Maybe I'm too soft. This is about HATE. (Re-post -- explanation within.)

[Bertha Venation]

(Re-post: The Moderators determined that I'd called someone out. I didn't think I did that, but I thought I might be close to the line. (I did learn more about the boundaries of that rule.) This is reposted verbatim except for the first paragraph. If you posted to this topic before, thanks -- feel free to do so again if you want to.)

This isn't a "goodbye cruel DU, I'm leaving" thread. I hate those things. I'm kinda thinking out loud, and I'm also hoping people might have something to say about the subject of hatred. The ridiculous suggestion that I would mourn Fred Phelps led me to start this thread. I won't use the ignore function so if I don't want to read stuff like that in reply to my posts, maybe this isn't the place for me.

I've posted about this before. Hatred kills. I got thoroughly blasted yesterday because I called people on their expressions of hatred. It was an obvious mistake. If you want to hate, it's your loss, and not mine to worry about.

Someone else in the Reggie White thread posted "let's leave the hatred to the freepers" (something like that). Damn right. I don't want to be known for hatred. A good portion of this country already thinks that gay people are -- and so, I am -- filled with hatred. It's bullshit. Most of you know it's bullshit.

It is the GOP that is known for telling the world, "I have what I need, I got it myself, and if you can't do the same thing, fuck you." THAT is hatred. It is supposed to be the Democratic Party that shows compassion to the lowly, is it not? If I ever see a guy w/ a B/C bumper sticker hand money out the window to a homeless person, I'll eat my hat.

But a lot of us liberals obviously are filled with hatred. I can't do anything about that, and I wish that I could. I wish I could preach that your hatred will kill you. It will hurt you. It will hurt the people you love, even if you don't hate them.

But what do I know? Maybe your hatred doesn't hurt you and won't harm your soul or contribute to your early death. Maybe I'm just projecting.

My hatred -- and though I try not to, I do hate -- hurts me but maybe others' hatred doesn't necessarily hurt them. It's very hard for me to imagine, but maybe it's true.

I'm hoping for honest opinions. Maybe if you feel like flaming me you can tone it down, but do post what you think. I'm surely not looking for anyone to say "there, there." Just please give your opinions on hatred and, if you want to, on the thought that maybe I'm just too soft to hang out here.

edited title to add "this is about hate"

[teach1st]

1. I didn't see your other thread, but...

...I was thinking the same thing today about D.U. It came about as a result of a visit to Free Republic: The writing and remarks at Free Republic sound a lot like those on DU, except for the object of disgust being different.

We can do better.

[miss_kitty]

29. I agree

I see this "Oh look at what those Freepers are saying" threads and 9 times outta 10, I see the same sort of chatter here.

I was particularly disturbed by an instance in which a member of a hate group was on fire, and people here thought it was funny. The ATA backed it up.

As a result, I do exercise my right to leave here, don't post so often, that sort of thing. It flies in the face of what I believe in. Sure, I hate what the costumed buffoon stands for and I'll ridicule the shit out of him for his stupidity, but I feel making fun of some PERSON for the pain they may be in-well that's not part of my 'Core Values.'

[mwdem]

2. I was pretty much filled with hatred for awhile..

now, I'm trying to live in the moment and enjoy my life as much as I possibly can. I'm surrounded by family (& cats & grandcats!), and I want to get as much out of being with them as possible. Things can change in a heartbeat, we all know that. I haven't been on the boards much lately, too many bad vibes. Now, I'm at least reading, & posting some. It was refreshing to get away for some time. I know where you're coming from, I read your earlier post. Don't go away.:hug:

[jody]

3. At least you know when you hate. Many people hate but rationalize

their hatred, often behind religious dogma.

A great teacher said "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you".

I find that very hard to do but I keep trying. It appears you and I are on the same path.

:hi:

[Bertha Venation]

58. jody

All we can do is try. Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone on this path. :hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. hatred can be consuming or can just be motivating

its what i said on your last thread....

it depends on how you focus your hatred...whether your hatred is intellectual or really emotional.

i can hate but not have it consume me.

i hate homophobes( not the ones that think gay people are weird/strange but the ones that advocate violence or think our deaths are funny or deny us equal rights). they deserve the hell they will end up in.

[terrya]

9. I never heard Reggie White condemn hate crimes.

This alleged "Christian" never said one fucking word against hate crimes directed towards gays and lesbians.

I never heard this "Christian" or any other "Christian" say one fucking word deploring the death of Matthew Shepard. None. Zero. Zip.

And I refuse to believe that they don't know it goes on. Bullshit.

They turn a blind eye towards violence against gay and lesbian people. But then they moan and whine and bitch about "Christian persecution". I'm sorry...has anyone ever taken a baseball bat in this country to Christians? Has anyone ever taken a Christian to an abandoned field, pistol whipped them, and then strung them on a fence post to die a horrible death?

I will re-iterate what I said before. I will not shed one goddammed tear over Reggie White. And I hope that he burns in hell.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. i am sorry i did not even know about reggie white till today

but its kinda similar to how i felt when reagan died.

[Texasgal]

14. Terrya

I absolutely agree with your post. I guess I have never looked at it that way. Thank you for helping me see things differently. This was an awesome post!

[Debi]

25. I'm not trying to argue...

I really have no feelings on Reggie White's death (even as a Packer fan - he just played ball for the team).

But who was he? The only reason he was able to stand in front of a microphone and spew his ignorance is because he played football well.

He wasn't the second coming...he wasn't a religious leader (have you seen how easy it is to get ordained anymore?).

He was just a small-minded individual who got to opportunity to show just how small-minded he was in front of the nation.

There are millions of people just like Reggie White out there who think the same way, but because they can't tackle people or score touchdowns we will never be subjected to their idiocy - except for the occasional letter to the editor.

Please, don't waste your time or emotions on him...

[no name no slogan]

34. That's not really fair to all christians

Maybe it's because I live in a very gay-friendly city (Minneapolis, MN), but I saw and heard numerous christians deplore the murder of Matthew Sheppard. I also saw a number of local churches hold candlelight vigils for him, and saw a lot of people coming together to not only denounce his murder, but to celebrate his all-to-brief life, and to educate others too. Sure, these may not have been "fundies", but there are actually some "fundies" who believe that ALL murder is wrong, regardless of who the victim is. Some of them are even in my own family.

Personally, I don't really care that much about Reggie White, the same way I don't really care about what a bunch of overpaid 'professional' athletes do, either. Since I don't believe in the existence of hell (a middle-age creation of a bunch of catholic white guys to keep the rabble in line, IMHO), I don't care if Reggie White is there, either.

[arwalden]

38. I Dance And Piss On His Grave...

Why should I care what his supporters think of what I do? They already believe that I'm not deserving of basic equality. When did THEIR opinions suddenly become so important?

Fuck him! Fuck his faith-based bigotry. Fuck his supporters! Fuck the apologists and excuse-makers!

He's scum. Vile. What has he done to DESERVE anyone's respect? Some people want to dole out undeserved respect to this cretin... I don't. People have to EARN my respect. Why cheapen it by giving it out to someone who doesn't deserve it? Does his passing make him more deserving of my respect? Does his half-hearted mumbled "apology" make him deserving of respect?

In a word: NO.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. i agree with you arwalden...sometimes people should be hated

[terrya]

41. I look at someone like Jerry Falwell.

Here's a man who was practically rubbing his hands with glee at the onset of the AIDS epidemic...he actually said "AIDS is God's retribution against homosexuals". The "Reverend" Jerry Falwell has never apologized for that.

Here is a man who has made it his crusade to hate, to demean, gay and lesbian people. Here is also a man, of course, who is completely silent on hate crimes. Gays and lesbians just get what they deserve, according to the "Reverend"

And, the "Reverend" will say he's compassionate, a "Christian". After all, there are those "ex-gay" groups he can recomend. To cure those homosexuals of their "sickness"

This is a man who deserves to be hated. And Reggie White wasn't any better than he is.

[jonnyblitz]

45. once again THANK YOU!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[hfojvt]

50. what did he ever DO to you?

(and yes I saw your thread of his quotes, and saw much the same thing in a google search)
You act as though Reggie was pure evil. "He was scum. Vile." Why do you feel that way? Because of the hateful things he said. If saying hateful things makes a person scum, then are you scum, or do your hateful words get a free pass?
Why does it seem much easier to earn your eternal enmity than it is to earn your respect? You not only want to demonize Mr. White, but also anyone who may have some affection and respect for him in spite of the stupid things he said?
Scum means "the most worthless part of something". So a stupid speech is all it takes to be the "most worthless". Worse than a rapist, worse than a serial killer, worse than a mass murderer, worse than a thief, worse than a serial liar, worse than the kind of person who thinks dancing and pissing on anyone's grave is acceptable?
He felt the same way about homosexuals. A little perspective is in order.
Even if Reggie White has not earned your respect, maybe you should have some respect for the sanctity of a grave. Or perhaps some respect for others who respect the sanctity of the grave. When Goldwater died, my response was "in my guts, I still know he's nuts" but I never considered desecrating his grave, or cheering at the thought. Desecrating his memory, yes, but not by talking scatalogically about his grave..

[arwalden]

51. "Sanctity" Of His Grave?? Oh Give Me A Fucking Break!!

I am fucking tired of this nonsense. These are the arguments being made by his defenders, apologists, and stealth bigots who want to minimize the impact of the things he said and the things he did against the ENTIRE COMMUNITY OF GAYS AND LESBIANS. They want to pretend that his racism was "misunderstood" or "taken out of context". HORSE SHIT!

They want to excuse his homophobia because it was "faith-based" and if we only "understood where he was coming from" and that his "hatred was based on his love of the LORD" then perhaps we should be more understanding.

If I wanted to read sanctimonious tripe like that I'd head over to BeliefNet.

>> If saying hateful things makes a person scum, then are you scum, or do your hateful words get a free pass? <<

What an idiotic comparison! It's just astounding that you're trying to equate the two. If you're incapable of understanding the differences on the very face of it, then there is little that I can say that will make any difference. Suffice it to say that your inability to distinguish the two is very revealing.

How insulting for anyone, INCLUDING YOU, to try and argue that his words and his advocacy of laws and policy that discriminated against gay Americans was anything less than deliberate and calculated. -- I've had enough of these ill-informed apologists who continue to claim that it was just a "one time" thing that was an "unguarded moment" when he "wasn't thinking". Or that he later "recanted" those statements. What complete HORSE SHIT!!!!

He didn't earn or deserve my respect when he was alive... what the FUCK makes you think I'm going to give it to him in his death? --- At least while he was alive, I didn't advocate that HE should have fewer rights or legal protections, or that HE should be a second-class citizen.

>> maybe you should have some respect for the sanctity of a grave. Or perhaps some respect for others who respect the sanctity of the grave. <<

FUCK THAT SHIT! You're free to respect the "sanctity" of the grave. His grave is not a holy site. If I were able to, I'd dance and piss on it. -- I guess "sanctity" is the new shield-word these days. Whenever folks are trying to shut down debate or squelch the rights of others, they accuse the opposition of desecrating the "sanctity" of it. Kind of like how fags and dykes are destroying the "sanctity" of marriage, eh?

So now that he's dead, folks want to "sanctify" the memory of the bigoted homophobic football hero and whitewash the impact his words had in shaping young minds and planting the seeds of ANOTHER GENERATION OF BIGOTRY.

Nice work, Reggie... you little FUCK... you piece of SHIT! Scum! Vile!

[terrya]

53. Reggie White thought of homosexuality as a "problem"

I'm a gay man. And, goddammit, my homosexuality is NOT a "problem". Homosexuality period is NOT a "problem".

Did you know that there gay and lesbian teenagers who commit suicide? Because of the hostility they get from their families, their friends, society in general? That's so incredibly sad. Not even bringing up gay and lesbian teens who have been institutionalized or forced into "ex-gay" programs to "cure" their "sickness".

When people like Reggie White PUBLICALLY condemns the "sickness" and "perversion" of homosexuality (no one pointed a gun to Reggie White's head and forced him to utter that vile hate speech before the Wisconsin Legislature, for instance), that person is contributing to the climate of hate in this country towards gay people. When people like that speak out and spread their hate, they are emboldening that person to pick up a baseball bat and to bash a gay or lesbian person. And to do it in the guise of "Christianity" is repulsive.

I remember Reggie White whining and complaining at one point that he was being "persecuted" for his beliefs about homosexuality. How his freedom of speech was being curtailed. How laughable. Reggie White had every opportunity to spread his message of hate and intolerance. And he helped to contribute to the homophobia in general in this society.

Fuck Reggie White and fuck his "sanctity of the grave"

[Bertha Venation]

61. Many, many christians mourned and denounced Matthew Shepard's death.

Few people heard about those christians. I said this to Kathy last night: no one hears about the good. If good is reported, no one pays attention.

Everyone wants only to hear the bad, because it's more sensational and gets more listeners/viewers. So it's only the bad that's reported.

I haven't posted this to contradict you, Terry. Just to point out the fact that every christian in this country isn't a homophobe. :shrug:

Throughout this discussion, one thing that's struck me is the difference between hatred and anger. Kathy said last night that she thought I was mistaking the two. I admit I get emotional and can't see gray, but I don't think I am. I see anger in a lot of these "good he's dead" posts, but I see a helluva lot of hatred too.

The anger I can understand. It's clear that I can't fathom the hatred.

[bobbobbins]

66. Jesus

They nailed him to a cross...

[Debi]

17. YOU'RE GAY??!!

Joking :silly:

[crispini]

5. I missed the first thread, but this is what I was gonna say.

IMO, it's the internet. The impersonal quality of interacting w. someone by typing on a screen makes it much easier to be an ass, and much more difficult to be careful and empathetic. no real world social cues, no context, and no direct knowledge of the person.

So I really try not to take this stuff personally. if someone posts something hateful or pisses me off, I may alert, I may ignore, I may laugh, or I may write them a PM or a reply (after some deep breathing).

The other thing is there is also a biiiiiig wide "independent" streak here. Over and over I see people (not you, specifically), post about the quality of the discourse and bemoan X or Y tendency in a group of posters. Invariably they get "Mommy posts!" responses, a.k.a. "don't tell ME what to do." Which, I can kinda see -- we're all grownups here. The thing is that the way to increase the signal-to-noise ratio is to post more signal, not bitch about the noise. ya know?

So, in summary, my two cents would be 1) DU's not the real world, so take it w. a grain of salt and 2) To combat hate, post more love. :loveya:

HTH

Namaste,
- C

[Bertha Venation]

63. "To combat hate, post more love."

Amen.

Thank you, crispini. Namaste.

PS Your name always makes me crave bagel chips....

[Liberal Veteran]

6. I tried to reply....but it got locked first so let me try again.

I think many people are confusing hatred and anger.

There is a difference. Hatred doesn't really serve us, but anger can if channeled properly.

I reject the notion of playing passive and "above it all" and allowing people to treat us as doormats as a matter of course.

The other side doesn't see us playing nice as strength. They see it as a weakness and will use that passivity and not calling things as we see them just encourages them.

It is like dealing with bullies. You can't just play nice and expect to win.

In the 80's, a group called ACT-UP formed because they got tired of the same old "play nice, be passive and understanding" of the current groups .

They were right to channel their anger (not hatred). Silence doesn't just equal death. It equals consent.

This notion that Sean Hannity or some idiot on right wing radio is going to tell his listeners, "See! They are all hatemongers." is beside the point. No matter what tactic we take, they are going to spin it in the worst possible way.

We need to be vocal, truthful, and if necessary show to the world that democrats are not weak nor doormats to walked upon. We can't do that playing the nice card all the time.

But back to the point, it's bad when people on our own side don't understand that people NEED to express their anger and frustration instead of allowing people to canonize people who truly don't deserve it.

The hurt that people cause doesn't necessarily vanish with that person's death. Expressing how that person negatively affected the lives of millions of Americans is not necessarily hatred, but anger and a matter of setting the record straight while those who don't really care or share the views of bigotry are falling all over themselves to make that person into a saintly figure, whether it be Reggie White, Strom Thurmond, or Ronald Reagan.

I realize I am all over the board on this, but I really want you to understand that it really is anger, frustration, and hurt...not necessarily hatred.

[Bertha Venation]

64. maybe all over the board, but good points

I appreciate your thoughts & will return to this frequently. Thanks, LV

[jellybelly]

7. Christian repugs aren't the only racists

in the world. Some DU members post comments that rival KKK propaganda. But because the KKK hates blacks, jews, and gays...they are evil bigots. Some DU members equally hate whites, Christians, and conservatives...but that's okay because those groups are the majority in America. :wtf:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. which Du member hates whites?

and exactly why cant we hate the conservative agenda?

it is intellectually dishonest to claim discrimation when you are the powerful majority

[jellybelly]

13. point taken...

Some members view whites in America as conservative...while hating the conservative agenda is perfectly natural, sometimes it spills over into race...remember all the talk about the rednecks and nascar lovers? I know DU members don't actually hate white people, I had to use it as an example to describe the hatred of Southerners

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. well your argument is dishonest

arguing that du'ers are racist is very different from the truth, which is that this is a progressive board so by definition we are against the conservative agenda.


on edit: take a look at the gallery the vast majority of du'ers are white. do they hate themselves?

[jellybelly]

20. sorry...

I didn't explain my point well enough. Not all DU members are racist. Liberals and democrats by definition can't be racist, BUT some members ( a handful) do express hard-core racist beliefs about people who live in the south, and people who are Christian. Some black people who are repug somehow lose their race and are suddenly 'white'. I remember one post about Clarence Thomas that said, "Clarence Thomas isn't black, he's whiter than me". That comment is racist. KKK members view non-racist whites the same way.

[Liberal Veteran]

12. I think that is a misrepresentation.

What people "hate" is the kind of bastardization of Christianity that has become commonplace in the US. It pays lip service to faith and Jesus, but they don't really live the words of Christ and more often than not use their faith as a justification for bigotry and lack of compassion.

[Bouncy Ball]

8. I have such mixed feelings on this topic and I am really trying to sort

them out. Good post, by the way.

As for Reggie White and others like them, if they were hateful in their life and now they have died, well then....they are dead. There really isn't any reason for me to piss on their grave--they are gone, after all. I won't sit around crying (I didn't when Reagan died) but I won't piss on their grave either. What's the point?

But to the bigger point--hate. I am struggling with this. I used to say that I didn't HATE bush, I HATE what he has done, I hate his actions, his words, his philosophies and that was true. But lately, for ever more obvious reasons, I have come to say I hate the man, too. Maybe that's true, maybe that's not, but I think I need to get back to hating his ACTIONS rather than him. Heck I focused better on his actions back then anyway. It wasn't blurred up with hating HIM.

On the other hand, I feel like I've bitten my tongue and been a good little girl my whole life. You know, don't rock the boat, don't make waves, go along to get along, etc etc blah blah blah. And at this point in my life, both personally and in relation to what's going on in the world, I am tired of that. Done with it.

What I have to do now is reconcile speaking up, being heard, working hard for change and at the same time NOT letting anger and hatred consume me in the process.

I am a spiritual person and I have been asking my Higher Power to help me with this.

It's something I think we need to talk about here. And I think sometimes DU is the ONLY place some of us have for venting and letting it all out. I think the emotional aftershocks of Black Tuesday are far deeper and more severe than most people think and we are still struggling through that. I know I have days where I just want to scream "FUCK YOU" at every person driving a car with a bush bumper sticker and flip them off. But I know that won't help. And oh my God, when I think of all the Iraqis and American service members living through that HELL we started over there, I just want to scream and cry and throw things. But that won't help, will it?

During the primary season, I was working hard for Dean. I noticed every time I got out there and DID something, whether it was writing letters to undecided Democratic voters in other states, or handing out Dean literature at an event, or going to a meetup and speaking, I felt all that negativity dissipate. I think action is the key. That is my #1 priority for the new year, find out what form MY action will be taking so that I won't sit around stewing in these juices.

Thanks, Bertha.

[Bertha Venation]

65. "It's something I think we need to talk about here." Hear, hear!

Exactly why I started this thread. Thanks, BB. I appreciate your thoughts. (And I supported Dean, too. :cry:)

[BrklynLiberal]

16. Lots of great thoughts and words laid down here.

I think BB said my thoughts most closely...so I won't bother to repeat them...but Mike Malloy recently had a caller who started spouting stuff and Mike had to calm the guy down..and he actually had to calm himself down as well..since he admitted that he too, felt a lot of "HATE" toward the guys in charge in Washington these days.
He said something that really hit me hard.

"Hate destroys the vessel that holds it far more than it does the object onto which it is poured."

That made me stop and think..and I have been trying to rethink my hatefulness...and believe me, I do hate Bush and his minions.
I cannot say that I have reached the point of hating the action and not the person, because something inside me still believes that they are all basically evil..but I am working on it.

[Liberal Veteran]

21. But againg...there is a lot of confusing hate and anger.

Anger is a useful emotion.

I am angry that our country invaded another country under false pretenses and half the country seems to think that's okay.

I am angry that we are gouged for healthcare and prescription drugs.

I am angry that we talk about being the land of the free while the right tries to relegate me to second-class citizenship.

I am angry that we can spend billions and billions on new ways to kill people but get all tightfisted the moment we want to spend billions to feed, clothe, educate and heal people.

That anger boils up and it needs release once in awhile and I don't think we should be all passive and forgiving about the various injustices around us.

Hate and anger are easily confused and I think I see a lot of confusion going on here between which is which.

[BrklynLiberal]

23. I agree with every point you have made...

I guess the anger rises to such a pitch that it feels like it must be hate.... Saying "anger" just does not feel strong enough

[Bertha Venation]

68. Kathy (Mrs. V.) told me last night she thought I was confusing

anger and hatred.

I concede that may be true to some extent. But the hatred running throughout these threads since Sunday can't be denied.

Also someone upthread mentioned fear. I would like to hear more about that.

Anger? Fear? Hatred?

[Fridays Child]

18. I think there's a fine line between hate and fear.

[Bertha Venation]

69. Can you expand on that?

Please? :)

[mitchtv]

19. Hi Bertha

I looked for you on the post demanding Answers from Homosexuals. I enyjoy your posts. The poster claimed White apologized for his hateful attitude on Gays. It was only a claim , nothing more. Why did we hate him? I don't hate individuals, cause there are always exceptions. I do hate ideas. and yes, groups. It is all in how much energy it takes from you that is dangerous. I look foward to reading your posts.
I never use 'ignore'either

[Debi]

22. I think hate not only consumes emotionally but destroys the ability

to feel joy.

I think the word hate is used too freely (rather than being opposed to something people say hate - or disliking something they say hate).

Really, though, in hating something REALLY hating something it cosumes you...hate your ex...you think about revenge. Hate your old boss who fired you on your birthday...you think about ways to get them fired.

But if you hate strawberries you don't go to the store to smash them - or if you hate video games you don't stand outside of Blockbuster to picket them (do you?).

I've read where hate is used where the word fear should be used. That makes sense as well.

I don't think I hate....well, there is my husband's ex-wife! :evilgrin:

[no name no slogan]

24. Thank you Bertha. Hatred KILLS.

It doesn't matter what kind of hatred it is, whether it's justified or not: hatred KILLS. It kills not just the object of the hatred, but also the 'hater', too. It kills your soul and makes you less human.

I too was taken aback by the vitriol spewed on the Reggie White threads. And you're right, some of it reminded me of Freeperville.

What does all the hatred accomplish? Did it make Reggie White or Fred Phelps change their minds? Did hating on them make the world a better, more tolerant place?

Not to get all religious, but there's a very good reason why Mary and Joseph's kid talked about loving your enemies. He knew very well the destructive nature of hatred for EVERYONE--not just the victims. He also knew that loving your enemies was a surefire way to make them re-examine their own reasons for hating, too.

We should all realize by now that hatred accomplishes nothing, and only causes more hatred. I'm not talking about accepting everything a freeper thinks as correct-- it's okay to vehemently disagree with somebody's thoughts or actions without hating her/him. However, you'll do yourself a favor by letting go of the hate while you continue to fight for what's right. You'll feel better, and live longer.

[RevCheesehead]

31. Well said - and thank you for expressing your thoughts.

I am reluctant to post here, because I dared to express my grief about Reggie dying (yesterday's threads). And I was jumped all over, and hateful things were said to me, all because I said Reggie was loved and respected, and had done many good things in his life.

And Bertha, you're right on the mark. The point I was trying to make yesterday was that even though I believe Reggie was wrong in his beliefs and actions regarding gay people, there were many other areas in his life where he was truly a good man.

I dared to use the F-word: FORGIVEN.
In my beliefs, Reggie now knows the truth - and the truth about the lies he believed in. In order for ME to make peace with the situation, I simply stated "I forgive you, Reggie."

I also do not believe that Reggie and Fred Phelps should be lumped in the same category, because Fred uses absolute hatred and venom in his speech, actions, and political actions. Reggie was using his faith, as HE believed it, to express what he believed to be true...and he didn't dedicate his entire life to an "anti-gay crusade" like Phelps has. Reggie was a better person, but his bigotry called him out.

And unlike Phelps, Reggie stopped and thought about what he was doing. It is said that he repented. Do you have any idea how HARD that is for an evangelical to do??? To suddenly have to re-examine scripture and ask yourself "did I get this wrong?" Many evangelicals can't handle that, because they are used to polarized thinking. Therefore, many disillusioned evangelicals often become atheists.

I thank you, Bertha and no name, for the opportunity to add my thoughts on this subject. Obviously, forgiveness is what I do for a living. Many people just don't know how hard it is to do.

[Groggy]

46. Could not agree more...

Thank you for your post no name..I feel exactly the same and could not have said it any better. :-)

[Union Thug]

26. I definately Hate...

Loving your enemy in the midst of a class war will just get you a job at walmart.

Yeah, I hate. So what?

[no name no slogan]

27. Did Gandhi join the British Army? (n/t)

[Union Thug]

28. Point please...

Do yOu think that there will be any element of choice re.working at places like or for wages/conditions such those that exist at walmart?

There's a difference between 'joining' and being reduced to or enthralled to a Dickensian world that is, in fact, the goal of the Right.

Yep, I still hate.

[no name no slogan]

33. Point: Gandhi did not hate the British, but he opposed them vehemently

You don't have to 'hate' someone/something to oppose him/her/it. In fact, hatred may keep you from being as effective in your opposition to your enemy.

Loving your enemy does NOT mean agreeing with what s/he does, and it especially does not mean submitting to their will. Gandhi did not hate the British, and you could hardly call him a doormat when it came to resisting them.

Hating Wal-Mart will not make Wal-Mart change its labor-unfriendly policies. Boycotting its stores and educating other citizens about the damage Wal-Mart causes will-- and you can do these without being consumed by hatred.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. your point is off. gandhis non hatred of the british

delayed our freedom for 2 decades!

[no name no slogan]

44. But did other Indians' hatred of the British bring freedom sooner?

I would argue that Gandhi's hatred or lack thereof didn't play as great a role in the UK's decision to abandon its empire as did WWII. In the 1920s, the British Empire (although in decline) was still a world power, and still controlled vast economic and military resources. The British people still thought that an empire was a good idea and were in favor of keeping it, regardless of how expensive it may have been. In fact, it's quite similar to the position the US finds itself in today. :scared:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. it would have if gandhi wasnt such a compelling force

there were many movements in india brought about my hatred that would have won our freedom while the british were distracted by ww1...but no, thanks to the turn the other cheek type of attitude our freedom was delayed...the last 20 years the british knew they would have to leave so they really pillaged the land.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. actually Gandhi asked Indians to join the british army

during ww1 he encouraged Indians to join the british army hoping they would give us freedom after the war,

they did not

freedom delayed 20 years

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. I'm going to say it again, Kim: please don't leave.

You are one of my favorite people here; you are kind, loving, insightful and, a times, hilariously irreverent. My DU experience would suffer in your absence!

:hug::loveya:

[LanternWaste]

32. Would it help if I told you a little secret?...

Heya BV,

Would it help if I told you a little secret?....

I've never hated anyone in my life. I've disliked people. Felt uncomfortable around other people and even held onto a grudge or two a little longer than I should have. I've been unthinking in particular things I've said against or about people, and sometimes my criticisms of an idea are inferred to be criticisms against the person, but (and I'm really thinking hard here...) "I've never hated anyone in my life!"

The first girl to break my heart? Not hate... more than anything, fond memories by this time.

The guy who kicked my butt when I was in fifth grade? I hope he's doing well now and is happy. Really.

Newt Gingrich or The Bush*? Never met 'em, so I can't hate 'em.

I hold furiously to the NT adage, hate the sin and love the sinner. But even there I get a bit wobbly... I suppose in theory I hate murder, abuse, greed and incivility, but for the life of me, the most pronounced emotion I feel at these acts is non-comprehension(as in: "I honestly and sincerely do not understand what motivated him/her/them to do that") and sometimes curiosity (I've often daydreamed/imagined what goes on in the mind of a serial killer or even a person who takes pride in trying to destroy the happiness of those around him/her/them (call that incivility to the third power)).

And you're right. There seems to be a lot of here. A sort of feigned "righteous-rage" at fundamentally different opinions.

So here, for you Ms. BV is my three step non-medicinal cure for your funk:

Hot Chocolate (marshmallows optional) followed closely by a Cary Grant/Irenne Dunne movie (preferably, "The Awful Truth") and a cat on your lap- or a loved one on your lap... but I think cat's are better 'cause people don't purr....

Here's some good thought for ya! :)

[fnottr]

35. All the threads yesterday got me thinking

I wasn't really sure what to make of it at first, and the way I ended up feeling is that though I'm glad he won't be able to use his celeberty to preach hate and bigotry anymore, I don't want to dance on his grave.

A lot of the reactions here made me feel the same way as the reactions to the Peterson case. I was very uneasy with all of the people dancing in the streets with 'Burn Scott Burn' signs. Well, I saw a lot of that going on here, and as hateful as Reggie White was in life, he never killed anybody.

I understand why a lot of people here had the gut reactions that they did. Since I'm not gay myself, White's homophobia wasn't as personal to me. I'm not trying to judge anyone on this board's feelings, I understand how personal attacks can make people feel, I just think that none of us are best served by hating the bigots back.

[Liberal Veteran]

40. Does it need to be an either/or equation?

Don't we need the angry rabble rousers as much as the peacemakers?

Both serve a purpose in the larger context of things.

It's all in the use. As I read one time...

The open hand can be gesture of friendship, but and an open hand can also be used to slap someone.

A closed hand can be used punch someone, but can also be used to protect.

I think if we are going to win this war of ideas and ideals, we don't want to shackle ourselves or prevent ourselves from using ALL the tools in our arsenal, whether it be the hushed voices of compassion or the raised voices of anger.

[no name no slogan]

48. Anger and hatred are not the same

Anger is not always bad. Anger leads to action, and action leads to change. It's good to angry about injustice and bigotry. However, misdirected anger can become hatred-- which is negative and destructive.

I think we NEED to be angry today-- I know I certainly am. As the saying goes, "If you'r not angry, you're not paying attention". However, we need to put that anger to good use and make a POSITIVE difference. Be a creator, instead of a destroyer. Do something good with the negative energy-- don't let it eat away and destroy you.

I would argue that the angry rabble-rouser and the peacemaker are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I have Quaker friends who are both, often at the same time, believe it or not. You can be angry, and not hate.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wat_Tyler]

43. Anger is an energy, hate equally so.

It can be channelled into more positive action.

[Left Is Write]

47. I have been away from DU for four days.

Part of my mini-sabbatical was due to the holiday and having company, but it was also due in part to some very negative feelings I had developed here over some very negative threads. I just needed a breath of fresh air, as it were.

I agree that hatred is destructive, and I think it's ultimately most destructive the hater himself. I didn't see the original thread, and I don't know what precipitated your posting, but I think I understand where you're coming from.

I won't say you're too soft to be here. I'm can be a softie myself, or I can be hard as nails. I suppose it depends on the day and/or the subject. I try to post politely (or at least civilly) at all times, although the sarcasm monster does like to get the better of me.

[FizzFuzz]

49. I missed the first thread, and I don't even know who Reggie White is

so I'm a little unsure about the topic of this thread--

But anyway, I get that the issue is Hate, which is ironic for me because I've been struggling with my own rage at the mess the country is in, and the greed, anger and stupidity fueling it. I was even considering starting a thread about what to do with the rage inside at these hoards of nincompoops. (see? I'm so angry I can't even refer to them respectfully. :( )

Every instance of RW or religious nut hypocracy infuriates me more. And I just finished typing some fantasized snarky remarks to a bushbot mentioned in a story on another thread.

Yet I practice a spiritual path and I'm aware that hate is not good. I feel torn.

I'm going to save this thread, because I see some good thoughts on working to rise above the hatred I harbour myself. I need the reminders.

[Renew Deal]

52. I agree with your premise.

I thought we would be better than some of the stuff I've read, but everybody is different. The only person I really really don't like is Bush (and some of his pals). Then again I do hope Fred Phelps burns in hell so it's hard to say. This reminds me of when Reagan died. We had these same types of fights here. My feeling on this is similar to that. I don't have a problem highlighting his ideas and policies. That is who the man is. I do have a problem with some of the pissing on the grave stuff.

Here's an idea. Take your comments on Reggie White and apply them almost directly to Mike Moore. That's what the freeptards would be saying almost word for word. Now what would you say about the freeps when you read it? I bet we would be screaming about how uncivilized they are. Of course, we all like to feel like we are better than them and I think we are overall. But sometimes we don't show it.

[arwalden]

55. That Comparison Doesn't Really Work...

... when you consider that Michael Moore is a partisan writer (journalist, movie maker, editorialist, speaker) who doesn't advocate that people are worthless or less deserving of rights and basic equality because of who they are or because of their ethnicity.

They dislike Michael Moore because he opposes their IDEAS. Reggie White opposed PEOPLE for who they were and what they were. --- There's a difference. A big difference.

In order for your comparison to work, you'd have to insert the name of some honored liberal who advocated discrimination against an entire group of people for who they are and who advocated and lobbied in support of laws that restricted the rights of those people. -- Let me know when you think of someone. :eyes:

I do take you point that the angry rants of mine (and others) looks messy, and it makes you uncomfortable... but ya know... I really don't care much about that. The fuss I make has much less impact than the actual damage done by Reggie White.

They are evil. They are the enemy. Not fighting back for fear of being seen as "unseemly" or for fear of being accused of not respecting the "sanctity of his memory" is an invitation to be used as a doormat. It signals my consent and approval.

I do not consent. I do not approve. In Reggie White's death, his supporters are trying to gloss over and erase what he did... I'm not going to let that happen by being polite for polite's sake.

Those folks who are offended that I won't sit-down-and-shut-up will just have to learn to COPE or will have to examine WHY it is that Reggie White has such scorn heaped upon him EVEN IN DEATH.

[Renew Deal]

73. You have to try to get in the mind of the pukes.

I know you won't find some honored liberal that has done the things you have described. The comparison only works because the pukes give Moore that level of hate. As long as you think Moore isn't as bad as them, you aren't thinking about it the way the pukes do.

I am not pointing at anything you wrote because your stuff didn't stand out to me and I didn't read that much that made me thing "Arwalden just said something crazy." Your post with White's quotes was terrific. We all needed that.

I don't have a problem with fighting back. Considering White is dead, there's not much to fight, especially on DU. I don't think there was anyone defending what he said. Also people that are sympathetic to your/our cause in Green Bay and Philly are also big Reggie fans for football reasons. They see the separation between the two that may or may not be there. I agree with you that you should talk about who he is and not let people gloss over what he said. It's just like when Reagan died. The personal type of pissing on the grave stuff is unseemly. Your initial post with with his quotes is good work.

[arwalden]

57. Nobody Said You Would "Mourn Fred Phelps"

>> The ridiculous suggestion that I would mourn Fred Phelps led me to start this thread. <<

What was actually said was this:

"You're just going to have a field day in standing in sanctimonious judgement, and scolding, and looking down your nose at others when we celebrate the death of Fred Phelps, aren't you?"

I see a big difference between the two things.

[Bertha Venation]

59. You're absolutely right. I mischaracterized what you wrote

and I apologize.

Call me an asshole for it if that's your opinion, but I think it's wrong to celebrate most deaths. Phelps's won't be one of them.

[arwalden]

60. Apology Accepted... It's Already Forgotten

>> Call me an asshole for it if that's your opinion, <<

I have not expressed an opinion about you one way or the other, have I? The fact that I disagree with someone doesn't mean that I think that they are an "asshole".

>> but I think it's wrong to celebrate most deaths. <<

Ah... "most" deaths. Interesting.

>> Phelps's won't be one of them. <<

I'm not surprised.

Given the opportunity, I'd like to PICKET his funeral the way that he and his ilk picket funerals of people who have died from AIDS or victims of hate crimes like Matthew Sheppard.

[Bertha Venation]

62. I know you haven't called me an asshole.

I project a lot, Allen, and I think I've been an asshole sometimes in these threads.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to picket Phelps's funeral? Hmm...

[wellstone dem]

70. I agree

When I react with hate, I have to remind myself how the hate is affecting me. But anger can be a positive emotion, and I try to move my emotions from hate to anger, and from anger to action.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. Fred Phelps is a prime example of someone consumed by hatred

Far beyond the people he has offended and harmed with his tirades and picketing of funerals, etc., look at how ugly and disagreable it has made him.

If you hate too much, it eventually makes you crazy, and it warps you much more than it harms the object of your hatred. Hatred can also make you stupid: look at all the nonsense that the freepers are willing to believe.

It can be fun to sit around and have a "two minute hate" with like-minded people, but if something is going wrong, there are only two constructive reactions: directing your energies to changing the situation, or, if that is beyond your capability, trying to alleviate the suffering caused by the situation.

Hatred is also a reactive emotion. Back in the days of the Weathermen and others who wanted to "smash the state," my immediate response was always, "Yes, there's a lot of evil in the system, but if you smash it, then what?"

It's more constructuve to channel anger into thinking up constructive alternatives and cooperating with others to bring them about.

In observing right wingers, I've seen that the hatred they feel for GLBT people or other races is a sublimation of the hopelessness and despair they feel about their economic and social prospects. In other words, they're scared out of their minds, but in our macho culture, it's not acceptable for men to show fear--or to be intellectual enough to try to understand the causes--so the fear is morphed into the only socially acceptable emotion for the macho man, anger.

I understand why people feel hatred. Lord knows I've felt it often enough. But the people who harbor and nourish and cherish their hatred without transforming it into righteous anger and action become ugly in body, mind, and spirit.

[Tsiyu]

72. Too bad we can't run our emotions on Auto-Pilot

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on our selection, we get to choose the emotion we will exhibit.

In person, I believe most of us on DU do not spew hate-filled diatribes toward others. In person.

We walk around and drive around and encounter people whose attitudes and actions we despise but we merely seethe inside.

On a message board, our "speech" may be a bit more bitter or harsh.

Perception is everything, however. The trick is expressing our extreme disdain for policy and practice while maintaining our sensitivity and objectivity the best we can.

I haven't mastered that balance. Most haven't. But many DO use these boards to vent, and they need that release. Society needs them to have that release.


So the humane thing to do is to allow people to have their vent and then try to understand THEIR experience of being human. ;)