Just bought a Yuschenko-orange scarf

[Us vs Them]

as a symbol of solidarity for all citizens of a Democracy in danger.

It's going to be a long winter.

[JanMichael]

1. I hate to bring this up but both sides are accused of fraud.

And Yuschenko was supported by all sorts of US sponsered campaign manipulations; The same tactics (and some staff) used in Serbia, Venezuela, Georgia, etcetera... How are we when furners meddle in our shit?

[chookie]

4. Yeah, there is a LOT more to this....

I think people are displacing their feelings about the fuzzy US elections onto Yuschenko, who, sadly, ain't exactly what he is officially made up to be in the media. LOTS of questions about this guy, and who exactly is behind him, behind the scenes, in this country. I think people would be surprised when they find out.

Repeat: things ain't quite what they seem in the Ukraine. It's being reported a certain way in the American media for a certain reason -- funny how people throw their skepticism about MSM out the window when a story that comes along strikes an emotional chord within them.

One thing about Yuschenko -- it has been nice to see him confront the disputed results of the election. Gee, stuff like that just doesn't happen in the USA, or, if it does happen, it gets ignored. But maybe he is doing so because he has tricks up his own sleeve, fraud wise, that he is boldly gambling on being accepted.

Maybe there's a reason they are giving so much face time to Yuschenko -- kinda like they did to Judge Roy Moore -- COMPLETELY out of proportion to their importance....

[Us vs Them]

5. Unfortunately, it's not so much the leader

but the citizens who are worthy of the most attention. It is for them such symbols mean the most in desperate times.

[chookie]

8. I don't get your point

Yeah -- it's nice to see people raising their fists over smelly elections, as I am surely going to MOSH in DC in Jan -- but I get a little uneasy when "symbols" are more important than specific leaders. The Ukrainians are just as likely to Meet the New Boss Same as the Old Boss as we have.

[Us vs Them]

12. I have no control over the effectiveness of their leader.

I do, however, have the capability to bring into consciousness the apparent semiotic parallels of solidarity between Ukrainians (who have managed to make their voice known, internationally) and Americans who... well... we're working 'behind the scenes,' aren't we.

[Cheswick2.0]

10. We have to stop looking at everything as if it were about our right wing

It really shouldn't matter if bush got what he wanted or not as long as the Ukrainian people did. Talk to some people in a Ukrainian community. They'll fill you in with some history and you'll understand that they are very bitter about Russia.

[Cheswick2.0]

7. The Ukrainians are thrilled to be free of Russian influence

They hate the Russians. They have a long history of trying to break free from the Russians, particularly after they were forced to be part of the Soviet Union.

[JanMichael]

9. Some are some aren't. My point however has zip to do with feelings.

It has to do with US meddling.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360236,00.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1129-26.htm

[Cheswick2.0]

13. no I am sorry but this time you are wrong

The only people in the Ukraine who aren't happy are the Russians that settled in the eastern part of the country when they were occupied by the Soviet Union.

I live in a Ukrainian community. I sing with Ukrainian people every week. When we are singing in a Ukrainian church or Festival we have to make sure we do not use Russian pronunciation because people would be offended and walk out.

So I really could care less what commondreams or the Guardian think about this. It is selfish of the western leftist movement to take such offense for Russia's sake when the people involved are fighting to remain free from a country they see as a hated oppressor.

[AG78]

17. Doesn't mean

the people won't be screwed either way.

If Yanukovych wins, they get oppressed from the East.

If Yushchenko wins, they get privitized from the West.

The people of Ukraine may want Yushchenko, and if they do, it's their country. Nobody here is stopping them from voting for whoever they want.

All that's being brought up is the fact that if this administraion wants leader X for a democratic Ukraine, there's not a chance that the people get democracy in Ukraine.

You may not want people to look at the situation in Ukraine in terms of our right wing, but it can't be looked at any other way. This administraion doesn't want any rival power to gain strength. They do not want to see Russia expanding whatever power they have left. I don't either, but for vastly different reasons. I don't want to build a global hegemonic empire, but this administraion does. This is the old global geo-strategic game being played again. In that game, the people of any country don't count.

Either way, whatever the Ukrainians get, it's not going to be democracy. Not in that ultra-important geo-political area of the world. Maybe some day, when and if centers of power no longer want to expand and gain more power. But not before that day, if it ever comes.

[chookie]

11. Ah yes, the "terrorist"/"freedom fighter" dichotomy

Gee, imagine if these people were Arabs....

It is disturbing to see the relativism as to who has the right to rebel, and who must be bombed into submission.

The NeoCons hold that Israel has the right of self-defence, but argue that Russia does not, even in the face of horrific Chechen terrorism. Go figure.

There's a lot more to this story....

[Cheswick2.0]

14. Excuse me but that is crap

are you saying I think it is okay to bomb Arabs?
Sometimes the extreme left is just as selfish and prejudiced as the extreme right. Try talking to some Ukrainian people who lived under Soviet Rule and get back to me. This is about them, not about your need to recast the whole world as good or bad based on some meaningless left right continuum.

[Us vs Them]

15. Thank you. This is about the Ukrainian people.

The same people who showed en masse in response to their foul election. The people willing to stand up and shout for the legitimacy of their collective voice.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. The people who still remmeber the man made famin of 1932-33

When the soviets took their grain and supplies and allowed 7 million people to die, to force them into collectivism. The soviets who guarded the borders so that they could not escape and save their families, but rather had to watch their children die of hunger before they succumbed to it themselves.

7 million people, that is more than the number of jews murdered by the Nazis.

[chookie]

19. People taking a stand against bullshit is totally cool!

That is not my point, if I may bother to repeat myself.

I ENVY them. This is how it should be done!

But, saying this, this does not mean that Yushchenko is legitimate. Or means well.

I love fair elections, but am not buying into this simplified story line which has stirred the hearts of so many -- I am giving my brain the final say.

As for you guys -- Hope we don't get fooled again, eh?

Over and out.

[chookie]

18. Is that what I was saying?

No, I did not say you personally want to bomb Arabs. I know you are decent enough to find it abhorent

What I did suggest is that the people up top who are okee-dokee with killing Arabs are inexplicably adamant about Russia "showing restraint" against Chechens. And I am suggesting there are reasons why. Big reasons. There is some pretty clumy geopolitical realignment going on here, that isn't being very well reported. Instead, the media is representing these people as Unquestionable Heroes Who Are The Equivalent Of Our Founding FathersTM. All I am suggesting is that it is a bit, (cough) somewhat more complicated than that.... I am Eastern European, but I guess I have grown so skeptical that I don't allow anyone to play me like a violin....

I love for them to get their independence -- hence my skepticism that Yushchenko is the boy who will deliver it to them. That's my only point.

(BTW my dear, I do know Ukrainians who lived under Soviet oppression. They have a LOT of interesting things to say....such as, there's more to this than people think.)

[Placebo]

2. You're fucked either way in that country.

You're either getting a Russian stooge, or a US stooge.

[Menshevik]

3. where'd you get it?

[Us vs Them]

6. Filene's Basement. n/t