On finally seeing Bowling For Columbine last night...

[vi5]

Some thoughts:

-People who complain about this movie point to the same 1 or 2 short sequences with questionable accuracy. That's all well and good but discounts the fact that it's a 2 hour movie that presents a lot of stuff that IS accurrate.

-I think it's pretty clear that Moore was saying that guns AREN'T the problem, that our culture of fear is the problem. So why all the fuss from gun advocates? He shows that Canada has just as many guns, he clearly grew up around guns and is comfortable with them. So why does this get attacked as an anti-gun movie rather than an anti-Americanculture of fear movie? I'm not a gun person at all and neither is my wife. But if anything this movie showed me that guns AREN'T the problem.

-Moore is a self-aggrandizing jerk at times. If you are viewing him as a documentary filmmaker and this as a documentary there are innumerable flaws in his style and approach and he is at times very sloppy. His way of doing things makes it more entertaining and humorous which I enjoy, but it definitely hurts his case as a "documentary filmmaker" in the technical sense of the word.

-I have to admit to almost feeling sorry for Heston in the movie. I hate the guy and always will. But something about him being nice enough to let the guy into his home, especially when he did seem to be in ill health, and then having him hit him with those questions made me very uncomfortable. I think it was justified given some of the stuff that chuck has pulled and I don't think Moore was out of line. But I do have to admit to feeling pangs of sympathy for him.

[StrongBad]

1. On BFC...

"I think it's pretty clear that Moore was saying that guns AREN'T the problem, that our culture of fear is the problem. So why all the fuss from gun advocates? He shows that Canada has just as many guns, he clearly grew up around guns and is comfortable with them. So why does this get attacked as an anti-gun movie rather than an anti-Americanculture of fear movie? I'm not a gun person at all and neither is my wife. But if anything this movie showed me that guns AREN'T the problem."

Agreed. I was pro-gun before the movie, and remained pro-gun after the movie. As Moore demonstrated, there is something fundamentally wrong with American culture as we are extremely violent in comparison to other industrialized nations. He posits that our "culture of fear" fueled by a hysterical mass media aids and fosteres this violence. Attempting to solve the problem by taking away firearms is in my opinion akin to solely treating the symptom of a disease while ignoring the underlying cause.

[trotsky]

2. Sucks, doesn't it?

I do have to admit to feeling pangs of sympathy for (Heston).

That dang sympathy thing - it's what separates us from conservatives.

[Kbowe]

5. Remember, Heston is an actor...he is always playing a role!

That's what separates phonies from honest people!

[Wcross]

13. Dick Clark

What was that attempt to confront Dick Clark all about? That just showed me that Moore is like a dog chasing his tail. Blame the employer of a mother for her sons problems? Also bringing Lockheed into the mix was confusing- just what did they have to do with the whole thing? He ommited the fact that Harris was on physciatric drugs- why didn't he explore that avenue? I was very disappointed by the film, and the fact that it won best documentary. Surely there was a better canidate for the award!

[Uzybone]

17. He ommited the fact that Harris was on physciatric drugs-

because there are millions of people on physciatric drugs that dont pick up automatic weapons and murder thier classmates in cold blood.

You miss the point of the Dick Clark confrontation: what is the good in a system that forces a single mother to see her 6 yr old 30 mins a day and leave him in the hands of drug dealers all day. What sense does that make? Who does that help? Im sorry but if you have to ride a bus for 2 hours plus a day for minimum wage work, while you son is being de facto raised by drug dealers then something is seriously wrong. He wasnt blaming Clark for the shooting, he just wanted the fat over-fed upper class to see how their money is really made.

Lockheed Martin spends it time making weapons that can and have killed thousands upon thousands. It was just ironic watching the guy wonder what could have caused the violence when there was a huge payload on death right there behind him. We export violence and then act amazed when violence hits us at home, i wonder why?

[Wcross]

24. Yes

"because there are millions of people on physciatric drugs that dont pick up automatic weapons and murder thier classmates in cold blood."

But this kid did. Assume it isn't a factor if you wish, I think it may have been. There have been guns in this country before we were a country. Medicating children with questionable physciatric drugs to make them behave is sort of a new trend. We are having school violence problems unlike we have ever seen before. Before the meds that is. They are handing out Ritalin like candy in our schools today, you don't think there is something wrong with that. Did you know that if you have used ritalin as a child you can not get a commercial pilots license, or join the military? The parents of these two teens didn't take the time to raise them which was also a factor. Also to be fair and balanced, they had no automatic weapons.

"what is the good in a system that forces a single mother to see her 6 yr old 30 mins a day and leave him in the hands of drug dealers all day."

She had been evicted from her apartment, she wasn't forced to leave her kid with crack dealers, she failed to find a better alternative.
Dick Clark resturants provided this woman a job when others within a two hour radius of her home would not. The area in which she lives is the problem, not dick. Better child care programs in her town are needed, rent assistence possibly. The Government ( all of us) failed her, we failed to assist her while she got on her feet. Wouldn't it be awful if nobody could or would hire her?

Lockheed, I will give you that.

[Catherine Vincent]

25. You are 100% correct.

People viewing this dvd has to get the point of all this. But I also was feeling a little sympathy for Heston too. But after I saw it the second time, I really would like to know what he meant when he said about the different cultures in this country now may be the cause of this violence (or something like that). Michael Moore tried to press him on that but Heston completely ignored him. What the phuck did he mean??

[searchingforlight]

3. We watched it last night too and agree with your assessments.

I found it entertaining and thought provoking. I wonder if the pity for Heston isn't in retrospect knowing that he has alzhiemers. I do agree that he is old and infirm and did allow Moore in to see him. BUT he wasn't too old and infirm to speak at those rally's and was unapproachable behind the podium. Maybe he was being used but I think it would be impossible for him to not have known about both of the killings, Columbine and the little girl. He must read the papers.

[Skittles]

4. pangs of sympathy

for that disgusting piece of garbage NRA whore Heston? PLEASE, f***ing SAVE IT.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. No pangs of sympathy here.....

I am a gun owner and support the rights of people to own firearms (within reason), but the way he paraded himself around for the NRA and had to carry a gun for interviews and such pretty much solidified the idea that Heston was fucking nutcase long before his announcement of having alzheimer's disease. Besides, at the time of the interview, it is highly unlikely that Heston's illness had progressed very far anyway. He was certainly well enough to make some rather racist remarks about how we needed guns because we had a diverse population, wasn't he?

[blondeatlast]

15. No sympathy here, either.

Gotta agree--he was in Tucson the week after several students and faculty were killed at UA during a shooting rampage by a disgruntled ex-student, AND HE USED THE INCIDENT IN HIS SPEECH even though several victims and relatives pled with him to stay away and at least not refer to the matter.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. As a huge fan of Roger & Me and TV Nation

not to mention Canadian Bacon, I thought Bowling was rather weak.

[ClassWarrior]

8. In the late 60's, early 70's...

...there was a movement called "The New Journalism," championed by folks like Tom Wolfe and Hunter S. Thompson, in which the reporter inserted himself into the story (the theory being that to omit himself only tells part of the story).

Under that standard, now a rather common form, Moore is the consummate documentarian.


And if Heston doesn't read the papers, he was irresponsible to accept the position with the NRA.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

11. hi ClassWarrior

I'm a huge HST fans too, but I'm saying hi because I like your name.

[newyawker99]

26. Hi ClassWarrior!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Romulus]

9. "anti-gun" is what the anti-gun-owner crowd calls BFC

Like Liberal Veteran, I saw BFC and drew the same conclusions. I just got angry when the Brady Campaign began pushing BFC as a great critique of "American gun culture":

http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=450
We are very pleased that Michael Moore’s Bowling for Columbine is receiving the acclaim it deserves. The news is the latest success for Michael, whose film explores gun ownership and gun violence in the United States. The film presents to millions of Americans the horrors of gun violence and the destructive attitude within the NRA. His hard-hitting film inspires dialogue and activism across the nation on gun violence prevention.

And the nomination helps focus much needed attention on an issue that the NRA wants legislators to ignore.

From the Columbine High School security camera tapes to the cartoon skit representing the history of guns in America, Bowling for Columbine entertains, educates, and energizes. Michael’s candid interviews with gun enthusiasts and with the NRA’s Charlton Heston illuminates how far we have to go to reach our vision of an America free from gun violence.

[Barney Gumble]

10. The bank scene was fake! The bank scene was fake!

Notice how that meme has disappeared from the rightosphere since the DVD came out last week?

[Deja Q]

18. Was it a movie dramatization or was it a media relevation?

From what I've been reading, it's a revelation and not a dramatized venture.

I hadn't opened the disc yet, but it's going back.

I want documentaries to be real.

[donotpassgo]

22. You ever see the THIN BLUE LINE

much of the circumstances were recreated...All documentaries are subjective (where you put the Camera, what facts you CHOOSE to present) what matters are the ideas and questions you bring up.

[Aristus]

12. No sympathy for Heston here.

He's a gun-worshipping asshole. When someone brings me the news that he's dead, my first question will be: "Did someone take the gun?"

"Bowling For Columbine" was an amazing film. I'm watching the Special Features right now.

[CanuckAmok]

19. here here (or is is "hear hear"--I can never remember)

I'm a pretty tolerant guy, but Fuck Charleton Heston.

His uneducated and prejudiced ramblings have sold more guns than Remington could have.

And, it's the height of RW hypocriscy to criticize the "Hollywood Bunch" for usung their celebrity to forward their causes, while commending Heston for the very same thing.

Oh, look at how much he knows about how "real Americans" live, as viewed from the safety of his multimillion dollar Hollywood gated community.

Screw him, I'll be glad when he finally dies.

And I am being very very kind.

[solinvictus]

14. Bowling

I watched it this weekend and am a fan of Michael Moore. I honestly don't understand Moore's involvement of Lockheed/Martin in the movie. He was right about showing the media's tendency to stir up fear, whether rational or irrational. I didn't perceive the film to be anti-gun.

[toddzilla]

16. i thought

the lockheed thing was interesting.. that PR guy talking about community and all that crap while a gigantic nuke hangs in the background.. i saw it as an illustration of just how far out of whack society's priorities are..

[slackmaster]

20. The Lockheed plant had NOTHING to do with weapons

That plant makes only communications satellite launch vehicles.

There's no way in Hell the manager of a plant that produces missiles for the DoD would let Moore within a quarter mile of a weapon assembly line.

[CanuckAmok]

21. Sure...

"That plant makes only communications satellite launch vehicles."


I dunno, but even if that were the case, I can see L/M being a good site for that kind of documentary. Even if the company is presently only making non-defense related equipment (which I find highly doubtful), there's no doubt that Lockheed Martin have made their fortune(s) by trading in fear and death.

[donotpassgo]

23. LOCKHEED MARTIN makes WEAPONS

its irrelevant if that particular payload were ballistics. The satellite that those launch vehicles put up into space WILL be used to spying or targeting at some point or another.

[newyawker99]

27. Congrats solinvictus!! 300 posts

:toast: