Why Return of the King irks me so (may contain spoilers)

[mondo joe]

The first two LotR movies were so good, and I know many think Return of the King is the best of all three, but I can't watch it without being SO ANNOYED.

1. Just no focus - it's about too many things at the same time and some just aren't important.

2. Eowyn - is she a great fighter or is she afraid? The movie can't quite decide.

3. Those ghost warriors - never mentioned before and suddenly just as things get bad this unstoppable force shows up to save the day. Yuck. The arrival of the Elvish warriors in Two Towers was SO MUCH BETTER.

4. Gandalf the White - why isn't he doing any wizarding shit? Hell, in the first movie he and Saruman were throwing each other around magically. In RotK he fights with a sword and staff, but you'd hardly know he was a wizard at all.

5. Timing - the timing is just SO OFF. After the big battle, Aragorn says "let's go fight Sauron as a distraction" and they're there in like a day. Are they THAT CLOSE????

There are more reasons but these are the main ones.

There's also a lot to like. In fact there's so much brilliance that it makes me MORE cranky to see these flaws.

[joeybee12]

1. Well, I'm one of the many who thought the third was the best...

...mainly everything happened when it should have--the pasing and structure was absolutely brilliant. A great piece of movie-making.

I had problems with the second one--The Two Towers, Have you seen the extended version of that? It really fills in some of the gaps, and really makes a lot more sense.

[mondo joe]

2. The pacing was brilliant? I thought that it was so bad.

I actually thought Two Towers was perfect with regard to pacing and structure.

Return of the King was so off - the sense of time was so screwy (as in the time it takes to get from location to location in the damn movie). And then the 5 or so emotional climaxes in place of one. Bah!

[okieinpain]

3. loved rotk, but I will agree with you about the ghost raiders. that

was dumb.

[joeybee12]

20. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Oh well, let's agree to disagree.

[mark414]

4. have you read the books?

[mondo joe]

5. Nope.

But I don't think that changes my criticism of the movies.

[mark414]

8. mmm that definitely would

i was mighty pissed when i walked out of the second movie, because it jumps all over the place and isn't very true to the book...

i think you'll find that the criticisms you have and the criticisms someone who has read the books would have, would be completely different for completely different reasons

from a book reader's perspective, 1 and 3 were great, and 2 pissed me off beyond belief...i have since reconciled with it but still hold some strong feelings every now and then

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. 2 didn't piss me off that much.

It could've been better, but there was so much in the second book that it's just difficult to get it all worked out.

[mondo joe]

16. But since I was seeing a movie I expected it to work AS a movie...

.. not so much as a literal version of the books. :-)

[mark414]

19. it's all good man

but you should read the books anyways, not to change your mind about the movie, but just because they are soooo good

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. It should.

The books were written such that it would've been very difficult to do the movie otherwise.

[mondo joe]

17. Only if you expect a literal moment by moment adaptation of the books

And I wouldn't expect that.

I'd expect things to shift to make sense as a movie.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

23. They did shift. Entirely.

You have to understand that as a book, there were two entirely separate storylines. Frodo and Sam's story was completely separated from Aragorn and Co.'s story. They had to be meshed together chronologically for anything to make sense, and that is how it was done.

[ET Awful]

10. I was wondering the same thing :) n/t

[mkultra]

6. they where close to the black gate

osgilliath was very close to the black gate. So getting there in one day is no great feat.

[mondo joe]

7. Then why didn't all the meanies just join in the attack on the city?

I admit I find it confusing.

If they're all so close why didn't they join in the attack on the city???

[mark414]

9. because they were preparing for a second wave

as to not give away the full size of their force

the idea was to go beat the shit out of the men, and maybe the men might be able to pull it off, so we'll throw a whole nother wave at them.

you definitely need to read the books

[gratuitous]

14. Actually, no

The trek from Minas Tirith (not Osgiliath) to the Black Gate takes the better part of a week or so in the books. This is necessary because Sam and Frodo are waylaid and having a devil of a time getting through Mordor to Mount Doom. If the twin climaxes of the confrontation and battle before the Black Gate and the end of Frodo's task are to coincide, the good guys have to be held up, and the journey north to the Black Gate has to take some time.

The journey north is also designed to distract Sauron's attention after the battle for Minas Tirith. At all costs, the good guys know that Sauron can't be left to his own devices in Mordor in the aftermath of his army's defeat. So they undertake a hopeless task, traveling up the long road to the Black Gate along the border with Mordor, knowing that Sauron's spies and attention will be riveted on the party's progress, and not on what might be going on nearer at hand.

Unfortunately, this delaying tactic doesn't make for a good movie. Travel sequences aren't very interesting to film or watch, so the journey to the Black Gate is horribly foreshortened. The trip Sam and Frodo take from the tower above Cirith Ungol to Mount Doom is also cut a lot shorter than it was in the book. In the movie, it's almost as if the two sites are next to each other, but in the book, Frodo and Sam stumble in disguise with an orc horde for over a week, almost to the Black Gate inside Mordor before heading south to Mount Doom.

[atreides1]

11. Read The Books

1. Read the books, after the Fellowship is broken the story line jumps from Frodo and Sam, to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, to Merry and Pippin.

2. As for Eowyn, she was brought up to fight, but had never been to war until she rode with the Riders of Rohan. Add that to the fact that
she faced the leader of the Nazgul, and defeated him with the help of Merry. By the way going into combat, everyone is afraid, even experienced soldiers.

3. Once again read the books, the Army of the Dead, is mentioned in the books. As for the Elves at Helms Deep, that was added in by Peter Jackson, it was never in the books.

4. Read the books!!!

5. In reality it takes them several days to travel to the Balck Gates,
but like all things in the movies, time is not relevant.

All I can suggest is that you get a copy of the books and read them, maybe it will help you to understand it more.

[mondo joe]

18. I don't think I should have to read the books to get an enjoyable movie

2. Eowyn is afraid, then not afraidm then afraid, then not afraid. I expect characters to modulate but her characterization seems SO inconsistent.

3. I'm sure the army of the dead is mentioned in the books - but in the movie it comes out of left field as the biggest deus ex machina.

5. Time isn't relevant in movies? Sure it is.

If you have to read the book to make sense of the movie there's a problem.

[R3dD0g]

24. Army of the dead?

How do you get that the army of the dead isn't mentioned in the movie? Were you at the popcorn stand when Aragorn et al left the Rohan army and traveled into the mountains? Were you getting a soda when Aragorn challenged the King of the Army of the Dead?

How much more preparation would you want?

[mondo joe]

27. I meant it was not mentioned before then

Given that we're looking at about 9 hours of movie, to have this HUGE SAVE THE DAY element pop up only when it did is pure deus ex machina.

[Coventina]

15. I was disappointed also, but for different reasons.

Actually, I'm really disappointed with the "extended" version which I rushed out and bought yesterday morning.

They added almost another hour to the thing and they STILL didn't cover Faramir and Eowyn!!!! I'm sorry, but a quick cuddle does NOT do them justice!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

21. You should read the books

[Inland]

22. Yow, you liked the worst thing about the entire movie adaptation

a contingent of Elves showing up in Two Towers was a horrible mistake. It wasnt' in the book, which doesn't make it bad, just gratuitous.

It was bad because it was totally out of character of the elves and contrary to one of the main themes of the book. The elves didn't join in the fight---they were leaving, or withdrawing. But that isn't just mistaking where most of the elves were. The books don't make any sense without the pervasive sense of loss occasioned by the dissappearance of the race that was actually magical, although Tolkien doesn't use that word. Even after the victory, that sense of loss remained. The great evil vanquished, the great good vanishes, and your are left with middling, confused and "normal" beings, Men.

Having a contingent of near supernatural beings showing up at a battle merely makes them look, well, less than that. It looked like a bunch of normal guys with strange hair choices.

[mondo joe]

Your standard is was it in the book - mine: does it work in the movie

And I think the elvish warriors work brilliantly in the movie.

A great nod to the old union of the factions against Sauron.

A brilliant bit of tension relief and added drama.

[Inland]

26. No, my standard IS whether it worked in the movie

There WAS no revival of the old union. That's why Sauron was going to win, and without the knowledge that the elves weren't joining (and men becoming estranged from elves and dwarves just plain depopulating) and Sauron going to win without the hail mary pass of taking the ring to mordor, the story not only loses its epic perspective, it doesn't make sense.

And I don't see how it adds drama. Seems more of a moment of cheap sentiment at the expense of a grander theme.

The more I think about it, there IS no story without the premise of elves declining to take part.

[NewJeffCT]

25. I liked the first one the best

It was more character driven - Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Bilbo, etc, were all alive in the first movie. In the second and third, they were more small characters caught up big events - Helm's Deep, the Siege of Gondor/Battle of Pelennor Fields - that everybody seemed to get lost in the mix.

And, why can't Eowyn be both afraid and a great fighter?

Also, the ghost warriors were in the book, while the elvish warriors in Helm's Deep were not.

I think Gandalf used up his magic in trying to save the troops from the nazgul.