to create much needed space and use that excuse to get a cool new kitchen.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. It isn't abuse, it's poor communication skills

It is up to the person making a request to get an answer to their request. The answer can be I accept your request, decline your request or a counter offer.

Wilma needs to not order Fred about the checkbook or the groceries. Wilma needs to make a request and wait for the answer which can be yes, no or some compromise. If the compromise isn't acceptable then more negotiations are needed. We tend to drop out these formailities with those closest to us but those closest to us are the ones we NEED them with because if the air isn't clear with them it effects the quality of our lives.

Wilma needs to apologize for going OFF on Fred and once the air is clear make a request about how he puts grocieries away and where he places the checkbook...wait for an answer from him as to what he will do..then hold him to it...that's how one treats an adult like an adult.

[SOteric]

21. Thanks. I appreciate your input.

I'm really only involved in the question of whether this is abuse, and if so, in what way.

I agree that Fred and Wilma could benefit from some sound advice, but YikesOhMy, I'm not going to be the one to give it to them.

I know that they had some counselling in the past, and that the one thing Wilma reports having gained from counselling is that she is quite, quite careful to 'ask' Fred rather than to order him or to tell him what to do.

As I mentioned in the original post, he is non-responsive to her repeated requests. At best, he says 'okay' and then does nothing to alter his behaviour and acts totally surprised when she recalls their 'agreement' to him. I think I'd be inclined to be a bit snappish, too in such circumstance. And that worries me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. In that regard then I would say no it isn't abuse

he got the response he obviously wanted by not honoring his end of the bargain.
If he pulled that on me I'd yell at him too.

[MaryBear]

24. They're both in it together.

He ignores.
She nags.
He passive aggresses.
She yells.
He stomps out.

Who knows what preceded his ignoring.

They could both benefit from marriage counseling.

[geniph]

25. I think I'd deal with it a bit differently than most

I'd first try the "honey, would you mind putting some of these in that cupboard over there so I don't get fifty pounds of cans on my head when I open this one?" If that still gets ignored, then "Fred, why don't I put away the groceries while you start dinner/clean the catbox/whatever?" If, for some reason, Fred needs to be the one to put away the groceries and can't be trusted to do it in a reasonable manner, then she has two possible approaches: either she subsequently moves the groceries around herself later, or she refuses to open the cupboard. If asked why, she explains why she won't open it, and asks him to get whatever it is out of the cupboard for her. If that becomes enough of a pain in the ass for him, maybe he'll stop creating a pain in the ass for her.

Sometimes the only way to deal with a resistant passive-aggressive person is either avoid them, avoid their backlashes by doing things yourself, or return the favor with equally passive-aggressive behavior. Sometimes they get it and sometimes they don't. If he's persistently doing this, then either he's colossally pissed at her about something and taking it out on her this way, or he's got some kind of hitch in his getalong that needs medication or counseling or has to be adjusted to.

I'm not a believer in confrontation and yelling to solve problems like this. It makes people more stubborn and resistant. While I don't necessarily consider it abusive, it IS borderline - yelling and swearing at your spouse in front of someone else is a pretty bad thing to do, in my book.

[Rabrrrrrr]

36. That is an excellent bit of analysis

good idea to make Fred get the crap out of the cupboard, and tell him why he has to do it...

and if he becomes passive in some other area of life, then we know he has a serious problem that is, as you say, either he's infinitely pissed at her and feels he can't say anything, or he has a biological issue that needs some medication and/or therapy.

I totally epathize with her desire to yell, as it sounds like she's being pushed to a limit with his behavior; but I will also add that yelling and screaming never solves anything. it might get you attention - and sometimes it's the one and only action that will convince your spouse/SO/co-worker that you really ARE pissed off - but oft times the person being yelled at his a good excuse to ignore even more, "Pfagh, she's always yelling. Screw her."

[carolinayellowdog]

26. Contempt is never productive

Hi SOteric,

This reminds me of a study done some years ago of conflict resolution and relationship survival. Couples were observed dealing with conflict, and the key difference between those that survived and those that broke up was this. Those that broke up were those in which one partner expressed complaints or criticism in a contemptuous way-- either with tone of voice, body language, or words. IMO Wilma was contemptuous of Fred in this exchange. The researcher further said that couples consisted of pursuers and distancers-- the one usually making complaints and criticisms and the one usually having to deal with them and doing so with some avoidance. Women are pursuers and men distancers by 2-1 margins. My own experience has been in male/male contexts as a distancer.

I have never been passive-aggressive and have always busted ass to please my partners. But I am absent-minded and a bit of a slob and forget how more organized people want things done. Have ended my two LTRs mainly over being the recipient of contempt from a pursuer who is never satisfied and always finds something to complain about. That leads me to sympathize with Fred but none of us has enough info to know the balance of blame here.

Bottom line, tell Wilma never to express complaints or criticism with contempt unless she wants to create distance in the relationship.

HTH,

CYD

[SOteric]

27. Thanks, C.Y.D.

Once again, - I'm really only interested in knowing whether folks think this qualifies as verbal abuse.

I have no intention of getting involved in their marital disputes or offering them further advice on their issues. Both Fred & Wilma know that they have issues and have seen counsellors in the past.

So, the question isn't 'who's right and who's wrong.' The question isn't "how can we make this relationship work." The question is simply: Does Wilma's snapping at Fred constitute verbal abuse? -and if so, where do folks draw the line? Does everyone snapping at anyone constituted verbal abuse?

[amazona]

29. ok, got it, support your friend, Wilma is not an abuser

I agree, you can't interfere with this. Passive aggressors don't normally change, but no one wants to hear that their partner is a jerk for life. Just be a friend, and let her know if she asks that it is OK for adults to speak their mind, even if -- gasp! -- in a harsh sarcastic tone once in awhile. Lord only knows how she is being pushed when you aren't there to witness it. Just be a friend and be supportive and let her draw her own conclusions.

Just my humble opinion. Everyone passive aggresses a little bit once in awhile...but to the point of DESTROYING FOOD? Fred has a severe problem from this description in my humble opinion.

If snapping at someone is considered verbal abuse, we are all abusers, and there is no hope for the wicked world. C'mon! Even Jesus Christ snapped and waved a whip at the money changers in the temple. It would be blasphemous to hold ourselves to a higher standard than Christ, surely. Again, just MHO.

[carolinayellowdog]

32. People feel abused when they feel...

that their partners express contempt for them. I understand your unwillingness to get drawn into this drama, and you have to make it clear that you won't. But "is this abuse or isn't it" seems a bit too cut and dried. Is it abusive enough to justify throwing the groceries in the floor? Of course not. But is it abusive enough to be counterproductive in the relationship? Of course it is.

If he performs every chore this "well" then maybe he's a total screwup and Wilma is better off without him. But if putting up groceries is something he just doesn't get regardless of coaching, but he's fine with mowing and painting or whatever, make adjustments.

CYD

[amazona]

28. this is not verbal abuse

Fred is passive aggressive. Putting all of the groceries, even the stuff that belongs in fridge or freezer, in one cupboard to hit someone on the head? He has a problem, definitely. I can't blame her for yelling once in a while but I have to admit that I would have walked out on Fred long ago. She must have the patience of a saint. Passive aggressives can't be lived with. Period. End of sentence. Fred can expect and deserves a lonely old age if he doesn't modify his behavior.

Everyone yells once in awhile. Sheesh.

[ScreamingMeemie]

30. While it isn't a very nice way to handle one's spouse, I don't know if I

would call it verbal abuse. Maybe extreme nagging. Possibly Wilma just got to a breaking point, and didn't respond well. Possibly Fred likes to get a rise out of Wilma. I think if she had taken it a couple of steps further, such as saying," I don't know why I ever married and idiot like you" or some other such putdown, then I would label it abuse. But it's not very sweet.

[Droopy]

31. I don't think this is abuse

It just sounds like she's frustrated with her husband for not responding to her. He probably feels like she's leaning on him too much. I think the best thing for her to do is ask him why he doesn't respond when she asks him to do something. If she can't get a response it may be time for some counseling. I know that sounds serious, but it might save your friend's marriage. It's about small things now, but it's only going to get worse.

[NightTrain]

34. Wilma could've been a lot less petulant about it...

...but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "verbal abuse." It wasn't liked she called him "stupid," "retard," or "dumbass." Unless there's something you left out...?

[SOteric]

37. Nope. Nothing I left out.

She seemed quite sincerely distressed, and relayed the facts as evenly as she could. She acknowledge that she was "harsh and irritated" in tone.

She also insists that she has asked Fred nicely, in an assortment of different times and different ways to not put the groceries away in that manner, or that he just leave them for her to do. He does them anyway, and he does them in a way that isn't helpful.

But Wilma assures me there was no direct personal insult. She cursed and in a very 'fed up' tone asked him why he had to always do it that way.

The more I read and reflect on this, the less I'm thinking it's anything I'd classify as abuse.

[dofus]

35. He puts everything

in one cupboard, including stuff that belongs in the refrigerator????

Is he severely ADD? Perhaps downright autistic? Does he do this because Wilma is a nag?

His putting away groceries pattern goes beyond deserving of verbal abuse. Not that I'd actually characterize her behavior as abuse, exactly. There are underlying fundamental problems that need to be addressed, and I'm not so sure this is a marriage that can be saved.

If MY spousal unit put stuff that belonged in the refrigerator in the cupboard, if he crammed everything into one place so that the next person that opened the door got fifty pounds of canned goods and rotting meat falling down, I'd leave him. Or have him move out.

I'm crazed by my husband's inablitity to remember where dishes go when he's emptying the dishwasher, and we've lived here for 13 years and I've never once re-arranged the cupboards, but at least he puts stuff in the refrigerator that belong there.

(Walks away, shaking her head in disbelief at Fred and Wilma)

[FlaGranny]

60. I can relate to that dishwasher stuff.

My SO after 30+ years, still does not understand that teaspoons and soup spoons do not get put into the same compartment in the drawer. I have long ago learned to ignore some stuff and re-do it myself later. At least he pitches in and does things and/or helps out, so I've learned not to get upset that it isn't "right." He just has his own way of doing things. S'okay.

[JVS]

38. Were you actually there?

Yelling at someone with other people present is extremely inconsiderate. This might qualify as verbal abuse because the fact that it isn't said privately adds humiliation that would be the equivalent of much harsher words said in private.

[SOteric]

39. No, they were alone

Wilma and I had coffee today and she told me about it then.

[stoner_guy]

40. Shrewish definintely

I wouldn't say that it rises to the level of verbal abuse. It certainly isn't a very effective way to communicate. Having been Wilma'd a few times, I would say that the chance of her getting a favorable response to those type of comments is zip.

[bleedingheart]

41. I don't like it when people yell at spouses in public or when

they have company.

[SOteric]

42. That didn't happen in this case.

And I'm really only asking for people's opinions about whether this is verbal abuse. Or whether verbal abuse requires more than Wilma's response.

[bloom]

44. " later accusing her of verbal abuse"

I think he is trying to make her out to be worse than she is - turn the tables - make her feel guilty. He probably thinks he is dang saint.

[Julien Sorel]

45. It looks to me like she broke the first rule of relationship

communication: thou shalt not nag. It starts a downward spiral. As soon as I realize the woman is prone to nagging, she's gone -- I won't take it, and I won't bother playing games like 'Fred.' For whatever reason, he does.

He leaves the checkbook in the front seat of his car (I do it too, also I have an emergency credit card I leave in it), and he piles groceries in the same area of the cupboard. THE HORROR!!!!!

There's obviously far more going on here, but her nagging is covering up the problem, not contributing to ending it.

[SOteric]

48. The question isn't who's right or wrong

and I'm not interested in opinions on how to interfer with or provide unsolicited advice to my friend's marriage.

I'm only interested in knowing whether people think this qualifies as 'verbal abuse.'

But for the record, I don't believe she is a nag. I think you're incredibly poor at reading comprehension.

I'd add that leaving your chequebook and your credit card in the front seat of your car is amazingly stupid. "Fred and Wilma's" car was broken into last year and the theives took Fred's chequebook and wrote cheques all over town on their account. It took them the better part of a year to straighten out the damage to their accounts, their reputations and their credit rating.

[supernova]

46. She seems a bit controlling and he's passive-agressive

She could learn to live with his quirks, none of which appear to be life-threatening.

At the same time, he could learn to pay attention, if only to please her.

[REP]

47. He's a Passive-Aggressive Ass

and she's frustrated by trying to deal with him as though he's a normal human being. HE'S abusive - not her.

[regularguy]

49. Definitely not Abuse. Wilma's simply an asshole.

.

[leftofthedial]

50. "goddam it you maggot . . .

. . . you worthless lowlife slime of a creature. I don't know why we even let you stay here. Stop wasting our time with your worthless questions and opinions."

is pretty much the line, I think.

Unless you want to get into the whole passive-aggressive thing, which is a far more common verbal abuse technique. It is very difficult to define in generic terms though.

[ArkDem]

52. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....

...

[buddhamama]

53. i don't think she was being verbally abusive

she was annoyed,frustrated maybe had a bad day too, and may have let her feelings get the better of her but abusive? unfortunate,yes abusive,no.

unless,of course, she has a habit of yelling or reacting this way, then he might have a point.

[SaveABug]

54. Not

Fred should learn to become more responsive to requests, and could then make requests of his own. Two people in one house means compromises are made for the sake of harmony. Withdrawing or simply not acknowledging a request is a form of emotional abuse if used on a regular basis.

[Bushknew]

55. This is VERY important life stuff / Fred is at fault

For what ever reason, putting groceries on the cupboard is an issue with Wilma and Fred has ignored it.

In her frustration, she has to curse Fred to pay attention to this issue.

Debating whether or not putting groceries on the cupboard is a big deal is not the point.

The point is that it is an issue with Wilma and they both need to find a solution that will avoid that confrontation from happen again.

This is very important life stuff because many of these little things over time can really
make the company of that other person unbearable.

Lack of communication and attention can ruin any close relationship.

Some people donÕt have the awareness and/or tact to MAINTAIN a close relationship.

People who have good relationship skills donÕt curse their loved ones in public; however,
if that other person is not paying attention to what is pissing you off, cursing is fair
game in private.

Bottom line is, if you want to keep living with that person you have to avoid their pet peeves, not matter how ridiculous you think they are.

[Blue_Chill]

57. It's not verbal abuse but she needs to control her temper

If she yelled at me for doing that shit I'd do it EVERY DAMN TIME. Adults are NOT children and do not respond well to being treated as such.

If you want your spouse to change be patient and honest. Otherwise they are well within their right to ignore your obnoxious ass.

[dpbrown]

58. No more than Fred's passive-aggressive

He knows what pisses her off, and does it anyway. She should be careful not to berate him in public, but he should be more sensitive.

[sandnsea]

59. oh lord, Wilma's married to a MAN!!!

And Fred's married to a WOMAN!!!

This is marriage. When my husband puts all the groceries in one cupboard, I call him a stupid idiot. How many times do you really have to ask, ask, ask, tell, tell, tell, yell, yell, yell, until somebody puts the jelly in the frig and the toilet paper on the holder and the underwear in the hamper?

People are the way they are. Fred should stop putting the groceries away and help Wilma in some other way. Wilma should know she's going to have to rearrange the groceries if Fred decides to be 'helpful'.

Accept the things you cannot change and go out for dinner.