To Porn or not to Porn

[mkregel]

I know this is a very touchy issue (no pun intended...yeah right!) amongst us of the progressive ilk. I've heard the arguments on both sides. Personally I'm pro porn, not just beacuse I read it (and yes I do READ porn - nothing better than erotic fiction well written) but also because I'm a strong "marketplace of ideas" 1st ammendment absolutist.

But this goes out to those against porn, who feel it demeans women. In a logically structured argument, how does it demean women?

If you argue that it celebrates the beauty myth and promotes the unattainable "skinny girl" syndrome, you haven't seen much porn. There is porn dedicated to BBW's as well as full figured but overweight types, and the average porn model is much bigger than the average fashion model.

If you argue that the act of disrobing for a camera alone exploits a woman - my question is who's doing the exploiting? Porn models and actresses make big money, and most production companies are woman financed and woman owned. Yes, it is one of the few industries where men make less than women.

OK...your turn...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. What About Gay Porn

Who's exploited by that?

[Uzybone]

2. Straight people

who may turn gay after watching it....j/k

The only thing I wonder about porn is why the AG is currently focused on that issue. What about the terrorists, the anthrax killer and other important issue? Nope porn and weed is what the govt needs to focus on.

edited to add: and I agree, I dont think there is much exploitation of women in porn. Women make more money than men. Women as much as men, if they play thier cards right, can become the head honchos of thier own shit. Women can pick and choose with whom they want to work with on a larger scale than men can.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. The Net Made The Argument Moot Anyway

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

47. "I dont think there is much exploitation of women in porn"

You are living in a fantasy world.

[oustemnow]

102. boy that's a compelling argument

care to back it up?

[Systematic Chaos]

4. Porn actresses do NOT make big money...

...unless they are top names, and then the vast majority of their income comes from dancing in topless or nude clubs, websites or what have you.

That would cover maybe 5% of the girls you see in those movies.

The other 95%? That would be amateurs, who get paid nothing whatsoever, or girls who get minor parts in flicks with the major headliners. Those girls generally get $100 - $200 for a scene, tops.

I'm for porn only in the sense that it gives a legal and safe visual outlet for lonely - and desperate - guys. I truly believe, however, that the women who do it for a living need better compensation and treatment.

[mkregel]

5. Back in college I had an exotic dancer as a roomate

She would pull in an average of $1000 a night in tips, and she only had to work part time to pay for school. She didn't trick on the side, and last I heard she's a lawyer for some firm back east.

I might add, she worked in Salem, Oregon. Not exactly a big money kind of city.

[Systematic Chaos]

7. And here in Vegas?

The girls in the clubs - for the most part - make HUGE money! They have absolutely no need to be in porn flicks.

It's the ones who do porn but can't get into a good club for whatever reason, who are getting the worst of it.

[mkregel]

9. Most porn you're referring to

Is homemade porn, and usually no one makes much money off of that. It's a decent supplement to a woman's income, but nothing to quit the day job for.

[Clete]

13. I had a classmate in college, who did trick, sort of call girl stuff.

She made lots of money as a "party girl" for billionaires. She too is a lawyer today and a firm believer in women's rights.

[mkregel]

17. Hey I wonder if we can

draw a "strippers to lawyers" connection?

I have a theory on that actually. Strippers get to see men at their base form, that of a drooling, primal hairless ape. Once women realize that's what men are, it must be liberating. They realize that they can go out and persuade them to do anything.

[Deja Q]

18. Which brings up two questions:

1. If only everybody were as good looking, then we'd be in a better place? :eyes:

2. Depending on how exotic, will she prosecute herself? :evilgrin:

[amazona]

109. how long ago was that?

Earnings have dropped precipitously in recent years. At least east of the Mississippi. $1,000 a night is a thing of the past for girls who are not "features."

Just because she told you she didn't trick doesn't mean she didn't trick. It is different these days -- really hard to get the money without going further than in days gone by. There are private parties, etc. and maybe she can tell herself she didn't trick but it kind of depends on what "is is," as they say.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I Once Read An Artice In The New Yorker

by Susan Faludi and she demonstrated that female porn actresses make more money than the actors because they are the draw.

Someone can prolly find the link.

And you would be suprised how much porn is consumed by couples.

[WoodrowFan]

51. And you would be suprised how much porn is consumed by couples.

My wife once did a poll at a girls-evening out with coworkers. Every woman there (4 or 5, small group aged from 20-something to 60) used "visual aids" (i.e. erotic movies) with their husbands sometimes, and they all owned a movie or two. I suspect we're talking movies with actual costumes and plots and not cheapo quickies...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

8. One of my friends used to bartend in a popular strip club

and she made way more money than the strippers. She was pulling in more than $3,000 a week in the early '90s.

I think strippers should unionize.

And by the way, with regard to porn, strip clubs, etc., to each his own.

[mark0rama]

96. Strippers unionizing...

"I think strippers should unionize."

That has been attempted (I don't know how successfully) in San Francisco. There's a documentary about it, and I've been meaning to locate it.

It has the pitch-perfect title, "Live Nude Girls Unite".

[VelmaD]

97. I always liked PONY

Prostitutes of New York. Great acronym. Wonder if they're still around.

DV

[WoodrowFan]

106. Look for, the uuunniiooonn label....

Where would they put the union label? A tatoo??

[Clete]

10. I think the sex industry needs to be legalized and regulated.

That means child-porn would be illegal. It means that protections from exploitation should apply to the participants, like the women who work in it. It would also protect the clients from contracting SIDS, just like a restaurant should protect you against food poisoning. In other words, it should insure that the participants are willing and not forced to do anything they don't want to. As long as women are second class citizens, they will be attracted to the money that can be made as models, strippers and prostitutes, so at least they should have legal rights to protect them from the dangers of the industry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I Thought Only Infants Suffered From SIDS

-:)

[Clete]

14. I meant STD's

:-)

[4_Legs_Good]

21. My wife finds it strange that I think...

prostitution should be legal and maids should be outlawed.

Hmmmmm...

david

Kucinich 2004

[CanuckAmok]

33. It is legal and regulated...media is, anyway.

Child porn is illegal, and people are prosecuted not just for bona-fide intended child porn production, but also for shooting a porn scen with an "18" year old who turns out to be 17 and ten months old.

Prostitution--I'm sure that's the arm of the sex trade you're reffering to...yes, indeed, legalize it!

It is basically decriminalized in most parts of Canada. Streetwalking can still get you a bust, but behind-closed-doors prostitution (escorts, callgirls, masseuses, etc) are basically left alone, unless there's reason to believe minors are involved.

We have a friend who is an escort. She's very feminist, and very political. And, oddly enough, she has a law degree and is a CPA but prefers to turn tricks (more money, she says--imagine that!).

She is involved with this organization: http://www.walnet.org/swav/

They are a resource for sex workers--an interesting read if you're curious about the political and legal issues of sex work.

edit+forgot the CPA part

[oustemnow]

103. child porn is already illegal

otherwise, I pretty much agree with your post.

[nostamj]

11. hmmm.... as a published pornographer

and that would be of the gay male variety... obviously there are no victims in fiction. (and the $$$ is pretty good considering)

and there is porn for EVERY (and I do mean EVERY) sexual niche.

do some women and men involved in porn allow themselves to be exploited? of course.

porn (or erotic art) is as old as cave paintings. either it *works* for you or it doesn't.

'doing' porn, like reading or watchin porn, should be a personal decision. i have no doubt that there are abuses within the industry. (there are abuses at Wal-Mart too)

but, the individual always has the right to say NO.

as for AssCrack working to criminalize any sex that doesn't not result in procreation, that's hardly a surprise.

you'll have to take my copy of IDOL COUNTRY from my cold, dead, right hand...

[LeftCoast]

15. Mmmm...Idol Country...A CLASSIC in Gay Porn...

:evilgrin:

[gully]

16. Funny, I have examined this issue as a woman for many years....

Just found this book on the internet about the effects of porn on relationships? I would imagine the issues in the book can translate into non hetero relationships also?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0787901040/ref=ase_inktomi-bkasin-20/103-0770023-2648616?v=glance&s=books

Food for thought? I think there may be an issue with porn destroying intimacy in any relationship?

One review here:

"Brooks's (Texas A&M, psychology) supposition is that men have been given the Penthouse and Playboy centerfolds as a cultural idea of the perfect woman to seek out. Unfortunately, the icon does not usually live up to reality, and the discrepancy can prevent mature male/female interpersonal relations and intimacy. The centerfold syndrome, indoctrinated sometimes subtly, depersonalizes women, perpetuates anatomical falsities, and creates idealized and unreal fantasies about sex and sexuality; in short, it makes women objects of conquest, not people to interact with. The elements of this syndrome include (1) voyeurism (omnipresent images of naked and near-naked women), (2) objectification (women become objects to be observed), (3) need for validation through sexual conquest, (4) trophyism (women's bodies as trophies to be "collected"), and (5) fear of intimacy (insensitivity to emotional needs and issues). Brooks presents discussion in one of his men's groups as an example of the syndrome, goes on to debunk conventional wisdom, then provides some dozen modi operandi for overcoming it (to create harmony in one's sensual, sexual, social, spiritual, and emotional self). Appropriate and recommended for the men's self-help section of public libraries and psychology collections in community and senior college libraries.?Scott Johnson, Meridian Community Coll. Lib., Miss.
Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc."

Food for thought? Perhaps we can read/discuss some different perspectives on the issue?

I also read that most rapists and child victimizers view porn before committing crimes? I'm sure there are a variety of opinions on this?

[mkregel]

20. Good food for thought

I disagree with Gary R. Brooks but good to see some dissent here.

Personally, I tend to think objectification occurs in ANY capitalist society. If our workday can be sold in the marketplace, why not our bodies? Or rather why not images of our bodies?

If you want to get away from objectification - then you will have to throw out bathwater and baby - since that goes hand in hand with a consumer society.

I dunno about child victimizers viewing porn - but to paint it as a cause for child victimization would be wrong. Millions of people view porn every day who don't victimize children.

As for trophyism, again - this is a by-product of capitalism. If everything is for sale and everything has it's price, why would sex be any different?

Fear of intimacy is COMPLETELY unrelated IMO as that stems more from ones parental relationships. I know lots of 'good christian folk' who would NEVER in a million years share their interpersonal side with their spouse, and don't look at porn.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. It doesn't demean the subject of the porn it demeans all women

by reinforcing the objectification of women over all.

That said, people will always have attractions and fantasies..but go to a porn site and look at the names women are called on them and tell me how it uplifts them.

I am NOT anti-porn, but I have known plenty of women who have engaged in stripping or the like. While they DID enjoy the money and even the attention at the time, a serious conversation with them almost always led to issues regarding their self-worth.

Be that as it may, I wouldn't outlaw it. People have a right to make the wrong choices as long as they harm no one else.

[MercutioATC]

23. Look at the MEN'S names...these are "uplifting"?

I think it's only a "self-worth" issue because society says that it's wrong. Sex (either fantasy or reality) is a commodity. We pay landscapers, we pay doctors, we pay actors, we pay psychologists. What's wrong with paying (or accepting) money for a service just because it's sex-related.

Imagine if it WASN'T a "moral issue". Imagine if society accepted the sex industry as it accepts the medical establishment or entertainment industry. Do you think that women would still feel demeaned?

Society will change...it just takes time for tolerance to sink in.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. I think it WASN"T a moral issue for a long time following the 70's

and has only recently become again. The fact of the matter is men aren't sold into sex slavery or the like with the same frequency as are women.

I am not one to moralize sex to a great degree. One's worth must go beyond what one does mechanically with their body.

Find me porn that doesn't cheapen womanhood...and I might change my opinion of it but I really doubt you can.

[mkregel]

27. SLAVERY is immoral

and slavery, the forcing of one to do things against their will, is not the issue here.

And I'm against slavery when it comes to chocolate production (hundreds of children are sold into slavery for the chocolate industry every year) or prostitution or porn.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. Read the article in Roughsatori's link. It says it better than I can

[Character Assassin]

44. That article is about Britain, and is alarmist and sensationalistic

Lola Ferrari is a famous and essentially singular case.

I used to be around the porn business quite frequently when I lived in LA, and stil have many contacts and friends in it. It is not demeaning in any particular way, women play a big part in both production, manangement and distribution now (i.e., Jill Kelly Productions, etc...) and is just now starting to see a resurgence of blue-noses (not implying in any way that you are, of course) in the Feds coming down on them (Extreme Associates).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. I'm not for shutting it down but the fact that women are in executive

roles only means women have learned how to capitalize on exploiting women.

[Character Assassin]

52. And men as well

But so what?

I'm an employer (for the time being). I have employees. I exploit the fact that they have certain skills. My vendors exploit me in terms of my sales levels and vertical markets.

Eveyone gets paid, no one gets hurt and anyone can leave at anytime (barring contract stipulations).

In porn, people seem to harbor this image from the nefarious 1970's, gangsters controlling everything, Linda Lovelace fucking dogs, etc...

It's just not that way anymore, not by a long shot.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Sorry..my employees don't need to get drugged up to do their

job and it is VERY much that way in the porn industry.

[Character Assassin]

56. We disagree. Substantially

Sorry..my employees don't need to get drugged up to do their job and it is VERY much that way in the porn industry.

While there is no doubt that some of the younger crowd overindulges in alcohol and meth, this is the extreme minority.

Drug abusers are liabilities for consistent work, blood tests and lawsuits, the big three for the porn industry.

There is simply no way production and/or distribution could function to the level it does if there were rife, widespread chemical abuse problems.

There aren't.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. Got some facts and stats on the industry?

I'm basing this on what I have observed but i am open to changing my attitude if there are some actual stats...might not change my approval one way or the other but I am open to actual stats.

[Character Assassin]

62. Years of personal observation. There are no stats

What type of porn set were you hanging around that had obvious drug use/abuse going on?

Major production house, amateur, gay, straight, etc...?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. Never was around a porn set and if it is a legitimate industry

as you state then these stats should be available as they are for other industries.

I have (in the past until I declined to take the work) dj'ed for "lifestyle" events which were frequented by porn industry actors. My observations were based on those experiences.

[Character Assassin]

64. So, then, you don't know whether they get 'drugged up' on the set

Yes, it's a legitimate industry, and no, there are no stats available (that I'm aware of) just like there aren't for Sony, Paramount, Fox, etc.... They don't keep them, to my knowledge.

However, extrapolating the actions of a few actors/actresses from events with an admittedly party atmosphere onto the entire population of actors/actresses in the industry while on the job seems, to say the least, wildly inappropriate.

Swingers and porn actors/actresses: two entirely different animals.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. Yes they do..it is how injuries are classified

[Character Assassin]

68. Oh come on....

No, not if there are no injuries incurred, but evidence of drug use/abuse is still there.

You don't have to be injured or cause an injury while fucked up to be obviously impaired and fired.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. So far the only objective source in this conversation is Roughsatori's

article. There have been segments of news magazine programs detailing drug use and abuse in the porn industry. I have no stats. I offered up what I did and you offered up what you did.

I find the industry to be as wholesome to one's health as any occupation where daily invasion of one's body occurs whether it is contact with sperm or contact with airborne viruses such as in a hospital (again an industry with a high level of risk)

I find the industry objectifies women to a far greater degree than men (not that all of hollywood doesn't).

It's fine that we disagree. There appears to be insufficient evidence available for either of us to prove our point.

[Character Assassin]

76. Here, you want the lowdown? The only 'porn journalist' I know is here:

www.lukeford.com

The man pulls no punches, talks about exactly this subject, and a LOT more (racism in porn (who'd athunk it?), various scandals, actors/actresses, death from AIDS, you-name-it).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

77. Thanks I'll check it out later this evening

:hi:

[Character Assassin]

78. Watch out for the naughty pix.

He has probably THE definitive bios of most stars that ever had a name in the biz.

Plus the juicy stuff (other than their work) like who fucked other people business-wise, etc....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. Who doesn't like naughty pics?

[Character Assassin]

81. Not me, I love them. Now, back to work on this little number...

[oustemnow]

105. hehj, I know the guy who does lukeford.com

It's not Luke Ford at this point, but then Luke Ford was a passive/aggressive moralist.

Thye guy who does it now is pretty straight-shooting, but the site is still pretty much tilted toward the sensationalistic.

[oustemnow]

104. any mainstream media coverage of porn, particularly

news-magazine type TV shows, is inevitably slanted toward the sensationalistic. Hell, LA Times Magazine just did a story on the "shocking" lack of regulation of porn re: STD's. They used the one single AIDS example that occurred in the past five years as the basis of their story.

In fact, the actresses and actors of the industry must provide a clean test from the past 30 days before they are allowed to perform. How often does that happen in the non-porn world?

[gully]

36. I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it if....

the people portrayed were 'real' people. I don't like commercialism period. So that could be an issue in and of itself. I hate the glutony of our society at large.

I agree that parenting plays a role in intimacy and sexuality. But, I do think there is a negative effect from viewing porn also. I think women/men become 'parts' instead of people.

Also, I agree that many people look at porn and don't commit crimes. But, I also know many who victimize woman and children do view porn before hand. And, I can't completely shake that personally. :shrug:

[roughsatori]

25. "Gluttons for Porn" by Germaine Greer

I think that pornography should be legal. I do think though, that in many cases it demeans, men, women, creativity, sexuality and the spirit (Which is no reason to ban it).Here is an essay I like regarding porn.

"The spread of pornography into the mainstream is not, as liberal voices argue, a victory for freedom of expression but a poison in our culture - and we develop a taste for it at our peril" snip//

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,6000,372261,00.html

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

46. from the article, "consent"

"In an unfree society, most of the activities called consensual represent the capitulation of the powerless to the demands of the powerful. Power comes in various guises, as money, status, patriarchy, and as emotional invulnerability."

I wish libertarians, both social and economic, could understand this. Capitulation to economic coercion is often disguised as "consent".

[CanuckAmok]

72. Well, duh.

It's just another way to say "we're all prostitutes". Everything in life is a compromise, one way or another. But if someone doesn't "feel" exploited, who are we to say they are?

[Terwilliger]

107. I think porn could be a classy enterprise...

undertaken by women, and communities, as a legitimate business and pursuit...whether prostitution or some pornography.

The problem is, most of the people the the industry appeals to are dirty old men. They like to treat the women like shit (and view them that way) as part of their fantasies. It's unfortunate, but hey, we don't have a problem with capitalism, right?

[rbnyc]

22. I love porn, but I'm selective. (very short answer)

If everyone is involved by choice and having fun, I'm all for it. I find it quite enjoyable.

[LeftCoast]

26. Mmm...is that what the handcuffs are for?

Grrrowl! :D

[Paragon]

28. I myself have been victimized and exploited...

$20 for a couch dance, admission at the door, two-drink minimum?!?

I'm calling my lawyer!

[dutchdemocrat]

29. I think Holland has it sorted out well... pay taxes and control...

Prostitution Status: Prostitution has never been illegal in the Netherlands. Since 1988, it has been officially defined as a legal profession and prostitutes joined the Service Sector Union. They have been required to pay income taxes since 1996. Prostitutes are not registered and are not required to get health checks. Pimping and facilitating prostitution is illegal. This technically applies also to maintaining a brothel ("the Brothel Act"), but this law is not enforced and will probably be changed soon. Brothels advertise openly. Cities can regulate prostitution as they see fit. In practice, they often confine street prostitution to certain parts of town and impose conditions on brothels.

There is an organization of prostitution customers called "Stichting Man & Prostitutie" (formerly KLEP) (Postbus 56, 1000 AB Amsterdam, Tel [phone], 11am - 6pm) and also a "Prostitution Information Centre" (PIC) at Enge Kerksteeg 3 (right in the middle of the red light district, next to the church Oude Kerk), 1012 GV Amsterdam, Tel [phone]. The PIC distributes brochures, answers questions, and teaches seminars to prostitutes, clients, their spouses, tourists, and school classes. All back issues of their brochures are available for sale; some topics include: price info, tips for disabled customers, safe sex infos, tips for female clients and much more. Their goal is to see prostitution fully accepted by society as a professional calling. They are non-profit and accept donations at PIC, ABN-AMRO Bank, rekening nummer 45.89.40.607.




more...


http://www.worldsexguide.org/netherlands.html

[CanuckAmok]

34. There is a downside to the decriminalization, however,

and it's a market flooded with providers. What I heard from a woman I know who's well-versed in the subject, is that the "window girls" in Amsterdam average about $15-20 per hour, because there's so much competition.

[kathee]

30. Well, dang

I couldnt stay away from THIS thread, now could I?

I read the thread fast, but I didnt notice anyone talking about web cams on the net.Someone,in the privacy of their home, making great money. No, I dont do that, I just do the phone sex. I dont do it because it is much easier to pick up the phone and dominate a man at the same price most girls have to do a cam show. I have FUN!

Some of these girls are my friends, and love doing it. The great thing about this is that if a guy is a jerk, they can hang up. The shows are private-one on one.

So, I guess although I dont want to do the cam myself, I consider myself pro-choice in this industry. If a request for anything illegal comes up, the guy is turned in. And blocked. Id rather sit in my sweats, no makeup, than to get all dolled up for a guy.

And believe me, there's room for everyone! Straight/gay men make great money domming sub men. BBWs, Older women, women of every race and background. Every fetish catered to(legal, of course)Trust me, most of these companies enforce it, and if you are caught talking abut illegal anything, you are fired. And the customer is banned as well.

I can work whenever I want to, charge what I want to, hang up on whomever I want to. Im anonymous, and dont have to pay a sitter or gas.

So, I consider myself an actress, a darn good one! and I run it like a business.I pay my taxes, too. Im glad I have a choice.

[TrogL]

31. Just read somewhere

Men who wank 5 times a week have a lower rate of cancer. I'd be surprised (pleasantly) to find a partner capable of that. Wierdly enough, it's only wanking (British article) that works. Apparently it cleans things out.

Sometimes you need a bit of inspiration.

[sendero]

99. I'm betting...

... that is isn't "wanking" 5 times a week that is a benefit, it is ejaculating 5 times a week. Keep things moving as it were.

I'd prefer to have real sex, I'm pretty sure it is just as good for you :)

[angka]

35. porn is fine, but

if you're actually getting some and it's good, there's really no need for it.

[MissMillie]

37. How would you feel if....

It were your sister posing nude? Your daughter? Your mother?

If you'd still be okay w/ it, then please, by all means, then I would consider it fair of you to defend porn.

[CanuckAmok]

38. I would be fine with that.

I don't make my decisions about how an individual uses her/his body based on emotional attachment.

I wouldn't say "I'm pro-choice but don't support my sister's/daughter's right to abort" either.

[WoodrowFan]

48. I'd be horrified, but

I'd be horrified if my wife got an abortion, but I don't want to outlaw it. The reaction of seeing family member slike that would, it seems to me, be based on deep-seated incest taboos more than anything else.

[barbaraann]

39. Porn is joyless.

Joy comes from empathy and a loving connection with another human soul and it is deeply satisfying. Porn promises satisfaction but never delivers--that's why there's so much of it and why men (mostly) can become addicted to it.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. I Think It's Boring

See one, see 'em all. Tedious stuff. Just does nothing for me, and i'm not ashamed to say that.
The Professor

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

98. Don't tell that to

Porno Jim!. He would just say you're not watching the right porn. Sorry. Shameless plug. This guy is my cousin. Really nice guy. So is his girlfriend.

*Editted because I used "<" those in the hyperlinks.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

41. Porn and Pot

Hey, we're all social libertarians here. Porn and pot should be legal. Now let's stop pretending that vices, because they aren't the worst things in the world, are somehow good.

Smoking a joint isn't going to kill you. Smoking pot everyday is going to really screw up your health. Wanking to a porno is not going to destroy your sex life. Being a porn hound is going to affect your relationships, whether you want to believe it or not.

Please, no BS about women making lots of money in the sex business. The ones that do are the exceptions to the rule. When we start importing poor women from third world countries in order to drive the prices of prostitution down, it will get worse. H1-B visas for hookers anyone?

What's sad is that the sex industry has actually convinced otherwise liberal-minded people that it's somehow liberating, ignoring thousands of years of history.

What's even worse is that some man is going to give some woman money, have sex with her, and pretend that what took place is just a business transaction, nothing more. Talk about objectification.

[gully]

42. Nice post!

B-)

[MiltonLeBerle]

53. How so?

"...Smoking pot everyday is going to really screw up your health."

How do you figure? If I smoke a joint or two every day, and also eat a very healthy diet, and exercise- including swimming and bicyling- How would the daily pot use "really screw up my health"?

Broad generalizations just don't work.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

54. marijuana smoke contains carcinogens

It's not healthy to inhale smoke, and daily smoking of anything greatly increases your chances of getting cancers of various kinds. Surely you're not arguing otherwise?

[MiltonLeBerle]

57. But what about using a vaporizor, or cooking with it?

Cigarettes contain a myriad of man-added chemicals, including formaldyhyde. Nicotine, present in cigarettes but not pot, acts as a vascular constrictor. Pot on the other hand, acts as a bronchial dilator, and is even used(smoked) by some asmthics to help with their breathing.

BTW- There has never been shown to be any link between pot and cancer, and a daily cup of coffee does more harm to your body than a daily joint.(even moreso if you add refined sugar to your java.)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

69. pot brownies are relatively harmless

as far as I know. I'll tell you what, go to your doctor, and ask her what the health risks are for daily marijuana smoking. Why would you take health advice from strangers on the internet anyway?

"daily cup of coffee does more harm to your body than a daily joint"

I doubt it.

[MiltonLeBerle]

82. Caffeine is nasty stuff.

Look it up.
Look up refined sugar too.

Then tell me which chemicals in marijuana have which detrimental effects on your health.

[MiltonLeBerle]

58. Meat cooked on a grill contains carcinogens as well.

LOTS of things that people use on a daily basis contain carcinogens- Do you avoid all of them?

[MiltonLeBerle]

59. You made a definitive statement-

You said that daily pot use would "really" screw up your health, so yes, I am arguing otherwise. Plenty of people smoke pot daily with no negative impact on their health.

[Uzybone]

61. where are those liberals...

who somehow believe that porn is liberating and ideal? Your pulling out a strawman here. I dont see anyone advocating that people try an emulate thier relationships after characters in porn movies.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

70. strawman

"I dont see anyone advocating that people try an emulate thier relationships after characters in porn movies."

Neither do I, and I never suggested such a thing. That's your strawman you're arguing with, not me.

If you want to see liberals promoting the sex industry as liberating, go to San Francisco - when I lived there, I heard hundreds of liberals say that, and met people in the industry who said that. They exist.

[KinkyDem]

73. emulate thier relationships after characters in porn movies.

Waves hand franticly...

Me! Me! Me! I do! I do! That one with the guy who had all those cutie women doing all those nasty things to him and each other, that's who I want to be!

[plcdude]

43. well it all depends

I enjoy seeing naked people and watching them do things but there is a line for all of us that crossed makes us feel dirty. Pornography has become the term in order to denigrate all nudity and erotic images, actions and words. We know it when we see it but this is really an individual matter. Kathee has a different standard than others but as long as she is all right with it then that is her business. We tend to stereotype people in this area and really that is impossible. My wife and I will get online sometimes and check out sites and we have different things that attract us but learning them is good and it brings variety to that part of our life. So for the most part to each her/his own is sufficient to control the erotic offerings with of course the constraints mentioned by others such as child and forced pornography.

[DealsGapRider]

45. I watch porn

I like to watch people fucking. Sue me.

[KinkyDem]

49. I like porn a lot

But you maybe could have guesed that!

I look at stills and watch movies sometimes. Sometimes alone, sometimes with my wife sometimes with others.

I find that woman like their porn fairly light, Fantasy Island and that reality TV thing with the people on the island...what's it called. Nothing but sof core porn for women.

Anyone who thinks that ALL women in porn and in the sex industry in general are well taken care of and making tons of money are fools. Then again, people in all walks of life are getting screwed by someone. In Porn you just get to see it all in grafic detail and in close up and in slow motion.

Everyone has choices. Everyone regrets some of those decisions sometimes. That's life. I have known people in the industry, some have loved it, some have hated it, that's life.

[VelmaD]

66. Excuse me...

not all women like their porn "nothing but soft core". I for one am into some fairly hard-core stuff and know lots of other women who are as well.

I've been avoiding chiming in on this thread and it looks like I've caved.

My basic opinion is this. Some porn is degreading to the human spirit and some isn't. If everyone involved looks like they're having a good time then I'm all for porn no matter how kinky whatever they're doing is.

What drives me nuts is the porn where people don't look like they're having fun and consenting to what is being done to them. If the story line involves lack of consent I have a problem, especially if she (or he) says no and then she appears to enjoy getting raped. Drives an ugly stereotype and makes me insane.

The other thing in porn that I think degardes the human spirit is when the actors look bored. Sometimes I think "if I'm ever having sex and I look like that just shoot me because my life is obviously no longer worth living". :-) Sex should be fun people. Porn should be fun.

Just my 2 cents.
Darth Velma

[plcdude]

67. exactly

you "nailed it" we have got to get over this new conservative movement to denigrate and dirtize this area while glamorizing violence as a means of solving problems. So pm me about your favorite sites.

[KinkyDem]

71. No DV, Excuse me...

Like I said, I have found that (and here is maybe the word I missed or should have included) often prefer their porn soft core.

No slite was meant and I am happy to hear of more women who like their porn hardcore.

A/S/L? ;)

[VelmaD]

74. work for it

My A/S/L are easily available here on the board. A girl's gotta make a boy put out some kind of effort ya know. ;-)

Anyway, I didn't figure you meant any slight. Just love to point out when I don't fit inot sweeping generalization. :-) You might also wanta consider that many of the girls who "admitted" that they liked soft core porn weren't 100 percent honest about it. There's still a lot of societal pressure to be a "good girl" and "good girls" don't like porn ya know. *rolls eyes*

So, you're forgiven this time just don't let it happen again or :spank:

DV

[KinkyDem]

80. Work for it...

Hell, It's best if you have to work for it!

The A/S/L thing was a joke...mostly.

I can't send you a msg cause the mods won't let me. Please contact me, I think we have a lot in common.

[VelmaD]

83. Didn't your mama...

ever tell you not to take PMs from strangers? ;-)

Come play with us in the Grotto tonight though. If you liked this thread you'll love it there.

[KinkyDem]

84. the what where?

And it seems that I was restricted not you...but I could be wrong.

[VelmaD]

85. There's some minimum number...

of posts you have to have before the moderators let you use the PM function. No one knows what the magic number is.

As to The Grotto:
It was short bus president's idea originally and I help.

Basically we were highjacking a lot of threads to flirt and he decided we needed a place where we could all be grown-ups and drink and talk about sex and flirt and be a little naughty without accidentally upsetting the prudish.

So, every night around 10ish eastern (sometimes earlier sometimes later) one or the other of us opens the Grotto thread. There are cabana boys and girls and a hot tub and lots of dark corners. There's even a Ball Pit for Leftist Rebel and the other under 18s.

Basically it's just good dirty fun and you're more than welcome to join us tonight.

DV

[TEXASYANKEE]

86. VelmaD beat me to it!!

"Nothing but sof core porn for women."
Wrong. I enjoy just about any porn where the actors seem to be enjoying themselves. And I prefer hard core to soft core -- I want to see ALL of the action!! ;-)

[VelmaD]

87. I'm with ya

What's the point of watching people pretend to have sex when you can watch them actually do it? Give it to me up close and personal baybee.

*snort* You said "VelmaD beat me" *snort*
DV

[plcdude]

88. you can beat me too

of course figuritively speaking

[TEXASYANKEE]

89. Blushing!!

I am seriously blushing!

[plcdude]

91. about what?

it feels good

[VelmaD]

93. and all together now...

repeat after me...if it feels good, do it.

DV

[plcdude]

94. are you?

doing it?

[VelmaD]

95. Not while I'm...

at work...no. *rolls eyes*

[mkregel]

100. I thought the line was

If it feels good, and doesn't hurt anyone, and doesn't spread disease, and doesn't cost too much, and doesn't taste bad, and doesn't involve Barbara Steisand or Wayne Newton, do it...

[VelmaD]

90. Down boy!

If it's only figuratively then what's the point? ;-)

DV

[plcdude]

92. you're right

have to take care of that wish you were here

[Cheswick2.0]

101. porn sucks

:+

But seriously, It does demean women. That doesn't mean I think we can or should outlaw it. People have their issues to work out. As long as we are protecting children from it,and making sure women are not forced into it for economic reasons, I don't really care.

[amazona]

108. not big money

Porn is fine, I've enjoyed it, I even may have...hmmm...known a friend of a friend of a friend who modeled for a porn magazine.

But porn is not big money except for the very top stars and features. And I'm not sure if "most" production companies are woman owned. A friend is a producer for a pretty big one, but she is not the owner although I'm guessing most people think she is. There is a straight male investor who is actually the owner. He's a nice guy, not hung up, they do a lot of gay porn, etc. but he is still the ultimate owner. I had the impression this is often the case.

What I've noticed is that, with the internet or maybe with more social acceptance, it is tougher and tougher to make good money in the sex industry without going all the way. A woman used to be able to make good money just taking off her clothes in a strip bar. Now she's getting a fraction of what she used to get and everyone has their hands out to be "tipped out." The only women who can really expect to make good money have to do it all -- strip (which can mean traveling around), modeling (which if you lose your rights to your pix means your pix float around forever but you get paid once), and act in the videos. It seems anymore you can't really draw a line and expect to make a decent income by stripping if you don't wish to actually fuck guys or other girls on videotape for money. I'm not saying it's necessarily exploitation, but I'm saying that the "good money" is mostly not there for the average girl.


There is NO way men are making less in this industry than women. The men are owners like Hefner, Flynt, Mavety, etc. The workers (female and male) get a fractions of what these men get. It was ever thus...in any business...