Did everyone else already know Abe Lincoln was gay?

[redqueen]

Why didn't anyone tell me?

NOW the "Log Cabin Republicans" moniker makes sense!


A Republican hero, but was Abe Lincoln gay?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1376919,00.html

It is news guaranteed to make many Republicans squirm. Was Abraham Lincoln, founder of the party now seeking a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in America, actually gay himself?
A new book, published next month, certainly thinks so. The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln by C.A. Tripp produces evidence that one of America's greatest Presidents had a long-term relationship with a youthful friend, Joshua Speed, and shared his bed with David Derickson, captain of his bodyguards.

Tripp, a former researcher for sex scientist Alfred Kinsey and an influential gay writer, includes asides by many of Lincoln's close friends. 'He was not very fond of girls, as he seemed to me,' his stepmother, Sarah Bush Lincoln, once told a friend.

It also includes a diary excerpt by one upper-class Washington woman who wrote of Derickson: 'There is a Bucktail soldier here devoted to the President, drives with him, and when Mrs L is not home, sleeps with him. What stuff!'

more...

[dolo amber]

1. He was having an illicit affair with a woodchuck

:o

[StopTheMorans]

2. that's what gay is?

wow, i feel like a real dumbass! :crazy:

[JimmyJazz]

3. We've been wanting to tell you for some time now, but we

didn't think you could handle it. :shrug:

:P

[Zuni]

4. Abe wore womens underwear to cabinet meetings

[redqueen]

6. Seriously?!

You must be putting me on...

I do want to read those letters between him and Speed. hehehe... Speed... :)

[Zuni]

11. I am kidding

[saracat]

5. Cute. Now I heard that they were outing Republicans

but this goes too far! Lincoln didn't sponsor any ant-gay agenda!

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. I have always heard

that is just a crazy rumor.

[On the Road]

8. I Thought James Buchanan

was America's only gay president.

[Zuni]

17. And even that isn't proven

but Buchanan is perhaps the best candidate for being gay out of all of the Presidents, Clinton and JFK being the most obviously hetero

[MrModerate]

42. Hard to imagine him as "gay"

--When his administration was so unrelievedly grim.

[MrModerate]

9. Yeah, that's what the Log Cabin monicker is all about . . .

But it's far from certain that he was actually gay. From what I read about Mary Todd Lincoln, she was certainly enough to make a man question the benefits of heterosexuality, but whether Abe went there or not, I don't think we'll ever know.

There's a apparently a new book out that examines in (reportedly) excruciating detail every little hint about Lincoln's private life and concludes that he was indeed gay, but I haven't read it and will resist commenting.

I've read other such suppositions before, and none o' them dawgs hunted, but who knows?

Here's for me a more interesting question: Given Lincoln's public and private behavior, what difference would being gay have made/did it make one way or the other?

Certainly if he was consciously gay in the time period, he would have had to conceal it, and the act of concealment would have done something to his psyche.

[Zuni]

12. I personally do not believe Lincoln was gay

I have heard no solid evidence to confirm it

[MrModerate]

20. Yeah, I was trying to be even-handed, but I don't buy it either. n/t

[keischin]

82. Haven't you seen that music video? nt

[Phillycat]

18. Oh, boy.

From what I read about Mary Todd Lincoln, she was certainly enough to make a man question the benefits of heterosexuality,

God, I hope you're kidding. Otherwise you and I are going to have words.

[MrModerate]

What words did you have in mind?

The ones I was thinking of were "neurotic," "harridan," and "shrew."

[Phillycat]

So, let me get this straight.

You think that if a man is married to a woman who is...the words you just posted, he will "turn gay"? You think that's how it works? That homosexuality is "brought on" by bitchy women?

[MrModerate]

37. Well, no, actually

To quote myself, "enough to make a man question the benefits of heterosexuality"

No turning, no bringing on, just questioning the benefits of.

It was, after all, a joke.

And if you couldn't tell, then that's clearly my fault.

However, I did have an unfortunate acquaintance in college who had a genius for falling in love with guys who were on the verge of coming out of the closet. She wasn't bitchy or in any way objectionable, just unlucky in love. We, cruelly, would point out that "after going out with X, so-and-so decided to give up on women."

[Misunderestimator]

30. I can't believe you just said that...

making your original post even more sexist.

[MrModerate]

39. I take it you think it unfair to call Mary Todd Lincoln

A harridan and a shrew? Or a neurotic?

[alarimer]

49. She was mentally ill

by all accounts that I have read. So it is unfair to use those words.

[redqueen]

51. Neurotic fits... it's the other ones that scream PIG

[MrModerate]

61. By that rule, if some guy is mentally ill . . .

To also call him a prick or bullheaded is unacceptably sexist?

I think you've filed your hair-trigger a bit too much.

[redqueen]

65. No, just rude and unnecessary.

:)

[MrModerate]

68. As long as it's just rude and unecessary, I'm OK

It was the accusation of pigism that hurt.

Seriously. There are all sorts of gender-specific terms (insults, if you prefer) that nevertheless convey truth.

True, Mary Todd Lincoln seems to have been mentally ill. Perhaps it's crass to call her anything else but "mentally ill." However, I'm not willing to so restrict my language that anyone who's mentally ill is off limits for any other description. I ain't that sensitive.

I can both feel someone's pain over the centuries and make a joke/comment about them. If that makes me a boor, sobeit

[Phillycat]

69. If the pigism fits...

:eyes:

[MrModerate]

74. Whew -- tough crowd! n/t

[Phillycat]

77. Hmm, yes, you might find it to be a bit tough around here...

if you habitually use words like "shrew" and "harridan". :eyes:

[MrModerate]

88. Actually, I reserve such terms for people like

Mary Todd Lincoln, Lady Bracknell (also "gorgon," in her case), Margaret Thatcher, Willy's Katherine, Mdm. Chiang Kai-Chek, and a few others.

Luckily, those folks don't come up very often -- even on DU, so I won't need to make it a habit.

[redqueen]

70. Works for me.

But then I tend to like boorish people.

[meegbear]

10. True story - the very first time I put on NPR ...

the very first words I heard was "Who cares if Lincoln was gay!". It was an author who wrote a book about the sex lives of Presidents.

[Zuni]

13. I am NOT convinced

It sounds like this is pure sleaze generated to sell books

[madrchsod]

14. who cares?

he`s dead and can`t defend himself. now christ on the other hand ran around with 12 guys his adult of his life,never a mention of a girl friend and what about his "teen years"? yup, sounds like a "gay lifestyle" to me.

[Phillycat]

16. "Defend himself"?

Why does he need to "defend himself"? Is there something inherently wrong with being gay?

[hickman1937]

33. No there is not

Just as there is nothing inheretly wrong with being a woman. It is sleazy to make unprovable claims against people no longer able to defend themselves. Gender and sexuality go to the core of who we are.

[ProfessorGAC]

75. Yes, Defend Himself!

It doesn't matter the subject, janesez! Take it out of the gender preference realm for a second.

If someone is telling an untruth about any aspect of my life, i should be able to refute it. There is no need for an intrinsically good or evil aspect to it. Just whether it's true or not. Someone says i'm gay. It's not true. Being gay isn't inherently evil, but the statement is a lie! I should be able to defend against that lie, whether it's ok to be gay or not. Right?

Someone could say i'm an avid stamp collector. Well, i'm not. I should be in a position to tell everyone there, "No, i don't collect stamps." Not a matter of defense of some right or wrong position, merely setting the record straight. The truth should matter, no?

Abe doesn't have that luxury to defend what he would know to be true. The whole dead for 139 years thing! So, this is a scurilous attack, without any substantive proof, for which no defense can be structured. It's sensationalistic nonsense.
The Professor

[redqueen]

19. Defend himself?

So you think it's shameful?

:shrug:

[Phillycat]

21. Heh! Beat ya! ;)

[redqueen]

26. Couldn't resist piling on. :)

[Zuni]

25. Well, I am sure Abe wouldn't want to be thought of as gay

and neither would I, even though I have no problem with Gays. Especially if it is not true, then it is a slander about you, even if you do not think it is bad.
This book is written to hurt Lincoln's memory,period.

[Phillycat]

28. Why is it a slander?

[Zuni]

47. Because it is very possibly a lie about him

a slander is an unsubstantiated rumor that attacks a person.

You might not think it is wrong, but others will look down upon it

[Phillycat]

54. It does not "attack". That is the part of the slander definition that

doesn't fit. The only people who would "look down upon it" are bigots and homophobes. Just because a homophobe thinks it's a bad thing does not mean it's slander by the word's definition.

[redqueen]

56. Bingo!

Why is this hard to understand?

[Zuni]

60. A lot of people would be upset by this if it were done to them

and I am no exception. Simply, people spreading rumors about your sex life is unsavory and can cause emotional distress

[redqueen]

63. He's long dead. Do you really think he minds?

What about da Vinci... are the rumors about him hurtful to him, do you think?

[Zuni]

57. If the person who is being rumored about is upset by the rumors

and it causes him personal grief, it is slander.

Abe certainly did not want to be thought of as gay. If someone spread rumors about me I would be upset

[Phillycat]

62. You cannot speak for Abe Lincoln.

You have no idea what he thought or felt about anything.

If someone spread rumors that you had a big dick, you'd be upset? That you were secretly a millionaire? You'd be upset? That you're an amazing painter, you'd be upset?

You would only be upset about rumors spread about you if they were NEGATIVE rumors. There is nothing inherently negative about being gay. Only bigots and homophobes think there is.

[Zuni]

76. If they spread rumors I was having an illicit affair with someone I would

Someone is accusing Abe Lincoln not only of homosexuality, but of adultery.
If someone accused me of having illicit affairs that were not true I would, absolutely.
If someone spread rumors that I had sex with a girl, even an attractive one, that I didn't sleep with I would be upset.

ps---besides, I do have a large penis and am a secret millionaire

[Phillycat]

78. Hee!

Well, then...how YOU doin'? ;-)

[Zuni]

79. Livin large!

:evilgrin:

[Phillycat]

80. I know what to get YOU for xmas!

Bigger boxers! :evilgrin:

[Zuni]

83. try a tube sock, for warmth!

:hi:

Honestly, though, I didn't mean to imply that one should be ashamed of being gay.
I just meant a lot of people would be upset if someone was someone was delving into their sex life, and spreading rumors about their sex life

[Phillycat]

86. That is true.

Truthfully, I don't think it's any of anybody's business what anyone does in the sack. I felt the same way about Monica...

[Zuni]

90. I agree totally

People's sex lives should be private.
But if Abe Lincoln really didn't have these illicit affairs, then it is doubly hurtful, because it was made up.


The whole thing smacks of sleaze and sensationalism to me, and quite frankly is an area of history with NO revelance to Abe Lincoln's role as President or as a public figure

[redqueen]

31. Do you think the letters are fakes?

IMO it doesn't hurt his memory... if true, it completes it.

[Misunderestimator]

36. LOL.... "even though I have no problems with Gays."

Funny... I have no problem with people thinking I'm straight, because until they know me or at least know people who know me, that's what they assume. Why would you have a problem with people thinking you're gay? Would it be slander for someone to think that I might be straight because someone might know something about my past which might lead them to believe I had been with men? I don't think it would be.

[Zuni]

45. anything not true that people say about you could be called a slander

[jonnyblitz]

50. people are so transparent and they don't even realize it...

funny yet sad. oh well. :shrug:

[Zuni]

52. you missed the point

if this is not true and done to hurt Lincoln or push an agenda, it is slander.

My feelings about gays have no bearing on what I meant

[redqueen]

55. How do you propose to determine the 'true' motives

of the person who wrote this book? Hm?

[Misunderestimator]

59. But the fact remains that MOST people might consider it slander

to be called gay whereas those same people would NOT consider it slander to be called straight. No matter what your feelings (even though you DID say in your post that you would not want to be considered gay).

[Zuni]

64. Because I am not/it would be an untruth

it is not because of a hatred of homosexuals. Any untruth about my personal life would cause me distress in one way or another

[DelawareValleyDem]

48. Bad choice of words

maybe you could change it to "He's dead and can't set the record straight." Nah, that's not going to work either.

[Darknyte7]

85. Humorous observation there...

Although that takes us to another controversy, as there are those who believe that Mary Matalin was JC's wife (De Vinci Code).

Lincoln could have been bisexual though...

[Phillycat]

87. Mary Matalin?!?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn, she looks GOOD for being JC's main squeeze!



(I think maybe you are talking about Mary MAGDALENE) ;-)

[Darknyte7]

98. My bad...

Mary Magdalene...

[redqueen]

91. So -- are there similar flame wars about how Jesus can't defend himself

from such claims when that book is discussed here?

If I had seen those I wouldn't have posted this, that's for sure!

:crazy:

[liontamer]

15. yes

[amazona]

22. I had heard it before

I don't know if he would consider himself gay or bisexual. It seems clear that he had one or more male partners.

[sir_captain]

92. Not really

all the "evidence" is extremely circumstantial inference.

[amazona]

99. all evidence is either circumstantial, physical, or eyewitness

Circumstantial evidence is all we have for anything that happened in the 1860s at this point in time!

[sir_captain]

100. That's not true

that's why writing was invented--to record things, including actual evidence. The reason that we know that *anything* happened, pretty much all throughout history, is because of recorded evidence. Just along these lines, there's a lot more real evidence, for instance, that Alexander the Great slept with men--and he was obviously from much further in the past. Secondhand reports of Lincoln being fond of particular men, and sleeping in the same bed with a man in a time when this was commonplace is hardly any sort of evidence at all.

[Earth_First]

23. I did not know that...

on a similar note, I've been reading a book titled: Lies your teacher told you. Basically it's everything in American History that your textbooks didn't or won't teach you. Fascinating stuff.

Did you know that Helen Keller was a very vocal, yes I said vocal (something else your history texts rarely, if ever taught) proponent of socialism during the McCarthy Era?

[Zuni]

29. I have that book

she was a major proponent of socialism/communism during the Russian Revolution, and an outspoken feminist in the early years of the movement

[Enraged_Ape]

24. Abe Lincoln had marital problems with Mary Todd

Apparently Abe and his chronically depressed wife argued a lot. She even chased him out of the house once with a butcher knife. Aside from a lot of noncontemporary accounts and innuendo, this is offered as the primary evidence that Lincoln was gay.

By this specious standard, most guys who have been married any appreciable length of time are gay. I bet you didn't know there were so many homosexual men in the world.

[Misunderestimator]

32. "Most guys married any appreciable length of time..."

have chronically depressed wives who argue with them all the time and chase them with butcher knives???

[Enraged_Ape]

66. If you haven't at least had some sort of cookware...

either pointed at you or thrown at you, you haven't been married long enough.

Nonetheless, proof of homosexuality it is not.

[redqueen]

67. Not accounts and innuendo... letters between him and his alleged lover

Do you think the letters are fakes? Misinterpreted?

[Enraged_Ape]

71. I've seen neither the content nor the bonafides for these letters

It's just all too inconvenient that Abe isn't around to explain and/or discredit them.

[sir_captain]

93. The letters don't really say anything

And yes, I certainly think they could be misinterpreted.

[sundog]

27. Well, law of average...

you figure percentage-wise, there's had to be at least one gay president.

Probably another one somewhere along the line.

[skypilot]

34. i wouldn't be so sure.

Some gay men can sometimes be a little too quick to claim that some historical figure was gay, based on amorous sounding letters or a particularly close relationship with a male friend. The thing is that men in that era expressed their affection for one another alot more openly, and even passionately, than men today. There is a book that I came across a few years ago (the title escapes me at the moment) that explores this subject. It contains lots of photos of men who apparently wanted to memorialize their friendship in a photograph. Many today would look at these photos and the level of intimacy and affection being expressed in them and assume that the men in the photos were gay. They'd mostly be wrong.

[redqueen]

38. Yeah but...

some guy said he had perfect thighs or some such.

I'm sorry, but that's over the bounds of close friend affection type stuff.

[skypilot]

46. That sounds juicy but...

...Lincoln didn't say it and there's no context in the article for the comment. Maybe he saw Lincoln naked or partially dressed in some athletic setting--maybe swimming--and admired his physique. And like I said, men back then were more forthcoming in expressing their admiration for one another. I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that claims like this get made all the time and I think people need to consider the times and the different way that men related to one another. Otherwise, we run the risk of sexualizing too much.

[redqueen]

35. IS ANYONE GOING TO READ THE FRICKIN ARTICLE BEFORE POSTING?

SHEESH!

[henslee]

40. He had a beard, he liked the theatre. Seems obvious.

[izzie]

41. What did his wife and sons say on this?

--

[redqueen]

44. Perhaps the same sorts of things

as other children / exes of adults who come to grips with who they are late in life?

[Phillycat]

43. This thread is, predictably, getting really ugly.

Nothing like gay- AND woman-bashing at the same time. :eyes:

[terrya]

53. How could he be "gay" if there wasn't a gay identity then?

I'd like to claim Lincoln as "gay", but the word "homosexual" didn't come into usage until 1896.

Yes, Lincoln had, probably, an emotional and loving attachment to Joshua Speed. There are lettters between them extant that display a lovely friendship between the two.

But it is incorrect to suggest that Lincoln thought of himself as "gay", since people at that time didn't think of themselves in terms of their sexual orientation.

[redqueen]

58. Yeahbut

In today's terms... if he were alive today... and IF the letters aren't just trumped up intenuondre... would he be considered gay?

[Cuban_Liberal]

72. Good article, redqueen!

Thanks for sharing it!

:hi:

[redqueen]

89. Glad you liked it!

I honestly had NO IDEA this thread would turn out this way. Yikes!

:hi:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

73. WHO CARES!?!??!

He was the greatest president this country has ever known and I don't care who he bedded with. Whatever it was that made him so ready to empathize with those who were shunned by society made him a great man. This is as irrelavent as asking "did you know Lincoln was over six feet tall???" It doesn't change who he is, or what he did.


This just shows that people were as into celebrity worship 150 years ago as they are now. Human nature yearns for "juicy stories" and always has I guess.

[progressoid]

81. So far, EVERYBODY HAS MISSED the bigger issue....

What are Rush, Hannity and OReilly gonna say about this? Who will volunteer to listen to all 9+ hours to find out??

[SemiCharmedQuark]

84. Maybe they'll finally quit hanging on LIncoln's coattails

As though he would be "one of them" if he lived today.

[progressoid]

95. That would be great but I predict more of a Kitty Kelly attack instead

[Radical Activist]

94. The only "historian" who thinks so

is a gay rights activist who isn't a historian. Not buying it. I do believe in a thing called projection.

[skygazer]

96. Oh, for Pete's sake, this again

This is yet another case of people putting a 21st century interpretation on 19th century events.

Lincoln and his law partner shared a bed during their early partnership and so modern readers quickly assume they were gay (particularly modern readers who would like that to be true).

The truth is that in those days, this was a perfectly normal occurrence. Homes were smaller and heating systems were crude, making it more economical to share a bed and conserve both space and heat.

Even when one traveled and stayed at a boarding house, it was not uncommon for the travelers to share a bed with a complete stranger.

I have studied that era for many years and Lincoln particularly and have seen all this before. There is very, very little evidence to support the theory and most of it has to do with Speed and the common custom of sharing a bed. The bit about the bodyguard is pretty much pure speculation spread about by non suppporters (similar to the slew of unflattering rumors about any sitting President).

[SemiCharmedQuark]

97. Great post.

I don't particularly care about Abe Lincoln's sexuality, it doesn't matter. But one thing I HATE is when people will say he was racist. Talk about imposing 21st century ideals.