It's almost time for deer hunting here in Tx !

[bearfan454]

Nov. 1st is the first Saturday in Nov this year. I can't wait. The deer meat is superb. I have most of it processed into hard salami and 50-50 spicy smoked sausage. My wife says it is the ultimate control situation. I guess it is since you decide which deer you want to kill. I can't wait.

[Upfront]

1. Bow Season In michigan

Oct 1 starts bow season here in Michigan. I enjoy it more every year. Great time to be outdoors. :toast: :toast:

[bearfan454]

9. Have you killed with a bow ?

A buddy of mine keeps trying to talk me into getting a bow. He has bow hunted for 7 years and never killed one. He says it is way more challenging. Well I deer hunt to kill deer and get the meat. If I wanted more challenging I would rifle hunt blindfolded.

[Upfront]

51. I have

It is harder to do using a bow, but fun. I rifle hunt also, and we do like the meat.

[papau]

2. I agree - Vermont has French resturants that'll prepare some great

dishes.

Indeed there is a muzzle loader season, a bow and arrow season, and since NH's season adds a few more days - one can hunt for a while.

What I once liked was watching newbe's pull a 120 pound deer to their car/truck because they did not know how to cut it up for the meat - and THEN walk out of the woods!

Given my current mobility I am only good for Vermonts "shoot the fish season" - the only state to have such a season! But I'd rather surf cast!

Good luck. :-)

[Born_a_Democrat]

3. I think Ted Nugent just joined the boards

I don't necessarily agree with killing deer when perfectly good meat is available at the Supermarket.

And believe me, I'm no environmentalist but it just seems like if there's no reason to kill the animal (there being food just a walk or a drive away) the fact that it is being killed feels more like it's being done for sport...


Of course the other side of the coin is that most people FISH for sport when there is perfectly good fish at the market...

Point being : I don't think Deer should be hunted JUST for sport...food shortage? Excellent, go ahead and hunt...NO food shortage? go to your local Publix or Winn Dixie or Safeway or whatever SuperMarket chain is in your area

[bearfan454]

5. Have you ever tasted deer meat ?

It has absolutely zero cholesterol, no wait, the BP Dr. told me it has the good cholesterol. He said eat all you can. I like to make:

chicken fried steak
fajitas
jerky
sausage - processed by Klein's in Pflugerville Tx
hard salami - processed by Klein's in Pflugerville Tx
tacos
chili
stew
and even hamburgers ! Man is it good !

[Mikimouse]

6. There are advantages to game meats

I have hunted all types of game, and follow the old adage that states : never kill what you won't eat. Venison is better, in my opinion, than beef because venison contains little fat, and no additives (antibiotics, injected materials to increase the package weight, preservatives). It also has much more flavor than beef ever has had. I suggest that most of us who hunt do so for the meat, not the 'thrill' of the kill. I would ask the other hunters at DU though, how many of us perform the old native ritual of thanking the animal for providing us with food?

[bearfan454]

8. I give the animal at least 10 minutes to have it's moment

with God. I do. I am not extremely religious, but I believe every living creature is entitled with it's moment with God when they die. I want the same for me when I go.

[Ilsa]

10. Sometimes we have to thin out our populations.

Seriously. I have been in state parks in Texas where the deer were everywhere, in the road, and getting smaller in size due to high populations and not enough food. Sometimes the state even has a weekend hunt to thin it out.

Venison is tasty btw.

[bearfan454]

11. I hunt in Menard Co.

It is a 5 deer county. 2 bucks and 3 does. They have way too many. They want everyone to take 5. There isn't enough food for all of the ones that survive except year round deer hunter feeders.

[efhmc]

35. What ranch? Our ranch is in McCulloch county. I can't kill anything,

but I am happy to have hunters. They keep us afloat. It's nice to know that there is a visiting liberal within a 50 mile radius. Most of those around us are freaky RWers.

[bearfan454]

85. I am at County Line ranch. I own lot no. 6 out there.

It is only 42 acres but we are surrounded by 1200 acres. It is the old Lopez tract the kids split up and sold after the old man died. It was 5000 acres originally. It was one of the original Spanish land grants. It is 10 miles from Ft. McKavett just off of Morales Lane on 1674. I know you know where that is.

[efhmc]

97. Luckily, we still have our land. It has not gone from the family. Although

the original Wilhelm holdings that it was part of has been divided up many times through the years. (Johanna Wilhelm was my mother-in-law's grandmother.) I allow 200 acres per hunter and there is a buffer zone of several hundred acres around the inhabited houses. Do you own or lease? Do you practise game management and if so how long have you been doing it. Is it a long drive for you to the land?

[bearfan454]

102. It is 192 miles to the deer land.

About 3 1/2 hours with a bathroom break. I own the 42 acres. 6 point or better for now. I have been using antlermax mixed with trophy buck corn 50/50 year round for the last 3 years. It has made a difference in the antlers. I put out salt and apple scented blocks too.

[sugarcookie]

70. I used to be on a lease in Llano

close to Menard. The hubby hunted in Pontotoc. He'd come visit me when it got cold and he need some warming up. Just gettin away and roughing it for awhile is relaxing. Here in the coastal area it harly ever gets very cold. Nothing is more beautiful than seeing snowflakes falling down.

[efhmc]

71. I miss living in Houston but a few flakes are nice. We had some last

winter at the ranch and it was like a dance of light and air. I was enchanted. It did not last but was pretty while it did. (I like all the plants and green of Houston and the rain. I really enoyed that and being close to the ocean in the years that we lived there.)

[sugarcookie]

72. That is what

is so great about your area. It snows, but not to the point of getting snowed in. I remember we had some killer frosts though. I guess sometimes we take for granted what we have here locally. Surfside beach is a about 35 miles from me...and we hardly ever go to the beach. How far is McCullogh County from Llano County?

[efhmc]

73. Well, it's according to how you drive it but if you continue up 29 through

Mason toward Menard, you will get to FM 1311 and if you turn to the north and go about 5.2 miles, you will be at our ranch. We are basically at the corner of the Mason and McCulloch county lines.

[sugarcookie]

77. The lease I

was on was going out of Llano towards Mason...close to the county line. We do get to hunt a little here. We lease land for a few head of cattle and hunt on that. Too many palmettos...lol.

[efhmc]

99. I am not sure what you mean by Palmettoes. Do you mean Yucca?

Palmettoes, as far as I know, do not grow that far north.

[sugarcookie]

108. Sorry I should have been

more clear. I meant here in Brazoria County the palmettos are really bad. At least that is what we call them. I am SE Texas.

[efhmc]

109. Okay, now that makes sense. There are not any palmettos around

here. We have plenty of pricky pear and yucca but no palmettos. Why are they a problem?

[bearfan454]

86. Glad to meet you !

Good luck hunting and be safe. I hope you get your limits.

[MissMillie]

16. Not only for the sake of humans

But for the sake of the deer. If there are too many, and their food is scarce, they come into the towns and eat out of dumpsters, and then die because they ate something poisonous.

[ArkDem]

13. If the deer populations aren't controlled they become

overpopulated and many starve. There aren't enough predators (aside from humans) anymore.

[Skittles]

15. so all you folk who ENJOY KILLING, get your asses down here!!!

perhaps we should also go to ETHIOPIA and control the population there too! You know, else they will STARVE!!!

[ArkDem]

20. Ethopia has white tailed deer?

RIGHT ON!!

[Iris]

22. Skittles, I almost didn't even look at this thread because I knew someone

like you would be taking care of business!

[Skittles]

29. people who ENJOY KILLING

:puke:

and I don't give a FLYING F*** what they do with the corpses

[Character Assassin]

30. Have you considered actually having a point?

It would really take your posts to the next level.

[bearfan454]

31. Sorry you feel that way Skittles.

I feel it is helping to manage the herd and to help hungy people at Hunters for the Hungry provide food for hungry people. Yes, I enjoy it. The taste of deermeat is superb.

[ArkDem]

47. No, it is the equivalent of genocide in Ethiopia.

.

[efhmc]

38. Hey , Hon, here is some info from a person that manages a 7K ranch.

The biggest problem with deer or any other animal overpopulation is a lack of predators. Nature's way is more natural, but definitely still not kind. Because most of the country has been used for domisticated animal herds, the predators were destroyed. Deer were always shot for meat, by the native people and by the "settlers". Never have I heard that there was an overpopulation of deer until humans (farmers and ranchers) began to destroy predators. You're talking to a person that hates killing (except cockroaches and fireants and even then I don't like it) but in order to achieve some balance for the land, there has to be some type of harvesting. We also make much needed revenue from hunting. I'm trying other more natural methods but they are slow going and really don't generate nearly the amoount of revenue for the outgo in expense.(Here is the website for the ranch, if you have folks to send my way:www.calfcreekranch.com.) Also, I hate guns and that macho male attitude toward killing but such is the hand I was dealt. I get to deal with that type of male on a daily basis. Having the power over who stays and who goes, does make it an easier job.

[bearfan454]

87. Thank you efhmc.

A lot of people just don't understand about hunting.

[amazona]

18. and it's even worse than that...

Overpopulations of White-Tailed Deer are destroying the understory and bringing entire ecosystems close to extinction. They eat entire shrubs! After a few decades of this, a forest is effectively extinct, because the plants can't reproduce and the older shrubs and trees will not be replaced. Too many deer is death in slow motion for the entire forest. Our native wildflowers are in real trouble. Once you start looking into it, it gets really scary. Our native wildflowers are being wiped out and replaced with non-natives from Europe and other places.

[curse10]

39. And why is that?

Because ranchers encroach on the land, raising their damn beef, so people who like to eat rotting animal corpses can buy it at the supermarket. Then the ranchers get pissy when natural predators kill their cows-- the same predators that would kill the deer.

The deer controlled their population for hundreds and hundreds of years without the help of man. It's called natural selection. Of course the sick ones die. That's the whole point- it makes the herd stronger. By going out and hunting hunters are actually doing damage-- I sincerely doubt they are looking to kill the sickliest looking deer out there-- so don't give me that bullshit about "controlling the population"

[amazona]

59. not sure how many ranchers are in Pennsylvania...

...one of the hardest-hit areas for White-Tailed Deer destruction of the understory.

It is not a simple topic with simple answers but to choose to allow White-Tailed Deer to roam unchecked is, in many areas, to choose to make many species of wild flowers, shrubs, and eventually, even trees extinct.

My personal bias is toward a rich diversity of species, which means (like it or not) population control of White-Tailed Deer.

[efhmc]

65. Biodiversity is what I am striving hard to achieve and that means

trying to realign all types of things that are out of wack, including prickly pear, mesquite, cedar, feral hogs, loss of grass lands brought about from years of overgrazing and mismanagement which happens by having to make a living even in times of drought and disease and market changes, etc. I am doing this without using chemicals, which are expensive and to my mind, too long lasting and destructive to leave to the next generation. What happens in Pa.? How does one control deer in such crowded areas?

[mrbill]

68. how are deer controlled in crowded areas? that's an easy one

In many cases the local township hires some guy to come out and kill 600 or so deer that are walking in yards and eating shurbry.

Those pesky feral hogs are real bunch of assholes, can't wait until they move to town.

[efhmc]

69. The hunters love to shoot them. They dig up the water holes and will

eat anything and they are very aggressive. Again that is an animal over which there are no controls and can be shot at any time. It is another example of someone introducing an animal for hunting that went out of control and does great damage.

[bearfan454]

88. I will give you that bullshit

I have shot several deer that had peglegs that were chewed off by coyotes, deer that have been wounded the year before and walk in pain constantly with a limp, and stag deer that had their balls ripped off while trying to jump a barbed wire fence. If I see a deer that is hurting and in pain, I kill it to put it out of it's misery. I do. I also shoot freak deer that will reproduce more freak deer with their weak DNA. I try and make the cleanest shot I can where the deer is eating corn one minute and the next minute he or she is in deer heaven. He or she doesn't even know what happened. I would hope that people understand that.

[WillParkinson]

63. Gee, wonder WHY?

Could it be because people wiped them all out, too?

[Bridget Burke]

14. Deer are NOT an endangered species...

There really are too many of them in parts of Texas. Unless we restore the mountain lion, wolf, bear & coyote populations, controlled hunting is necessary.

Personally, I don't care to hunt. But I'm not a vegetarian so I can't get on any moral high horse. I've eaten wild game hunted & prepared by those who know what they're doing & found it delicious, so I'm guilty by association.

[curse10]

40. Then let's restore the natural predators

That's a natural way to control the population.

[efhmc]

42. I allow no shooting of predators on my property and that hasn't made

any difference. The problem is that the large predators are gone, never to return. So you just get coyotes and some bobcats and they probably kill less fawns than fire ants. There are no more wolves or large cats and they are not coming back anytime soon, if ever. We are talking the middle of Texas where there has been kiilig of predators for 100's of years. I won't join the local land "presevation" group that pays a trapper to hunt mostly coyotes by air. I also won't let them fly over my land. I get some really angry neighbors but that's life. Mostly the coyotes control the rabbits.

[bearfan454]

17. Some people hunt for the sport of it and then donate the meat

to the Hunters for the Hungry. They have fun and then hungry people get to eat. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[newyawker99]

21. Congrats Born_a_Democrat!! 200 posts

:toast:

[DrGonzoLives]

26. How mature

Never mind that most grocery store meat is not top grade, packaged in unsanitary, unsafe meat-packing plants, never mind that the animals are painfully and brutally slaughtered...no, go to the store and buy your meat! :eyes:

[curse10]

41. Then don't eat meat at all if that's what you are worried about

You don't think the animals suffer when it's shot down or bowed down by a hunter?

[bearfan454]

89. Sorry DrGonzo but

poor homeless people that eat at shelters with meat donated by hungers for the hungry don't have money to go to the store and buy their meat. You know the Bush economy has made a lot of people poor.

[Township75]

34. This makes no fucking sense at all...

if I interpret what you just wrote correctly, you are saying you don't like hunting because it kills more animals than are necessary due to meat being available at the market.

There is WAY more meat available at the market than what is necessary to begin with, and when you buy meat there you support the "over production" of meat.

It's not easy to shoot more deer than what you need...good Lord, just shooting one is tough enough. Talk to peopel who work at a slaughterhouse sometime that sell their meat to supermarkets and it may change your opinion.

[luckyluke]

45. On the contrary, hunting is more moral than buying meat

An animal that is hunted lives free in the wilderness till the day it dies.

An animal that is bred for meat lives in small cages for most of its life, is fed an unnatural diet, pumped full of hormones and antibiotics, deprived of exercise and subjected to stress all its life.

I am a vegetarian myself but I have much more respect for hunters than for people who buy meat in supermarkets.

-ll

[bearfan454]

90. Darn good point luckyluke.

The deer can do whatever they want. I feed at least 200 deer year round and kill 5 a year. Is that greedy ? I don't think so.

[Rabrrrrrr]

113. Do you have a clue?

What a load of misinformed idiocy that post is.

Do you think meat in the supermarket just appears there out of the aether? No, animals are killed to provide it. Whether you buy it or hunt it, an animal had to die. And the animals that end up in supermarkets are often kept in unsanitary cnoditions, loaded up with antibiotics and steroids, and who knows what conditions they were slaughtered under.

I have always laughed - and heartily - at morans who are meat eaters, but who take a BS holier-than-thou anti-hunting attitude because "meat is available at the store". Yep, all wrapped up in shiny plastic and styrofoam so you can eat it pleasantly without thinking of all the nastiness of the shot to the head, the blood, the saws, the cutting and sawing...

Oh yeah, sure - way more moral to have no idea where it comes from, how much land and food is wasted raising the animals, and and then wrap it up in petroleum products.

What total idiocy. I laugh. HA HA!!

[efhmc]

115. I think the organic vegans are the only ones that can win this argument.

But you make a good point about the meat at the supermarket. If you can afford it and find it, buy grass fed, certified organic meat The cattle are raised and killed under the most humane condiions possible. If being raised to be killed for a meat source can ever be considered humane.

[Rabrrrrrr]

117. Absolutely true about the vegans -

if they make the argument, I'm totally accepting. Though they wouldn't make that particular idiot argument ("get your meat at the supermarket"), they'd say, more rightly, "Don't eat meat". I am a meat eater, but I'm totally accepting of the vegans and vegetarians and octo-lacto-neo-vegepatriots, etc.

Though in terms of deer, I have a feeling that, even if the entire US were vegetarian, and we eliminated all livestock, we'd still be killing deer, since we've encroached on their territory, and also eliminated many of their predators.

There is some wonderful organic beef that comes from Australia that we can get here in NYC. Can't think of the name, but it's TASTY! and all organic, no medicines, no steroids, etc. Still comes packed in petroleum products, and of course, lots of petrol is wasted in getting it here, but still... well, sometimes I'm not sure what to think.

But I DO know that to be against hunting, but still be a meat eater, is just plain ridiculous.

[efhmc]

119. Whole Foods have organic meats and they come from the Southwest

They are in the butcher case. They include chickens also.

[LoneStarLiberal]

4. I'm Driving from South to West

I made a promise to my dad this season that when we got our first one that we're going to drive from where we hunt (south of San Antonio) to Mertzon out in West Texas (near San Angelo) to get the deer made up properly. We've been talking about this for several years now but due to how far out of the way it is (I and my parents are in North Texas), we've never done it. My dad's health has been poor this last year so we decided it's go time this season.

Good fortune to all the other hunters out there and have a safe season!

[bearfan454]

7. Klein's meats in Pflugerville Tx is the best I have ever had !

He is an old German man. He does it out of his house. He is board of health inspected and approved. If you take it ther I guarantee you it will be the best you have ever had. really. PM me if you want his phone no. and address.............bearfan454

[Born_a_Democrat]

12. My Brother-in-Law hunts Deer in North Carolina

at least once a year. He eats the meat and mounts the head (if it is to his pleasing). I like and get along with him...don't get me wrong I am not a fanatic animal hugger (I'm a carnivore for sure)...Just that I see those hunting shows on TV as I'm flipping channels and it just irritates me to see those backwoods, redneck turds talk about how it's the ultimate thrill to "bag a big buck"....


1. To thin populations (GOOD REASON)

2. To choose to eat the meat because it is healthier (OK)

3. Any legitimate reason NOT being Sport (OK BY ME)



And I hope that those nimrods on TV that do it for sport find themselves at the business end of a 30.06 while running through the woods shitting their pants along the way(ala that movie with...I think it was ICE-T....Surviving the Game)...

[Superfly]

19. Nov 1? Ours starts 4 October!

And I've got my bow all tuned and warmed up. I've got my treestand outside so it can soak up the natural smells, and I've got my location staked out.

I've got 8 tags. How many do you have?

[bearfan454]

23. Here in Tx you can bag

4 turkeys and 5 deer in the county I hunt in. 2 muledeer tags too, but I don't use those. I don't dove hunt because I don't like the way they taste.

[Wickerman]

24. The pop needs thinning

Deer really are rampant in Texas- at least they were out of control 3 years ago when I lived there. I did take exception to how many hunters "cheated". Salt licks and feeding on the lease during the year and building blinds where this "charitable" took place so that they could go in, get their deer early then drink the rest of the day. Its like anything, good and bad folks everywhere, I guess.

[bearfan454]

25. You can feed year round in Tx on your lease. It is legal.

Tx is one of the few states where you are legally allowed to bait them in. If they know your feeder goes off 365 days a year at 6:30 am and 4:20 pm every day, wouldn't you show up there too if you were a deer ?

[Wickerman]

27. sure would, free eats

and, imo, that makes it all so damn wrong - legal or not.

It makes no fucking sense what with the pop so high - why in the heck do you want to contribute to expanding the herd?

[bearfan454]

28. Because I want to see better antlers than the year before

Management is important also. You cannot let freak deer(6 points on one side and 1 point on the other size) rut with other deer and make more freak deer. We all strive toward 8 and 10 point deer all over the place. You have to manage your hunting land.

[fknobbit]

32. Pflugerville

In the late sixties I was stationed at Bergstrom AFB and we drove to Pflugerville during some designated day of the week, thinking fri maybe. There was a place there that resembled a barn and the BBQ was the best in the world. Place was always packed with Law enforcement types and military. Was that Kleins can't remember??

[bearfan454]

36. No that is not it.

[bearfan454]

91. No sure isn't.

Sorry.

[Wickerman]

43. So, help me understand that argument

You feed deer so that they will come to your feeder at a set time. Then, you blast them? And you are doing this to improve the herd? So, given a choice, at your feeder, you are going to shoot the lopsided point buck over the perfectly formed 8 pt buck?

I don't buy it - I've known a lot of hunters and never heard one say that they hunted the sick, the weak, and the malformed - everyone goes after the trophy buck.

[efhmc]

46. We have managed hunting and that is complicated but part of that

idea is that you don't shoot immature bucks unless they are spikes or have some other deformity. That deer still must be tagged, reported and taken. Any hunter not doing so will be thrown off the lease and I keep their money. (I have a manager on the property.) The idea is to build the quality of the herd and that includes getting rid of culls and not shooting any buck less that 8 points. You can believe me when I say that mistakes are made but not more than twice.

[Wickerman]

50. Glad you manage your land sensibly

I still think there is something morally wrong about feeding deer to then kill them and a lot of old hunters I know are disgusted by the tactic. I do, however, agree in salt licks when the times are tough and feeding when other food is not available, but it shouldn't be done in a deer lease area. Kinda like those canned hunts for big game that they used to have in Texas 10 yrs ago or so...

[efhmc]

52. BTY, they still have some variety of those hunts since deer belong to

the state of Texas and are regulated as such but all "exotics" belong to the land owner and are not under any laws. I understand what you are saying about the feeders. I hate the idea of them but I want you to know that many, many time the deer that come openly during the day to feeders are never seen, except at night, during hunting season. Many leases now have guided hunts where one pays a certain amount and is taken to a stand and cannot leave. The price is high and you are not guaranteed a kill. I have to say honestly that hunting saved our family's ranch but if it were up to me I would not have it. All the men in my family and my husband's were hunters and a few of the women. It never offered me any thrill or interest whatsoever. I don't like guns and I certainly could never kill anything. However, to complete the hypocrisy, I do like and will cook and eat the meat.

[Wickerman]

53. I appreciate your honesty and insights

I am not anti-hunting - I recognize the need for herd management and know that populations are generally out of control. I do, however, get a little pissed at those who take the sport out of it - and I use sport without quote marks, even though I personally don't see it.

Those canned hunts really pissed me off. The bottle fed tigers that you could "hunt" just like you were on safari except the difference was that the tiger wasn't coming towards you in a threatening or threatened manner - it thought you had a Scoobey snack for it.

Good luck with your ranch and I know what you mean with the meat - the first thing I ate after a 7 year stint at being a vegetarian was deer jerky...

[efhmc]

55. Thanks for listening, (or whatever you call it, on the board). I wish

those canned hunts could be regulated but without any power, I don't think it is going to happen. At least, they are not as open about them as they used to be. I am sure that they still happen but I don't seem them advertised. Have a good weekend.

[Wickerman]

57. Thanks to you too

keep your head down when those Freepers arrive and start the wild turkey drinking and firing!

[efhmc]

58. One of our strictest rules is no hunting and shooting!!

Another thing that will get your little can out of there really, really fast. But I like to be elsewhere whenever they are there, just in case. Thanks for the good thought.

[efhmc]

61. Should have said while drinking.

It was too late to edit. Makes a little more sense now.

[bearfan454]

92. Well yes the trophy buck is wanted more.

But if I have 5 does and a freak show up that morning I shoot the freak deer

[Wickerman]

118. but if you have 4 bucks show up and the freak buck

you still shoot the freak buck, right?

Hypothetical, I know, you'd never see 5 bucks together. I still don't see it. No one is going to pass up the trophy buck for the freak, so, in effect, you feed the freaks and kill the helthy bucks. That is not effective herd manangement as you ultimately pass on the defects, not hte healthy characteristics.

[efhmc]

122. You don't understand. Basically a spike is a "free" buck. Our hunters

are allowed to shoot only one mature 8 point or better. They want to improve the herd on their lease so it is to their advantage to cull the inferior bucks. Thsi only hapeens when one has controlled hunting and long term hunters that understand and want to improve the herd. There is a count or census done every year at the beginning of the hunt and that count is used to regulate the number of does and bucks that are killed. I wanted to add that seldom or ever do the hunters take all the deer that they are "allowed" by the state since we have a different ratio here.

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. As someone who has never hunted before

I don't quite understand the fascination. Although I could hazard a guess.

I'm related to hunters. I have friends who are hunters. One thing all my hunting colleagues share is a warm, sweet personality that masks a violent underside that has a tendency to "snap" at the wrong moment.

I think the people I know who hunt do so not because they "LOVE" venison and think its the best tasting stuff on earth, but because hunting is fun.

In other words, the actual stalking and killing of the animal is what draws them to the sport. The meat is just kinda like a side bonus.

All the other excuses offered, like controlling the population and respecting the animal itself aren't much more than window dressing. Hunters like to kill things. They want to get their violent rage out in a controlled and legal way.

Some (not all, by any means) would probably hunt humans too, were it legal and socially acceptable. It's the psychology of hunting and hunters.

[luckyluke]

48. Are you a vegetarian?

Why single out hunters? Hunting is better than buying meat at the store, as I mentioned in my other post.

-ll

[blockhead]

81. magic rat

god those are dumb statements

[bearfan454]

94. What about power and control ?

My wife says it is the ultimate control situation. In a way it is. But there is no specific thing that makes it good. It's not the list, the preparation, the supplies, the drive, the camp set up, the baiting out of the feeders, the barbecuing, the beer, the walk to your stand at 5:30 am across cactus, rock, and rattlesnake infested land in the pitch dark, the rush you get when one walks out and you wait, and 2 or 3 more walk out, and the aim, the shot, the quick reload in case another one jumps out from behind a cedar tree, the fall, the tagging, the gutting, the quartering and putting on ice, or leaving the next morning and going back home. It is the whole process that is fun and exciting to millions of people.

[curse10]

37. Yeah!

Let's go out an kill us some poor defenceless animals! Let's all feel like real men! :eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Can ya'll accidentally knock off a few freepers while you're out there?

I have to admit, I am not terribly fond of the "thrill kill" perspective although I do like venison but if it can be used to my advantage then I might be more supportive.

(for anyone about to flame me I am JOKING DAMMIT THE HELL!)

[efhmc]

49. Hon, I have 28 regular hunters and they are all freepers. Some are

actually nice but they are all CONSERVATIVES. It is seems to be the nature of the beast. Some that I have had for several years are at least seeing my point about managing the land a little better as time goes by. Since I make the rules and it is my way or the highway, I guess the clout is on my side.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Your property sounds wonderful

OK maybe a pothole or a distraction so they accidentally shoot themselves in the nuts? :shrug:

[efhmc]

56. Please no, not even those guys. I am an absolute NUT about safety and

I live in fear of someone getting hurt. (BTW, I know you are kidding. I am really paranoid about this.) Lets just take them out at the polls. That will hurt MUCH more.

[Piperay]

60. Yuck....so glad

I live in Los Angeles where none of that goes on (course the only deer we have are in the zoo, but at least no one can shoot them).:eyes: And yes, I am a vegetarian. :-)

[efhmc]

62. It might not go on in LA but California does have deer hunting. At least

that is what I was told when visiting.

[WillParkinson]

64. My favorite argument about hunting...

We need to thin the population...

Meanwhile humans have over 5 BILLION people. Do we thin out those ranks? Do we have an open season on them?

Yes, I know, that's just not how it works. I'm sorry, though, I feel less inclined to be kind to people who hunt. I think that we should have an open season so they can feel what it's like to be frightened, running and then brought down by someone using a gun or bow and arrow.

It's easy for people to distance themselves from other animals because they feel like they are above it all. Meanwhile they think they're doing good things by killing defenseless animals because we've already killed the natural predators, destroyed the lands they live on and someone has to 'help' the animals.

Alright, that's my rant for the evening. Now I'm off to work.

[efhmc]

75. I know you said that you were off to work but I wanted to respond to your

thoughts, which I found very interesting. As I have said so many times here and elsewhere, I hate hunting (I had to stop saying it on the ranch because my foreman's little girl was repeating it to the hunters. Not the best PR.) Anyway, there are hunters and there are hunters. We have worked and struggled to get a decent group of hunters that understand and follow the 75 rules that I have that are necessary for the group of humans we call men. I have had men not take the lease because they could not be "bound" by our rules. Believe you me, I was not unhappy about that. But back to the whole concept of "killing" for sport. I do not now nor will I ever be able understand it. This probably makes me the world's biggest hypocrite. But hunters have kept us from going under and they are here to stay and I use that money to pay debt and to clear land and to give the next generation a chance to make more changes. I hope you had a good night at work and thanks for your thoughts.

[kwolf68]

66. Great thread

Completely loaded with innacurate musings about population control, no natural predation, meat is good, ecological balance and the rest of the pseudo-science hunters selfishly blather away about.

Look...you people hunt and that is what you like to do...thats fine, but quit telling me how much wonder if provides to the ecosystem. Its a lie.

[efhmc]

67. Could you please tell me how many acres you try to control and what

methods you use. I am not being rude. I think from your comments you must have knowledge I could use. Thanks.

[bluestateguy]

74. While I am very pro-gun I dislike hunting

I'm for keeping it legal, but I don't approve of the idea of hunting for "fun".

[efhmc]

76. Hey, how are you? Can you find another way for me to make

about $45,000 a year (minus my foreman's pay) without really doing anything but providing my lands to blood thirsty males? I would love to hear your ideas. Wish I did not need the cash but I inherited lots of debts with the land. (How's the intellectual activity going?)

[EFF BrandyWine]

78. I have to wonder if all the meat is safe...

I read something about a disease akin to mad cow disease that was found in elk and moose populations...is it possible that deer could also carry this disease?

I found venison to be quite good when someone gave us some a long time ago. Now, when I do eat meat I find bison to be equally good. Most of the time we are meatless eaters though.

[efhmc]

80. Good question. There have been cases of this in other states but so

far not here and not in deer. I get bulletins from the Animal Health Department regularly and the main problem in our state for deer seems to be antrax, which is not new and does not convey to humans. (CWD or chronic wasting disease.)

[scucci]

79. While I know deer hunting is necessary ...

to prevent overpopulation and disease. I just don't understand the glee and almost orgasmic fervor some, and I said some, hunters have about killing animals. It's almost psychotic. Like they wish they could do that to humans too.
Killing anything should never be "fun" and allowing the animal to suffer for their "10 minutes with God" is absolutely disgusting. If I read that wrong then my apologies.

I grew up around hunters and dead deer hung from those hunters' garages to "drain".
Like I said, I know it must be done but I question the humanity of those who enjoy it.

[efhmc]

82. It really must have something to do with the primitive nature of men. I

hate to be so sexist but I see very few women doing or enjoying this (and spouces can hunt free on our leases). I will never understand it.

[bearfan454]

96. My wife hates it.

She doesn't even like to hear about it. She hates it when I am at the kitchen sink with a cooler of bloody deer meat to butcher for the next 2 hours. I have to clean up the whole kitchen with bleach after that. No problem.

[efhmc]

100. Now, that's my kind of woman. But that is also an understanding hub

that takes care of his mess. You kill it, you clean it and the surroundings it was in.

[bearfan454]

103. Yes I have to.

On some issues she has more say than me. And other issues I have more say than her. It works for us. You know I have less say then her on certain things.

[efhmc]

105. Sounds like a good balance.

[Maine Mary]

83. And you guys are allowed to hunt on Sunday too!!!

I'm jealous despite the fact that the game is better here :P (just kidding-kind of...) There are only 7 States left that don't allow hunting on Sundays. Maine is one of them. We are the most heavily forested State in the lower 48 and so remote that we are known (at least in the East) as a place to go for what we've got.

But people can't hunt here on Sundays. :wtf: In the 6 other States (not in New England) I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to hunt anyway. They are all; what we Mainers refer to as "Flatlandah States"... full of cities and people.

Anyway, I'm sorry to get off the subject but this issue irritates the hell outta me. I'm a Maine State Rep from NW Maine (very rural). For the past century or so my area has relied on the timber industry to keep us going. And the State of Maine has been VERY generous to these Industry jerks. But now it (the timber industry) is almost gone and people need jobs. All but 1 of the 18 towns and 81 unorganized territories I represent are in terribly dire straits.

My point? This is why we need to get Sunday Hunting here. I know it's not a cure but would make an excellent bandaid. Next door NH always advertises in their brochures to Maine folks that WE CAN HUNT ON SUNDAYS! So everyone goes there. Think about it... If you lived in NY, why the hell would you take your hunting dollar(s) to Maine if you could only have a just Saturday after all of that traveling? It's nuts and I am really sick of it.

That's why I submitted LD 388 which says....


http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/billtexts/LD038801-1.asp

BTW anyone familiar w/government can tell you about fiscal notes. + or - . Usually anything my colleguges beg for COSTS $$$ This bill is a huge exception. It will bring IN a projected 300k annual revenue, and we really could use it.

Again I apologize for interrupting your thread but I am really wrapped up in this. In Maine we have what are called "Joint Standing Comm's" because we are one of the few States that joins both Sens. and Reps togethor. in the comm. legislative process.

I've got our D Gov.... and within the 13 person IF&W comm; I've got all 6 House Dems and 1 Sen Dem. as well as one House R. on my side in regard(s) to my Sunday Hunting Bill. I think I MIGHT be able to pull this off in The House. But it'll be tough in the Senate. Problem is, there are supposed to be 3 Sen's in every comm. and in my comm. it's one D Senate Chair filling a Senate Seat and 2 R's since the Senate's parties are so closely divided. They had to stick the overlap somewhere since the party breakdown in the Maine Senate is so close. :eyes:

Though I don't "get" why, for some stinken reason the R's are fighting me hard on the Sunday hunting thing. IMO this makes for another :wtf: moment. I won't go into too much detail but my bill SHOULD be make all of the private property nuts salivate. THEY get to pick who they want on their land since my bill is very restricted:

1) In the unorganized territories only;
2) Small game only.
3) Property must be licensed as a Sunday Hunt Property by the IF&W Commissioner.
(a) eligibility would require 500 contiguous acres not bordering any sort of park or public land
b) must be open for Sunday Hunting to the public (not just friends or paying guests)

Sunday Hunters would have to apply for and be granted a 12 dollar Sunday Hunt Permit in order to participate

What is wrong w/any of this? If I don't pass this thing I will be so friggen irritated.

[mrbill]

84. no sunday hunting in Maine? WTF?

Got a few questions about Maine. Is hunting marketed though "day hunts" or seasonal leases? What do they hunt in Maine? Is there a Parks & Wildlife Department?

How are the regular hunting liscenses handled? In Texas, the land holder is required to buy a yearly hunting lease license that costs $75 for up to 499 acres and so much for 500-999, etc. The hunter also has to have a permit, more revenue for the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department. Pay big bucks once a year, then no more weaseling by the state.

It appears that what you call small game in Maine, in Texas we call varmits with technically no liscense required.

This one is scary, "3b) must be open for Sunday Hunting to the public (not just friends or paying guests)" Does this mean the landholder has to allow anyone that shows up with $12 and all the other paperwork to hunt? The landowner should have the final call on who hunts on their property.

500 acres is a lot of space, even in Texas, maybe 300?

Keep up the good fight. Wow, blue laws on hunting, file this with fun facts to know and tell.

[efhmc]

101. I wanted to share this with you. I did not receive my notice to purchase

my license for my land. When I finally talked to someone at TP&W. I asked about the fact I had not received a renewal postcard and she said that because of cutbacks they weren't sending them out this year. She also remarked that they (the employees) were not too happy about this. She then quietly gave me an aside that the cost had gone up (from $200 to $240. Quite an increase.). My remark to her was, "Typical republican tactics. They decrease services and increase prices. Can you tell I am a Democrat?" She laughed heartily.

[bearfan454]

104. Funny but not funny too, huh ?

I hate repukes.

[efhmc]

106. Well hunters and nonhunters can all agree on THAT!

[Maine Mary]

121. You need a license for your own land?

To hunt it you mean?

Also, what do people who have no land do? Do they have to PAY someone to use his/her property to hunt? What if the non-landowners can't afford it? What gives Texas landowners the right to deprive other Texans of their OWN game? The way we see things here is that people may own land but EVERYONE owns the wildlife.

My SO and I only own about 10 acres between our 2 properties. But people use what little of it there is to hunt and we wouldn't dream of restricting them. And with the exception of a few people, all of our neighbors with similiar size acreage allow free access too. No, visitors can't spin it up, steal our timber or cause havoc. But they do have the right to hunt it if they want.

[efhmc]

123. The license is to register your land. There are public lands where one

can hunt. Otherwise, no one is allowed to hunt on private land without the owner's written or verbal consent. These folks are not nearly as civilized as the folks in Maine and as I said it is very big business and helps keep many of us afloat.

[Maine Mary]

124. I hadn't thought of that...

You guys out west have alot of publicly owned land. Only 5% of the land here is publicly owned. If that were the only place people could hunt without paying I garantee people here'd be much less civilized! :-)

[efhmc]

125. I wanted to give you this ranch's websie to look at. It is in our

county but about 4.5x the size. (We are 7k.) It is in a type of trust and is run for those institutions by a great couple. Anyway, I wanted you to see the prices for these hunts. We do not have the trophy deer that these guys do but we run a totally different operation. We have hunting groups that are constant and that are responsible for everything themselves. They also pay less ($1600) and get all hunting rights per year for this. Our goal is to achieve this type of trophy deer and we are working toward that ideal.

[efhmc]

126. Here is the site:http://www.fordranchhunting.net/

I guess that would help.

[Maine Mary]

127. 1600 OMG

What are the high prices then? (Sorry, I haven't checked out your site yet. I will in a minute)

I think I understand where you as a landowner are coming from since it's a whole different situation out there. But how is the hunting on public land? Is it comparable to private land hunting in terms of game and access? I would hope that this is not a situation where only the people who can afford it get a quality hunt.

Also, do you guys have "canned hunts"? I think they are awful. Only "flatlandahs" partake in that so-called "sport" here. No self respecting Maine sportsman would do that. Also last year we did away with hunting from aircraft- another dumb out-of-stater thing. They weren't literally shooting from airplanes but where radioing down to their fellows on the ground... "A large Bull Moose, approx. 200 yards north of you on the ridge" When I first heard of people doing this I was thinking NO WAY, somebody's joking here. But it was true. People were actually doing that. :wtf:

[efhmc]

128. There are no canned hunts here and even at places like the Ford

Ranch where it is $2600 for I believe a weekend hunt, there is no guarantee that you will get what you came after. I do not have any idea about the public lands but most people do not like or want to hunt there as the deer are small and there are hunters eveywhere. As I said before, for safety, I allow about 200 acres per gun and I have a buffer zone around the ranch house complex. Mostly I am at my other house when the big shooting starts. You must remember that here, hunters also get to shoot turkey and dove and quail. If you are without means (You would not believe how these guys are always able to come up with the means to hunt.), your best bet is a buddy who will allow you to hunt for a guest fee of $200 and then anything that they shoot comes off of your tag. As I said before, it is a big business and requires a lot of management.

[Maine Mary]

111. No one "markets" deer or any hunts at all

At least not in terms of people paying for land access. There is revenue derived from deer hunting licenses and it all goes to Maine's Inland Fisheries and Wildlife Dept. But in terms of people having to pay to hunt the game THEY own, we have a long tradition of "permissive trespass". We have an old Colonial ordinance here (from about 1630-something) dating back to when Maine used to be part of Mass. Basically it says that citizens own all the wildlife as well as every Lake over 10 acres. Called "The Great Ponds Act" it was designed to prevent the common landowner fiefdoms of Europe. It also says that citizens are allowed to tresspass by foot over any man's land to access wildlife or lakes as long as they do not disturb his "corn or wheat". The ordinance still stands but in recent years the courts have interpreted a man's "corn or wheat" to mean Maine citizens cannot trespass over a person's developed property. They still can, however use any of Maine's plentiful woodlands no matter who owns it. Though encouraged, landowner permission is optional. Most hunters do respect people's "no trespass" or "no hunting" signs and go elsewhere though as to not cause friction.

In N. Maine most land is still owned by people who own acres by the thousands and harvest it for timber therefore most of it is "undeveloped" and accessable. There is about 3.2 million acres of undeveloped woodlands up there where people hunt freely. There would be a huge uproar if the big corporate landowners tried to restrict that access since most of them get tax breaks called "Tree Growth Taxation" courtesy of Maine people. 95% of Maine land is privately owned mostly by these huge landowners.

Anyway, my point is that landowners here don't charge people to access or hunt on their land. (with an exception too complicated to explain right now) Maine hunters are encouraged however to ask permisson of landowners (if they know who they are)

It's mainly those 3.2 million acres I am targeting in my bill as possible Sunday hunt properties since most of them are in the unorganized territories. With my bill though Sunday hunters would have to have a Sunday Hunt permit AND (in a large departure from our current access hunting practices), the landowner would have to apply for and receive permission from the IF&W commissioner to allow their land to be a Sunday hunt property. You are probably thinking, why would they do that if they don't get paid for it? Well, I've been in touch with many of these large landowners and they like the idea for PR reasons. Plus, most of them like hunters as a user group anyway. Hunters are less likely to spin up their land with ATV's and dirt bikes or litter. In fact, having them there would be a deterrent to such activities.

I hope that answers your concern about 3b. No landowner would be FORCED to allow their land to be open to Sunday hunters but could have them there if they want them to be by applying for a Sunday Hunt land permit. Hunters are already freely there the rest of the week during our hunting seasons anyway. This bill would just give landowners an opportunity to generate some goodwill among sportsmen by opening their land all 7 days of the week. A Sunday Hunt application would show that.

As far as your small game question we don't require licenses to hunt "the varmit" :-) either. But this bill would require it for Sunday Hunting (only) in order to get more revenue for IF&W mainly. I chose small game (Rabbit, Partridge and Coyotes) for this bill only because an extra hunting day could conceivably impact the more fragile deer herd. I want to see how this works before even considering large game.

[efhmc]

114. Wow, what a difference. You have no idea what the havoc and shooting

and destruction of property would be if we had those laws areound here. These Texas guys are mosly very uncivilized and would overrun ones property and you would never feel safe. Many rules and the threat of being thrown off the land are the only things that keep these guys in any kind of check. We sign a contract called the right of trespass to hunt.

[efhmc]

95. Good luck. Hunting does provide much needed revenue and in many

ways is pro-land owner since it gives you another source of income. I cannot imagine conservatives who are so pro-land owner rights objecting to this. It is not legally a religious matter and if so could be fought on that basis. Good luck. Has anyone run estimates of increased income to the state and the land owners for this? The small town near the ranch could not exist without hunters. The impact on every business in town is known and appreciated. Economics will often make the case when nothing else does. -

[bearfan454]

98. It needs to pass Maine Mary

It brings in some good revenue. How many deer can you get a year up in Maine ? We can get 5 here but they are smaller than Maine deer.

[Maine Mary]

110. You can get 2 but only in certain areas of Maine

where the deer population is more plentiful. Most of N. Maine has a smaller deer herd due to the harsher climate and timber industry practices. Their cutting techniques upset the balance of the land making for poor deer yards. The Moose on the other hand are thriving in it though.

[Ramsey]

93. I'll never understand

Why people find gunning down a defenseless animal to be entertaining. Grosses me out. I know, you'll use the meat. I'm pretty much a vegetarian, partly becuase of treatment of animals.

[Maine Mary]

112. I personally don't hunt Ramsey.

Even though I sometimes eat the meat (I'm not a big meat eater either) I share your feelings about actually obtaining it myself. I could never do it. Grosses me out too.

However, I (obviously) support others if they wish to do it. I sit on my State's Legislative Inland Fisheries and Wildlife Comm. For all Comm hearings and Worksessions there are usually various Wildlife Biologists present. They serve as our guides in regard to how we formulate our hunting policies. I know that to many, hunting defenseless animals sounds cruel, but in reality it's not. Before man started encrouching on wildlife habitat nature pretty much took care of itself. But things are different now and wildlife (deer for example) often die in much crueler ways then by a gunshot. Like being weakened from starvation in our harsh winters which makes them more vulnerable to being ripped apart by coyotes. I've actually heard deer run by my bedroom window on a cold winter night followed by yipping coyotes; only to snowshoe out and find what's left of it the next day. It's pretty horrific.

By allowing deer hunting we thin out the deer population to levels that generally keep their feeding areas plentiful enough for the ones that remain.

[efhmc]

107. Kerr Wildlife Management Seminar. Don't know if you are still around

but if you have not been to this you should go for sure. We require the leader of each lease to attend. I think that it is still free. If you have a chance to attend you will find it very helpful. Do a search and you will find the site or contact TP&W. Give me a call sometimes when you are out this way. Just got in a few hours ago and it looks like we got some more rain. What a blessing.

[Swede]

116. I havn't hunted in years but when a buddy

gets some jerky or Ukrainian sausage made there's nothing that tops it.

[efhmc]

120. I like your name. Welcome and thanks for your input.