My homework is gay - and I need some gay help for it!

[JAbuchan08]

I just picked up a book for my multiculturalism class. I chose the book because I don't believe in limiting myself to ideas that reinforce my belief system (plus writing an analytical paper on this book is going to be a hoot). The book is called "coming out straight" and is about a psychologist who purports to have undergone a conversion to heterosexuality and who has "identified and treated" the root causes of homosexuality. I'm a pretty scientific person and I've never been utterly convinced that homosexuality is a biological condition (I simply don't care). If homosexuality is a choice rather than biological the arguments that its immoral are still based on a religious code rather than on any proven ill-effects on our society. Anyways, the guys basic premise is that most homosexuals are yearning for acceptance from same-sex figures that they lacked during their developmental phase. I guess I'm just searching for anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Any good gay sites I could pose this question at.

Thanks guys
and if being gay is a choice - I still don't care.

[kstewart33]

1. For what it's worth

I have 3 gay friends. All came from very difficult/dysfunctional families and had a very unhappy childhood. But my sample size of 3 is too small to draw any conclusions.

[arwalden]

2. I Had A Wonderful Childhood...

... I don't see any connection between that and being gay.

-- Allen

[JAbuchan08]

6. Is that a quote

or are you speaking for yourself? (who is Allen?) Do you know of any large gay communities (or psychology communities) I could discuss this guy's methods and conclusions at?

[arwalden]

13. I Was Speaking For Myself...

... and again... speaking for myself...

I have to question the logic of those who try to convince others that it's a choice. Who would choose being gay knowing the pervasive attitude and prejudices towards homosexuals?

-- Allen

[Andy_Stephenson]

16. God I love Ethel Merman!

what a lovely picture of her!

[efhmc]

3. Can't speak from my own experience but I know of 2 of my daughter's

friends (one male and one female) that had the usual stress and strains of growning up but are very close to their families as grown-up gays in committed relationship. (One couple has a child.)

[Padraig18]

4. Hmmmm...

My childhood was happy, mostly, although my parents died when I was 11 and my 3 younger brothers and I were raised by my oldest brother and his wife here in America.

I personally believe it is biological, although the evidence is hardly conclusive. I would reccomend http://www.gayteens.org as a starting place for your research. :)

[chadm]

5. My wife is studying psychology...

and from what she's told me I place a lot of importance on developmental hurdles we all must go through in life. I don't know the name of the theory, but essentially if you don't go through a developmental phase, it continually comes back to haunt you later in life. Therefore, I can see how failing to gain the love / acceptance of a same-sex parent may lead to homosexuality. I'm with you that it doesn't matter because it has nothing to do with morality. Morality has to do with how one's actions affect the larger society...and in this case we're talking about consentual behaviour. No issue.

[cprise]

22. gay men go through this with their mothers

Only instead of becoming a womanizer, they adopt a fag-hag or three.

[newyawker99]

32. Congrats chadm!! 400 posts

:toast:

[noiretextatique]

7. hmmm....couldn't the same be said of heterosexuals?

that most heterosexuals are yearning for acceptance from opposite-sex figures that they lacked during their developmental phase?

both my parents sucked...equally, yet my brother and my two sisters, inexplicably, chose to live "the straight lifestyle" anyway.

[arwalden]

19. What's WRONG With Them....

... maybe a good counselor could bring them to our side. A good GAY CHURCH might help.

At least a couple of Judy Garland CD's slipped into their holiday stockings could put things in motion.

-- Allen

[noiretextatique]

27. interestingly enough...both my sisters have more dominant

personalities than i do, and i heard a rumor that my brother...all of his girlfriends are maimed in some way...usually physically and emotionally. my older sister had two failed marriages, and my younger sister's marriage was so horrible, she swore off men for ten years. :shrug: maybe all three are closet cases!? LOL...a Judy Garland CD for my brother, and Me’shell Ndegeocello CD's for my sisters :hi:

[JAbuchan08]

20. Ummm. . . .

Good point. Of course there's no way it could be THAT cut and dried (especially if sexuality comes in shades rather then just black and white) What's the take on those who actually say they are reformed homosexuals.

[cprise]

26. My answer:

That they have bisexual tendencies, or they are practicing profound self-denial.

Probably more the latter. Let's not forget these "ex-gays" absolutlely do NOT like:

A) to be around openly gay people (esp. the same sex)

B) see gays on TV

C) to read anything about gays (their own sex) except as presented in a sordid, non-descriptive way.

Conclusion: Continual repression of self is necessary. Hence the (often successful) theory that raging homophobes are themselves attracted to the same sex. The potential loss of self-control is threatening.

[noiretextatique]

29. easy...i don't believe them

i know a woman who thought she could reform herself...until she came back to her senses. what she wanted was the privilege of being heterosexual (and married) without the troublesome sexual 'duties.' she thought she could 'trade' her sexuality for that privilege...it caused her, and her ex-husband much unhappiness. the bottom line with her: she could not accept herself as a lesbian...at least not until she tortured herself sufficiently first.

i know another woman who is married to man, but on occasion gets involved with women. she is very attractive and very successful...the kind of woman many women (and men) would love to meet. she finds a woman, gets intimate with her, then her husband finds out, and she drops the woman. she repeats this pattern every few years. she knows she a lesbian, but she feels she needs the cover of heterosexuality because of her career. and i think she does love her husband...but not the way she loves women.

i have a friend who recently hooked up with a man...after spending ten years as a lesbian. i never thought she was *really* homosexual, because of the type of women she chose: LOSERS. it's almost as if she made it as hard as possible for herself to be lesbian. ultimately, i don't think she could accept herself as a lesbian.
i think many reformed types have issues similar to these women.

[jumptheshadow]

34. Good point

My parents had five kids. One of them is gay. My gay cousin has eight straight brothers and sisters. Statistics alone would seem to disprove this author's theory.

[TrogL]

8. Found it

http://www.narth.com/docs/comingoutstraight.html

Laura Schlessinger's involved so it has to be crap.

The link is to NARTH, a known source of fundie, pseudointellectual crap by defrocked doctors.

[TrogL]

9. To answer your question

My childhood was just fine. Things didn't go all strange until Junior High school.

[Padraig18]

14. Yeah

Once the hormones kicked in, it was all over for me, too. :evilgrin:

[arwalden]

21. I thought it was a phase... that I'd grow out of it...

... but I've been boy-crazy ever since third grade.

-- Allen

[TrogL]

11. This is a variation on reparative therapy

http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/orient.html

[tkulesa]

10. No correlation

I know of some people who are gay/lesbian who had wonderful relationships with their families as kids, and others who had disfunctional relationships.

I also know straight people who had wonderful relationships with their families as kids, and others who had disfunctional relationships.

My first question to the author would be, what type of research did you do to back up this theory of yours?

Did you create some kind of scale for measuring how unhappy someone was as a child?

Did find some correlation between this scale and sexual orientation?

Did you control for the posibility that some kids had unhappy childhoods because they were believed to be gay/lesbian, rather than them being gay/lesbian because of unhappy childhoods?

You would need some serious sociological research to back up a theory like this. Otherwise, it's just some guy writing up his pet theory as if it was actually based one something.

[Bill McBlueState]

12. I'm not sure this really proves anything.

So let's say everyone who's gay (or some overwhelming percentage) had a miserable childhood. Maybe they lacked "acceptance from same-sex figures" because they were already identifiable as "different." Then the homosexuality is the cause of the negative experience, instead of the other way around. So we're just running around in circles again.

I agree, so what if it's a choice? Unlike being gay, being a fundamentalist is obviously a choice, and look how they act when they think they're being persecuted.

[comsymp]

33. Couple excellent points there, WMA

"Chicken, meet egg"
I'd be extremely interested in hearing how the good Prof has addressed this possibility in his ground breaking discovery.

And your gay/Fundie comparison is spot on~ Welcome to DU!

[roughsatori]

15. Here's a link that debunks reparative therapy:

snip:The Christian right has for years claimed that sexual orientation is a mutable characteristic -- but only when it comes to homosexuality. They assert that gay people (yet never heterosexuals) "choose" their sexual orientation and that with prayer and counseling -- and sometimes drugs or shock therapy -- they can leave the "gay lifestyle."

While some conservative Christians may believe it is their duty to lead gay people out of what they contend is an inherently sinful life, religious political activist organizations -- such as the Family Research Council and the Christian Coalition -- are motivated by politics. Public opinion polls consistently indicate that people who believe sexual orientation is a choice are less willing to support equal rights for lesbians and gays. For example, a 1996 poll found that among people who believed sexual orientation was a choice, 50 percent supported equal treatment of gays in employment; among those who believed sexual orientation was unchangeable, 69 percent supported equality in the workplace. 1 For religious political organizations seeking new fund-raising hooks since the fall of communism, this issue is a cash cow. These groups have consistently used the threat of what they have dubbed "the gay agenda" to motivate their adherents to contribute.

snip// more
http://www.hrc.org/publications/exgay_ministries/change.asp

[cprise]

17. I had a hard childhood

I think there was a time when coming from a dysfunctional or broken home meant you had less to lose by coming out.

Being gay, I don't relate to most gay people terribly well. Whether its friends or people I date, most seem to have had a happy childhood. I actually feel sometimes like I'm at a disadvantage when I date guys like this (I know a relationship shouldn't be competitive). But if things go badly and I'm hurt, he has his supportive family and I have ...?

Anyway, the stuff you're talking about is bunk. It had its last glimmer of respectability in the late 80s.

[patdem]

18. Can this same 'preacher' teach Yo Yo Mah (sp?) how to not play

the violin? I think NOT...that is so ignorant...there is so much that is learned but the seed exists and can either be nurtured or thwarted...believe me if Yo Yo Mah's(sp?) felt that violin playing would be a waste of time..and forced him to instead work in a steel mill we would all be deprived of that talent. How many serial killers would have been perfectly happy to be just gay and happy???
This 'laser focus' on gays is amazing...nature vs nuture should not be vs but nature....and....nuture..those are the truly great people...look at Tiger Woods??? this shit is so amazing...I hung around some gay bars and I though there were two types of gays (men at least) those that were 'born' gay, and those that just loved their reflection so very much they loved to have men as lovers. (of course the fact that they were so beautiful could mean they were abused at an early age?) The second type might be turned into hetrosexuals after much bru ha ha..but the first group will not. JMHO

[cprise]

23. is it orientation or preference?

There is both:

That which will bust out at the seams (orientation), and that which is malleable (I like brown eyes).

[cprise]

24. What is the Evolutionary Psychology angle

...on homosexuality? Anyone know?

[latebloomer]

25. I was at a psychological conference about GLBT yesterday

and one of the seminar leaders said there was absolutely no evidence that anyone has ever been successfully converted through psychotherapy from gay to straight.

[mitchtv]

28. Gay from birth here

thats 58+ years ago. No choice involved, in fact I chose to be straight, then Bi. didn't work. !2 years of Catholic school, and I coudn't get myself molested. I finally CHOSE to be myself, and give upthe shame and guilt. Believe me I tried to be straight- Don't let anyone tell you thre is choice invovled( at least for the overwelming majority of Gays) the term preference is politically loaded by the Fundies- the appropriate term is Orientation. as far as I'm concerned.

[mkregel]

30. call me overly binary

But my belief is that all humans are born bisexual, and have a series of millions of on/off switches which are engaged throughout life by millions of different causes. Certain combinations of those on/off switches can make someone gay or straight, or keep them bi.

Religion tends to throw a bunch of them in one direction, culture is another but there are still millions which are (and should stay IMHO) unaccounted for.

I'm mostly straight - and I say mostly because I have never slept with a same sex partner, and am happily married - but I have fantasized at times about the other side. Am I gay? Not necesarrily - I'm human.

Judy Garland and Ethyl Merman on the other hand - I have no rational explanation for that. I think Judy Garland fans have a thing for self abuse ;)

[mlawson]

31. I can tell you what it's like.

And this is the way I have seen things since my earliest memory: Women are in black and white, men are in technicolor. Simple as that, so far as my experiences have been. And I had total acceptance from both males and females, from the beginning, so that psychiatrist is ALL WET!!! Choice??? When did I choose?? NONSENSE!!!!