"What The Bleep Do We Know?"

[Syrinx]

Has anyone seen it?

It's a little movie about quantum physics and consciousness, if I understand correctly.

It's playing for the next few days in what is the closest thing we have to an art-house cinema in this town.

I'm curious to hear opinions from anyone who has seen it. I'm going to try to squeeze it in, but if I don't make by Thursday, it'll be gone.

Meant to include the website:

http://whatthebleep.com/

[ikojo]

1. Article in salon was not all that complimentary toward the movie

http://archive.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/09/16/bleep/

"Bleep" of faith
An indie film gets buzz and a big rollout. But "What the Bleep Do We Know!?" uses questionable on-screen experts -- and appears to be an infomercial for a controversial New Age sect.

snip

....At least one scientist prominently interviewed in the film now says his words were taken out of context. And two other key subjects in the film are not fully identified: a theologian who, the film fails to divulge, is a former priest who left the Catholic Church after allegations of sexual abuse; and a mysterious woman identified only as Judy "JZ" Knight, who is actually a sect leader claiming to channel a 35,000-year-old warrior spirit named Ramtha. The film's three co-directors are among those who follow Ramtha and look to Knight's channeled maxims to decipher the mysteries of life. These Ramtha followers reportedly number in the thousands. But critics call the sect a cult.

snip

David Albert, a professor at the Columbia University physics department, has accused the filmmakers of warping his ideas to fit a spiritual agenda. "I don't think it's quite right to say I was 'tricked' into appearing," he said in a statement reposted by a critic on "What the Bleep's" Internet forum, "but it is certainly the case that I was edited in such a way as to completely suppress my actual views about the matters the movie discusses. I am, indeed, profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantum mechanics with consciousness. Moreover, I explained all that, at great length, on camera, to the producers of the film ... Had I known that I would have been so radically misrepresented in the movie, I would certainly not have agreed to be filmed."

snip

Later in the film, a "scientist" explains that, thanks to the strangeness quivering below the subatomic level, meditating monks have lowered the crime rate in Washington, D.C. But not until the end of the film do we learn that the scientist making this claim, John Hagelin -- who once ran for president -- conducted the research while teaching (until 1999) at Maharishi University, the school named for the Beatles' guru. In JZ Knight's own publications, Ramtha's existence, too, is frequently explained in terms of quantum mechanics

snip

The impression left from sitting through a screening of "What the Bleep" is that a lot of people enjoy hearing their griping about religious fundamentalists reflected back to them, backed by science. There's also plenty of stroking of lefty values; Ramtha has declared that all world religions have in common "the suppression of women," adding, with the brashness surely fashionable in the 33rd century B.C., "No woman who had an abortion has sinned against God. Fuck all those assholes who tell you that." On the other hand, papers from Knight's 1992 divorce case with Jeffrey Knight hint that Ramtha is an ancient homophobe, who allegedly declared that AIDS was Mother Nature's way of "getting rid of" homosexuality and told Jeffrey Knight he should reject modern medicine and overcome the disease using the school's breathing techniques, according to court testimony. Tom Szimhart, a "deprogrammer" who testified on behalf of Knight's husband (who eventually died of the disease) called the Ramtha school a cult with an anti-scientific bent.

[Syrinx]

2. well, that's disappointing

Thanks for the info though. It sounded really interesting in the local paper. I might still go see it, but you just lowered the probability. :)

[serryjw]

11. As a Buddhist .......

nothing really new in the film. I enjoyed it BUT its only an introduction.
Funny, I do beleive that we can alter the crime wave if we all meditate!

[mr_hat]

13. Well, if by "we all" you include the criminals, I'm with you.

[jdots]

7. What is this reviewers problem ?

did they see the same little film as I did ? fucked up it's just a nice little film.this person has thier head up thier ass and should review peanut butter.

[housewolf]

3. Been held over in Phoenix for 38 weeks...

I've seen the film several times and think it's great!

Lots to think about, new ideas to ponder, good story line, some good special effects - basically I think it's well done, entertaining and educational.

For what it's worth, it's been playiing in Phoenix continually for 38 weeks, has developed quite a following.

By all means, try to make the time to go see it, I think you'll be glad you did.

[Desertrose]

4. I'll second that...go see it!

check out the website but if you can...go see it. I've seen it a few times and if it were here...I'd see it again. Am looking forward to the DVD!!

Also another movie... "Indigo" is coming out Jan29th...looks to be another good one.

[Syrinx]

5. are ya'll not concerned with the Ramtha connections?

Excuse my "y'all," I'm a southerner after all. :)

[Desertrose]

8. Ramtha is not one of my favorites, I'll admit...however

I am familiar enough with JZ Knight & his ideas that I know what to take and how far to go with his info...for me...its all about discernment. Ramtha is not new to me ...

Also here is a discussion we've been having in the MR for a few months now...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=111&topic_id=23725&mesg_id=23725

:hi: No problem, "y'all".... :)

[Syrinx]

14. thanks for the link

I didn't realize the film had been out so long. I guess things take a while to find their way to Tuscaloosa. ;)

[housewolf]

9. Nah...

I like to take ideas for what they're worth to me, not according to what other people think about the source of the ideas.

From what I've explored, Ramtha is no guru, there's no dangerous cult there.

The movie is full of great ideas, that's what I like about it. It serves to bring some theoretical scientific phsyics ideas to a comprehensible level.

[Dookus]

24. But do you believe

Ramtha is a 37,000 year old warrior speaking through a Tacoma woman?

[housewolf]

25. I don't know

I don't have an opinion on that. I have an opinion on specific information that I either find useful or stimulating, freeing or constaining. I can't vouch for it's ultimate truth in all places and all times.

I can vouch that some of what I have heard from Ramtha (and I am not a Ramtha student) expands my ideas as to what is possible in human life and I think that is a good thing. It is useful to me to hold it as a possibillity and experiement with some of the ideas in my own life. I don't need to hold it as "truth." It's the same way I approach religion - I can't take it on faith because I don't have that kind of faith, but I can embrace ideas that enhance my life.

It's about the information, to me. I doesn't matter to me where it comes from. I don't know that the Ramtha teachings come from a 37,000 warrior. It stretches my imagination to think that that may be so. But I do know that when Ramtha speaks through Ms. Knight, what is speaking is not the personality that others know as J.Z. Knight.

I'm not sure what is the correct word to describe it - be it "entity" or "personality" or "voice" or "energy" - but there is enough difference for me to accept that she does go into a altered state of consciousness and accesses information that is not available to her in her normal day-to-day consciousness. I believe that some unique individuals have had that ability throughout history, each era has stories of this type of state of consciousness. We are only just beginning to develop the scientific tools and methods to begin to study these realms.

Here's what I don't believe - I don't believe that J.Z. Knight is acting. I don't think she's a fraud and I don't think she's defrauding people or conning them. And my best reason for thinking that has to do with the quality of the information and how it helps expand peoples lives and does not harm or constrict people. It leads to greater freedom, happiness and self-expression and does not lead to dependence, repression or constriction, based on anecdotal evidence from people who have been Ramtha's students.

[housewolf]

26. Additionally

There are a number of established, academic quantum physisits in the movie, it's not all about Ramtha.

Go see it for yourself, that's all I can say. Decide for yourself. Don't let the critics tell you whether you're going to like it or not.

[Dookus]

27. But the "critics" quoted here

aren't saying it was artistically unpleasing. They're saying it's WRONG. They're saying it's deceitful. They're saying it's the product of hoaxters and charlatans.

If people believe JZ Knight doesn't stand to gain from Ramtha, that's just ignorant. She's made quite a nice career out of Ramtha.

[amazona]

32. well it is wrong

If you have studied physics, then you can understand just how wrong. I get tired of being told that quantum physics is something it isn't by people who wouldn't know physics or math if it bit 'em in the buns. I have a physics degree and they don't, so there!

Unfortunately, since you need the math to discuss quantum physics, it is impossible to divest them of their ignorance. They literally cannot know what they do not know. They don't have the tools.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[housewolf]

36. I am not going to argue or try to defend the film

or their interpretaions of quantum physics. I don't have the background to do so. Nor am I a Ramtha student or apologist.

I read the critical reviews posted here, and found them to be stem from the work of someone who is an anti-cult journalist. He defines the Ramtha group as a cult so be believes anything associated with it is bad. I don't have enough experiece with the group to have an opinion on that but it does not seem so to me.

Here is a link to were some involved with the film defend themselves from the charges
http://www.gorenfeld.net/images/response.pdf

I enjoyed the film, I don't have anything more to say about the subject.

[jdots]

6. I loved it,it has stayed with me.

odd little film not a great movie but a great movie because it makes you think.......

[Dancing_Dave]

10. You'll get more from "Quantum Physics look at the 2004 election"

Which is an article you can see for FREE:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0412/S00058.htm

[Squeegee]

12. A review from someone who knows something about quantum field theory

Peter Woit, a professor at Columbia University, had this to say about the film:

http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/blog/archives/000083.html

[Syrinx]

16. wow

That was pretty harsh. :o

[arwalden]

20. Some Quotes From Peter Woit (Thanks For The Link Squeegee)

"The film surpassed all expectations; it was certainly the stupidest thing I can remember seeing in a movie theater, and that's saying quite a lot (I see a lot of movies...)."

"The film has a web-site, and there is a long article in Salon explaining that the whole thing is really the production of a cult based in the Pacific Northwest that believes that a woman named JZ Knight is able to channel a 35,000 year old mystic named Ramtha."

"The whole thing is really moronic beyond belief."

http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/blog/archives/000083.html

[KittyWampus]

38. Gee, Another Scientist Who Takes His Preconcieved Ideas With Him

everywheres he goes. Typical.

It's not like you'd expect a Scientist to have an open mind and be willing to at least entertain alternate theories regarding the nature of existence.

[Squeegee]

44. He knows something about the subject matter

... unlike 99.99999% of the audience who goes to see this film. He merely states that the way Quantum Mechanics is presented in the film is completely off base and he thought it was a dumb film besides that.

[arwalden]

15. Sigh.

[Syrinx]

19. care to elaborate?

:)

I read about this movie in the local paper, and it sounded interesting. I've always been interested in quantum theory, but I admit I actually understand very little about it. I thought this movie might be a good way to educate myself, but I'm really disappointed to learn of JZ Knight's involvement in it. I had no idea.

[arwalden]

21. No. I'd Better Not Elaborate Right Now.

[Cadence]

17. I really liked it. I'd see it again.

But I read quantum physics books for fun..because I'm weird like that.

[LearnedHand]

18. EXCELLENT film!

Don't pay attention to the critics (many physicists are critical, for example); they miss the point entirely (that quantum physics provides us with rich METAPHORS for living our lives). You should probably read up a bit about quantum theory before seeing the film because it doesn't really explain the theories.

[Dookus]

22. So it's a movie

that pretends to be about quantum physics, but the audience should ignore the physicists who are critical about it? Even the ones who claim they were seriously misquoted?

I guess ANY movie can be "good" if you ignore ALL qualified critics.

[Desertrose]

31. Hello Dookus...I see you are back....

....and I see some things just never change,eh? :evilgrin:


:hi:welcome back
DR

[Dookus]

34. Hi DesertRose

thanks for the welcome.

Aren't you at all troubled by the physicists who find severe problems with the representations in the movie, especially the physicist who claims he was severely misrepresented?

[amazona]

33. yes it is a METAPHOR

Unfortunately it gets a little irritating when people come up to you and tell you that it is literal truth. What do they think quantum physics is? I have one man who is constantly proselytizing on this theme and I have come to realize that he honestly does not even know the meaning of the word "quantum."

People are welcome to use whatever parables they like to explain their religious beliefs, but when they start to claim that a parable is a literal description of reality, then they should expect to get called on it. Especially when they're "witnessing" to the unwilling. :-)

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[BrewerJohn]

23. Yawn. "Quantum physics and consciousness" is so '80s

I used to be mildly interested in that stuff back then, too. Then I went and actually studied quantum physics. The physics was so interesting that that other stuff faded into insignificance.

That's the nicest thing I can say.

[KittyWampus]

39. Enjoy Your Narrow World View And Lack Of Open-Mindedness

it's what I imagine a coffin would be like.

[DerekG]

28. I can't recall which of the two "spiritual" films I found more insulting

There was Gibson's Golgotha Chainsaw Massacre, which has managed to transmogrify the greatest love story of the Western world into a masochistic horror show, and then there was "What the Bleep Do We Know," an insipid pseudo-documentary that has managed to transfix legions of New Agers (but then, that's not a difficult feat--just vomit forth obtuse, sentimentalist generalities and be sure to take a few jabs at the major world religions, and the "natural fibers" crowd will eat it up).

When are we going to see another religious film like Kundun or The Last Temptation of Christ, both of which--neither banal nor savage--sought to explore the nature of suffering, obligation, and the mask(s) of God with sobriety and intelligence?

[KittyWampus]

40. My, You Certainly Put YOUR Ego Aside And Really Must Have Made

an attempt to step outside the box which is your little world.

So many posting on this thread are the compliments to Religous Fundies.

Good ole Science Fundies... they'll probably wake up AFTER the Religious ones.

[peacefreak]

29. I saw it & liked it.

It played at my local movie house for well over a month. I was a touch uncomfortable with the Ramtha connection, but feel that knowledge comes from all different kinds of sources. The seed can come from a fortune cookie or from a Nobel Laureate. The point is to make us look at something from a different point of view & THINK.

[Enraged_Ape]

30. Stay away. Go see it at a friend's house when it's out on DVD.

The movie is full of bad science, and when it actually DOES present tidbits of real science, it is presented entirely out of context.

Much of the movie is narrated by a woman (Ramtha/JZ Knight--neither of them are her real names) who claims she channels a 50,000-year-old spirit of a warrior from Atlantis. This somehow evades mention throughout the entire film.

But the Numero Uno reason not to see this film: The acting is bad. Horribly bad. A junior-high-school presentation of "The Glass Menagerie" bad.

[KittyWampus]

41. Bad Science= Non-Establishment Approved.

It's actually funny to see so many "progressive" posters being so totally programmed to accept the shrunken, calcified edifice which is "Western Science".

[Dookus]

42. Which science was it

that discovered quantum physics at all? Oh yeah... the evil WESTERN science (cue ominous music).

[Enraged_Ape]

43. And then there's that Theory of Gravity

If we all weren't such a bunch of sheep for the "establishment", we would see that objects are actually repelled by the Earth, and that objects actually remain at rest until Uri Geller moves them with his mind.

[Squeegee]

45. Shrunken and Calcified?

Somehow I don't see it. Western science has won out over all competing philosophies because of one thing, it works! I didn't see voodoo or Taoist philosophies put people on the moon or cure smallpox. The only thing shrunken and calcified, if anything, are people's inability to accept that science does a really good job at discovering the truth about the natural world.

[onecent]

35. I loved this movie and plan to see it again. n/t

[flamingyouth]

37. I saw it and found it quite entertaining

Like a lot of things, it should be taken with a grain of salt, but I enjoyed it and will probably watch it again when it comes out on DVD in March. :hi: