Are there NO Democrat Christians?

[greyfox]

I am amazed at the hatefulness that the majority of folks on DU seem to display toward we who are Christians. No wonder Democrats are put down so much - an dno wonder people grovel at the Shrub's feet when he says he reads the Bible and prays -- yeah right - anyway, this is a shame!

I believe there are many many of us Democrats/Indepenedents who ARE Christains and yes it is a resentful thing to be constantly put down because of what we KNOW.

[dolo amber]

1. No

Heathens, each and every one of us. :evilgrin:

[greyfox]

3. I see...

so the Repukes are right? OMG!!

[Zuni]

2. I am a Christian and a Democrat

and proud of it.

[greyfox]

10. Well Zuni....

how does it make ya feel when every thread and post slanders the name of Christ and us as His followers?

Yes, I know ... it is to be expected, but iy just surprised me when my own "party" so to speak is so vile. Repubs always say we are heathens and hate God and all that --- and how well we prove it here on DU.

Gross.

[Zuni]

20. Well, I hate when people go out of their way to attack Christianity as a

whole. I do not like it when people make blanket attacks on Christians, or attack my Savior. But there are RW "Christians" who deserve every bit of critism we can muster.
It is when people do not acknowledge the difference between Christians and the fundie crowd that I am offended.

But some so called Christians really deserve it.

[greyfox]

31. So-called Christians?

How nice that God made you and I the judges of their hearts. Rememeber Jesus admonishing His disciples to realize that He had sheep of other folds and to leave them alone --- He would see to them?

I dare say, we all need a dose of compassion... even after the horrendous loss of America for 4 more years.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

152. What is your opinion about...

Falwell and Robertson's utterings shortly after 9/11 (about "who's to blame")?

[Misunderestimator]

229. Exactly. Thank you.

[CO Liberal]

242. And YOU Need A Dose Of Reality

No everyone agrees with you. Get over it.

[0007]

268. You haven't been here long enough to know anything about DUer's

Mr. FAUX

[noiretextatique]

277. what hearts?

people who use religion to cower behind while they spew all manner of hatred...do they even have hearts? i'll save my compassion for the people they target.

[auburngrad82]

150. There are over 2 million messages in this forum alone

How is every one an attack on Christians?

The Republican party uses "Democrat" in place of Democratic as an insult and to try to separate the party from Democratic principles. Hence the use of "Democrat Christian" rather than Christian Democrat is not a good thing in a Democratic forum.

I don't have a problem with any religion or belief system but I do frequently have a problem with organized religion. For instance, I have a problem with a Muslim cleric telling followers to martyr themselves by killing Americans. I also have a problem with Christian preachers that hold up signs reading "Kill all fags." Neither one is anything I would want to be associated with.

To me, religion is more of an individual thing. It frequently becomes corrupted when used by groups as a means to a political end, ie an amendment banning gay marriage or an amendment banning abortion.

I think that you need to have a bit thicker skin. Only a few posts are anti-religious in nature. If you think they are all anti-Christian then maybe for your peace of mind you shouldn't read them.

[trumad]

4. Oh triple horseshit....

And fuck the asshole fundies who diss us errrr Democrats.

[ZoCrowes]

5. Yeah

There are quite a bit of them here on DU. I come from a very large Irish Catholic family and they are all hardcore Democrats. I don't really consider myself much of anything anymore. I'm not a Xian, atheist, deist, agnostic I just don't give a shit. However, my mother, brother, grandmother, uncles and aunts are all regular churchgoers and are all democrats.

[Doctor_J]

6. actually,

Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter are both devout Christians. I thikn people here put down hypocrites like Bill Bennett (The Sultan Of Sanctimony) and Jerry Falwell, who associate Christianity with voting Republican.

[Magrittes Pipe]

7. No. There are, however, Democratic Christians.

Words make more sense when used correctly.

[trumad]

11. The misuse of the word Democrat or Democratic

Is common amoung dumb ass freepers.

[Magrittes Pipe]

12. I've heard that as well.

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

137. Yep. That's what called my pal Peter's attention.

[greyfox]

22. Well, I am not a freeper

and i said what I meant. Democracy is a way of life.. a democrat is...well, it looks now as if we are idiots after all.

[Cobalt Violet]

143. Are you saying non-Xians are "idiots"?

[Bluebear]

216. Say what?

[RetroLounge]

291. Yup, it certainly is telling

hmmmmmmm

RL

[greyfox]

14. Democrat is fine, sir/ma'am

Democratic is what we all are... Democrat is a party of.. whatevers.... so I said exactly what I meant... are there no Democrat Christians...

[Phillycat]

23. A party of ...whatevers?

What the hell does that mean?

[Bunny]

27. Your grammar is still wrong. It's just wrong.

And using the word "Democrat" incorrectly is a dead giveaway. So, thanks for the bogus question, and yes, we are all pagans.

[China_cat]

80. Christian Democrats do exist and the grammar is

correct.

They are one of Italy's numerous political parties.

[Bunny]

117. Yes. They are called Christian Democrats.

NOT Democrat Christians, as the OP insists on saying.

It's an adjective thing.

[Magrittes Pipe]

29. Not if you wish to use the English language correctly.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

138. Them long words is fer them libruls. (nt)

[lancdem]

42. You mean Christian Democrats

not Democrat Christians. I agree with the others who are tired of Democrat being used incorrectly as an adjective, primarily by Republicans. It's Democratic Christians. And, no, that's not the same as democratic with a small d, in referring to democracy.

[Magrittes Pipe]

48. No, the Christian Democrats are a German political party.

:P

[JerseygirlCT]

214. Slowly now... Democrat is the noun. Democratic is the adjective.

Work on that and then come back, maybe.

[Phillycat]

8. Nope, we're all pagans.

We tend to post naked under the full moon while making animal sacrifices. Is that wrong?

[greyfox]

15. Only if you

think it is... or know.

[hyphenate]

211. No animal sacrifices!

We're vegetarians, remember? Perhaps those aborted fetuses that we're all supposed to love seeing. You know, we're supposed to love animals more than delicious--er, delicate children. (This is a sarcastic comment and NOT to be construed as serious under any circumstances.)

[StopTheMorans]

9. bad semantics my friend. it's either "democratic Christians" or"Christian

democrats." the way you use it is the way right-wingers try to take the "democratic" out of "democratic party", and is wrong. just fyi...

[greyfox]

16. No...

I said exactly what I meant.

[Bunny]

30. It's a poor reflection on you, then. n/t

[StopTheMorans]

32. if you talk like a right-winger, expect to get treated like one nt

[lojasmo]

182. You're using the language of Joseph McCarthy

If you meant to say that, you may want to toddle over to freerepublic.com

[Patiod]

176. Wasn't it Gingrich who first pushed the use of "Democrat"

as an adjective? As in "Democrat party"?

I love it, because it's a nice little tip off that the person I'm talking to or listening to is a wingnut. Moderates and Dems themselves NEVER use "Democrat congressman" or "Democrat party", but wingers can't help it.

And yes, there are plenty of us Christians here, and most of love to bash fundamentalists - love it as much as DUers who are atheists, agnostics, Pagans, etc..

Unfortunately, some folks aren't careful enough with their language, and use "Christian" when they are really bashing "Falwell Fundamentalists" or "Right-Wing Christians" or "Ultra-conservative Christians".

They don't seem to be aware that there are plenty of observant Christians out there believe that the ideals of the Far Right are antithetical to the teachings of Jesus.

[SOteric]

13. There are plenty of us. Check out DU groups

and if you don't find a group existing that meets some of your needs, I'm pretty sure you can form one.

[Left Is Write]

17. I am a liberal, a Christian, and a Democrat.

I don't *usually* identify myself under the broad term "Christian"; I self-identify as a liberal Lutheran, and I operate under the assumption that most people realize Lutherans fall under the Christian umbrella.

[Zuni]

26. I am a Russian Orthodox, but I am non denominational really

I don't think I could really find a church that fits perfectly

[Zeke]

35. ??????????????

The question I have is: do any hot looking, single, 28-38, born again, Democrat, pro-choice, christian women exist, and where are they?!

I'm totally alone in my conngregation and would be alone in most churches in my area, so where are they?

[hyphenate]

212. Where are you?

If you're in the middle of the Bible Belt, you might consider moving to a slightly more northern area. OR try a Universal Unitarian church. They are above all the most liberal Christian congregation in the whole country.

[progmom]

18. There are, Greyfox

But it's a pretty serious wedge issue right now. Many very intelligent DU-ers are having trouble separating the narrow-minded, judgemental right-wing Christians from their more reasonable liberal Christian friends on DU.

I've started mentally adding a parenthetical "right wing" prefix preceding the word "Christian" on all the threads ridiculing Christians lately. I'm pretty sure that these people who I really like and respect aren't intentionally insulting me. I think it just gets tiring to always type "fundamentalist right-wing Christians" every time, so it's being abbreviated to just "Christians".

:pals:

[Theres-a]

19. it's sad

i am saddened by the christian bashing,too.however,there are alot of folks who claim(rather loudly)to be christian(*dubya,for one)yet are overbearing.myself,i practice patience and tolerance.and that includes with people who don't have the same specific beliefs as me.i once saw a bumpersticker that read:"GOD'S TOO BIG TO FIT INTO ONE RELIGION" my feeling is that all religions practice cetain principles of not harming others etc.to harm with the intention of defending one's faith,i believe,is still harm.peace.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. I would like to go just ONE DAY

without a whiny Christian thread. I'm Christian, we're the majority, and to tell you the truth, I see very little anti-Christian sentiment on DU. My family is predominently Irish Catholic, and even they're disgusted with this Chrisian persecution complex that is all the rage these days in the mainstream media.

[greyfox]

28. Then...

maybe you need to look again...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

36. Then maybe you need to ignore those threads?

:shrug:

Maybe I'm not as sensitive as you are. You realize Christians are the majority in this country, right? That they currently own the airwaves and the discourse, righ? How would you feel being Jewish, Buddhist, agnostic, whatever and then come to DU and have religion shoved down your throat, which the Mainstream Media does everyday? This is a POLITICAL message board, and there are religious groups you can join on DU.

BTW it's DemocratIC.

[realisticphish]

298. while i sort of agree

i see no reason to hate on christians just because they are the majority. but anyway...my main point is that you say this is a political discussion board, etc...this is the LOUNGE, specifically for non-political stuff


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

140. Look this.

[jonnyblitz]

69. NO SHIT!!!

The wingnut fundies arent the only ones with the persecution complex it seems. :eyes:

[shrike]

226. More whiny atheists on DU, I'm afraid

One thing we've got to do is stop going after each other. We're all supposed to be on the same side. There's a lot we can agree on, believers and non-believers, and these religious flame wars are counterproductive.

[brainshrub]

24. What the hell are you talking about?

I've never felt put down or gotten any malice from anyone at DU over my religious beliefs.

I don't think it's possible to be a Republican and a true Christian. Christianity flies in the face of unbridled Capitalism, the death penalty, war, intolerance and classism. (All hallmarks of modern Right-Wing ideology.)

The only issue where Republican "Christians" might have a moral claim is over the issue of abortion. Abortion may be wrong, but to make it illegal would make the problem worse and create a legal framework that would make a womens body the property of the state.

American Christianity has been hijacked by radical clerics; If you think that pointing this sad fact out is hateful, then you need to look inward and ask yourself why you feel uncomfortable with the truth.

ON EDIT: While I was editing my original post several people responded. In the original post I asked: "Please give a link to an example of DUers being hateful to Christains."

[greyfox]

33. There are many....

Here's just one new one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2852536&mesg_id=2852536

[brainshrub]

53. The post was about whether a degree from an unaccredited school

is a hindrance; not a tirade against Christianity. Why do you feel this is hatefull?

If people want to diss Notre Dame, I don't consider it an attack on Catholicism.

[StopTheMorans]

34. no, the poster is right. 90 percent of Americans believe in God

as do most DUers, yet somehow this poor, pitied uber-majority is getting the shaft right now. excuse me while i :puke:

[greyfox]

38. Another... now find your own.. they are legion...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2854726&mesg_id=2854726

[trumad]

41. So you're OK with the Religious Right?

That's your example of Bashing?

[matcom]

43. yeah and Bob Jones University aparently

:eyes:

[greyfox]

51. That's one, yes

Why bash Christians? Oh I know it is prophecy coming to pass, but it just seems it comes from within the ranks, more than without... those without know no better.

[StopTheMorans]

54. "prophecy coming to pass"? if you believe that shit, then why not

just take Christ's example and accept it? If God meant you to be persecuted, and you're aware of that prophecy, then why try to fight it? Aren't you fighting God's will then?

[Solly Mack]

74. "Bashing" the religious right is "prophecy coming to pass"?

Is that in the Book of Falwell? Book of Shrub? Book of Robertson?

"Thou Shall Not Mock the Religious Right's Hypocrisy"....is that how it goes?


Are you familiar with the religious right? Do you actually believe they practice Christian principles? That they represent Christianity?

I'm truly confused. The majority of Christians on DU ask not to be associated with the religious right....yet you seem to feel that pointing out the ignorance of the religious right is a bad thing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

145. Wow. The hole gets deeper and deeper.

By all means, DO keep digging! There's a nice ornament ready for when you finish. Think "Western flick with Kurt Russell and Val Kilmer."

[Kathy in Cambridge]

156. Think pizza!

[Modem Butterfly]

46. Jesus Christ pal... (pun intended)

You need to get a thicker skin and/or a life. Seriously. If you don't realize that Bob Jones University is not a symbol of all Xians you're in for a long, hard road ahead.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

71. Bob Jones University is akin to a Nazi Youth Camp

what they teach there is hardly Christian. No interracial dating? Revisionist history of the Civil War? Holocaust denial? Yeah, they're really Christian! :crazy:

[Modem Butterfly]

73. No shit. If I were a Xian, I'd be offended by their use of the term

They give Xians a bad name.

[lancdem]

52. That refers to the religious right, not Christians in general

I'm a Christian, but I don't get your point. Are you saying DUers shouldn't criticize any group of Christians, even if we disagree with everything they stand for? Sorry, I'm not doing that. And you seem to be equating attacks on one group of Christians as an attack on every Christian. Christianity is hardly a monolithic religion.

[brainshrub]

59. Pointing out that RW Christians are hypocrites

does not make one anti-Christan.

Heck, Jesus spoke out against hypocrisy more than any other vice! Was Jesus hateful against Jews?

Luke 6:41-42 41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.

[MarianJack]

25. Democratic Christian here!

Devout Roman Catholic who loves to give hell to those who hate monger in JESUS' name.

As to Christian bashing here, I ignore it and move to the next post.

[SCDem]

37. Jimmy Carter is the finest Dem Christian I know.... and I even think he

is a Baptist which I have been guilty of lumping them all into one hateful basket in the past.

[greyfox]

56. THAT is what I am talking about...

lumping us all in one basket... not ALL believe the same, but ALL who are Christians belong to Christ and are family --- thus we need to uphold, not batter... no wonder the world thinks we are crazy!!!

[Zenlitened]

110. And in post after post, thread after thread, forum after forum...

... DU people gou out of their way to refer to "right-wing christians" or some variant of that phrase.

Believe me, if you walk around this world looking for opportunities to take offence, to imagine injury, or to perceive persecution... well. It's not going to be a pleasant experience.



(edit spelling)

[St. Jarvitude]

155. "The world thinks we are crazy" ?

What world, exactly, are you talking about?

I'm interested in your response.

[skygazer]

158. You just contradicted yourself in one short post

You condemn lumping all Christians in one basket yet say that "ALL who are Christians belong to Christ and are family --- thus we need to uphold, not batter."

Do you mean that all Christians must defend all other Christians? Because that's what it sounds like. And that would sure lump you all in one basket.

Look, I don't know why you don't get it - you're being deliberately obtuse. I've said in other posts that I understand why some liberal Christians feel the need to defend their faith sometimes around here but you're making it sound like anyone who claims to be a Christian should be exempt from any criticism at all. Outrage over a thread criticizing Bob Jones University is an example.

There is absolutely no one in this country who can or should claim exemption from criticism. People who claim to be Christian while exemplifying un-Christian values should piss you off just as much, if not more, than those of us who are not Christian. After all, they are a bad reflection on your faith.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

195. Why, yes, we in other countries DO think you are crazy...

...but for reasons opposite of what you think.

[brainshrub]

85. Whenever I get tempted to lump Baptists

I think of Jimmy Carter and a buddy of mine named Steve Basset.

Steve, a devout Southern Baptist, is one of the kindest, pious and patient people I've ever meet. Steve was a "preach-by-example" Christan.

[bobweaver]

39. There are millions of Democrats who are Chrisitans, but the Democratic

party is basically secular and the Democrats tend to believe in the separation of church and state. So the Democrat and the Christian are two separate things, not a single label, in the view of most Democrats. The Republican party seems to have no problem with blurring or even demolishing the separation of church and state.

[edbermac]

40. The only true Christians are Democrats...

and the Republican ones shall now be referred to as KKKristians...

[Tafiti]

169. Nice! I think I'll use that one myself, if you don't mind. n/t

[edbermac]

177. Be my guest, let's call a spade a spade...as they might say...

[gratuitous]

44. Right here

And I don't put much stock in anonymous message board postings. If I'm in relationship with a person who spouted off the sort of things that are routinely posted here and elsewhere, I would engage that person in a dialog to find out just what he or she was referring to with their comment.

Most of the anti-Christian screed I read online can usually be classed in one of the following categories: (1) Ignorant popping off, and unworthy of serious rebuttal or engagement; (2) Serious and appropriate criticism of popular Christian practices that are in reality not Christian or not a part of how I practice Christianity, and therefore not worth defending as the critique isn't made against me or my practice; (3) Serious and appropriate criticism of my beliefs and practices by a poster whose track record I'm familiar with, and therefore worth engaging.

As you can probably guess, the third category is pretty small, and the chances that I'll see any particular post in that category smaller still. The first two categories, while technically hateful toward "Christians" really isn't worth my time or effort to engage.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. first of all a majority of du-ers arent anti-chrisian...we are just

anti shoving your beliefs down everyones throat and making laws based on them

secondly i have been watching how often this happens...and this is a complete exaggeration!

the majority religion in the country should feel victimized...:eyes:

[shesemsmom]

47. I am a Democrat and a Christian.

I have been insulted a time or 2 here for offering prayers and speaking of God but I will continue to speak my mind

[greyfox]

57. Good for you....

and I will be happy to join ya -- "if two agree..." ya know? <wink> GLORY!

[shesemsmom]

105. Amen. What my question is how can you be a Republican and a Christian

???

[RetroLounge]

206. Maybe you mean GLORY

HOLE?

RL

[leftofthedial]

49. No. There are no Democratic Christians

If you were truly Christians, you'd be Republicans.

All Democrats are going to hell. No true Christians will go to hell. Ergo, there are no Democratic Christians.

I have this on good authority. A Republican minister I know told me and God Almighty told him directly, so it's pretty well decided. Sorry to have to break it to you.

Also, you have an interesting understanding of the word "know." Shouldn't you put it in quotes?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. you forgot to add- - -

rich white males christians are the most oppressed group on earth!

[leftofthedial]

61. there you go again

ridiculing rich white male christians

you oppressor!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. i know! bad me! we minorities have everything

they have nothing...poor babies...whatever shall we do?

[leftofthedial]

65. we should raise our taxes and cut theirs

for starters.

[greyfox]

62. Heheheheh

wouldn't know about that... I ain't one hahahaah

Oh well...

[greyfox]

58. Not at all....

I KNOW.

[leftofthedial]

81. well praise gawd cheezis

and hand me a viper!

[Modem Butterfly]

97. But I don't even believe in Jebus!

And also, I was a snake in my last life and really hated being manhandled by some greasy ham-fisted in-bred Billy Bob. So your post was offensive to snakes, and the people who love them. I call shenanigans!

[leftofthedial]

111. i wasn't talking about the snake

i was talking about the car!

LOL

[Modem Butterfly]

113. Oh. Well in that case...

Never mind.

[lojasmo]

185. you believe you know...you have faith

which, by definition is belief without evidence.

If you KNOW, you don't know.

[Zenlitened]

55. "... because of what we KNOW."

I think your use of that word, in caps, says a lot about why people here are upset with religion in general. It suggests, to me, the sort of aggressiveness and rigidity that so many people claiming to be Christians exhibit these days. Wouldn't "believe" have been a better choice of words?

[greyfox]

60. oH, NO SIR, NOT AT ALL...

I know that I know that I know... as in have total faith in,,, not JUST "believe"... from total experience I KNOW the reality and joy and correctness of Christianity... glory!

So, KNOW was precisely what I meant.

I do not however push it off on anyone... for YOU to KNOW is between you and (your) God... and most KNOW, just some do not want to accept..

[StopTheMorans]

64. "joy and correctness of Christianity"

that sums it up perfectly. if you're "correct," then everyone who isn't a Christian isn't "correct," and is thus "inferior." where can i catch the copter to gitmo? :grr: wasn't Christ inclusive? whatever happened to following his example? :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

I wonder what our Christan thinks of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists?

I can imagine it ain't pretty...

[progmom]

126. Kathy

Do you mean "our Christians" as in Christians on DU? I can't claim to speak for all, but will speak for myself. All of the faiths you mentioned teach kindness, charity, and love. I'm all for 'em!

:pals:

[Dorian Gray]

161. I'd like to add to that

that even the Catholic Church teaches that there are many paths to Truth, though some paths are more clear and direct. So, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Hinduism, and other religions are not looked down upon as being evil. They all have some semblance of God's truth, according to the Church. But, of course, the RCC believes that the truth that manifests itself in Roman Catholicism is the most complete.

[greyfox]

96. Indeed

I am correct (for me)... you need to search the scriptures and find what God has for you...

But,see, you just want to argue... accuse...attack...blame.. rather than seek...

[Zenlitened]

114. And you just want to insist that you have all the answers.

You even want to decide what it is we should seek after.

That's not very democratic of you, nor is it very liberal.

And you wonder why your statements create conflict?

Oy.

[livinginphotographs]

293. Oy????!!!

Heathen!!!!

[StopTheMorans]

133. no, you are WRONG my friend; i was a christian for the better part of my

life. searched, read the scriptures, questioned, sought, and decided that, for me, it was all a bunch of HORSESHIT. that's just as correct as what you believe, and you have no more proof on your side than i have on mine. not trying to start shit, just trying to call you out for the elitist language you insist on using...

[Zenlitened]

142. Don't you love it? The way it's assumed...

... that we have done no spiritual inquiry of our own, that we have made no effort to understand faith ourselves?

Such arrogance. "You don't believe what I do, you are not convinced as I am, therefore you must be defective in some way."

And yet, to make it all even more galling, we're constantly accused of taking that very attitude toward the radical religionists.

I have to give it them, they are masters of rhetoric, experts at twisting logic to suit their arguments.

Ugh.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

151. You're right-it's the arrogance

Twisting logic to suit their arguments, meanwhile their arguments have no logic.

They assume we're all stupid, have never made a spiritual journey of any sort, or have never read the Bible. Such HUBRIS. So much like the Pharisees.

[Tafiti]

175. Good God, this guy sounds all too familiar!

90% of my family is right-wing fundies, as I myself used to be (by default, I guess), and this sort of thinking is absolutely rampant. From my own experience, it seems to stemn from the verse where Jesus (supposedly) says, "I am the way, the truth, the light, the ONLY WAY TO GET TO GOD." (something like that). It's like, sorry, if you don't believe in Jesus, you're lost, deceived, misguided, ignorant, inferior, sinful, rebellious, in the grip of Satan, lack comprehension, selfish, depraved, et al. But someday you'll realize...

I cannot STAND this type of thinking! I think that's why people like us speak up against these kinds of Christians, because this mentality is implicitly buried in little phrases and words that they pick up as a collective unit. Ugh.

Hey, buddy: NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST!!!

[gollygee]

68. Nope, you don't know

there is no way to know for sure one way or the other. I happy for you that you have faith, but I don't understand why you feel the need to exaggerate. "Know" has a dictionary definition and "belief in God" can't come close to meeting it.

[greyfox]

98. I know....

because Jesus plainly said we could KNOW the truth and it would make us free...

I KNOW... and He was right... I am free. Glory!!!

[gollygee]

106. No, you have faith

Faith means to believe in something without proof.

To *know* requires proof.

You will know when you die. For now, you have faith. Faith is lovely, but it isn't knowledge.

[Zenlitened]

89. Well, that's certainly your right.

I'm put off by that sort of statement, to be honest. I really get a very visceral negative reaction. But to each her own, I suppose.

[greyfox]

99. No need to be put off...

and I am HIM... ha ha ha... anyway... because i KNOW what I KNOW (through Christ) should not be of any concern whatesoever... now YOU knowing is what you must feel concern about...

[Zenlitened]

120. "... now YOU knowing is what you must feel concern about..."

Well there you go, attacking me now.

Thanks for showing your stripes.

[gollygee]

123. And he wonders why people

think conservative Christians are arrogant.

[Zenlitened]

129. Exactly. With each post, the OP makes it increasingly clear...

... where he stands.

Got to love the technique though, huh? "Why are you so hostile toward me? If only you weren't so empty and devoid of faith, you'd agree with me."

Sick.

[greyfox]

190. You feel attacked?

I doubt that.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

191. Who are you to doubt anyone's feelings?

Get down of your cross, please.

[greyfox]

217. No cross for me....

Jesus bore it. The cross He said bear is one of compassion for others who do NOT know Him yet...

Off to church... catch y'all later... maybe... glory!!!

[Kire]

224. okay, but, who are you to doubt anyone's feelings?

:shrug:

[RUDUing2]

just because you disagree doesn't mean that christians don't

KNOW...me saying I know Christ is real and I know God exists...is not a comment against you. But when the common theme on DU about christians seems to be one of ridicule and derision against ALL christians, I can see why someone would feel the need to believe that any claim by a christian is somehow a slur against non-christians (mindset and projection ykwim)
The underlying theme on this board seems to be that atheist want to claim some sort of intellectual and moral highground and label all christians (not just the fundies) as delusional and ignorant. There does seem to be a pretty prevalent opinion on DU that it is okay to make fun of and be bigotted against christians...but it is not okay for christians to defend their beliefs.

[gollygee]

77. Saying Christians don't KNOW isn't bigoted

it's the truth. Likewise, athiests don't KNOW either. All either have is belief or lack thereof.

To say anyone KNOWS is silly.

[RUDUing2]

82. that is your opinion...knowing something is not always

based on empirical or scientific proof..

Your opinion is that christians can't *KNOW*...and you can have that opinion if it makes you feel better...but that doesn't ivalidate that *I* KNOW that Christ and God and the Holy Spirit are real and exist.

Open your mind a bit and realize that your beliefs are not that only ones. Not believing in God does not make you smarter or more logical..or more anything...and it certainly does not give you the right to claim that Christians *can't* know...because that is only your personal belief.

[gollygee]

87. There is only one truth

None of us knows for sure what that truth is.

And I don't recall saying that I don't believe in God. Why do you assume that?

I'm saying Christians *can't* know, and neither can athiests. No one knows or can know.

[lojasmo]

187. "knowing" implies knowlege Faith does not.

they are two different things. One can not KNOW that god exists, as there is no data to use as proof.

To say that one has faith is more realistic.

[Zenlitened]

134. What if I told you that I am utterly convinced that Christianity is a lie?

I've been through a lot in my life, and for many, many years I sought to understand and sense a connection with the Christian god.

I've been a church-goer, I've studied religion formally, and I've spent countless hours in contemplation. After all that, I have a very strong sense that there is no such thing as god, as depicted in any of the world's makor religions.

If I were to say to you that I KNOW you are wrong, what would your reaction be?

[RUDUing2]

139. my response would be I have done the same and I know that

it isn't a lie, but if you chose to believe differently that is your right.

As long as you don't try to belittle my religion by calling it a myth, fairytale, fantasy, etc, or try to infer that I am stupid or delusional for my beliefs..you can believe or not believe what you find is right for you.

[Zenlitened]

144. Then why is it okay to impugn my point of view...

... as the OP has done here?

[RUDUing2]

146. Explain how you feel the OP has denigated or belittled your beliefs?

Explain how you feel she has inferred that you are either stupid or delusional?

[Zenlitened]

149. Read the OP's posts in their entirety.

The implication has grown up throughout the thread that those who do not share his or her sense of conviction are somehow "lacking."

It's a two-way street, don't you think? Many on this forum who continually claim to be persecuted for their beliefs also manage to make it clear that those of us who disagree, do so because we are "devoid" of whatever it is they posses.

[October]

66. Personally, I'm tired of the majority

screaming "victim!"

It rings hollow -- and very "O'Reilly."

Repubs and Christians are controlling everything right now, and it's still not enough.

25 days of Christmas on TV; radio stations play nonstop Christmas music; wreaths and decorated trees abound -- and they're still screaming. Are these folks EVER happy about anything?

The only thing they can't claim is "minority" status, and that bugs the hell out of them, so they now scream like infants that the secularists are persecuting them.

What a mess.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. it screams right wing stupidity

bill o' reilly...ann coulter...rush...all of them

[October]

75. Yup

My aunt brought this up recently too.

She'd emailed me with a "Merry Christmas....if you can even say that any more...don't get me started" bullshit.

I sent a cheery reply and said "Some advice for the Merry Christmas stuff...stop watching FOX and Bill O'Reilly...they'll have you hating everything and everyone...There is plenty of Christmas out there, etc., and you've always had the free will to wish anyone a 'Merry Christmas.'" I also sent her the Merriam-Webster definition of "holiday," which started out with "Holy Day" as a definition.

These folks need to chill.

I've watched my once calm, collected aunt become a rabid, angry, Christian hatemonger. She's an educator too, and a damned fine one -- but now I'm starting to worry that this FOX mentality will creep into her teaching.

They're all slowly being brainwashed to be victim. It's disgusting.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

92. It screams of Goebbelsian propaganda

the Jews are a threat to the German way of life! They control the banks! They won't let us practice our faith!

What a load of BS this Christian persecution compley is. There's not enough lithium in the world to cure these people.

Signed,
irish Catholic girl

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

154. You Forgot Poland!

Poland attacked poor, defenseless Germany, y'know.

[Dukkha]

67. It's their own fault!

These so called "Christians" have only themselves to blame for being regarded as hateful fascist narrow minded spiritually voided arrogant thugs. If they want a better image for themselves then they better start leading by example. You can start by showing a little tolerance to other religions and not acting like yours is the only right one.

"because of what we KNOW"

perfect example

[Hobarticus]

72. I am a Christian and a Democrat, and I am not offended at all...

by my fellow DUers' anger.

I am not offended by people angry at "Christians Gone Wild".

I doubt sincerely that most DUers and Dems are beating up on Christians simply for being Christians. That's a RW myth, and it reeks of a martyr complex.

Judging by their politics, ie. feed the hungry, teach the children, heal the sick, peace on earth, etc., I'd wager that they're far closer to Christianity than many so-called Christians I've met in my life.

[NoSheep]

286. Absolutely. I am moral and ethical. That is what separates me from repukes

and, unfortunately, most people who call themselves Christian. Perhaps those who are offended by what is said here are those who hear the sting of truth in DUer's stabs at "Christian" hypocrisy.:shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. exactly what do you know anyway?

[China_cat]

78. It's hard not to be disdainful

when you've got people sporting bumper stickers that say "you can't be christian AND a democrat".

Kinda makes you want to slap somebody.

[RUDUing2]

83. so why slap those that are christian and democrats? Cause that is what is

being done on DU.

[Left Is Write]

94. Yeah, that makes me want to slap somebody, but

because I AM a Christian and a Democrat, I don't want to be the one slapped.

:)

[China_cat]

107. Ok, let me ask you

Why don't the moderate christians, the ones the rest of us would not only have no problem with but wouldn't even notice, get up and denounce the nuts in your midst?

Moderate christians counter a doctor killer and his supporters with a one-line 'we do not condone violence'. I am areligious but the best commercial I've seen in years is the one done by the UCC on inclusion.

Why aren't you standing up, taking out full page ads and loudly saying "you don't speak for us, get a life"?

[Left Is Write]

115. Well, I personally *do* try to mitigate the effects of the RWCC with my

own words and actions. I'm constantly trying to show the rest of the world that not all Christians are right-wing conservative hate-mongers.

As to why "moderate Christians" as a group aren't taking out full page ads, I don't know. I don't think there's one cohesive group called "moderate Christians."

I'm not even a moderate Christian. I am a very liberal Christian.

[China_cat]

122. Ok, you're a liberal christian

so you must belong to a liberal congregation or you wouldn't be allowed to stay for long. That means you are not the only voice.

Why not ask the people you consider your spiritual community to do something like that? Take an ad or do something else to publicly denounce the dominionists in our midst. See what happens.

[Left Is Write]

128. I belong to a liberal denomination.

I do not belong to a liberal congregation. There is a difference.

I am far more liberal than many of the people who belong to my congregation. What do you mean I wouldn't be "allowed" to stay for long? I am an ELCA Lutheran - one tenet of the ELCA is that we are a welcoming church. We welcome *everyone* - even those who do not share 100% of our views.

I live in a red state. It doesn't get much redder than this one. It's not surprising to me that this congregation is less liberal than the one I left behind in Minnesota. I don't have the power to take out an ad in the name of the ELCA or in the name of my congregation. I wish it were that easy. All I can do is make *my* voice heard and encourage others to join me.

[China_cat]

194. Ok, I'll ask it again

I didn't ask you to do anything on your own. What I said was "Why not ask the people you consider your spiritual community to do something like that? Take an ad or do something else to publicly denounce the dominionists in our midst. See what happens." I suggested that you ask the people you go to church with, people you say also oppose the wingnuts among us, even your pastor, to join together and make some kind of statement. Just ask. See what happens.

I might have given you all the benefit of a doubt if it hadn't been for a person I used to consider a liberal christian telling me today that the only reason she still talks to me is because Billy Graham is a democrat and therefore there must be something 'salvagable' in me. I wish I could just put it down to her joking around but she wasn't.

[Left Is Write]

205. Please don't judge me based on the actions of someone you know.

I have no fondness for Billy Graham whatsoever. What does your acquaintance's opinion have to do with me?

I said *I* am a liberal Christian. I didn't speak for anyone else within my congregation. (And, by the way, though I do believe my pastor shares my political views, he can't act in his capacity as a pastor without the approval of the synod. I would be happy to write letters to the bishops and leaders of the synod. I'm not sure what else you'd have me as an individual do.)

[China_cat]

213. It has to do

with the fact that if someone I thought I knew well, liked and considered a very good friend could turn on me like that, why in the hell should I believe anything you type here?

[Left Is Write]

215. Okay. I think we're done.

I don't have the inclination to have a conversation with someone who believes everything I say is suspect.

[brainshrub]

79. You are right.

People who love Democracy do not equate religious beleifs with political affiliation.

[paula777]

84. I would be, but a little thing called SCIENCE gets in the way

[madison2000]

93. No it doesn't.

There are zillions of scientifically literate Christians and there are zillions of book on the relationship between religion and science. Take some time to look into it.

[RUDUing2]

103. science doesn't get in the way for me...but to each their own.

If you believe that science gets in your way, then I guess it does for you..but you need to realize that for many of us there is absolutely noting in science that invalidates religion and by the same virture nothing in religion that invalidates science.

[arwalden]

86. Why Do You Use "Hate Language"?? Why Must Your Ridicule Atheists?

Don't you realize how offensive it is to use "charged" words and phrases like "what we KNOW"??

By saying things like that, you're suggesting that people who are atheists DON'T KNOW something. You're suggesting that we're dumb or willfully ignorant.

That's a put down. Why do you hate us? Why are you trying to DIVIDE the party? With our country so evenly split, the Democrats cannot afford to alienate atheists or non-Christians.

Why can't you use words and phrases like "what we think we know" or "what we believe even though we have no proof".

[gollygee]

88. Here I thought that was the whole point of faith

That Christians show faith by believing even though they don't and can't know for sure.

:shrug:

[paula777]

91. But the problem is WE DO KNOW. We know it to be a fairy tale

But they believe anyway. It just baffles me. They stop believing in Santa Claus, but they continue to believe in God. I'm stumped

[RUDUing2]

100. no you BELIEVE it to be a fairytale..so why do you think your

Beleifs trump mine?

[paula777]

112. I don't believe my belief 'trumps' yours.

But I don't know how you talk yourself into believing something that is fantasy. I don't know how suicide bombers make themselves believe they will go to 'heaven' and receive a haram from god, I don't know how catholics think if they go to confessional and confess thier 'sins' that all is forgiven. I don't know how people believe this when we actually know for a fact that there wasn't Adam and Eve, rather there was evolution .... a scientific fact, but people just say, no, I think the Bible is right, not science. I wish I could believe, it would probably be more peaceful, but I can't believe in something that is clearly fantasy

[RUDUing2]

118. see you just showed that you think it does...or else you wouldn't have the

need to denigate my belief by calling it a fairytale and fantasy..most christians believe that science and religion are two sides of the same coin..not that the bible is right and science wrong...If you didn't believe that somehow your belief was superior then you wouldn't have the need to make fun of and try to belittle my beliefs...I don't feel the need to do that to your beliefs...

[paula777]

125. Man, I am so not trying to belittle your beliefs .....

I just don't know how else to explain my feelings without using those terms. It is not meant to belittle or make myself feel superior. I can't explain it any other way so I'll just shut up.

[progmom]

131. Many modern Christians believe that the story of Genesis was an allegory

And don't take it literally.
I'm in the middle of a book right now that tackles a lot of the issues you're talking about - it's called The Heart Of Christianity by Marcus Borg. Talks about the true basis of Jesus's teachings (you know, love, tolerance, forgiveness) and how it's been twisted by the RW.

I totally get what you're saying - thanks for explaining it more.

:pals:

[Zenlitened]

102. Well, that plays nicely into the "liberals hate Christians" meme...

What that the intent?

[progmom]

108. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I think any honest Christian will tell you that belief isn't an easy path. You constantly doubt. But I do believe, most of the time. Jesus taught that God is love. And love is really the most beautiful human expression.
I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong, just trying to explain why I keep my faith, even when it might seem counter-intuitive.

[madison2000]

90. I am a Democrat and a Christian

the Christians on the left believe in the separation of Church and state and we don't believe in shoving it down anyone else's throat.

Its too bad Christianity is being given such a terrible hateful image by the right.

[Left Is Write]

95. Absolutely.

I'm angry that they've co-opted my religion and claim to speak for ALL Christians.

[progmom]

101. Thanks - you summed it up well.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

104. Christian bashing?

Let's see, if I call the guy who tried to circumcise his 8 year old son with a hunting knife because a bible verse told him to a crazy fuck, is that hateful towards Christians?

http://www.oregonlive.com/metronorth/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_north_news/110251106398330.xml


If I condemn this "godly man" who gets a hard-on bashing faggots, is that hateful towards Christians?

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html


If I say that a professional pharmacist has no business making medical decisions for women and should get the hell out of the business if he can't fulfill his obligation to provide them their birth control prescriptions, is that hateful towards Christians?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-08-druggists-pill_x.htm

If I choose to call Jerry and Pat and Benny modern day Pharisees that are milking people for millions and who need to be put out of business, is that being hateful towards Christians?


Here on DU I see a lot of folks who are anti-RW-crazy-ass- "christians"-who-want-to-shove-it-down-our-throats-and-make-us-all-live-by-their-religious-beliefs.

And there are some DUers who are atheists or anti-religion in general. And guess what? They have a right to that opinion and are entitled to express it.

Welcome to America. Thank the Gods our forefathers had the foresight to enshrine that right in our Constitution.

[RUDUing2]

109. they may be as you say

anti-RW-crazy-ass- "christians"-who-want-to-shove-it-down-our-throats-and-make-us-all-live-by-their-religious-beliefs.

but they paint all christians with the same brush and only qualify it (well some will qualify it) as meaning anti-RW-crazy-ass- "christians"-who-want-to-shove-it-down-our-throats-and-make-us-all-live-by-their-religious-beliefs. When called out on their broad brush..the post do not say anti-RW-crazy-ass- "christians"-who-want-to-shove-it-down-our-throats-and-make-us-all-live-by-their-religious-beliefs. or even fundies or fundie christians...they say "christians" inferrring *all* christians...

[China_cat]

116. quote .they say "christians" inferrring *all* christians...

Then why aren't you trying to change that impression instead of defending the nuts? That's what I don't understand.

You defend them, so you must agree with them.

[RUDUing2]

121. who is defending the nuts? DU christians are trying to make it plain that

RW fundies are not the majority of christians and do not represent or speak for the majority of christians.

I do defend christians however and wil continue to do so...because I am a christian and do agree w/christian beliefs. Too bad you can not see the difference between christians and christian beliefs and RW fundies...I can see the difference between atheist and atheist fundies...

[arwalden]

147. LMAO!! "Atheist Fundies"... Priceless!

So there are ordinary atheists who don't believe in deities. Then there are the FUNDIE atheists who REALLY REALLY don't believe in deities??

They are "fundies" because they have gone back to the "fundamental tenents" of atheism. They don't believe HARDER that everyone else who just doesn't believe.

Is that what a fundie atheist is? :eyes:

[gollygee]

148. LOL

Yep and athiesm is a religion. A religion that is being taught in the schools.

hehe

[RUDUing2]

163. atheism is a belief system, same as christianity is a belief system.

[arwalden]

172. Do You Know What "Atheist" Actually Means?? Do You??

How can there be an atheist "belief system" when an atheist is someone who does not believe in deities.

Your statements are absurd.

[RUDUing2]

183. it is a belief that there are no dieties...but it is still a belief system

[arwalden]

189. Simply Astounding...

:eyes:

[China_cat]

196. Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color.

[arwalden]

207. Yep! I'm Amazed When People Say That Atheism Is A "Belief"... WRONG.

It is the LACK of belief. I do not "believe" there are no deities. Rather, I have NO belief in deities. There's a difference.

The believers and magical thinkers are simply incapable of making that leap in logic and understanding.

-- Allen

LOL... "belief system"... incredible! Simply astounding.

[gollygee]

225. Good analogy!

I like that comparison :)

[RUDUing2]

262. a belief system is not necessarily a religion.

Atheism is a belief system, nobody has said it is a religion..although some (not all) atheist do elevate science and logic to almost a godlike essence and come close to worshipping at that altar...

all religions are belief systems, but not all belief systems are religions.

[gollygee]

292. No, all athiesm means is that you don't believe one particular thing

It doesn't say at all what specifically you believe in its place. Different athiests could have different specific beliefs about the origin of the world.

[Zenlitened]

153. Don't forget about the "militant atheists," too.

I mean the horror of all the conflict, strife, mass murder and war that has been carried out to advance atheism! It's enough to make one want to... oh, I don't know. Nail oneself to a cross? ;)

[arwalden]

160. LOL... Ya Nut!

:hi:

[RUDUing2]

164. ask eastern europeans, chinese, cambodians, etc about militant atheism....

[Zenlitened]

167. Different "isms" entirely. n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

173. The Cambodian genocide was based on class. So was the Chinese

revolution. Your point?

[arwalden]

174. Crimes Against Humanity Committed IN THE NAME Of Christianity...

are completely different than crimes committed BY an atheist (or suspected atheist) for political, or racial, or geographical reasons.

[RUDUing2]

186. One goal of those regimes was to instill atheism as the offical state

behavior and to wipe out christian beliefs, etc.

It was a goal of the state to institue Atheism.

[Misunderestimator]

235. Militant Lesbian Fundamentalist Atheist Feminist Harpy checking in

:D

[RUDUing2]

162. a fundie atheist is the same as a fundie christian or a fundie muslim, etc

It is someone who believes that only they know the truth, that their *truth* is the only truth, and that they have the right to try and force that *truth* on others.

It is someone who sees no reason to respect anyone who believes differently or to respect different beliefs, because afterall those beliefs are wrong.

So a fundie atheist is one who is completely disrespectful of religious beliefs and feels completely validated in deriding, belittling and ridiculing christian beliefs, and does so vocally on a regular basis.

[arwalden]

168. That Still Makes No Sense. "Fundie" is short for "Fundamentalist"

Do you know what the word means? Or are you just REDEFINING it on the fly to suit your needs?

fundamentalist - Function: noun
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

Well, it's obviously not definition #1, 1b or 1c. So let's move on.

It doesn't quite fit definition #2 either. I know of no "Atheist Commandments" or set of basic principles that good fundie atheists must adhere to.

I know of no atheists who are trying to FORCE others not to believe. I think that most atheists are smart enough to know that you can't force someone to NOT believe something. ("STOP BELIEVING, OR ELSE!")

(Knock-knock-knock!) "Uh, hello ma'am. I'm sorry for disturbing your dinner, but I just need a moment of your time. I'm from the United Atheist, uh, church? and I'm here to get you to stop believing in Jesus. It's just so silly!"

>> So a fundie atheist is one who is completely disrespectful of religious beliefs and feels completely validated in deriding, belittling and ridiculing christian beliefs, and does so vocally on a regular basis. <<

So what you're describing is someone you believe is rude. I'm guessing you intentionally use the word "fundie" as a thumb in the eye to annoy and agitate. Heh-heh-heh.

Despite your complaints, you won't be receiving any sympathy from me. For many overwrought Christians, ANY word that questions their belief is "rude" or "belittling". Our very existence is a mockery to their beliefs. To state our disbelief is to "deride".

[RUDUing2]

171. try this one...

www.dictionary.com

A *usually* religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

fundamentalism is not just religious..it is a mindset and behavior pattern..it is a dogmatic belief that only your beliefs are valid..it is a rigid adherance to your beliefs and an intolerance of other views...this is as true of those with atheist beliefs as it is of those w/religious beliefs...

this page explains it pretty well
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/cliff9c.htm

I am sure you believe what you say...however there is a difference between stating your disbelief in a respectful way and doing so in a rude or belittling way.. Trying to claim that it is all the same or that it is the other sides problem not yours is silly..almost as silly as claiming that there is no such thing as fundmentalist atheist...

[arwalden]

180. I Do Not Give My Permission To Be Verbally Hobbled

simply because someone feels "special" or "better" or ENTITLED to denying me the language that accurately describes my concerns and opinions.

Thank you for the definition, but the stubborn posturing and denial of the obvious is beginning to look absurd now. The word "fundie" has been misused for effect and now the attempts to redefine and defend the choice of words is just starting to look a bit, well... silly.

I have not claimed that there's no such thing as a rude atheist. Certainly rude people exist everywhere. Your point is taken, but your language is suspect. Of course you're free to use whatever words you please, regardless if they are inaccurate and misused.

LOL! How odd that you chide others for using "charged" language, yet you choose to do the same. Interesting.

When it comes to acquiescing to these "softer words" demands... I simply will not indulge such vanities. You will not fine me modulating my language or using ineffective and imprecise words to appease hypersensitive Christians.

Fact is that there are likely NO words that I could use that would be "accepted" whenever it comes to expressing doubt or disbelief or when it comes to questioning the illogic, cruelty, or absurd passages in scripture.

I'm not about to start using words from an official "approved list" of words that Christians find least offensive (approved this week... subject to change without notice).

[RUDUing2]

184. we each have to make our own decisions and we each have to

live with the impression we give to others based on those decisions. It is your right to make whatever decisions you chose.

[arwalden]

188. The Opinion That Any Anonymous Online Zealots May Have Of Me...

... is of remarkably little concern to me.

[RUDUing2]

221. lol...so you think I am a zealot? I guess I am if you mean I expect

tolerance to be shown toward all belief systems and that christian bashing is a sign of immaturity and narrow mindedness no matter how prettily you try to wrap it up under a claim of logical thinking...and that I expect people to have the honesty and integrety to look at their own beliefs w/the same microscope they are looking at other peoples beliefs..claiming you are an atheist does not get you off the hook or somehow absolve you from being intolerant or narrowminded or hypocritical...

[arwalden]

223. So Now You Find The Word Zealot To Be Offensive?

Now I'm curious, are there ANY words that you DON'T you find to be offensive?

>> "I guess I am if you mean I expect" tolerance to be shown toward all belief systems and that christian bashing is a sign of immaturity and narrow mindedness no matter how prettily you try to wrap it up under a claim of logical thinking <<

It's clear to me that many folks will always interpret any criticism of Christians or Christianity as being "bashing" and "hate speech". They will characterize as "narrow-minded" and "immature" anyone who say anything that shows anything less than abject reverence for Christianity.

Hell, even the word "zealot" offends you, even when nobody is talking about you.

>> I expect people to have the honesty and integrety to look at their own beliefs w/the same microscope they are looking at other peoples beliefs <<

Well... there's the thing... I don't have ANY beliefs when it comes to deities. Again, you've made the assertion that atheism is a "belief", but that's incorrect. Somehow you're trying to equate the two by trying to compare it to a religion, or by using the same adjectives for atheism that you would also use for religion.

For the last time: Atheism is the lack of a belief in deities. It is no belief in gods.

Frankly, I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for so many Christians to wrap their brains around. It's really not all that difficult.

>> claiming you are an atheist does not get you off the hook or somehow absolve you from being intolerant or narrowminded or hypocritical... <<

WHO has made that claim? Not I. --- Have you confused me with someone else? Do you want me to be the proxy for another argument you have with someone else? :shrug:

I think it's likely that (just as before) many hypersensitive Christians see the mere EXISTENCE of atheists is an affront to their delicate sensibilities. The act of publicly rejecting their religion is "narrow-minded". Anyone who dares to ask difficult questions about scripture is labeled as "intolerant". Those who point out the absurdities, or the misogyny and cruelty of passages and some beliefs are considered to be "bigoted" heretics.

This sense of entitlement from many who claim to be Christians is just fascinating to watch.

[RUDUing2]

245. didn't say I found it offensive...try not to project quite so much.

somehow you seem to feel that saying you are an atheist is some type of magic term. That it means that you cant be intolerant or prejudiced or that you cant be guilty of disrespectful behavior..that somehow you are not held to the same levels of behavior as others.

You can say all you want that atheism is not a belief system, but that doesn't make it so. Your belief system is simply a disbelief in dieties and a belief in logic/science in their place. However it is still a belief system. Belief system does not automatically translate into *worship* system. Maybe that is what you are failing to grasp..belief system and worship are not necessarily the same thing...although the case could be made that some atheist do elevate science and logic to a type of deity that they worship.

If you have found your truth in atheism that is wonderful, however that does not give you the right to try and force your beliefs on others..afterall you don't want religious people to force their beliefs on you, now do you?

[Liberal Veteran]

256. So you are saying Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are RELIGIONS?

Sense they are "belief systems"?

ROTFLMAO!

Let's be honest. The whole point of trying to claim atheism is a religion is so that Christians can claim they are facing religious persecution from another religion.

It's mincing words at best.

It's like saying health is a form a sickness. Health is the abscence of sickness, not a form of sickness.

[RUDUing2]

260. they are beliefs...btw nobody said atheism was a religion...only

that it is a belief system..a belief system does not have to religious in origin..it is something that is used to base your life and behavior on...it can be religious in nature or non-religious in nature...religion is not a requirement of a belief system...

Quit twisting things around to try and claim moral or intellectual superiority..

[Liberal Veteran]

266. I think people who try to equate religion and atheism are the ones...

...going out of their way to twist the language and frame the argument to claim that atheists are being given preferential treatment by the government (and summarily feed into the notion that Christianity is oppressed in the US despite the fact that there is a church in nearly every neighborhood.).

I for one AM NOT an atheist. But I can see through the bullshit of trying to place atheism and religion on the same playing field as "belief systems" is nothing more than cheap ploy. It is nothing more than an attempt by people who are religious to frame the discussion in a manner that gives them an upper hand.

I don't play that cheap semantic game.

[arwalden]

264. It Just Keeps Getting Queerer And Queerer

>> somehow you seem to feel that saying you are an atheist is some type of magic term. <<

Really? Is that how I feel? :eyes:

>> That it means that you cant be intolerant or prejudiced or that you cant be guilty of disrespectful behavior..<<

Nope... I didn't make that claim. Are you thinking of someone else?

>> that somehow you are not held to the same levels of behavior as others. <<

No that's also incorrect. What I'm saying is that I will not be held to the excessively and artificially high standards that many overwrought and sensitive Christians feel entitled to demand simply because they are Christians.

In order to avoid facing any criticism or harsh words or displeasure that others have with their religion, many of them choose to hide behind the shield of "don't-say-that-you're-insulting-me"... or "don't use that word, it hurts my feelings".

Or they try to personify their scriptures by saying things like "when you insult the bible, you insult me". To those people, I would respond with: NO! You are not the bible. The bible is not you. When I insult the bible, I'm insulting the bible... you'll know when I've insulted you!

>> You can say all you want that atheism is not a belief system, but that doesn't make it so. <<

Complete horse shit.

>> Your belief system is simply a disbelief in dieties and a belief in logic/science in their place. However it is still a belief system. <<

That is incorrect. I do not "disbelieve" in deities. It's also incorrect to say that I do not "believe in" deities.

The correct statement is: I have NO BELIEF in deities.

True, the semantical differences are subtle, but meaningful. The way you state it implies that deities do exist, yet I 'reject' them despite evidence to the contrary, and based on my 'faith' or sheer stubbornness. -- Again, that's a completely false notion.

The reality is that I have no belief at all. I see no evidence that such a thing exists, so there is nothing for me to "believe in".... there is nothing for me to "disbelieve in".

>> Belief system does not automatically translate into *worship* system. Maybe that is what you are failing to grasp..belief system and worship are not necessarily the same thing...<<

Is this part of a conversation you meant to have with someone else? Maybe you're trying to direct this argument in a new direction? Who knows?

While I'm certain we could go round-and-round if you started a thread on this new topic, I don't see what good it would do here.

>> although the case could be made that some atheist do elevate science and logic to a type of deity that they worship. <<

Same comment as above. Off topic. What's the purpose for injecting this?

>> If you have found your truth in atheism that is wonderful, <<

Again, you're incorrectly trying to equate atheism with being a religion, and that's wrong. I do not "find my truth" in atheism.

Such a statement assumes that I'm seeking a "truth". And that's wrong. In addition, the phrase "finding one's truth" often implies that they have found a higher 'power' or other such nonsense. For anyone to say such things and make such comparisons is absurd.

>> however that does not give you the right to try and force your beliefs on others.. afterall you don't want religious people to force their beliefs on you, now do you? <<

Yeah right... "HEY! YOU BETTER BE AN ATHEIST... OR ELSE, DAMMIT!" :eyes:

LOL! More absurdity! Just to be clear, based on your previous messages, when you say "your beliefs", I'll assume that you're referring to my atheism.

Notwithstanding that my atheism is not really a "belief"... if you can show me ANY instances where I have tried to force atheism on others, I'll offer my sincere apologies.

[Tafiti]

254. Rather than having a 26-word-hyphenated-cluster-fuck,

a fellow DUer came up with this one: KKKristians. Will that work? That just screams RW-crazy-ass-"christians"(et al)...

[RUDUing2]

261. that works...or even creationist...sums it up too...

[jonnyblitz]

124. great post!!

:thumbsup:

[amazona]

119. there are many

However as real Christians follow the Gospel's injunction to pray in your closet rather than putting on a show on the street...we don't always see the good people, just the fakes.

[mcscajun]

127. You'd get more traction...

...if instead of 'put down because of what we KNOW.' you'd written 'put down because of what we BELIEVE."

It's the arrogance of claiming sole possession of the truth that puts people off in the first place, and trying to ram it down their throats in the second, that causes folks to go ballistic on certain people 'of faith'. Live and Let Live sounds a whole lot better to me; if your religion works for you and comforts you in times of trial, I'm happy for you...but if you get in my face with it...I'm not happy at all.
I am totally areligious, not anti-religious, but fundies of Any Stripe piss me off.

Disclaimer: I'm a self-described 'collapsed Catholic', one-time atheist, long-time agnostic, flirted with paganism, animism, and Goddess worship. Areligious works for me these days.

And to the other semantic point: How does Christian Democrat sound?

Democrat Christian sounds more Freeper-ish to me.

[crispini]

130. A few points:

Don't confuse DU with "the Democratic party" or even with "reality." :evilgrin:

And, YES, of course there are many fine Democrats who are Christians, I get the feeling what's upsettting you is the Christian bashing on this board -- and, yes, it's there, I agree with you. Just remember to preface it with "right wing fundies" and you'll feel better. Or, just ignore the threads. Hey, I live in Texas. You wanna know how many threads there are on here that *I* have to ignore? :D

[HEAVYHEART]

132. pfftt

I went to All girl catholic schools, my mother is a religous fanatic, I've tried other denominations, I've read up everything I can on various religions, God, etc..

As a result, I've decided to become an atheist.

[mcscajun]

135. Catholic schools, at least in my generation...

...were incredible training grounds for atheists and agnostics.

I constructed a 'proof of the non-existence of hell' in sophomore year and got hauled off to the priest's office. :) Nothin' like starting early, I say.

[blindpig]

181. training grounds

yep, not to mention dopers, "perverts", anarchists and the better class of petty criminal! Enforced Mass attendence 6 days a week might have something to do with that...........

[China_cat]

197. Not to mention despots.

I love it when the fundies go on about Stalin...without ever knowing that he was training to be a priest in the orthodox church. It was his anger at realizing that he'd never have the money or connections to rise any higher than a parish pastor that put him into politics.

Or that Pol Pot and Mao both were educated by the catholic church.

[RUDUing2]

263. what does that have to do w/anything? Are you saying that you

cant be an atheist if you have ever had a connection to a church? or are you making a judgement claim that they weren't really atheist? If so on what are you basing that claim?

[China_cat]

278. Nope, they were atheists

but they were trained in the methods they used by the church.

[liberalpress]

136. OK, Here's an attempt to douse the flames..

As a Christian do I object to the Christian-bashing sometimes seen on the board? No, why would I? My faith is not so weak that basher or non-believers can shake it.

The only thing that I find sad is our tendency to use the patented right-wing broad brush to stain a whole group. The fact is some who call them selves Christians deserve to be bashed -- not for their beliefs, but for their behaviors.

I am not judging them or the depths of their religious commitment, I am simply expressing my belief that their behaviors are harmful to others. My theology tells me harming others is wrong... your mileage may vary.

You may not believe as I do. I don't care... just as I don't care about your sexual orientation or race.

I care about the "content of your character." If we "love each other as we love ourselves" together we can accomplish miracles.

[UrbScotty]

141. I am strongly both. (nt)

[Dorian Gray]

157. Yes,

I'm a Catholic. Don't worry about what other people say. They're just anonymous people on a message board. If they don't believe in God, it's their right, and don't feel offended by what anyone says! If you feel inclined, argue your points, though! :)

Good luck to you, and Merry Christmas!

[hickman1937]

159. There are only Democratic Christians.

The others are pretenders. BTW, Its Christian Democrats. Priorities.

[mark414]

165. what? you mean democrats are mean spirited and intolerant?

glory glory i never knew! i thought being a democrat meant that you were completely free of prejudice intolerance and stupidity!

unfortunately...many on here are exactly of that mindset and assume themselves to be saints...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

297. Yep yep yep...

As you know, read any affirmative action thread for proof.

[Politicub]

166. What a martyr you are!

Do climb down from that cross sweetie - someone else could use the wood.

You know for damn well there are Christian democrats, and I think they get a tremendous amount of attention at the national democratic level. WTF do you want? Would it make you feel better if we all became born again or something?

I'm not religious. It's fine if you are. It's not OK for people like you to always butt in and whine about how marginalized you are since it's blatantly NOT TRUE!

[Zomby Woof]

170. I worship Absu

Sometimes Baal, or Thor. I like to take turns with the neglected demons and deities. :crazy:

Boneless christians make fine snackin' food, though!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

193. Well I like that!

Not one mention of worshipping me! ;-)

[Zomby Woof]

198. I worship you EVERY day!

You bring good head! I mean, beer-wise of course. :evilgrin:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

199. In that case

:D

[JohnKleeb]

178. Of course there are

hey I am a Catholic Dem, most dems aren't resentful of Christians at all actually, hell my democratic influeneces, my grandparents are lifelong Catholics as well.

[progressoid]

179. Hell yes there are

most of my relatives are Christians and most of them are Democrats. It's just that here at DU there tends to a little more vocal group to the contrary. Kinda like fundis are on the other end of the spectrum.

Personally I think...

[livinginphotographs]

294. Funniest picture ever.

It is now stolen and archived on my harddrive for threads such as this. :hi:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

192. It all depends on your definition of Christian

If your definition requires that people arrogantly profess to "KNOW" the "TRUTH", then I'd have to say you probably won't find many sympathizers here.

On the other hand, you'll be in good company if you're seeking people who do their best to follow the teachings of Jesus, and humbly recognize how little they know, and are secure enough in their faith to recognize the truths that other religions offer without adding qualifiers like, "Of course, (insert religious group here) live decently enough, but they'll all go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus."

I'd like to know how you figured your hatefulness statistic. Did you count the number of people who say "I hate Christians"? Did you make inflammatory comments about non-believers and count the number of angry responses you got? Please do tell us how you came to conclude that at least 30,000 members of DU "hate" Christians.

[UdoKier]

200. What is it exactly that you KNOW?

You apparently don't know any better than to generalize all DUers as "Christian-haters".

I don't know how many Xian DUers there are and I don't care, since religion is so completely irrelevant to my life.

I see Christians trying to force their theology into every corner of public life. I don't see atheists doing that. DU is a wonderful escape for some of us from the incessant proselytizing and Christian paraphernalia we see in our communities every day.

Could you furnish a quote as to how you personally have been "put down"?

then you say "no wonder people grovel at the Shrub's feet when he says he reads the Bible and prays"

Well, doesn't the fact that so many Christians actually buy the story that Bush is a "Christian" make you wonder if any of them are capable of thinking for themselves at all? It's pretty clear from his actions that he is NOT a Christian.

[LanternWaste]

201. Ooh...ooh...Mister Kotter!

Ooh...ooh...Mister Kotter! Actually I'm a Christian and a Democrat. Sure, there's some anti-Christian rhetoric flyng around. No more than anywhere else you'd find, though. I make a difference when alluding to anti-Christian and non-Christian and simply make a mental note of the former and stop wasting time with those posts.

Non-Christians on the other hand... well, there are some gals and guys I'd like to have a few beers with and spend an evening listening and talking. :)

I've got no real problems with someone who thinks I worship a "sky-fairy" or think I'm not a deep thinker simply because I'm a Christian. At the end of the day, I simply remove a few "credibility-points" from his/her total and go on with my life.

I spent some time at DU one afternoon (I think it was in Aug., maybe Sept.) collecting a few meaty quotes from some prolific posters re: Christianity and after five minutes I came up with this... These are not taken out of context and came from two (maybe three?) threads re: Christianity in general.

But for those of you who think there is absolutely no anti-Christian zeal in our community, I invite you to read the quotes below. Justify them or not...

*********************************************************************

They abandon their ability to think freely, and gladly embrace the brainwashing of their religion

Christianity never has fostered deep thinkers

There is that quote that goes " Patriotism is the last refuge of scandals " and I would add Religeon to that as well.

Christians should be limited such that no one religion (including all secterain versions of one religion) may have members totalling to no more than 20% of the population in any city, town or village.

Christian leaders would be prohibited from promoting, censuring, mentioning or alluding to any candidates, politicians, measures, propositions, parties or government entities.

"Sky Fairy" believers are so unsure about their (supposedly) Faith that they start feeling threatened and scared that when they die there won't be any reward for their adherence to illogic

Yet another reborn whacko!

The church does not want the masses to use birth control of any kind. It interferes with the cash flow.

Christianity; a disease which renders the individual incapable of logic

Isn't all of Christianity a bit narcissistic...

christianity has done more damage to this country than all the tax cuts and wars combined

[MaineDem]

202. When I see "Democrat" used as an adjective...

I'm reminded of all the GOP talk I read on other sites.

There are Democratic Christians, of course! There are Democrats who are Christians. There are Christians who are Independents (I think that's what you were trying to type). I don't care what religion someone is or even if she has a religion. Just as long as I'm not preached to and everyone can believe and practice in their own way.

Your premise that there are no DemocratIC Christians is simply ludicrous, as all the previous posts have proved so eloquently.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

204. Smoking gun if I've ever seen one. (nt)

[SmokingJacket]

203. My two best friends are Democratic Catholics.

I'm an atheist/agnostic but we get along because we believe basically the same things: be kind to others, be true to yourself, love of money is the root of (most) evil.

I get tired of the mindless Christian-bashing around here: it's mostly from people who haven't been around and met a lot of different kinds of people, I think.

I don't think they're in the majority, though.

Most DUers are genuinely tolerant, and avoid those divisive threads.

[hyphenate]

208. I think you will find plenty of Democrats who are

religiously inclined. And I think you overstate the amount of Duers who "attack" people on the basis of their religious beliefs.

In my own posts, for example (I can speak for myself only, as I can't take anyone else's position for granted) if it is a posting in someway that touches on religion, I make it clear that I have NOTHING against anyone who is religious EXCEPT those who try to shove it down my throat or who are of the extreme radical right. I have spoken many times about my best friend who has become an evangelical fundie who has abandoned common sense and scientific theory for the utter nonsense that is fundamentalism and creationism. I love her to death, but the moment she starts talking about creationism, fundamentalism or any one of a dozen bizarre tin-foil-hat type of conspiracies (like the fact that secret societies are really ruling the world), my eyes glaze over and my mind-shield pops into place.

I think that the whole point that many Democrats, liberals, DUers and as many else who are left of center want to make is that how and what you believe is, really, no one else's goddamned business except YOUR OWN. It's the same thing that makes us want to protect privacies issues, such as reproductive freedom, gay and lesbian rights, and other things which really are not the government's business to stick their noses into. It's the same reason that while we might care about an issue as it reflects on our choices in our own lives, we don't need to discuss it as part of the legal jungle of the government. We don't want our privacy rights to be squelched by our government because our opinions differ from their own.

If people want to discuss their religious beliefs and choices, that's fine. But the rest of us who prefer to keep our beliefs to ourselves should have that same right. The radical religious right wants to shove THEIR beliefs down OUR throats, and that's where the line is drawn. Many of us have quite happily come to an agreement with ourselves, and are quite happy whereever we fall on the scale of belief. We don't need any hypocritical asshole from the right trying to take OUR beliefs away from us because it doesn't conveniently agree with their own.

The new forums on DU are easy to find with religious discussions. If you are so inclined to talk about those topics, you are quite free to discuss them there. I think that trying to make assumptions about the general beliefs of fellow DUers and how their written opinions on religion fall into the scheme of things is largely impossible, because having to defend our own beliefs has lead many of us to be wary of others questioning our set of beliefs, and therefore attracts a level of hostility. The Bill of Rights grants us the right to have freedom OF religion, to worship as we please, to keep our right of keeping those beliefs without undue criticism from others who might believe differently.

In the old days, there were several topics that you would not usually discuss in polite company, and among these were religion and politics. Since we're all here to discuss one of those not-so-polite topics already, it seems to me that keeping our noses out of religion is a good decision to make along the way to keeping our discussions on a level worthy of that same "polite" company. :)

[Taverner]

209. Majority of those who identify themselves as Christian

Are registered Dems. I forget the numbers or the source, but I rember it being something like 70% or something like that...

[Bluebear]

210. What is it that you KNOW? (emphasis yours)

[greyfox]

219. I know....

that Jesus Christ lived and died... the latter for my salvation (and yours) -- and that he rose again that we may KNOW we have eternal life in Him.

I KNOW that.

And all the rest is icing on a wonderful cake of God's love.

GLORY!!!!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

222. Can you keep it to yourself?

Seriously, I don't know where you're from, but in Mass. throwing your religion around like that is akin to discussing bodily functions, your sex life, and your family secrets. Show a modicum of decorum, will ya?

[Kire]

227. Amen

:+

[greyfox]

231. Glory!

[Kire]

249. Glory, Glory, Halleluia

Teacher hit me with a ruler
I bopped her on the bean with a rotten tangerine
and she won’t be coming round no more.

[greyfox]

230. So sorry...

no can do. The Master said "Go and TELL...."
So... shucks, ya just plain outta luck. (well, for THIS thread)

Glory!

[Misunderestimator]

239. Funny that you complain about non-Christians speaking up against

Christianity, but you have no problem going and "telling" it on the mountain whether or not your beliefs directly contradict others'. Seems to be a rather arrogant and superior stance to take to assume that YOUR beliefs are the right ones and that you have the right to proselytize because the good lord told you to in the bible, and the billions of people on this earth that hold other beliefs should keep quiet.

[Liberal Veteran]

247. Jesus also said...

<5> And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

You might try following that bit of advice too.

[China_cat]

282. ah gee, you seem to be forgetting

the instruction to wipe the dust off your feet and move on if you weren't wanted. Same book.

[greyfox]

234. Oh, and BTW...

Bluebear asked, so I answered... that's what WE do here in the southeast part of the country. It's called polite.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

288. Asking about my religion is polite?

Were you raised by wolves? I THANK GOD I live in a place that respects people's privacy.

[tk2kewl]

228. not fer nuthin, but...

what you described is the "mystery of faith". proclaimed as such during catholic mass. it is not KNOWledge

[greyfox]

232. Not Catholic...

so does not apply here... I KNOW... ohh hallellujah, I know...

[tk2kewl]

236. you BELIEVE

and it is you right. you KNOW?

[greyfox]

238. I KNOW....

and it is your right to BELIEVE that or not, ya know?

[gollygee]

244. It's simply a misuse of language

Knowledge requires proof. There is no proof. You have faith. Faith is strong belief without proof. You don't need to exaggerate.

Saying you don't know isn't putting down your faith, it's correcting your misuse of the word "know". When you say you know even though it is absolutely impossible to know, it shows great arrogance. That arrogance is blindingly annoying, is not proving you are a better Christian than those who admit they rely on faith, and it is not leading others to choose to research becoming a Christian. It is only making you sound arrogant.

[greyfox]

272. But it is NOT arrogance....

to say what Jesus said and HE said that we would KNOW... so I not only believe it, I KNOW it... the Christian DOES know... not arrogantly at all, but because the Word of God assures us of that KNOWLEDGE....

Semantics? Perhaps so, but I choose to say what the Word says.

[RetroLounge]

258. Gloryhole

RL

[bleedingheart]

218. Christian Democrats or Democratic Christians...

I cringe when I read statements like Democrat Party instead of Democratic Party.

[matcom]

220. I Hate You

and it has NOTHING to do with your religion :eyes:

[GOPBasher]

233. I'm a Christian Democrat.

By the way, it's NOT what we KNOW; it's what we BELIEVE. There's no way to prove religion. It's belief. That's why it's called faith.

[greyfox]

237. I love ya....

but the Word says we can KNOW... and I KNOW. If you are a Christian, then you must KNOW as well... for Jesus said we could and would know the TRUTH (His Word) and that truth would set us free.

Be free - KNOW where you stand...and in Whom.

Glory!

[gollygee]

248. Oh so now you tell other Christians how to be "real Christians"

That's priceless.

[Liberal Veteran]

250. So what am I "allowed" to do when someone used their religion for HATE?

You know, being gay and growing up in a fundamentalist household, I can assure you that I know first hand that many self-proclaimed "Christians" used their faith as a reason to justify their hatred and mistreatment of others.

If you think for one moment I will sit back and allow people to hide behind their religion like a coward when they attack me and go out of their way to deny me civil rights, you are sadly mistaken.

[greyfox]

269. And....

just when did I do that?

[Liberal Veteran]

273. Are you trying to tell me you speak for ALL so-called Christians?

I am not going to play this game with you. You are playing the cheapest and most cowardly of games trying to pretend you don't understand the context in which people are speaking when they rail against those who use Christianity as a weapon and as a justification for hatred.

They are not speaking of you in particular and you DAMN WELL KNOW IT. You would do well to cease this childishness and apologize for deliberately taking offense at people who because you CHOOSE not to take their comments in context.

Your railing against all people here at DU is EXACTLY the same thing you are whining about. I call you to account for your hypocrisy and expose it to all who are willing to read.

I can quote scripture with the best of them my friend and let me give you a little something to cogitate and masticate on:

"Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye." - Jesus Christ.

[greyfox]

275. The mote was removed already....

and I do know what you mean.

And nothiing was aimed at ALL on DU ... it was a simple question to see just how it was going to be answered -- and it has been answered in the manner I felt it would be...

...and that is the point made for some who wanted to have it proven.

Thank you ALL for responding.

GLORY!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

276. You still didn't answer his questions

I don't this Jesus would approve of this game playing. Have you been sipping too much eggnog this afternoon and having visions of martyrdom?

[greyfox]

281. Had naught to do with martyrdom....

had to do with finding out if Democrats really DO have a hate gene when it comes to Christianity...and if Reoubs are right in their assumption that we (Democrats and Independents) are really anti-Christian principles etc.

I have my answer and now can go my way... to other DU threads.

Glory!

[Liberal Veteran]

284. Oh do enlighten us....what are your findings?

Don't hide your light under a bushel. Share with us all.

[greyfox]

287. Yes.

...they do (at least on this particular thread). Thanks for the replies.

[truizm]

290. Greyfox, your intention is clearly to provoke.

Jesus wasn't fond of people like you.

Luke 11:37-44

When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised.

Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.

"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.

"Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it."

[Liberal Veteran]

280. You have a persecution complex, my friend.

You come to a board filled with christians, atheists, wiccans, buddhists, agnostics, and a host of other faiths and then get your panties in a wad because some people who don't share your particular flavor of religion exercise their freedom to express their distrust and dislike of how Christianity has been hijacked by many on the right and used as a tool of oppression instead of enlightment and now you want to pretend you are put upon and persecuted as though you are being tossed to the lions?

Give me a fucking break. You propose NOTHING but the same old self-righteous "woe is me" crap I can get from listening to talk radio.

Don't even go there. I will not give you the service of feeding into your little pity party.

You haven't a CLUE what it's like to be really OPPRESSED. You think criticism is oppression? Try being relegated to second class citizenship. Try being told you aren't allowed to marry. Try being fired from a job for being gay. Try having laws passed against you even having sexual relations with your life partner. Try having to lie and hide to be safe. Try having your family disown you and kick you out of their lives. Try being pistol whipped and crucified and left to die for being gay.

Oh, you are so oppressed, aren't you? You have a majority religion and are free to live and worship as you please and there are churches and temples on nearly every street corner in America free from taxation allowed to spread their word as they see fit and still that's not enough for you? You require that no one is allowed to speak a word against a faith they don't share in as well?

How DARE you?!!!! How dare you pretend to be so damned oppressed and offended?

Let me tell you something friend. Christianity attacked me a long time before I EVER thought of fighting back against it. And when I finally did decide I wasn't going to take it anymore from those who use their faith as a tool of oppression, it was an act of self-defense.

You want to compare what it's like being a Christian in the US vs. being a gay man in the US? Do you really?

[greyfox]

283. Hahahaahahah

at no time have I had my panties, as you say, in a wad. Hahahaah... I simply posted a question and responded as necessary to some... to see what they would then say...

Hahahaha glory... no need to get your panties in a wad over it all.

[Liberal Veteran]

285. Yeah..instead of looking to your own house to clean...

...you decide ours is the one that needs cleaning.

And then you mock someone who points out to your complaint seems rather petty when taken in the context of how much REAL suffering and oppression their is in this world.

Woe unto you that you cannot see beyond your own needs to have others affirm your choice of mythology, friend.

You have my pity.

[RetroLounge]

259. Be free - KNOW where you stand...

in front of the Glory Hole!

RL

[mattclearing]

240. All Democrats Hate God!

Haven't you heard? Or do you not get Fox news?

[CO Liberal]

241. And I'm Amazed....

...at all the so-called "Christians" who bitch and moan about being persecuted when they are prevented from ramming their beliefs down everone's throats.

I used to call myself a Christian - I no longer consider myself one because I refuse to be part of a group that would include such worthless assholes as James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, D.James Kennedy, Fred Phelps, Bob Jones, and Oral Roberts.

[LoZoccolo]

243. Yes. The hate speech is counterproductive and simply masturbatory.

The people putting it on here and the rest of the media don't really want to do anything but gratify themselves. Were that different, we'd maybe see people checking to see if the religious right really does have a lock on these voters. Aside from ethical concerns which should trump the practical concerns (but I put the practical concerns here just for the people that don't give a fuck), these people would find that 21% of white evangelical protestants voted for Kerry in this election, and maybe wouldn't want to shave off this voting segment from our column and give the next Republican president a large mandate.

Can you trust people who think activism includes complaining about things on the Internet to be so dilligent to find these things out? I haven't lost all hope, but I wonder.

Also, I heard somewhere - but don't know the source so I'll let you know that - that 33% of the total evangelical Christians voted for Kerry. This would make sense. I have no clue why these people want to try to get rid of the African-American vote for whatever pleasure a two minutes hate might grant them. It doesn't seem fitting for a group claiming to be so logical.

[LoZoccolo]

246. Also...

39% of evangelical Christians are Democrats.

[qnr]

251. This is probably the silliest post I've seen in ages.

Totally ignoring that fact that you are a Christian, and that you are on DU, which instantly invalidates your question (Unless, of course, you're not a Democrat). How in the world could you spend more than 15 minutes on DU without knowing that the place is teeming with Christians.

I could care less what you believe, don't generalize and accuse all non-Christians of hatefulness.

edit: s/know/knowing/

[pixelthief]

252. Oh please

Maybe you christians should watch who you let do your talking for you. It's not our fault that "normal" christians sit idly by and let the fanatics create negative stereotypes.

It's up to you guys to reign in your ranks or create an alternative image for yourselves. Right now you're letting a pretty despicable bunch hijack your relgion. It's up to you to either do something about it or quit bitching.

FWIW, I fully understand that there are plenty of level-headed christians out there. People who actually follow Christ as opposed to the intolerant, hate-spewing walking contradictions of the fundamentalist variety.

But those are your spokespersons. Do something to change it.

Oh, and what is this supposed to mean?:

"I believe there are many many of us Democrats/Indepenedents who ARE Christains and yes it is a resentful thing to be constantly put down because of what we KNOW."

You KNOW nothing. You BELIEVE something. Get it straight. You'll KNOW when you die. In the meantime, get over yourself.

[Liberal Veteran]

253. You are just as guilty of generalizing non-Christians.

Your self-righteous attitude that you think you have the right to speak for all of DU or brush the non-Christians of DU as hateful toward Christianity makes you guilty of hypocrisy.

Jesus wasn't real big on hypocrites. Perhaps you should spend some time removing that beam from your own eye, brother, before you start examining the mote in other's eye.

[Lilith Velkor]

255. All Democrats are Satanists

Didn't you get the memo?

[greyfox]

270. Yep....

sure did. I understand it now.

[CO Liberal]

257. WHAT?????

I believe there are many many of us Democrats/Indepenedents who ARE Christains and yes it is a resentful thing to be constantly put down because of what we KNOW.

Actually, you know nothing. No one can know for sure if ANY higher power exists, and there is absolutely NO independently verifyable evidence that there was ever a person on this plane named Jesus Christ.

What you have is what you BELIEVE you know. Why do you think they're called "religious beliefs"????

:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

265. You poor majority victims...you run everything and that's not enough?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

271. You're right -- it isn't.

After all, we evil atheists are still breathing, aren't we?

[0007]

267. I belong to the "Round Church"

[Rabrrrrrr]

274. whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine

whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ooh, we're being SOOOOOOOOO persecuted here!!!!! blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine

Yes, there are Christian DUers here, and I'm one of them.

Stop the whining and the whinging. Bad enough we have rightwing nutsos making Christians look like hatefilled assholes. Now we got a whole group of left-whinge Christians making us all look like immature over-sensitive whiny persecution-complex spoiled idiot wankers.

Stop it.

[noiretextatique]

279. what is the problem with making a distinction between the religious right

which is a destructive political force, and christians who aren't trying to turn america in to a RW theocracy? i have no tolerance or respect for the views, religious or otherwise, of the religious right, btw.

[paula777]

289. My Christmas wish is for this thread to DIE

[greyfox]

295. Done n/t

[nickgutierrez]

296. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!!

Come see the violence inherent in the system!