"A good Christian woman"

[Walt Starr]

That's how Topeka neighbors described Lisa Montgomery.

My heart goes out to the family of Victoria Jo Stinnett.

[Pachamama]

1. Yikes....would they say that still?

:eyes:

[LiberalFighter]

73. They need to have the standards lower so that they qualify as good Xtians

[JI7]

2. who are they supposed to be ?

[Walt Starr]

3. Lisa Montgomery murdered Virginia Jo Stinnett

in order to rip Virginia's baby from her womb to claim as her own.

[Arkana]

4. Good Lord

That is FRIGHTENING. :scared:

Fundie values at work again, I guess.

[Walt Starr]

5. She allegedly claimed to be pregnant to her pastor

her husband and her neighbors for months, saying she was due in December. Apparently nobody knew she wasn't.

It is possible her husband is still a suspect, though, as the FBI is being closed mouthed about him.

[buckettgirl]

107. i heard on the news the other night

that she actually was pregnant at one time, but that she lost the baby, and it wasn't clear when that had happened.

btw, I am from Hays, so that came on the news from Wichita.

when I heard about that, and that she called her hubby and told him that she had given birth and to meet her in a parking lot... omg, that about made me sick. Crazy, fucking, psycho bitch from hell.
I am glad that baby was ok.

[Pachamama]

7. Maybe as her Defense, Lisa Montgomery will claim "God told me to do it"...

And like I said earlier, will her neigbors, Pastor etc. still say she is a good christian woman....

Hey, the Fundies still think that Bush is a good christian...what a joke....


:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

10. According to the FBI, she has confessed to the crime

and the crime could definitely carry a death penalty.

As far as I'm concerned, if Scott Peterson gets the death penalty, Lisa Montgomery also deserves the death penalty. Anything short of the death penalty for this "good Christian woman" is a travesty of justice.

[blondeatlast]

42. You either believe in the DP or you don't; you can't "pick and choose"

who is "deserving."

Sheesh--she's clearly mentally unstable, does that make it okay because she MIGHT have had values you don't like?

[Walt Starr]

71. The DP exists

so yes, I can. Juries do it all the time.

[janx]

90. Whoa, wait a minute.

People have been deciding who must get the death penalty since the beginning of time.
I have tended against the death penalty for the most part, but I have a problem with those who let people out of jail who kill again and again.

Our justice system doesn't involve much justice at all at times.

[Debs]

98. NO Death Penalty

The things you do to people are never about who THEY are but about who YOU are and we shouldnt be the kind of people that want to kill people. Whatever the provocation

[skygazer]

108. First of all, I am against the death penalty

For anyone and any crime. I do not believe in an eye for an eye.

But why do you say this woman was "clearly mentally unstable?" She may have been - but how is it clear?

It disturbs me that when a woman kills, she is almost always labeled as mentally ill, even before the facts in regards to her mental state are brought out. This was a horrible, nasty and strange crime but there's really nothing about it on the surface that definitely points toward any mental illness. She wanted something and she lied and killed for it. People do it all the time.

Was Scott Peterson "clearly mentally unstable?" He killed his wife and unborn child. How about that Hacking guy, who killed his wife and dumped her in a garbage heap? I don't recall too many people saying he was mentally ill - only that he was a manipulator and a serial liar.

It just seems to me like a double standard to always assume a woman is mentally unstable when she commits a murder. It's almost like providing an excuse where men are rarely given the benefit of the doubt in that area.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

110. See, I don't see it as an excuse, but an explanation. Take this situation,

could one in their sound mind commit such a heinous act. My opinion, hell no.

Same thing for any sick inhumane bastard that does such things. Should they be set free? Not on your life!! But to say that they are NOT mentally challenged in some regard seems somehow odd to me.

I agree, it should NOT be sexist. ANYone who murders (not in self-defense), maims, rapes, torture, etc. is clearly in a different mental state than those of us who wouldn't. Man, woman - no matter. Dahmer was one that I recall it being such a silly argument. SANE???? NO!! FUCK NO! Should he be a free man. FUCK NO!!

[skygazer]

111. Well, I agree with you as far as that goes

I can't imagine anyone in their right mind committing any of those crimes. It just drives me nuts when it's automatically assumed that women must be unhinged when they choose to kill but it's perfectly normal for men. An odd thing to be annoyed about but IMO, defeating sexism means taking the bad along with the good!

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

112. Yes, and I guess I never really made a connection like that before.

In mind mind, it was always a moot point. Like... why the hell are we arguing about this freak's mental state?? Clearly it's totally whacked!! I never noticed the media spin, attributed more to women than men... I will pay more attention to that and argue that EVERYONE is certifiable! :)

On edit, I am also very much against the DP and don't think these people should go free, either. I don't have all the answers, but I sure don't think taking lives answers anything.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. I don't believe in the Death Penalty....even for us evil Christians

[UTDemocrat8204]

26. That happened here

with this guy in his 20's who shot his parents and then butchered their bodies. So gross. In court though he said God told him to do it and because they were yelling and being mean to him. Heh.

[UTDemocrat8204]

27. The father reunited with the baby!

Here's the link: http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/12/18/missouri.fetus/index.html

[Walt Starr]

37. Yes, I know

Kidnapping the baby and taking it across state lines is what turned this into a federal death penalty case.

What's the matter with Kansas?

[UTDemocrat8204]

25. I read and saw that

on tv. Heh heh. That's truly sick and disgusting and people still called the woman who did that a good Christian woman?! And here I thought murder was a sin...

[Pachamama]

6. The Neighbors - THEY said she was a good Christian Woman... n/t

:eyes:

[demwing]

8. Was the victim getting an abortion? What's the sick twist?

What is the twisted justification? Is she like the Christians who bomb clinics?

How can you call a muderer a good Christian?

[Walt Starr]

9. I'm not calling her anything other than what she is, a murderess

Her neighbors called her a "good Christian woman".

She had a miscarriage this summer and didn;t tell anybody, so she stole a baby after murdering the baby's mother in order to obtain it, since the baby had not yet been born.

She performed a post-mortem caesarian section on Victoria Jo Stinnett, this "good Christian woman" (as described by her Topeka neighbors).

[demwing]

33. I'm sorry Walt

I was using the rhetorical "you."

I wasn't directing this at you personally. Sorry for the confusion :)

[AntiCoup2K4]

20. Pat Robertson did that once

Pleaded for the life of an ax-murderer turned prison evangelist. Of course she was imprisoned in Texas, under the reign of a certain primate, so not only did Pat's efforts fail, but Junior the dumbass openly mocked the woman's pleas for life on TV.

So while Robertson's efforts ultimately failed, he did convince many people that Karla Faye Tucker was a "good Christian woman" in the process.

[LoZoccolo]

22. I think they're just surprised.

There was a history teacher at my high school who murdered a prostitute, and I was surprised because like a year before that he was a real personable guy with a good sense of humor. I don't think anyone's trying to justify anything; it's just shock most likely.

[Desert Liberal]

96. Isn't that the very first commandment?

Thou shalt not kill. I seem to remember that somewhere or other in that book the Christians seem to live by ( the REAL Christians, GW and murdering-for-a-baby woman excluded).
Wow. So then being a 'good Christian' does not require that you actually OBEY the commandments? They are suggestions perhaps?
Did that crazy bitch stop and ask herself, 'Hmmm, what WOULD Jesus do?' I think not.

[Debs]

99. NO

The very first commandment is: I am the Lord thy God thou shalt have no other God before me

[Desert Liberal]

106. Oh...

Guess I haven't been reading my Bible lately. :shrug:

[blue neen]

11. You know, this really is the saddest story.

Victoria was still alive when her mother found her. She died later at the hospital.

That means she was still alive when that "good Christian woman" cut that baby out of her.

Just exactly what is the definition of a good Christian these days?
Geez. :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

12. Well, Bush is a "good Christian"

and he's responsible for the murder of thousands of innocents.

[blue neen]

16. Yep.

Exactly. He's following the Ten Commandments to the letter, isn't he? What a hypocrite.

[orpupilofnature57]

59. thats the thing the only ONE qualified to say, said judge not, so NOPE

[blue neen]

91. Yep.

We're talking about murdering innocent people here. It will be up to a higher power ultimately to judge Bush for that SIN. We can judge him for the CRIME of it.

[Catherine Vincent]

13. Very hard not to want her to get the DP.

Very hard.

[UTDemocrat8204]

29. That picture is so

oy. Bush looks like he's thinking "help me, I'm soo bored here!" :eyes:

[XemaSab]

84. Chelsea's like

"Ew! Get AWAY from me! MOM, he's like, breathing on me!"

[musette_sf]

14. On one of the Yahoo boards

someone posted that they had just seen a CNN clip, which showed a */Cheney sign outside the house in which the arrest was made.

Anyone else seen this??

Meanwhile, it's a great ad for Neocon/BFEE Family Values. We love the fetus, and must protect the fetus... but DAMN that container is a bitch to get open!

[Walt Starr]

18. I'll watch the next time they run headlines

I'd love to get a screen capture of it!

[Carson]

32. John Wayne Gacy was a Democrat and wrote in a letter that

he was disappointed Bush was elected in '88 and he would have voted for Dukakis, if he were out of prison at the time.

Who cares that this woman had a Bush/Cheney sign. Attributing this horrendous act to politics is beyond stupid.

[musette_sf]

34. not attributing

just observing

[Carson]

70. Yes, but by pointing out the fact, what are you trying to say?

You could just have easily said the killer drove a Saab, and by pointing that out, you mean what? That somehow driving that type of car makes one more susceptible to murdering a pregnant woman?

My point is your observation was meaningless, if you meant it as some sort of jab against *Bush voters.

[musette_sf]

93. it's an observation

and I am not quite sure why you are bothered by it. It's not meaningless. It's a statement these people chose to make. It is worth noticing and it is part of the context of the incident.

[Carson]

95. How is this woman having a * sign part of the context of a murder?

I am bothered by it because it makes little sense, logically.

[musette_sf]

102. The family supported indirect, impersonal murder in their name

as do all * supporters.

You are really a hard case, Carson. The observation that the lawn of a murderess had a * sign has a story and a context. You seem to want to detach that from the tragedy for some reason.

* supporters = support murder
* supporter = murdered someone

Contextually, the lack of compassion for other humans is shown in this person's political choices and personal choices.

I hope this clears things up for you.

[Carson]

115. The sign had nothing to do with the crime committed.

Are you saying *Bush voters are more likely to personally commit murder? If so, the crux of my argument is that is logically unsound, and I do want to detach it from the case at hand for that reason only.

I'm not intentionally trying to be a "hard case." I just want to be perfectly clear on what you are saying.

[Pepperbelly]

56. Ted Bundy wasn't though, was he? nt

[Walt Starr]

57. I think Bundy coming off as a nice guy was perhaps the single biggest

reason he was able to murder so many women.

[Pepperbelly]

58. yep ... and ironically -

if he'd stayed out of his car, he would've never been nailed. The schmuck couldn't drive for shit.

[Carson]

69. I agree.

Bundy was a handsome, clean-cut and charming person to all but his victims.

John Wayne Gacy was active in many charitable causes and entertained children in hospitals by dressing as a clown.

Society wants to believe these types of criminals look like monsters and behave as such at all times. The unfortunate truth is that they are not always easy to spot. Very frightening.

[Carson]

67. And your point is...? n/t

[Pepperbelly]

78. my point is that a spincter says 'what'. nt

[Carson]

92. Gotcha. I'm glad we got that cleared up with an intelligent debate. nt

[Debs]

100. The point is

People aren't just one thing

[UTDemocrat8204]

30. OMG

Let's blame it all on the liberals! I'd love to show some of them the Bush/Cheney sticker on her house. HA HA.

[Catherine Vincent]

15. Get a load of this conservative baiter on yahoo:

http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=37138445&tid=appregnantwomanslain&sid=37138445&mid=1

I guess they thought their first message would draw the attention away from the fact that the woman that did it was probably a conservative.

[Cha]

21. I saw that picture in People magazine..and

loved how pretty Chelsea looks and what a dumb fucking looking goon bush is.

[blackangrydem]

17. Seems that whenever a freak murderer is caught

the neighbors say something like this:

"He was a good neighbor"
"My kids thought the world of her"
"He was a good family man"
"She was a Good Christian Woman"
"I thought he always minded his own business"

The operative word here is "was" or "thought".

[Walt Starr]

19. I can think of several who weren't

Ted Kazynski
Jeffrey Daumer
Timothy McVeigh

I'm sure there are others...

[blackangrydem]

24. McVeigh was a "good soldier"

gone bad.

[Walt Starr]

36. Actually, no he wasn't

Look at his record. He was a sorry excuse for a soldier.

[blackangrydem]

83. Wrong. Did you even try to get the facts, or do you just make 'em up?

He got promoted, re-enlisted, had the initiative to try out for special forces, and fought in the Gulf War.

He was not "a sorry excuse for a soldier". Although he clearly turned out to be a sorry excuse for a human being.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/03/29/profile.mcveigh/



While at Fort Riley, McVeigh reenlisted in the Army. He aspired to be a member of the Special Forces and in 1990 was accepted into a 3-week school to assess his potential for joining that elite unit. He had barely begun to prepare himself physically for Special Forces training when, in January 1991, the 1st Infantry Division was sent to participate in the Persian Gulf War. As a gunnery sergeant, McVeigh was in action during late February, 1991. Pursuing his desire of joining the Special Forces, he left the Persian Gulf theater early and went to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, where he took a battery of IQ, personality and aptitude tests to qualify for Special Forces. However, his participation in the Persian Gulf War had left him no time to prepare himself physically for the demands of Special Forces training. McVeigh was unable to endure a 90-minute march with a 45-pound pack, and he withdrew from the program after two days.

This disappointing experience left him facing years of active service due to his reenlistment at Fort Riley. The Army was downsizing however, and after 3 1/2 years of service, McVeigh took the offer of an early discharge and got out of the military in the fall of 1991.

[gaia_gardener]

23. "He was such a quiet man"

I've worked with more than one person that I couldn't help but think "he was such a quiet man". Just people that would twinge my antenna. Probably they never have or will do anything, but they were just creepy enough.

[Disturbed]

28. A bad Christian?

Hmmm....

[LiberalFighter]

75. Can't be any bad Christians can there?

If they did anything bad they can't be Christian... right?

Reality is that those who do bad things are just pretending to be Christians.

[XemaSab]

85. Both of my pastors...

...have boils on their foreheads.

Maybe it's time to go to a different church.

[UTDemocrat8204]

31. I used to be a quiet

person around people I didn't know very well and then when I was around my friends or a lone I'd be totally different. Now I'm the same around everybody cause I'm more comfortable in my skin and stuff. So it's the shy and quiet ones you sometimes have to watch. ;)

[blondeatlast]

39. Precisely; my neighbors don't know me intimately enough

to make a judgment.

But if I went berserk and offed someone in a twisted manner what would they say about me?

Do you think any of them would actually tell the bloodthirsty, goon press that they didn't know me well?

Not bloody likely, not at all.

[quaoar]

35. If she committed murder

she obviously was NOT a good Christian woman.

Did you start this thread as some sort of proof that Christianity is depraved and its followers are hypocrites?

[Walt Starr]

38. Sorry, you don't get to pick and choose who's Christian and who isn't

If somebody says they're Christian, then they're Christian. That's how every other religion (and lack of religion) in the world gets treated so that's how Christianity gets treated, too.

Don't like it? I suggest you scream loudly that Osama bin Laden is not a real Muslim.

[blondeatlast]

40. The "neighbors" said--that isn't any proof she really was.

How well could your neighbors describe you?

I guarantee mine would get it pretty much wrong.

[Walt Starr]

47. She went to a christian church

she even showed the baby to her Christian pastor.

She's as much a Christian as bin Laden is a Muslim.

[quaoar]

60. Many church pews are filled with hypocrites every Sunday

Someone does not become a Christian by singing Amazing Grace louder than everyone else.

Calling yourself a Christian does not make you one.

But you have an agenda, Walt, and you look for examples like this to demonstrate that there is something wrong with Christianity.

I don't accept people like this woman as a representative of the religion I practice any more than you accept the DLC as representative of the party you belong to.

It sickens me to see Christianity used by weasals like Falwell and the Christian Coalition for their disgusting political ends. But that doesn't mean I will abandon my faith. It just means I have to fight harder, just like the countless number of other liberal and progressive-minded Christians who attend church, have faith in Christ and are sick and tired of being attacked for it.

[Walt Starr]

61. YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT I HAVE AN AGENDA

This woman is no more a Christian than bin Laden is a Muslim or Stalin was an Atheist!

There, my agenda has been exposed!

[quaoar]

64. So then what's your point?

[Walt Starr]

68. If you don't get it now

you never will

[quaoar]

82. Well, now that's real adult

[Cheswick2.0]

65. he didn't say she wasn't christian....just not a good one

[salin]

41. I think that in some conservative churches they council

AWAY from getting help for real mental health issues. The "prayer" method does not work for the severely mentally ill. I don't know that there is a rash of women doing horrible things to their children or to get children (in this case), or if it is that the media has realized these stories sell so they hype them more... but it seems to be a recurring theme - very disturbed women who seem NOT to get any help. It is my extrapolation, based on minimal direct experience but knowledge of some friends with issues being counseled away from seeking mental health help (unless going to a "good Christian counselor), that wonders if that is a recurring undercurrent in these stories.

[janx]

46. I've wondered the same thing, salin.

And in the cult world--not real Chrisianity but the cult stuff--women are not valued much.

[Walt Starr]

49. Which goes to my whole point about this thread

She is no more a Christian than bin LAden is a Muslim.

[RetroLounge]

52. Exactly!

RL

[janx]

55. You're right, she isn't. I don't know what church she went to,

but she's no Christian regardless.

[Ms_Mary]

43. I hate it when people do that

OBVIOUSLY, she's not so good and not so Christian. So don't come out saying she was. "A good Christian woman" doesn't murder a pregnant woman and cut the baby from her belly to steal it. Period.

[Walt Starr]

50. Yep, but they sure did it with bin Laden, too

He's no more a Muslim than this woman is a Christian.

[bush_is_wacko]

44. You know

when I first heard about this story, I was waiting to see if the perpetrator might end up being my "good Christian" ex-coworker! The entitlement she felt to have children and tell me how to raise my own despite the fact she had none was astounding. Never a day went by for 6 months that I didn't hear that woman belittle someone with children and complain that her church could and should donate up to $50,000 to her and her husbands effort to adopt or undergo fertility treatment! I'm pretty sure she slashed my tire because she didn't like the fact that I had children and she didn't! At least the guy who replaced my tire told me it looked kind of suspicous! I haven't had any problems since I left that place!

[blondeatlast]

45. The NEIGHBORS said; how well do yours know you?

Did they know that she may very well have been suffering post-partum depression?

If a healthy birth can trigger it, why the hell wouldn't a miscarriage?

It's a horrendous crime, indeed, but why are we allowing neighbors to be her judge? She clearly is not a healthy woman, for pity's sake.

And Walt, next time you bitch about the press, think about your citiation of this article.

[Walt Starr]

48. Apparently her pastor thought she was a good Christian, too

because she brought the baby to him.

[blondeatlast]

54. Fine--she's also clearly in need of therapy or drugs.

Why aren't we attacking that?

Oh, I know...

Her NEIGHBORS didn't say that.

[Walt Starr]

62. I'm just serving up some well deserved crow

She is no more a Christian than bin Laden is a Muslim or Stalin was an Atheist.

Get it?

[blondeatlast]

72. True that. nt

[Philostopher]

76. Her purported 'moral guidance system' had little to do with what she did.

It took me a while to figure out where you were going with it, Walt, but I think I did finally catch on -- please feel free to tell me if I missed your point, here, but I think I get it.

Saying that whatever adopted moral guidance system she claimed to follow was the cause of her committing this gruesome act is parallel to blaming Islam for terrorism or atheism for totalitarianism just because some terrorists call themselves Muslims or some totalitarian dictators have called themselves atheists.

Individual acts of oppression and murder usually come from individual oppressors or murderers; societal or cultural acts of cruelty may come from the manipulation of large gullible groups, but they're usually still started by an individual or group of individuals -- they don't come out of the individual's belief system, but out of psychological, social or cultural short-circuits in the individuals themselves.

Which is to say this woman may well have been a Christian, but it wasn't why she murdered a pregnant woman and performed an impromptu C-section on the corpse to steal what became, when it left its mother's body, a baby she very much wanted.

And Stalin may well have been an atheist, but it wasn't atheism that caused him to corrupt the communist political philosophy into a totalitarian regime.

It would seem only sensible, but it's awfully easy to whip people into a frenzy over such things -- it wouldn't be fair to blame Christianity for her behavior any more than it is to blame Islam for terrorists or atheism for Stalin.

[Walt Starr]

77. Give that man a Padron Anniversario Maduro Torpedo!

Bingo, somebody gets it!

[CarbonDate]

87. The reverse is also true....

...if somebody is a good person, it has nothing to do with their religion, either.

In short, morality has nothing to do with religion. The two are entirely unrelated. The end.

[skygazer]

109. Please see post #108

I am the first person to sympathise with someone who has mental illness issues but I fail to see how this crime makes this woman "clearly" in need of therapy or drugs. Why when a crime is committed by a woman is she always assumed to be mentally ill?

She's clearly in need of jail - whether or not she's in need of therapy is up to a doctor to determine.

[RetroLounge]

51. Hey, Walt, give her a break.

She followed 9 out 10 commandments. So she killed someone. 90% is still pretty good.

Whoops, forgot that Coveting one. 80%.

Still, a passing grade.

RL

[Walt Starr]

53. She lied, too

Still batting .700, though.

[XemaSab]

86. Stealing

We're dropping to 60%...

oh well, D's get degrees. :-)

[leftofthedial]

66. she acted like religions have acted for millenia

so why not?

[Cheswick2.0]

103. and all non religious too

we know what Atheists have done in communist countries. It's not about religion it's about human nature. Even if you find it convenient to pretend otherwise.

[Walt Starr]

105. I think a better statement would be

She acted in a way that many human beings act.

[greenbriar]

74. My nephew and his wife know the murdered lady and her husband

the family is devastated

[MuseRider]

79. Topeka neighbors?

Hey Walt, where did you hear or see that? Just wondering because she is not from Topeka but from a small town about 30 miles south of here.

Just trying to save a little something for my town that suffers enough from housing Phelps and his clan.

Edit to add link

http://www.cjonline.com/stories/121904/kan_melvernbaby.shtml

[Walt Starr]

80. CNN

:shrug:

I guess CNN just used the closest big town to her town.

[MuseRider]

81. Thanks Walt. n/t

[MADem]

88. I'd run DNA tests on her other two kids

Just to CHECK. Could be she got good at butchery with practice.

[Walt Starr]

89. Good point!

Or there's always the possibility that in the past she stole a child that was already born.

[jellybelly]

94. what christian

would be proud to describe a murderer as a 'good christian'?
I am trying to be very tolerant of Christians, especially the misguided ones that voted for Bush but this is too much.

[talk hard]

97. a murderous "good christian" woman

Hope she rots in hell.

[robbedvoter]

101. Begs the question: what's a BAD Christian woman?

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Undercover Owl]

113. disgusting!

This is the worst, most nauseating event that I have heard about in a really, really long time!
I can't even put into words how horrific a crime this was. At first when I heard the story, I thought it must be the work of a satan-worshipper. Turns out it's a church-going "Christian" lady.

[rockydem]

114. this was a red state crime

It comes out of their cultural morass. It's part of their great 'values'.