Kurt Cobain is NOT a hero...

[catpower2000]

This weekend, MTV aired the "Greatest 22 bands of all time", chosen by the viewers of MTV2. I'm not even going to get into the fact that Linkin Park was in the top 10. :eyes: I agreed with several of the choices and I liked the commentary they had to go along with the video clips.

Not surprisingly, Nirvana came out #1. I am speculating that the average voter in this poll was between 18-30 and probably more males than females. Nirvana generally tops every list for voters in this genre.

Now, Nirvana was a great and innovative band. They were phenomenal live (especially due to the underappreciated drumming by Dave Grohl) and changed the direction of music for roughly a decade afterward. Cobain was a brilliant songwriter and lyricist. No arguments from me. But that's not why they are consistently voted the best band. They're not THAT good. They top the charts because of Kurt Cobain and the hero worship that accompanies his memory.

But why is he a hero? Because he killed himself, is the obvious answer. Explain to me why we worship people in our culture who give in to their own pain and commit such a selfish act. This man had a child who was so young when he died that she has no memory of her own father. He had a wife who, no matter what you think of her, obviously went even further off the deep end when he died. Like it or not, Cobain had millions of extremely emotional and sensitive adolescents who worshipped him. He shirked all that responsibility and gave in to his demons.

To me, that is the most selfish action he could have taken. Then you've got the effect on other suicidal people out there --"Well, everyone thinks Cobain is a hero--if I kill myself, I'll come out looking like a hero too." It's bullshit.

Kurt wrote songs that expressed the deep emotions of life. Why didn't he know how precious life was? And why didn't he see how hard it is to NOT give in to that pain? THAT would be the hero's path--feeling all that pain and moving forward anyway.

Anyway, I know this is a bit of a ramble, but this hero worship of a man who I think was weak always really bothers me. Your thoughts?

Cat

[Cush]

1. Linkin Park in the Top 10?

Um, whatever. But what do you expect from MTV Viewers?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

2. but.......cortney had him killed???

:-D

[radwriter0555]

30. No.

she didn't.

he opted out and checked himself out of the grocery store, all on his own.

Trust me, she ain't that smart to plan such a perfect murder and make it look like a suicide.

[mlawson]

11. THEY are in the top 10????

:puke:

We would have hooted their whiny asses off the stage, back in the 60s!!!!

[Character Assassin]

18. The difference is Nirvana rocked. Very little in the 60's did.

Decent and innovative (for the time) music back then? Yep.

Somehow somehow an irreducible epiphany in the history of music? Newp.

[Uzybone]

21. Dont you know

only the 60s produced good music. EVERYTHING else is total nonsense! :eyes:

[mlawson]

23. No, no no. I was referring to Linkin Park!

I don't know what we would hav thought about Nirvana back then.

[Kamika]

3. curt cobain my biggest and first love

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:



..Stupid idiot to shoot himself, he was so goddamm gorgeous

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. What was the record company's first clue as they raked in the bucks?

"and I don't have a gun...and I don't have a gun" Who knew? :shrug:

Hero or no hero...Cobain stands out as a symptom of heartless alienation and exploitation of our current pop culture...for no other reason, he should remain in the public eye as a sign of all that is wrong with it.

[supernova]

5. Well, I admire his emotional honesty

That's what drives me to like any artist really. So I admire him up to that point, and leave it go at that.

He obviously was in more pain than anybody at the time knew. And the suits were too busy feeding off him and Nirvana to get a clue. Doesn't appear that Courney knew either. It's a sad fact of life, sometimes artists get pushed over the edge. Same thing happened to Judy Garland.

[Bunny]

6. True Story here.

A guy I grew up with (well, my oldest brother grew up with him, but I knew him) had a 14 yr. old daughter. She killed herself within a few days of when Cobain killed himself. Now you could argue that there were underlying problems that caused her to kill herself - I didn't know her, so I can't say. But her suicide was ostensibly a reaction to Cobain's.

There is an extensive history of suicide among my first and second cousins. I do not claim to understand the level of depression that leads one to kill oneself. But having seen the effects of this on the families of three dead cousins and one nearly-dead cousin, I can say that it must truly be some kind of awful hell. To inflict that on your family is beyond cruel.

Because of this, I used to have nothing but contempt for suicides. I've grown to understand depression a little better, so I guess I'm more forgiving now.

[oustemnow]

47. this is going to sound terrible, bunny

but the juxtaposition of Spongebob jumping in glee and that first paragraph was so bizarre I had to laugh.

Good post, though; sorry to hear about all of the heartbreak that your family has endured.

[Droopy]

7. Cobain is no hero, but I disagree with your take on suicide.

Speaking as a person who has been suicidal, you have to understand the amount of pain that somebody is in to be able to commit an act like that. When you're that depressed, you cannot see any other way out. It is so profound that you lose all of your love. It is not a selfish act, it is a putting yourself out of your misery act. Misery so profound that it is impossible to relate in words. There is another way out, but I found it only after almost going the way of Cobain.

[BuddhaGirl]

35. Thank you for your post, Droopy

I do not see suicide as a selfish act at all.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. but what stopped you droopy?

Did you figure out that you would rather be alive and out of your misery than dead and out of your misery?

[hiphopnation]

8. Nirvana went through five drummers before they got to Grohl.

They were all better than him too, IMHO.

But who are you to bestow such sanctimonious, judgmental claptrap anyway? Phil Ochs, Virginia Woolf, van Gogh; were all these artists weak? Guess what, they all committed suicide.

Maybe if you tried to pull away from the very surreal and fake world that MTV creates for people (like Kurt would have wanted you to) and understand and appreciate his pain and his music in a less fabricated environment, you might understand a little better. I'm not excusing the act of suicide. Shit, he may not even be a "hero" (what does that mean anyway?? He probably was INDEED a hero to many kids) but to call him weak is pretty shallow and shows that you know very little about his music.

[catpower2000]

16. Hmm, do you have to be so rude?

I asked for comments and fully expected people to disagree with me, but you really don't have to be so condescending, I know a bit about both music and suicide myself.

I've been suicidal and made attempts in the past. I'm very glad now that I didn't succeed, because I've realized since that it IS the ultimate selfish act. I don't care how bad your pain is. Leaving that mess for others to clean up is fucking selfish. If you have to drag your damn ass out of bed and go get some damn medication, or just put one damn foot in front of the other every day, it CAN be done. There are millions and millions of people in the world (and some notable ones on this very website) who feel as badly as Cobain did, but don't kill themselves because they don't want to put their families through that.

As for the other artists you mentioned, that is a strawman anyway, but to answer your question, yes, in the narrow interpretation of this thread, they were weak. I am sure that all of those artists had people who cared for them, who were left behind to pick up the pieces.

Your assertion that I am engrossed in the surreal and fake world of MTV just because I watched a program on the station is absurd.

I never said I was an obsessive fan of Nirvana's, but I own all their albums and have certainly listened to them quite a bit over the years. As I said in my original post, I think they were an innovative and important band. My assertion that Cobain's suicide was weak cannot in any way be connected with the quality of their music, so your last comment makes no sense and is obviously meant as an insult.

I would like to discuss this topic with you, but if you continue to be so rude about it, I'll consider it a lost cause.

Cat

on edit: and as for your comments about Grohl, it's all subjective of course, but I would say bull. Dave Grohl is in the top 5 in the all-time history of rock drummers.

[NicoleM]

17. He wasn't just depressed.

He had a stomach condition which caused him incredible physical pain. I think he said that's why he used heroin--it was the only thing that took the pain away.

I don't know if suicide is always selfish. I would agree that sometimes it is. But who am I to judge how much pain anyone should be able to bear?

[catpower2000]

19. See Corarose's post right now in the lounge...

for an example of someone who lived through insanely hard emotional, mental, and physical problems and perservered.

I'm not saying I don't have compassion for people who are clinically depressed or have other health problems. I'd be heartless if I felt that way. But I AM saying that taking that particular step is heartless on THEIR parts.

Cat

[NicoleM]

22. heartless or not

I can't say that Kurt should have been able to "take it." I have never been Kurt Cobain. I have never been in the amount of pain he was in. Maybe I could have dealt with it, or Corarose could have, or you could have, but it was just too much for HIM.

Also, IIRC, he thought he was doing his kid a favor--he didn't want her to grow up with a heroin addict for a dad. Obviously he was not thinking clearly. There was a lot more than just heartlessness or selfishness or weakness that contributed to his suicide.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catpower2000]

29. I am truly not trying to be smartalecky...

Where do you find me so?

I said, and I meant, that I have compassion for people who are suicidal. I have no argument with the fact that Cobain may have been in ten times as much pain as I was, which is why I said "I don't CARE how much pain you're in." Not that I don't CARE, I just don't think you can quantify pain that way. Everyone's problems are the worst to themselves.

I lived with a clinical depressive who was an ex-junkie. He didn't work, didn't leave the house, but he played guitar, recorded music on his 4-track and knew everything about music. He worshipped Cobain--thought he was a hero. Maybe that's what you're picking up on--I'm very angry that he used his pain as an excuse to have a non-life--and then had the fucking gall to worship someone who had taken the easy way out (in my opinion)--while I was still going to work and going to college and fucking living my life, even when it sucked and was horrible and I hated everything and wanted to die. I just DIDN'T. I just have this sense of RESPONSIBILITY to my family. And I think it's selfish if a person thinks more of their own pain than the pain of others.

But this is all subjective, and I may be full of shit, who knows?

Cat

edit: weird word choice

[hiphopnation]

26. Well...

I meant no insults only that I found your original post to be a tad judgmental. If you knew him personally, then by all means I withdrawal everything I said. I am assuming that you did not, so I find that those who are critical of anyone who commits suicide to be out-of-line. How on earth can you know how hard it was for the guy??

I also don't mean to take away from your own pain and suffering, but how do you know that Kurt Cobain didn't experience that 10-fold??

My comment about MTV was merely that that much to his chagrin, Kurt Cobain's message and music became synonymous with MTV culture which was one of the things that helped drive him off the deep end to begin with.

In the end, there's just no way of knowing what was going through his head. He was a monster song-writer, and had a talent for putting real guts into music that most of his contemporaries did not have. Sorry if I was a bit harsh.

PS If Dave Grohl is in your top five drummers, then we are definitely on a different page. But peace anyway.

[catpower2000]

33. Of course, the whole conversation is subjective.

Peace to you.

Cat

[ulysses]

9. I don't think that this follows, cat.

But why is he a hero? Because he killed himself, is the obvious answer.

I know that's what made him so for some for a while - I remember seeing an underground Seattle cartoon shortly after the fact that basically demanded that Eddie Vedder kill himself if he wanted to achieve the same level of greatness - but it's been what, nine years? Ten?

I don't know about the "hero" thing - even musically, everyone is derivative at some level. Still, I'd have voted for them at #1, for the personal reason that they spoke my mind at the time and in many ways still do. Maybe, if the hero thing is valid, that's why. Kurt Cobain didn't overcome his weaknesses but succumbed to them. He was human.

[ProfessorGAC]

10. And Another Thing

People in the music biz readily acknowledge that Grohl was not only the best musician in the band, but actually played the other guys parts in the studio at times when it needed to be a little better.

Also, most of the song arrangement ideas were his. Cobain wrote some good songs and then Grohl was the driving force behing turning them into great heavy pop tunes.

I'm not dissing Nirvana in any way, nor am i diminishing Cobain by this, but Grohl was the brains of the outfit.
The Professor

[hiphopnation]

12. That's what tips me off...

People in the music biz...

What about the musicians?? Most musicians I know tend to think that the work done pre-Grohl is far superious. Post-Grohl=more suitable for corporate suits...fine. If that's the type of thing you're in to. :puke:

[Kusala]

13. Regardless of his death,

Nirvana was still a great band. But Greatest of all-time? What kind of weed are they smoking?

One has to wonder if this would have been a career band, had he not offed himself, putting out strings of hits for 20+ years ala U2 or REM, the stones, aerosmith, etc.

Ironically, I saw a band called Seether in concert recently. I swear the lead is Kurt Cobain back from the dead. He sounds just like him.

[vi5]

14. One man's opinion...they were neither great, innovative, or great live....

Honestly I thought they were completely overrated and a prime example of right place and right time. I had the displeasure of seeing them live after Bleach came out, and also after Nevermind and they were yawn inducing both times.

They simply mined territory better played by bands like Husker Du, the Pixies, and any number of innovative bands that came before. I can see where if someone came of age and hit their teen years during this explosion in 1991 it would be great and exhilarating. But I was 23 when the whole thing hit and it did nothing for me.

On top of that I think they ruined independent/alternative music.

[Robb]

15. I remember

I remember hearing Nirvana for the first time on some college radio station. I had never heard of them, never heard of "grunge", knew nothing about the "Seattle scene".

I heard a song and went to the record store to find the album. The guys behind the counter had never heard of them -- they even checked the "Eastern" (as in far East) section for me. :)

When I finally got my hands on it, I listened to the entire thing over and over. It was such a harsh, angry, and coherent piece of work, so totally owned by the voice of Cobain, I knew there was something there that couldn't be defined. I also knew it was going to be huuuuuge.

I never felt that personal connection to the band some folks did, but I appreciated the music as brutal, honest, and enraged -- and it spoke to me. I remember where I was when I heard he had killed himself. It was a loss in more than conventional terms; there would be no more Cobain, and no more albums.

Best band ever? Maybe not. But it sure shined twice as bright, mm?

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. MTV website is "greatest 22 of the last 22 years"

which makes a bit of difference. My personal opinion is that the standard of music went rapidly down about 23 years ago (as in fact did The Clash, but they still manage to squeeze them into the list of possibles), so there's not much to choose from.

http://www.mtv.com/onair/mtv2/22_greatest/

But what can you do with a poll that thinks Depeche Mode are worth talking about, but not Dire Straits?

As far as Cobain goes, I'd agree there are a few who worship him, and many more who are optimistic about what he might have produced if he'd lived longer. That can be used as a basis for this kind of vote.

[catpower2000]

28. You're right, I didn't quote the title correctly...thank you nt

[jenk]

24. he was both a hero and a coward

But I just can't get mad at the guy for some reason.

Nirvana isn't the greatest band of all time, maybe the greatest MTV band...

They would probably rank in the top 5 though, behind the beatles, stones, zep etc. maybe the top 10.

[corarose]

27. He was too small to shoot himself & I bet her was murdered

But if he did manage to kill himself he is no HERO.

[radwriter0555]

31. SOMETIMES we can think that someone who has the GUTS to die on their own

terms is indeed a sort of hero.

After all, it takes a HUGE amount of courage to check out of this life voluntarily.

The thing that people fear the MOST is death.

When someone chooses when, where and how they'll die, well, that takes some guts, regardless of the pain or trauma that took them to that point.

Either that or else kurt couldn't bear the thought of living with that banshee love any longer. Chick is a mess and this close to emulating KC.

[catpower2000]

32. She does seem a bit unbalanced...

She was on an episode of the Osbornes and she was raving about nonsense and staggering around in underpants chanting "Don't look at my ass." :eyes:

Cat

[radwriter0555]

34. You have NO idea...

it's real real bad.

[FDRrocks]

36. I agree, and I would wager that just as many girls...

were prone to vote Nirvana. I used to have a friend that actually burned his initials in 3 inch letters down the front of her thigh. Talk about ruining a work of art.

I always though Pearl Jam did more for grunge, if they can't. Helluvalot of talent in those guys too. Although Grohl is pretty good on guitar for having drums as his main instrument for so long.

[matcom]

37. "weak"

maybe he felt he had the "guts" to get out.

don't know if he is a "hero" or not (and really don't care) but unless you know first hand of his "demons", you'll never know.

[Cheswick2.0]

43. he was weak

he decided to get out rather than fight and recover from addiction. He left his daughter without a father. How does that take guts?

[jus_the_facts]

38. I read on another board the other day...."I wish I could dig him up and...

....and shoot him again for ruining rock and roll...then I'd hang the ones who made him famous in the first place!" Rather morbid and silly statement to make but I never liked him or his music either! :evilgrin:

on edit...if I were to think such thoughts...it would read as...too bad he couldn't have done the deed BEFORE he got famous! x( Flame away! :D

[wiggle-room]

39. Cobain saw the edge, and went over it anyway

He saw things and accepted things that would cause any man or woman to do the same or settle for less.

I'm not glorifying or touting suicide, but this man walked on the edge of what we told him was all, and I believe he saw the sadness and hopelessness - despite the pretnese reaching level xx - that there was no true reason to continue, in his mind. He felt - and he felt strongly - and he saw the jaws of life , and said "no, not me."

on edit: he skated that perimiter most of us cower from - who the hell are we to judge him?

[Cheswick2.0]

42. so he left those that loved him in deeper sadness and hopelessness

Did he consider his wife or daughter? How about his friends and parents?

[wiggle-room]

45. How can you judge him?

He did what he did, and his life experience brought him to that. He was a visionary, by some accounts.

Who's to say that any of us, given the insight he may have had, would not say 'fuck it?'

Not to say he's a hero, not to say he's not. But the sunshiney life we focus on has an opposite side, and fate eventually decorates your home. Who knows what Cobain saw. Who knows if it became apparent to him that no frame of reference, no happy spin, would ever, ever quell some impending, ultimate hell.

How can any of us judge?

On edit: to stare reality in the face - not reality as we imagine it, but cold hard reality as it is, the ultimate winner. How can we say no, Kurt, you should have stuck it out?

[diamondsoul]

51. No, probably he didn't.

Does that make any of it ok? No, but dammit, there's a limit to what people can take. That man HURT! All he knew inthe end was the PAIN. Oh but yeah, he was selfish because hey what's a little suffering compared to being a Dad, right? Fuck off, ok? Pain is not a joke and not something to be blown off.

Yeah Kurt was a hero because he fought like hell. He tried and didn't stop until he couldn't take it anymore. HJe kept the fuck on going. Any of you hurt like him? Inside where you can't fix it? Where you suffer no matter what? Where it eats your fecking guts out and NOBODY gets it?

Yeah, well Kurt did. You don't know, I don't know, and now it doesn't matter except that he'd want to be an example of what NOT to do. So do you help his memory or do you feed the media farce?

Pardon me. At the moment I'm just plain PISSED and dogging Kurt didn't help.

[SmileyBoy]

40. If he didn't have that stomach condition, he wouldn't have killed himself.

His ulcerous stomach condition could only be soothed with Methadone, which is basically heroin. As a result, he got addicted to heroin that way. He would've just been a pothead if he didn't have that illness. I've written reports on him, and I've read his journal many times. I really believe that he would've just been a sullen, alcoholic pothead if he didn't have that ulcer. The heroin, combined with the existing depression is what drove him to suicide, while depression and pot alone wouldn't have done that. He NEVER should've touched heroin.

And about his band and his music, I sincerely believe that Nirvana was the best for its time. Not the best group over the past 22 years, IMO. You could argue for REM, Pearl Jam, U2, etc. But for the circumstances that existed, I think Nirvana was a breath of fresh air in an already stale hair-metal and alternative scene. They were ther band that had come up first and evicted the hair metal bands out of the building. Not many bands can or could do something of that calibre. The White Stripes, The Vines and The Hives are making an attempt at it, I think. But most of what you have today compared to Nirvana in its day is totally uncreative, generic crap.

[1a2b3c]

41. When linkin park makes the top 10

Who really gives a shit about the rest of them?

Its like the time Queen Latifa made #7 on the sexiest women....????

She beat out Brittany Spears??? :wtf:

[mvd]

46. I agree that he's not to be worshipped personally..

But I do think Nirvana was a great band. I tend to lean towards Nevermind more than their other stuff, but Kurt's angst was very real and so many immitators have never been able to get it right. Unfortunately, bands like Nickelback and Staind clutter radio. Playing-wise, he wasn't technically that much above other grunge players, but his playing was not just aimed at radio - and he had great arrangement ideas.

[DS1]

48. why should he owe anything to his fans?

Fuck that, it's his life, if he wanted to end it, he ended it. It was his choice. (I'm assuming of course that it was his choice, but if it wasn't as many will suggest, this thread is moot in the first place) I'm so tired of hearing/reading people complaining about 'owing it to the fans', no artist ever owes anything to any fan.

[scucci]

49. I don't know why it's your's or anyone else's business

It was his life and he chose to end it how he saw fit. Did you see what was going on in his mind through his years? No, so you've no right to judge.

I hope you never experience the absolute pain of very severe depression. It ain't fun and we're just trying to hang on.

[diamondsoul]

50. Kurt hurt more than most of us will ever even guess at.

And thank God for that.

Selfish my arse, you ever hurt and can;t find an answer to it but illicit drugs?

I loved Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, but I loved them for Kurts writing and voice. He tore people's hearts open. He reminded people what it was like to feel, but he also suffered. NO, he isn't a hero because he killed himself. He's a hero because he talked to people who needed to know they weren;t alone.

If all you saw was a suicide, then you missed the whole thing.

[amazona]

52. he was no. 1 before he killed himself

Lots of people kill themselves every day. It doesn't make them famous. He was beloved, and it was a terrible loss. The man had chronic stomach pain of unknown origin, he was being used (and I think he was intelligent enough to know he was being used) by an evil shrew, and he had a disease (depression) that kills many people every year no matter how heroic or unheroic they may be. It is not my place to say that I could have stayed alive under those conditions. Also, there is a question of how a man with that quantity of heroin in his system could have stayed conscious long enough to pick up a gun and shoot himself. He changed music, we would have gone straight from Madonna to Britney with no relief without him. That is why he is a hero. Not because he's dead. Anybody can do dead.


i'm not a male under 30 by a long shot

[mitchum]

53. I am saddened and deprived by Cobain's death....

but a death cult is unhealthy. I don't think he was weak, but neither was he right. The man had a rare talent for deceptive melody...and you're so absolutely right...Dave Grohl's drums are perfect.