I wasn't raised in religion and I have a few questions about Xmas

[HEyHEY]

Growing up I saw all these xmas specials what is tru eand what isn't ..here goes:


Was there a little drummer boy?
Was there a donkey that carried Mary?
Who the hell is Joseph if Mary is Virgin?

[vpigrad]

1. .

> Was there a little drummer boy?

No.

> Was there a donkey that carried Mary?

Yes.

> Who the hell is Joseph if Mary is Virgin?

Her husband. According to the story, she died a virgin, but I don't think anyone really believes that.

[demnan]

2. Okay

1. The Little Drummer Boy was a song - so that's like Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reighdeer.

2. Donkeys were sort of the Ford of their day in Judea, so it's quite possible.

3. Joseph was another guy who fell for a good story, I guess.

[bahrbearian]

10. What do you mean by that ?

"Joseph was another guy who fell for a good story", I've been married seven years now and my wife is still a virgin,,, come to think of it, I do have a few stories ...

[Spinzonner]

3. If you want non specious answers

try

http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b.htm

[vetwife]

4. An angel had to appear to Joseph

to tell her that Mary was about to be given the greatest gift on Earth.....She was a virgin, and God had chosen her to deliver Jesus. Joseph was upset as he knew his wife was a virgin. In Bible days you had sex the way I understand it to populate the Earth., to bear children. If you were a righteous person. I have never read how long they were married.
Joseph was a bit upset thinking his wife had not been true and an Angel appeared to him.

A drummer boy is significant of bringing good tidings to the Baby Jesus and never read that there was a Little Drummer Boy. I have no idea if the animals talked. I never read that either. A donkey did talk in the Bible however, but not in this case.

[ET Awful]

5. Well Dan Bern tells us this about Joseph :)

Joe Christ was Jesus’ daddy
He worked at the corner saloon
Served up Shafers’ and Shlitzes
For the mill workers starting around noon

Joe Christ worked on the weekends
And on the major holidays, you bet
You know he would have tended bar on Christmas
If Christmas had been invented yet

One day his wife came in the bar
Mary Christ did not come in most days
She said Joe, there’s something that I gotta tell you
I’m pregnant, big with child, in the family way

Joe Christ, he wrinkled up his brow
He said babe you know I love you have no fear
But you know on account of my condition
We haven’t actually done it in a year

She said baby cakes, my honey pie, my Joe
You know I would never lie to you
It’s the Lord himself, done it to me
He brought along champagne and chocolate too

It was magical, I just could not say no
He had this French accent, and what’s more
He treated me just rough enough, howI like it
I felt like a ten-thousand dollar whore

But Joe, Joe you gotta understand
It didn’t mean nothing, that’s no lie
I only seen him once and now I’m done with it
Joe, you’re my number one guy

Joe Christ
Joe Christ
Joe Christ
Deedle dee dee dee dee
Joe Christ’s gonna have himself a family

Well Mary left the bar and Joe just stared
He sighed the deepest sigh he ever had
He poured himself a shot and said I guess
I’m gonna kinda sorta be a dad

Joe said, Shots of whisky on the house
And thought, Diapers, Jesus, how can I afford--
And do I believe Mary’s story
Was it the milkman or really the Lord

He thought well what choice do I have
With my condition I can’t get no other dame
There’s a critter on the way, that’s the bottom line
Don’t really matter how it came

Joe closed the tavern and came on home
He found Mary sleeping on the couch
He turned off the TV and the computer
Rolled up some tobacco from his pouch

Joe Christ he stood out on the front porch
He looked up at the brightest star
And he hoped that his kid would grow up healthy
And in time take his place behind the bar

Joe Christ
Joe Christ
Joe Christ
Deedle dee dee dee dee
Joe Christ’s gonna have himself a family

[steely]

11. Wow, that read great.

Reminds of John Prine, I'll have to look up this guy.
I like songs like that - but anyway, back to the topic at hand....

[Left Is Write]

6. Let's see if I can answer for you -

Was there a little drummer boy? The drummer boy does not appear in any Biblical story, if that's what you mean. It's just a story.

Was there a donkey that carried Mary? Probably. Mary and Joseph travelled from Nazareth to Bethlehem; while many people probably walked, because Mary was pregnant, it seems reasonable that she was allowed to ride on the back of a donkey.

Who the hell is Joseph if Mary is Virgin? Mary and Joseph were engaged. If one takes the story of Jesus' birth to be literal, one understands that Joseph is not the father of the baby; God is. According to Matthew, when Joseph learned that Mary was pregnant, he sought to dissolve their betrothal quietly. An angel appeared to him in a dream and told him to go ahead with the marriage, that the baby was of God, and it would be a son they should name Jesus. The story in Matthew also tells us that Joseph did not have "relations" with Mary until after the birth, thus she was a virgin at the time Jesus was born. Joseph, of course, raised the boy as his father. If you have no Christian belief, the story isn't particularly relevant, but there it is.

[Longgrain]

7. Short and serious...

The little drummer boy was mentioned in Matthew 5:16-13! How could you have missed it!

The mother of the Savior always rides a donkey...at least until the donkey gives her a big kick in the ass...

RE: Mary and Joe...haven't you ever heard of artificial incimination...the fundies base their entire religion on it!

Jeeze... Read your bible...

[JVS]

8. Matthew 5:16-13? Are you reading the bible backwards again?

Looking for the hidden messages?

[Longgrain]

9. Check out

Revelations 10:20:32 hike for the answer..

[catbert836]

12. OK, here we go.

1. No, its just a stupid and annoying song.
2. Yes, according to the Gospel
3. Her husband, but she supposedly(at least Christians believe that) she remained a virgin thruout her life. When she concieved, Joseph was told by God to marry her because single mothers were usually stoned to death back then.

[yellowdogintexas]

15. enough of this Mary was a virgin her whole life.

I never heard that ever.

Scripture states Joseph "knew her not" until after Jesus was born"

and I believe somewhere there is mention of some 1/2 brothers .James???

[Left Is Write]

19. I never heard the virgin-for-life story either.

[yellowdogintexas]

24. thank you, I was pretty sure I wasn't losing it, there

[Nikia]

16. Most mainline Protestant churches do not think she remained a virgin

That is my experience anyway. The scripture stated in a post above says that Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until afer she had Jesus. James was Jesus's brother and he is mentioned to have had other siblings also. Several ministers have told me that Mary wasn't a virgin her whole life. It is Catholic doctorine though that she was a virgin her whole life.

[happyslug]

17. We Catholics says Mary was Ever Virgin

A pope in the Sixth Century said so and along with the position that the Lady at the Well, the Adulteress AND Mary Magdalene were all one and the same woman (even if reading the Gospels you can easily see all three were three different women).

The Catholic Church has had a problem with this doctrine since the time of Christ. Tradition within the Church was Mary was always a Virgin and when the Bible mentions "James, the brother of Christ" they were referring to James the Greater. St James was a Cousin of Christ, when both he and his brother becomes followers of Christ they are IDs as Sons of sons of Zebedee (Who was an Uncle to Jesus so these are Jesus's Cousins).

This has been the Church's position on the "Brothers of Christ" that this was a term of art meaning his male relations not only restricted to his brothers but included his cousins. The church follows this concept with the statement of Christ to his Cousin John to take of his mother. If Jesus had brothers that would be his brother's job not his cousin's.

For more see St James the Less "Son of Alphaeus" See:
http://www.12apostlesofthecatholicchurch.com/jamestheless.html

For more on St James "son of Zebedee, brother of John"
http://www.12apostlesofthecatholicchurch.com/james.html

List of the Apostles:
http://www.12apostlesofthecatholicchurch.com/

[MissBrooks]

13. Why do you want to know?

Why all of a sudden do you have an interest in knowing about Mary and Joseph and the little drummer boy?

PS... It's called a bible. They sell them everywhere. Pick one up and read it - then decide for yourself.

[progmom]

18. Hey - if we're not allowed to ask questions on DU...

...then what are we here for?
Give a brother a break.

On edit: Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Left Is Write]

21. Well, goodness, there's nothing wrong with asking.

Does it really matter why he wants to know?

[Shananigans]

22. Obviously a newbie...

look at the post count...

[happyslug]

14. Short version or long version?

Down load a good copy of the New Testament and read Gospel of St. Mathew who does a decent version of the birth of Christmas.

Now the short version. An angel came to Mary and told her she will bear Jesus and she accepted this. At that time Mary was to marry Joseph but he found her pregnant he made a move to quietly devoice her but an angel came to him and told him that God wanted Jesus born to Mary and he accepted that situation.

Now Augustus leveled a Census (Called a tax in the King James version of the Bible) that was held in 1 BC. The Census was to be taken in one's home town. Joseph's home town was Bethlehem so he took himself and Mary to Bethlehem (With Mary on a Donkey, thus a Donkey was at the birth of Christ). At his birth the Bible is clear, only Joseph, Mary and the Shepards were present. Christ was born in a Stable for the Village Inn was full but Joseph was directed to a stable to stay till the housing shortage was over.

The Three Wise men appeared somewhat later (The exact time schedule in not stated in the bible for the Christmas story is just prolong to the teachings of Jesus). These appear to be Zoroaster priests from Persia who seeing the raise of "His Star" went to Jerusalem to see the new born king of the Jews. When the wise men arrived in Jerusalem the local religious leadership (and the King of Judea Herod the Great) told the Wise men that Christ was to be born in Bethlehem, to which they went and presented their gifts of Gold, Silver and Frankincense.

Most scholars believe the reason the Three Wise men saw the "Star" was their were astrologers who studied the Stars and Planets. The Conjunction of Three plants in a Zodiac symbol would be a "Star" to them and Leo the Lion was viewed as the symbol of Judea. This the wise men saw the "star" but not the religious leaders of Judea (For the Jews were NOT into Astrology like the ancient Persians).

The Bible than says that an Angel appeared to Joseph to tell him Herold was out to Kill Christ and he had to leave quickly, which Joseph did taking his family to Egypt. In 1 AD when Herod died, Joseph returned to Judea and settled in Galilee from which Christ came.

The last mention of Joseph in the Bible is when Christ is 12 years of age and goes to the Temple. At that time men and women traveled separately to the temple, with the young boys going with their mother, but the teenage boys going with their father. Given his age at 12, both Joseph and Mary thought Christ had gone with the other, when their found out their error they rushed back to the Temple and found Christ debating theology with the Temple Priests. Jesus then returns home with them and Joseph is no longer heard of again (Even in the story of the ine adn the wedding, Mary went to Jesus with the problem of the wine and told him to "fix" it. The wine had run out when Mary asked Jesus to solve the problem of no wine. When Jesus says "It is not my time yet", she turned and told everyone Jesus will get more wine. In the bible he change water into wine to please his mother. Joseph is again NOT mentioned in that story of Christ's early life).

Tradition says Joseph was an old man at the time of Christ's birth and thus died of old age before Christ started his preaching at age 30. Another tradition says that Christ did work with his father doing "rough" carpentry work (making yokes for oxen for example) till Christ turned 30. Mary is mentioned in the Bible during the time of Christ preaching and his execution but Joseph is not.

AS to the Drummer boy, that is an addition to sell the song "little drummer boy". The drum most often portrayed with the boy is a Military drum of the 18th century, but as I said he was added to sell the song no mention of any child (except Christ) is in the Christmas story.

Here is the Vatican's verison of Mathrews (Skip down to Paragaph 18 for Christ's Birth, 1-18 is the genology of Christ which was important at the time Mathrew was written but with the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD and again in 132 AD became less important):
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PVA.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PVB.HTM#GOSP.MAT.2.23

Here is the Vatican's discription of Mathrews:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PV9.HTM

St. Luke also addreses the Birth of Christ:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PWK.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PWL.HTM

The other two Gospels (St. John and St. Mark) both start with Jesus's Cousin St John the Baptist. The Christmas Story is ignored in their books going stright into the teachings of Christ.

[DustMolecule]

20. Thank you for that beautiful synoposis

:-)

As far as the genealogy of Jesus (the Christ) goes...don't downplay the importance/significance of the Temple being burned down (and records lost) in 70 A.D.....it was enough time for people to follow the genealogy back to David (and to Abraham)...God "delivered" on his promise. There was no further need for 'records' since the truth has been delivered.

But God, in his graciousness (and part of 'The Plan') allows for those who 'won't believe' or who 'have their own agenda'.

on edit: changed "and the Abraham" to "and to Abraham" (stupid typo@me)

[happyslug]

25. The Genealogy record was important for the Jews of Judea

Thus we have TWO list of Christ's ancestors Mathews and Luke's. The lists are the same till David then diverge, Mathews going via one Son of David (Solomon) and Luke going through another son of David (Nathan). Most theologian go with the Luke's list with Nathan being the son of David Jesus is descendented from). The basis is Christ is referred to as descendant from David NOT David and Solomon. Most Bible Scholars beleive Luke was written after Mathrews and thus "Corrections" were made in errors in Mathrews. Thus these are the two reason Scholars goes with Luke in this matter.

Anyway all of this is moot given the destruction of the Jewish Temple. Now some of the Records of the Temple may have survived till the Sacking of Rome in 460 AD by the Vandals (There are reports of the Vandals taking items from the Roman Achrives that were from the Jewish Temple). These two destructions destroyed almost all the records.

In the Dark Ages the Monks did copy books to perserve them. It appears the Monks made a good faith effort to copy all the books their had (Thus we have various reports on Ancient Rome and Greece including attacks on Christianity, all preserved by the Monks). Linen based Paper lasts about 1000 years thus unless someone in the Darks ages copied the book, it was NOT perserved. Sometime what we have are only fragments of a copy (For example Homer's "Returns", Homer's thrid Epic poem on how the rest of the Greeks returned from the Trojan War, we have some of the stories, parts of others but not the entire Epic poem).

All of this affects our view of the times of Christ for these are are some of the "fiters" of history. When we read ancient history we must understand the writer had access to information now long gone. Difference must be made to the writers for their had access to information we do not, but also remember while their had access the writers also had bias which we can NOT truely control for given the passage of time.

Thus we do not know which version of Christ's Ancestors was the one in the Temple. At the time prior to the Vandal's sacking of Rome some of those records may still have survived. Access to these records would explain some Catholic Doctrines adopted during that time period that were rejected by the Protestants for not being based on what is in the bible.

My comment on all of this is when you read anything, read it carefully with some background on the topic such as given by the Vatican site (and the footnotes). Be careful on these background notes and footnotes but more often than not the notes will help you understand what the writer was writing about.

Also remember that prior to the invention of the Printing Press books were written to be READ to large group of people as entertainment NOT read like we read books today. Books were to expensive for most people to own, so people would "rent" a book and a reader to read the book to them and their friends. Given that most people were orgainzed along Relgious lines prior to the 1800s, religous texts (and books that affects religion) were more popular than non-religious texts (What we call Horror Stores were also popular but generally such ghost-stores were not written down but told by story tellers instead of readers). Thus the writters of Books before the Printing Press wrote the book to be HEARD by a group of people in a large group not to be read by one person at a time.

The same with the Bible, the stories were to be HEARD. In most churches today you have "Readings" of the bible. This is how MOST people learn their bible prior to the invention of the Printing Press. After the Readings people would discuss what had been read with the Speaker taking charge of the presentation.

Just some background on why the bible is written as it is.

[progressoid]

23. Don't get all bogged down in the 'Virgin' issue

Religious scholars are still arguing over that one. Some take it literally. Some say virgin means she was betrothed but not yet married. Others say it just means 'maiden' or 'damsel'. Of course it has a lot more juice to say that she was actually impregnated by God, so that one gets a lot more attention.

BTW, the suggestion that you just read the Bible ain't really gonna help. Because even the Bible has conflicting stories about J's birth. Most Christians just sort of mix them together in a Messiahs' Birth Stew.