DUers who make hiring decisions - I have a question

[Booberdawg]

I’ve been applying for jobs that I do qualify for but surpassed several years ago, and I’m pretty sure I’m getting bypassed for at least some of them for being overqualified. For one thing, I went back to college and added 2 more Bachelors’ Degrees to my resume in the mid 90’s and changed careers, so I wonder if having all 3 degrees listed on my resume is actually working against me.

I have about a dozen different versions of resumes, cover letters, and follow up letters I use depending on the job I apply for, but I always keep the same education info in there. My job that I was laid off from in January was a systems analyst/programmer and I think that field is just about shot for the next several years so I’ve been concentrating on my experience in health insurance/claims processing/underwriting that I did in the 80’s and early 90’s. I wonder if that experience is too long ago for any employer to consider. I also took the agent exam earlier this year and I’m now licensed to sell Life, and Accident or Health and Sickness in Iowa and Nebraska and I include that on my resume.

I apply for insurance positions well below the kinds of things I did years ago and most of the time I’m lucky if I even get a reject letter, so I’m obviously not attracting much attention. Some of these jobs don’t even require a college education.

Any suggestions on how I can attract some attention? I’m considering just cutting out all the degrees and only including one if it’s relevant to the position.

If you are someone who is involved in the interview process or makes hiring decisions, I’d be interested in your input. I can put the resume up here without personal info if it helps. Thanks.

[InkAddict]

1. No expert, just guessing -

you're American?

[Booberdawg]

5. Yes, LOL!

[Dookus]

2. Hey boober...

I've hired lots of people.

During the last recession, I was trying to hire entry-level Software QA people. I was getting resumes from people with doctorates in computer science. I did not hire them.

I guess the biggest concern was that I KNEW they weren't really looking to do entry-level QA work, and that as soon as something better came along, they'd up and quit. And I wouldn't blame them in the slightest.

Yes, you can be overqualified for a job. I think it would make sense to at least test your theory and don't reference some of the degrees and see if it helps.

Good luck!

[44g]

4. funny sig line n/t

[Dookus]

9. thank you!

I made it myself, had it for a few days and you're the FIRST person to comment on it.

[Booberdawg]

11. That's what I suspected

But I wonder also if I leave education OFF of my resume if that can later be used to terminate me if they find out. All three degrees were at the same university, so if they check one they get all three. Might have to risk it though ....

[Dookus]

15. I wouldn't worry about that...

I've never heard of someone being fired for understating their qualifications.

Your goal is to get in the door.

[LearnedHand]

23. No, don't leave them ALL off...

...but take two of the three off. I'd be happy to take a look at your resume, Booberdawg, if you'd like to send it along. PM me and let me know. I teach writing, and I had a resume-writing business at one time.

[Booberdawg]

33. I meant that to just take 2 of them off

I'll get back to you ... thanks;-)

[Booberdawg]

42. Thanks, just PM'd you.

:D

[coralrf]

3. I hire professional people...

for my business. I usually do not pay attention to resumes that are not focused. If you include systems analysis and insurance sales on the same resume you come off desperate for a job. Don’t do that.

Include all your education but emphasize that which is relevant. Don’t come off a "college boy" no one wants one of those.

My profession is medical but I would be happy to look at your sheet. It is usually what you try to be and not what you are that turns people off.

my mail is [e-mail]

[Booberdawg]

10. As I said ..

I have about 10 different versions of resumes and corresponding cover letters - follow up letters. I do not mix the 2 different careers on the same resume. I have separate resumes for systems analyst and insurance experience.

And, I was a college "girl". ;-)

I'll shoot you a copy of the insurance resume in a bit ... Thanks

[Booberdawg]

40. Just emailed one resume version to you.

Thanks.:D

[patdem]

6. Being a woman and humble is easier i understand than for a man

humility has gotten me every job I ever garnered...and more raises than all the people in the company I worked in...my only job was to make the boss of me look good...and keep my mouth shut....and let him/her take all the glory. Then I used all the information....experience...and started my own business...and they hired me to consult...yes. Sometimes you start at the lowered position...rise to the top...and take over.

[SOteric]

7. Resumés that I consider

do not list every thing an individual has done in their adult life. I don't have the time or the inclination to read through any experience that isn't relevant to the position I'm trying to fill.

I don't tend to hire or recommend hiring people who are vastly overqualified for available work. They tend to expect and deserve higher pay; they tend to tire of the work quickly and look for more challenging jobs; they tend to leave the minute something 'better' comes along. That's too disruptive to the workgroup and the flow of the work we do.

I'd say tailor your resumé to the job you hope to win. When I've job-hunted in the past, I had my cv in several boiler-plate versions on my hard-drive. I could cut, paste and embellish on demand, and my paperwork always reflected exactly the position for which I was applying.

One thing to note; a lot of potential employers will look at a substantial gap in your work history, and they'll want to know why you were out of the work force for so long (or in your case, how you occupied yourself). That's fair for the interview, so have a smooth, polished response ready.

Good luck on your search.

[Booberdawg]

12. Thanks, SO. Appreciate it!

[papau]

8. I'd add NASD exam 6 and 7 and go that route - if you can sell - or

drop the titles from the resume.

I now do things for 1/3rd the hourly that I made only a few years ago - and had to get permission to apply for this job by more or less asking for an exception to be made - and the company is correct to hesitate to pick up someone like myself for this position as I find it hard to forget what once was and to get into a more than modestly positive frame of mind.

But Tech jobs are dead - and where they exit are being filled by the 65,000 Hb1 visa types so as to kill salaries (down from 165000 in 2000 but that was 3,000,000 jobs ago). My niche is still not under attack so low paying variations are still possible.

I once hired a clerk who hid from me that he was a lawyer - and he used client contact to get back to being a lawyer!

[Booberdawg]

16. Is that the Series 6 and 7?

I dunno - I'm not sure I have a conscience compatible with high pressure sales. In fact, I'm pretty sure I don't.

Your law clerk is a pretty good argument for why employers don't like to hire overqualified people.

And yeah - I know tech jobs are dead. There went that career. I really, really loved that job too. *sniff!*

[punpirate]

13. I've had to do some hiring off and on in the last...

... twenty years. What attracts my attention is when I see a resume for someone who's wildly overqualified in a field that has some demand. That's certainly not the case today for someone with programmer/analyst experience.

The general rule of thumb for showing employment experience is ten years, because it's assumed that's all that's necessary to show relevant traits--continuity of jobs, patterns of employment and unemployment and experience. In highly technical fields, most employers are only looking at the last three to five years, anyway, because the body of knowledge required for such jobs changes rapidly.

As for the degrees, I'm of two minds on this. If the degrees are in wildly different fields of study, an employer might think, "here's a person who doesn't know what she wants to do, or is a professional student." On the other hand, I think it's a plus to show them, _if_ it's clear from them and from your work experience combined that you were responding to changes in the job market by taking the effort to retrain yourself.

The other thing I would advise is having someone look over your resume strictly in terms of doing a "smell test." If something looks out of place or odd, than can be enough for a busy manager to dump it without further examination. Most companies simply don't do a very good job of due diligence before hiring, and it's become almost _de rigeur_ these days to inflate one's resume. Have someone else look at it with that in mind--might be just a word or two that induces suspicion.

The other thing which is bothersome to some managers, especially in technical fields, is to see substantial temporary/contract work. I have never had more trouble in my life than in hiring contract temps from agencies. Agencies almost _never_ check the backgrounds of the temps they pushed on me, and I wound up with some doozies. I finally started vetting the resumes myself--and almost every time I saw something that didn't quite make sense, when I checked it out, I discovered that the resume was laced with exaggerations and outright deceit.

Hope that helps.

Cheers.

[Booberdawg]

18. Thanks for your thoughtful response, punpirate

That's an interesting observation about what area's of study the degree's are in and I'd have to agree with you. My degree's are all business related - Business Admin, Accounting, and Computer Information Systems. Would look a little wierd if, say Renaissance Cultural Studies cropped up in there as one of the degrees. ;-)

I've been to a few of the temp agencies and they have apparently changed since you worked with them. They have been pretty thorough with me and they DO check references and education and give me a pretty rigorous vetting and skills testing. This was all for IT positions and I suppose I should go back and test for other positions since that was before I gave up on the tech field.

Thanks for your response.:hi:

[punpirate]

22. Believe me...

... looking for technical writers is a whole `nother animal. I got a classic one three or so years ago, including degrees from a school that didn't exist, etc. So, I called the rep from the agency back and said, in essence, you aren't checking qualifications, here's what's wrong with this resume, and I ticked off half-a-dozen significant items.

About six weeks later, I got the same resume from the same agency, with all the untruthful stuff I'd found removed....

BTW, all this bad experience with temp agencies is within the last six years, some of the worst of it just a couple of years ago.

What I am suggesting is that while the agencies you work with are on the up and up, the person reading your resume may have had the same sort of experiences I've had, and that can color one's views about temps, unless there's previous knowledge of the temp agencies in question.

Cheers.

[LearnedHand]

24. I'm a tech writer who worked for a technical temp agency...

...and everything on my resume is absolutely truthful. I worked through that agency for about 9 years because I love change and new challenges -- not because I couldn't get a full-time "permanent" job.

I know there are lots of unscrupulous people out there, and garbage shows up on their resumes for sure, but please don't paint us all with such a broad brush!

[punpirate]

30. I am one myself, as well...

... and that's what annoys me about this happening in the trade--there are a lot of hustlers in it that give the rest of us a bad name, and some agencies abet that--that's why I said that some managers might be suspicious of lots of temp work--and that was the point in saying it.

And, I started in this business as a contractor, as well.

Cheers.

[F.Gordon]

14. Tone down your schoolin', but.....

don't take it out all together. My first Corporate job 100 years ago required a MBA. Well, I never spent a day in college and almost flunked out of High School. (Long story.....)

Sounds like you've figured it out yourself. You're over qualified and "maybe" too old (even though no one will ever tell you that) for the jobs you are seeking.

I never look at the schoolin' part much, but every employer is different. You need to tailor your resume to "FIT" the job you are going after. You also need to be a little aggressive. Even if a prospective employer asks you to just mail your resume.....go to the employer and hand deliver it. Ask if you can speak to the person making the hiring decisions. You may get a few doors slammed in your face but eventually you'll find someone who is impressed by your actions.

I have to get back to work, but PM me if ya' want. Not sure I can help, but I'll certainly try.

Good luck.

[Booberdawg]

21. How old is too old??

When does the "age bias" start anyway? Is 47 too old in this day and age???:scared: I have some grey hair - maybe I should dye it before I go on any interviews??

I think I do tailor my resumes pretty good depending on the position I'm looking at - it's the education I'm wondering if I should cut from the resume.

Thanks for your input, motivated.:hi:

[LearnedHand]

26. GASP! You don't have your age...

...or ANY OTHER personal information on your resume, do you?

[Booberdawg]

29. NO! LOL! Not even the years I graduated from college

:D

[SoCalDem]

17. Networking is often the best way to find a job

But, I assume you have already done this.. Sometimes the best jobs are not ever advertised, because they are handled by word of mouth and recommendations..

Too much education can be a stumbling block if it looks like you are changing focus every few years..

Doing research on the company that you are applyiong to helps sometimes.. Maybe by showing an interest in the company and already haviong a feel for the place, it might show that you are eager to work there..

Have you thought of starting your own consultation business?? Sometimes that pays more, and the hours are more flexible too:)

[Booberdawg]

25. Networking has landed me a few positons in the past

but unfortunately my whole company went belly up and there were other tech layoffs in the area, so that network is dead.

I have wracked my brains about something I could start up on my own and haven't come up with anything, but admittedly it's been almost 10 months now and I'm getting frustrated and lazy (and spending too much time on DU :) ) I really should give that more thought because I think doing something on my own is going to be my best chance at making a few bucks. It doesn't have to be a lot - I just want enough to feed myself and pets and keep a roof over our heads. That's enough for me.

Thanks, SoCal :hi:

[unblock]

19. i gotta ask...

THREE bachelor's degrees??

switching interests is fine, but why didn't you ever go for a master's degree?

trust me, most master's degree programs are actually easier than most undergraduate curricula.


definately show only the ONE most relevant bachelor's. if you had a master's, you could show that too, which would show growth. showing more than one bachelor's doesn't show anything good from my point of view, and i'm generally quite forgiving on the people i interview.

put it this way: showing 3 bachelors' degrees might not hurt, but it certainly can't help. drop the least relevant 2.

also, old relevant experience is far better than recent irrelevant experience.

[Booberdawg]

28. LOL! Yes THREE!!!

I can explain!!

I WANTED a degree in Accounting, but the college I went to didn't offer it at the time so I tool ALL the Accounting classes as electives but my major was Business Admin. The year I graduated they finally offered a degree in Accounting! BTW, all it takes is another 30 hours to earn another Bachelors Degree, since all the core requirements have already been met. Sooooo 10 years later I went back for that Accounting Degree, but since I had already TAKEN most of the Accounting requirements I tool Computer Systems electives instead, found out I liked that even better than accounting, so for a total or 40+ hours, I earned both Accounting and Computer Information Systems Bachelors degrees. WHEW!

Screw the Masters - I'm sick of school

I think I will take your advice and drop 2 of them from my resume.

Thanks! :D

[Oilwellian]

20. I liked one page resumes

I supervised a staff of 20 at one time so have some experience in hiring. The position I hired for was a high turnover job because quite frankly, Head Start doesn't pay worth a damn. Anyway, when I had a position to fill, I was innundated with 50-100 resumes each time so the shorter they were, the better. I would put only one degree you've earned on whatever resume you send out, and lucky you for having a variety of degrees to work with, and match the job you're trying to get. Once you get your foot in the door for the initial interview, you can then take the opportunity to tell your potential employer about all of your other academic accomplishments. Personally, I would feel that out first before overwhelming them with my brilliance. :D

One other thing I really was impressed with when hiring someone was receiving the prompt 'thank you for your time' card in the mail. You'd be surprised how few people follow this protocol, and it was always a signal to me that anyone who sent one, more than likely dotted their i's and crosses their t's which is a good trait to have in an employee.

Hope this helps and best wishes for your success in finding a job you love.

[Booberdawg]

35. Appreciate your confidence in my brilliance O of Office

;-)

I used to follow up with a note after contact with a potential employer but frankly that ws years ago and something I have forgotten to do this time around on the FEW interview I've had over the last 10 months. Thanks for the reminder.

:hi:

[patdem]

27. No No NO unless you are interviewed by the OWNER you are a threat

to the person who is interviewing you...women do so much better because men think they are NOT a threat...to get your FOOT in the door ...do not threaten the last person that interviews you...be agressive with the HR person..but your potential boss you need to be LESS aggressive....what...the HR person wants to hire then next president of the company...your potential boss...want you to be his WAY to becoming the next president of the company....GET OVER IT FELLERS....Humility PAYS...at the right time with the right person!!!

[Booberdawg]

32. Thanks for the tips, patdem

I'll keep them in mind.

Linda :D

[patdem]

34. Linda..overly agressive women can also be a threat

any person the potential boss interviews better make him believe you will make him look good over your ambitions...that is fact..that is not even controversial....if you were a boss would you hire someone that wanted your job???? I think not...they want smarter than them...but humble...and subservient...if you can convience him/her of that...you got the job!!! AFTER you get the job...you GO TO WORK...you would be a fool to say...hey you ...I am smarter then you and I am more aggressive than you..and with in a year I will have your job...and he/she is going to hire you WHY????

[Booberdawg]

36. Sweetie, please calm down

I've been working full time for 30 years and I know all about office politics.;)

I'm a pretty smart girl. I know how to take care of myself once I get my foot in the door, whether it be for an interview or for the job.

I appreciate the advice I've been getting here, so please don't hijack my thread, kay? :D

[patdem]

41. Ther's that little problem you will run into in the interview, hijack your

thread...what is that about? I have no idea even what 'hijacking' a thread means...I am only talking about MY experience in being hired? If you ask for advise and reject it ...fine..but the accusation that I am attempting somehow to hijack your thread??? that is going to haunt you on your job search...that is the humility of which I speak!

[patdem]

31. Men do not want to hear it....HUMILITY...that is the foot in the door

become the hero AFTER you are hired...and allow your 'potential' boss be the HERO till you are well structured in the firm....called COMMON SENSE? Unless of course you have gonads for brains???

[philosophie_en_rose]

37. As humble as Uriah Heep?

I've only been on a hiring committee once, but I was as turned off by the ass-kissing sycophants as the people who tried to reign over the office during the job interview.

I don't think that anyone should sacrifice their dignity to get a job. If that's what it takes to be hired, then the workplace would not be tolerable.

Show the hiring personnel why you would fit into the company, but don't be an aggressive suckup. Try to be tolerant, patient, and calm.

[patdem]

39. I do not think I referred to a commitee..only to your 'potential boss' ego

egos of men just fly around don't they..."I was on a hiring committee"...I do not recall talking about how to behave infront of a committee???? JUST your NEXT BOSS...get off your high horse and understand a person being hired by a PERSON...not a commitee...
in fact a camel is a horse designed by commitee...go get off your self importance?

On Edit...everything..and I bet I did not cover it all???

[Booberdawg]

38. Thanks for the time you all took and the pointers you gave

Pretty much as I suspected - I would do better to include only one degree relevant to whatever position I apply to. Probably start including a lot of other entry level poitions that I haven't considered before as well.

Thanks again everyone! :hi: DUers are the best!

[Booberdawg]

43. late night poke

[Booberdawg]

44. morning kick

:kick:

[Booberdawg]

45. kick

[Kat45]

46. Age discrimination is real, and it does effect those of us in our forties.

Sad, but true. I've been trying to get a job for quite some time as well, and a friend pointed out the age discrimination factor. He thinks that's why I didn't get some jobs that I thought I might get, and I think he's right. I've gone on interviews where anywhere from 4-10 folks interviewed me in succession, and maybe one or two was over 30. I also interviewed for a front desk at a very expensive health club, whose members were closer to my age than to the age of the interviewer, and probably got passed over because they preferred a young, vital look at the front desk. And of course, age discrimination is something you can't prove, unless an interviewer is stupid enough to make an age-related comment (doubtful).

And with all the interviews I've had, not one person had the decency/common courtesy to call me, or even send a letter or email, to let me know I didn't get the job. There were a few times that I left a voice mail to inquire about the status, and nobody even bothered to get back to me. Now, that is frustrating!

[Booberdawg]

47. I've had pretty good luck with getting courtesy calls after interviews

what few interviews I've had in the last 10 months that is. I had not considered an age bias so soon - in my 40's - though. Sheesh - I still have at least 20 years to go before I can retire!

Thanks for sharing what your experience has been, notmyprez. :-(