T-shirt I saw last week: "Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion."

[YellowRubberDuckie]

:wtf: is that!? I'm a Christian, and even I'M offended.
Duckie

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. LIEberman said the same thing too.

:puke:

[rfranklin]

2. I'm a Buddhist and I'm offended....

Though, on Tuesdays I am an agnostic.

[Deja Q]

3. Freedom from religion is a part of freedom from religion.

They can spack off for all I care. x(

[tk2kewl]

4. not offended

it is simply a stupid comment

how 'bout i choose a religion that preaches cannibalism or human sacrifice?

who is responsible for making up the multiple-choice test?

[papau]

5. Of religion is the phrase our founding fathers used - and this is bad why?

:-)

Freedom from religion would imply one could NOT build a church since the sight of the church might offend those who demand freedom from religion.

:-)

[Book Lover]

6. Why can't we enjoy both?

You can choose any religion you want. I get to avoid religion altogether, and we all get to restore the Pledge to its original form and get the gods off our money.

[Arugula Latte]

7. Well, personally,

whenever I see a church the first thing that pops into my mind is "what a waste of space -- too bad."

not that it matters to anyone ...

[MrModerate]

8. You could take it that way, I suppose, but . . .

For me, freedom from religion is that if I say "no, thank you" they stop bothering me.

Sort of an operational definition rather than a legalistic one.

[papau]

12. I agree

:-)

[mondo joe]

16. WRONG. Freedom OF includes Freedom FROM

And it doesn't mean a church can't be built.

Any freedom of religion in the constitution speaks to what government can do.

[KurtNYC]

9. What some consider 'religion' is anything but freedom

[edbermac]

10. Okay if have to subscribe to a religion I'm a Rastafarian...

Any religion that advocates smoking ganja is okay by me!

:hippie:

[papau]

13. Atheism is a faith based choice - a religion - so you could chose

it, if you prefer to avoid the legal problems with ganja !

:-)

[mondo joe]

17. Oh and atheism is not faith based.

It's rather the opposite.

[papau]

20. What can an athiest prove about God?

Seems rather faith based to me.

[mondo joe]

23. faith is the belief in something without evidence. Not absence of belief.

[AZCat]

25. Didn't we go through this enough last week?

I thought everybody got their fill of the atheism vs. theism debates in GD last week (or the week before - time's funny around here).

I'm sure if you want to look, there are a good dozen threads there digging into this.

[mondo joe]

28. I'd rather not do that debate - but I'm not ready to be accused of a faith

I'd rather not do that debate - but I'm not ready to be accused of a faith based choice.

I don't generally bad mouth religious people - and I'm not about to take bad mouthing about atheism.

[AZCat]

29. Okay

I would just rather not see this subject explode again.

And I suppose it would be equally as easy for me to just ignore the threads/posts that I am not interested in, rather than trying to act as "forum police". Mea culpa.

[mondo joe]

30. AZ, I appreciate your efforts to prevent an explosion.

I really do. And I don't want an explosion either.

That's partially why I was so irked by another poster taking a dig at atheism.

[AZCat]

31. I didn't mean to call you out

I was trying to respond to the "sub-thread" but you were the last one to post, so...

Yeah - it would be nice if that didn't happen (digs at atheism) but I guess sometimes it happens inadverdently. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to do. :)

[papau]

33. I would never bad mouth any faith, even atheism. :-)

peace

:-)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

26. I didn't post this to get back into that argument.

It's not your place to criticize someone's belief or lack thereof. I just thought the tshirt was interesting. I don't criticize you or the way you live your life, so please show me the same courtesy.
Duckie

[mondo joe]

27. I'm not criticizing anyone, just responding to claim that atheism is faith

I'm not criticizing anyone, just responding to claim that atheism is faith based.

[papau]

32. You believe there's no God without being able to prove that - that's faith

Come out of the closet and enjoy your belief system -

most folks have one - nothing wrong about having one, is there?

[mac56]

34. You're calling on someone to prove a negative.

You write, "You believe there's no God without being able to prove that."

The burden of proof should be on the one asserting the existence of God. IMO.

[papau]

36. Not true in metaphysics - the rules are a bit different as to logic :-)

The point is neither assertion can be proved -

that is why it is called metaphysics - and not physics or math.

:-)

[progressoid]

37. Umm, no

I think you are confusing faith or dogma with a personal view. If any idea is a belief and a belief is a religion then I'm signing up for tax-exempt status as a pastor of my church - The 'Anything I Think About Is A Religion' Church.

I don't 'believe' anything concerning god. It's a non-issue. Nor do I want to prove or need to prove that I do or do not believe the existence or non-existence of god. Atheism is only a belief system for theists! For us it's nothing - a vacuum - a void - heck it's not even a void - it's void of a void.


Theism: a religious belief.

A-Theism: no religious belief.

Simple, huh?

[DelawareValleyDem]

11. As Hugo Black wrote

a union of government and religion tends to destroy government and degrade religion

[warrens]

14. Theo-fascism

You cannot talk rationally with people who believe every word in a book written over a thousand years is the literal, complete and accurate word of a cloud being. It's not possible.

[CarbonDate]

35. You're right

The only rational response to that T-shirt is to kick the guy in the nuts and run away.

It's what Jesus would want.

[RUDUing2]

15. you can not have freedom OF religion without having freedom FROM religion

this sums it up very well:
http://www.humanistsofutah.org/1992/art4june92.html

.......Our first right guaranteed in the first line of the first article of the Bill of Rights, is the right to freedom of religion. Again, if we as a people do not understand what freedom of religion means, and where it comes from, it can be taken away from us by our own government, and we won't even know it. There are crucial principles to be understood:

Freedom of Conscience
Pluralism
Tolerance
Governmental Neutrality
Separation of State and Church
Freedom From Religion

The basic idea of freedom of religion is that no one, especially the government, is allowed to force religion on anyone else or prohibit anyone from practicing a religion. To force others to support a church or profess belief in a church's tenets is as much a violation of their civil rights as is preventing them from practicing their religion. One component of freedom of religion is freedom of conscience. This is the freedom to hold and express our ideas sincerely. It s our civil right to accept or reject any religion or religious idea, and to do so openly and honestly without fear or coercion. ........

In the majority opinion of Wallace versus Jaffree (83-812, 1985), Supreme Court Justice John P. Stevens wrote, "The individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all." Freedom of conscience thus guarantees that the right to freedom of religion includes the right to freedom from religion. A civil right to freedom from religion is also supported by the establishment clause. It states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." If the purpose was simply to proscribe favoring one religion over another, as some religionists maintain, it should read "..respecting the establishment of a religion." If it said "a," the assertion would be that government is forbidden from favoring Islam, say, over Pentecostalism. The lack of the indefinite article "a," however, makes it clear that it is religion in general, as opposed to non-religion which may not be established. .......

[UdoKier]

18. Exactly. Can't have one without the other.

nt

[Ladyhawk]

19. There is no freedom without the freedom to dissent. n/t

[Seabiscuit]

21. Was it worn inside out?

It sure got the message ass-backwards.

[arwalden]

22. I'll Take Freedom FROM Religion!! -- Freedom OF Religion Means...

that they get to choose freely... it does NOT mean that they get to IMPOSE IT FREELY.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

24. Allen, I didn't recognize you there without the hot laughing dude.

Some warning!? :)
Duckie