How did the whole thing about "spitting on troops" start?

[bbernardini]

You know, the classic line about people spitting on troops returning from Vietnam. Where did it start, and is there any proof that it ever really happened?

[imax2268]

1. I don't know...

but the righties sure love to throw that one in liberals faces...don't they...?

[SHRED]

5. They disregard history...

and write their own.

Fact is that the majority of U.S. citizens ended up being against the Vietnam occupation.


The righties would have you believe that it was just the long haired radicals that protested and treated the soldiers with disrespect and that media coverage, "lost" that "war".
It is well documented that returning troops got grief from all segments of society, they we're not welcomed back to the workplace very well, and many suffered mental illness that the military didn't treat.

Typical rightie bullshit. It's the same rightie mind game that rewrote/omitted, from our school history books, the truth about what bastards the "Discoverers", Pilgrims and covered wagon settlers were to the Native Americans in their quest for genocidal supremacy.

The same rightie bullshit that spouts off about, "The principles this country was founded on" while ignoring slavery and attempted extermination of the indigenous peoples.

Part of the requirement for being a rightie is to isolate historical facts and ignore the overall picture. It's called being narrow and closed minded.

[B Calm]

2. No one spit on me when I returned...

[ET Awful]

3. Despite all of the rhetoric, not one Vietnam vet I know (and I know

a LOT), has ever corraborated the stories.

I have yet to actually hear a vet outside of a movie say that they themselves experienced it.

[BBradley]

4. Everyone get your flame retardant out.

There are some DUers who swear up and down that they were spat on by some random hippie. I do not believe them. There are DUers who swear up and down that their spouse/SO was spat on by some random hippie. Likewise for their father, cousin, friend, etc. I'm not saying that no hippie in the history of hippiedom has ever hoched(sp?) a loogie on a vet, but I generally don't believe there were hippie spitting squads looking to land a juicy one on every other vet. Also, There is no hard evidence for the 101st spitting hippie brigade.

[rfranklin]

6. I've never seen any documentation of that urban legend...

I think this could have been a minor comment that was blown up into a spitting on the returning soldier who had just flown in from Vietnam. It is much more likely that a PTSD-afflicted vet beat the living shit out of a "hippie" who looked at him cross-eyed (probably from too many bong hits.)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. Could've been a normal protestor who talks like Daffy Duck. (nt)

[WildClarySage]

7. Is this like the Women Burned Their Bras story?

[Historic NY]

8. If I remember correctly most Vietnam soldiers came home in drips &

drabs, one or two at a time. It would seem that if there was an organized campaign there would have to be hundreds of people involved, which there were not. I suspect this was probably one story that was blown out of proportion (note we only hear one side of it). I can't see legions of spitters out there.

[Modem Butterfly]

9. I have a link at home about this story

Basically, a book came out in the early 80's which had an anecdote about a soldier being spit on. I believe the first Rambo movie had a spitting scene inspired by this book (I've never seen the movie, so don't quote me on this) and suddenly, a bunch of people started claiming that they had been spit on when they returned. Memory is funny that way- the older a memory is, the easier it is to get confused about it, and a strong suggestion can even create false memories.

[Crankie Avalon]

10. That bit about Rambo...

...was the first thing I thought of when I first saw this thread pop up, but I didn't post because I thought that couldn't be it and there would be some other answer.

If I remember right, it wasn't actually dramatized. It was just part of an angry monologue of this Rambo character's where he describes his fictional homecoming to some other character in the movie.

And the right runs with it as reality...:eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

14. Of COURSE they do!

It's a great tool to beat up any war skeptics. My partner, Will, is a veteran of the last Gulf War. During the run-up to the war, we were both very opposed to the whole thing, and people used to routinely say to him, "Well, just don't spit on the returning veterans like you guys did during Vietnam," Will would point out that 1) he was four when Vietnam ended and 2) Having been a returning veteran why would he spit on them? Usually the idiot would be reduced to some stupid non sequitor like "Well, thanks for your service," and in one instance, someone asked him how he could be opposed to THIS war since he fought in the last one. ???

[outraged2]

20. A movie with a spitting scene....

Born on the Fourth of July had a scene with returnees being spit on.

[Modem Butterfly]

21. I've noticed a lot of urban legends are portrayed in movies

I've often wondered if the urban legends are started by the movies or if the movies simply propagate the legends. Maybe the relationship is truly symbiotic. For example, I can remember being at a slumber party and hearing the story of the babysitter and the killer ("The call was coming from UPSTAIRS..."), which was the plot of a 70's horror movie. I can't remember if the party was before or after the movie came out.

[Beware the Beast Man]

11. It could have very well happened in a random case or two,

but yes, some folks make it sound as if there was an epidemic of spitting protestors in those days.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. There Are DU Vets Who Will Tell You It Happened

I know for sure TahitiNut had this happen to him. There are more who've stated so right on these forums. Before anybody here convinces you it never happened, you might want to talk to some of the liberal vets here at DU and get the facts straight.
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

15. Anecdotal evidence is all fine and well as far as it goes...

...but unfortunately, anecdotal evidence doesn't go very far.

With all due respect, I must state that frankly, I'll take these stories with a HUGE grain of salt until I see contemporary evidence. I'm not going to say that no returning Vietnam vet ever suffered being spit on, but I will say that I have seen no evidence showing that this was a wide-spread occurance.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. Ask TahitiNut!

He's a long time, well-respected DU'er and he says he was spit on! That's not anecdotal evidence, it's first person testimony!

Also, the question was not whether it was wide-spread. It was IF it happened. There is one long time comrade right here that to whom it happened.

Sorry, but i'll take his word for it as more weighty than your skepticism.
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

18. That's certainly your perogative

However, I think you need to review the meaning of the term "anecdotal". Also, for the record, the question was "How did the whole thing about "spitting on troops" start?", not "Were returning troops spat upon?"

[ProfessorGAC]

23. Yeah, I Need Etymology Lessons From You

Don't be ridiculous. I posited that there is someone right here who can corrborate that this event did indeed occur. You are so blinded by rejection of anything a rightwinger might say, that you refuse to accept the truth.

Seems fairly republican to me.
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

24. You need to dial it back there, Flame Boy

We're not talking about a single event here, but an entire phenomenon. An individual unverifiable account is simply not proof of that, as I think you know.

I'm not sure why you have decided to make such a low, personal attack, but I'm going to assume that it's a reflection of your emotional state rather than a lack of character.

[bobbobbins]

25. I'm going to have to agree with the professor here

While I don't think spitting on troops was a widespread occurance, if someone here on DU said it happened to them, I see no reason not to believe it. Why would they lie about that? What kind of agenda could they possibly have that would lead them to claim they were spit on?

I think you should just accept that while it perhaps wasn't as widespread as it was made out to be, it did indeed happen.

[Modem Butterfly]

26. I said as much myself in post 15

I'm not going to say that no returning Vietnam vet ever suffered being spit on, but I will say that I have seen no evidence showing that this was a wide-spread occurance.

Was a particular individual spat on as he returned from Vietnam? I don't know. As an individual claim, I see no reason to doubt it (or, to be honest, believe it). However, an individual's experience is simply not proof that it happened to anyone else, which is what GAC seems to be arguing.

Edited to add: In the interest of fair disclosure, I did volunteer work with veterans for a number of years. About 1/3 of Vietnam-era veterans that I encountered reported being spit on, the rest reported FOAF-type stories. Everyone of the Vietnam-era vets seemed to at least know someone who claimed to have been spat upon.

[bobbobbins]

27. So you think that this one guy was the only one that got spit on?

[Modem Butterfly]

29. I don't know

And to be fair, I haven't even seen his claims for myself yet.

My own mother recalls paying a steep ticket price to get into Alamount, which was actually free. When you're talking about events that happened nearly 40 years ago, memories can be unreliable, which is why I consider anecdotal evidence to be just that, in the absence of contemporary evidence. So as far as whether or not Vietnam vets were spat upon in large numbers, I am frankly skeptical. But I am certainly not confused about the current use of the idea by the GOP.

[ProfessorGAC]

28. Excuse Me, Modem. You Started It

Pretty convenient to tell me i don't know the definition of anecdotal and then act insulted when i choose to let you know that i'm perfectly capable of understanding the definition of the word. Yes, in a tone that was reciprocal to yours.

I knew i was flaming. Apparently, you do it so often that you fail to understand. And, a direct source is NOT anecdotal! It's a DIRECT source. Anecdotal data has to be a loose collection of stories obtained beyond the first person contact. That's why it's not hard data, because the information was not directly learned.

My character is perfectly fine thank you. I just don't take insults lying down.
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

31. I disagree

I certainly meant no offense. Unfortunately, it seems, I can't say the same for you. And that's a shame.

You can try to turn this conversation into a pissing match over semantics, but I'm simply not playing. I'm familiar with the allegations. I've known men who claim to have been spat upon themselves, some I found more credible than others. But in the absence of individual, contemporary, documentary evidence, I simply remain skeptical. If you find that to be Republican, again, that's your prerogative.

[ProfessorGAC]

32. Ignoring The Truth Is Republican

Being skeptical is healthy. Refusing the truth, told by one of our own, educated, and thoughtful members, is a conservative trait.

And, telling me i don't know the definition of anecdotal could not POSSIBLY be unintentionally insulting. You knew you were being snide. You knew it was insulting. Now, you're hiding behind a wall of ignorance. You know, sort of like the Bushites saying "we really thought there were WMD's."

I'm engaging in NO pissing contest. You are! You brought up the definition over anecdotal evidence. You doubted the veracity of a DU'er who was in Vietnam. You are so convinced you're right, that you don't want to hear anything that contradicts a preconceived notion.

That's EXACTLY what conservatives do. That's not an insult. That's a fact. You might want to consider if you're skepticism has not fallen into cynicism and close-mindedness.
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

33. And what truth would that be, exactly?

Someone on an otherwise anonymous message board says that someone else on the same message board has made a claim that is simliar to claims made by other people. What, exactly does this prove?

[ProfessorGAC]

37. Further Discussion Is Pointless

If you want to call a liberal veteran and DU'er a liar, that's on you.

You are now both boring me and insulting TahitiNut. I'm out.
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

39. Why am I not surprised?

I certainly don't want to call TahitiNut, you or anyone else a liar. But if you want to claim that his individual experience proves that Vietnam veterans were spit on in droves, then you have to explain why the experiences of individual Vietnam veterans who weren't spit on doesn't disprove the story. To do otherwise, by your logic, is to call those people liars.

[ProfessorGAC]

41. Find My Use Of The Word "Droves"

This is why it's boring. You called me a liar, you called a friend a liar, and now you're putting words in my mouth.

What would you call that?
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

42. I didn't call anyone a liar

Nor did I claim that you used the word droves. However, you have attempted to use what you claim as one individual's story to prove droves of other individual's stories.

Perhaps this thread would be more interesting if you would actually read the posts before you respond to them.

:evilgrin:

[ProfessorGAC]

43. I Made No Such Claim

Again you put words into my mouth. And you wonder why i got mad. Surprisingly simple. All i said was that the OP should contact TahitiNut. That's it. It HAPPENED TO HIM!

That's it. Then, you went ballistic and questioned my veracity, his, and started hurling insults.

I suggest YOU carefully read my posts. You will find no generalizations in my post. Only that there is a DU'er to whom it did happen. That's it. You are the one continually supporting your thesis by claiming things i never suggested.

That is either calling me a liar, or it is lying. There is no third choice.
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

45. Then what on earth are you getting so hot about?

I have consistantly claimed that whatever happened, or didn't happen, to TahitiNut or any other individual veteran has absolutely no bearing on the larger "Vietnam Vets were spat upon" story.

From post 15: With all due respect, I must state that frankly, I'll take these stories with a HUGE grain of salt until I see contemporary evidence. I'm not going to say that no returning Vietnam vet ever suffered being spit on, but I will say that I have seen no evidence showing that this was a wide-spread occurance.

Post 24:We're not talking about a single event here, but an entire phenomenon. An individual unverifiable account is simply not proof of that, as I think you know.

Post 31:I've known men who claim to have been spat upon themselves, some I found more credible than others. But in the absence of individual, contemporary, documentary evidence, I simply remain skeptical.

Time to confess: You're just fucking with me now, aren't you?

[Touchdown]

35. Actually it is anecdotal

Since it is you, not TahitiNut saying that he was spit upon.

Sorry to butt in, but until Tahitinut comes in here and says so himself, it's still second hand reporting, and thus anecdotal. Just wanted to clarify that.

BTW: I have no axe to grind here, one way or another. In every stereotype, there is a thread of truth in it, so I don't doubt that spitting did occur, just not as others say, and epidemic.:hi:

[ProfessorGAC]

36. Wrong!

I'm not going to get into this further. But, you don't know the facts. This has been a point of discussion MANY times on DU, and TN has always chimed in. He just spends little time in The Lounge. I told the OP to contact him for information. I sent him DIRECTLY TO THE SOURCE. That is not anecdotal.
The Professor

[Touchdown]

40. Hey, I didn't chime in to start something.

I was only making a simple semantic point. I'm not coming down on you, or flaming you. Any offense you've taken is all on you, Pal.

I have no doubt that this happened to TN, because I have no reason to disbelieve him or you repeating his story for that matter, but the fact remains is it's his story, not your's, which makes the info second hand.

[ProfessorGAC]

44. Explaining What You Said . . .

. . .when i already read your first post doesn't make you any more correct. It's not anecdotal. It's a direct first person account. I didn't say i knew it. I told the OP to contact TN and ask him. It happened to him! That's not an anecdote. It's a factual report.
The Professor

[Touchdown]

48. And I wasn't responding to your directing the OP.

I was respoonding to a subsequent one, where you said he said it. I am not disputing any account as factual or not. Must be confusing me with another.

[Modem Butterfly]

47. Exactly what I was getting at

[Beware the Beast Man]

19. Yes, I'd consider that a primary source, not "anecdotal."

I swear, some folks get so wrapped up in their ideology that they deny (or spin) any account if it conflicts with what they believe to be true. Sadly, people do that on all sides of the argument.

[July]

17. There's a book on this topic.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the title, but it has "spit" or "spitting" in it. IIRC, it says that these stories cropped up around the late seventies, but that there are no contemporaneous reports of such incidents, except for those recounting cases of wingers spitting on hippies or protesters. Sorry, my memory's not very detailed, that's all I've got.

[wicket]

22. "The Spitting Image"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0814751474/qid=1105541238/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/002-6301442-6880040?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[July]

30. Thanks, wicket, that's it. nt

[wicket]

34. no problem :)

If you ever want to piss off a right-wing nut, tell them to read this book. Works like a charm every time :evilgrin:

[oneighty]

38. Also

Stolen Valor--How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes and its History. By B.G.Burkett and Glenna Whitley.

In this book phony veterans with phony stories are exposed.

180

[dr.strangelove]

46. Not quite spitting - but it was bad at times

but there was cursing, protesting and even some throwing other shit at my dad. Dad came back in 1967. He told me that a guy threw a coffee thermos at him. Back then thermoses were glass lined and were pretty heavy. He freaked out and charged the guy and a cop had to restrain him. Then other people threw shit at him. I don't recall where he arrived, but it was probably Stewart. He passed on, so I am left with only my shoddy memories of him talking about it.

[DrWeird]

49. "Spitting on troops" =

Not supporting the war.

Kind of like Support the troops = Support Bush.