Maybe I shouldn't have come back...

[Gringo]

My poll has shown a significant majority of DUers are now in the Clark camp. I must say I'm pretty disappointed. In the 3 months I was gone, I got to meet Dean at the NAACP convention here in Miami, and saw a few of his speeches on c-span, and I was so impressed in his growth as a candidate.

And yet, a sort of cold cowardice seems to have taken root here. The support for the untried Clark, who has NEVER taken up a political cause in his life, is disturbing to me. His fundamental conservatism makes me nervous, and his mediocre speaking skills do too - they won't serve him well. The fact that he is backed by the Clintons (I would have NEVER supported anyone as far to the right as Clinton without that Clinton charisma) doesn't thrill me either. I like Dean's call on us to take our party back. We've put in a lot of money and effort into that worthwhile cause. I'll be sorely disappointed if we drop that ball again and get suckered in by the doe-eyed general.

He will be an improvement over Bush, yes, but Dean could easily win, too, and would be a MUCH more effective president.

If Clark is really the darling here, I may be at the wrong place.

[indigo32]

1. Hey Gringo

there are still plenty of Dean supporters, and other candidate supporters. Hang in there and check the bat :)

[HEyHEY]

2. It's funny

On Saturday (As I already said) I was at a party talking US politics with this dude...afterwards my frined told me the guy was legally mentally unstable (I don't know the real term) Anyway..he was a big Clark booster.

(Not that I CARE PEOPLE...just telling a story...that outta stop the flaming)

[Cha]

3. We all have our favorite candidates....I'm glad you're Back!

Stick around and keep up the Good Work, Gringo!
There is a lot of it to be done! :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Look on the bright side

Nobody voted for Bush :D

Welcome back.

[Paragon]

5. I agree completely, but...

...it seems if the words "Retired General" before Clark's name are enough to get Dem numbers to skyrocket, then I'm all for whoever takes out Chump.

[hlthe2b]

6. Disagree: DU is an ABB camp....

yeah, plenty of folks have started to harden their views/support, but that could all go out the window if their chosen candidate loses the nomination.

Having said that, I am undecided. I like Clark and think he may well be the one who can beat Bush. But, and that is a big but, I also like Dean-- a lot! I like Kerry. THe rest, including Edwards, I like a great deal too. I could support them readily (except Lieberman, who I could only support if he were the last DEM standing), but find them less electable. Kucinich is the most pure in his liberal views, but I just see him getting decimated in any national election...

So, take a breather and let me encourage you to not harden your views too fast. ABB is really the only way we can think right now. The nominating convention is still a long way off and everyone has time to refine their views.

[roughsatori]

7. ABB has backfired. Some people here now use that meaning: Clark

It is implicit in their posts. That is touted as a way to stifle criticism. Under ABB that would mean voting for Ashcroft if he changed his party affiliation.

There are some of us here who have declared ourselves: ABBOC. Anybody but Bush or Clark.

I have heard the claim of ABBORL (or Lieberman) and those people where not attacked with the vociferousness that those who oppose Clark's nomination have been attacked.

If Clark gets the nomination, his supporters better be right about Clark getting moderate Republican votes, because he will be losing some left-wing democratic party voters. That is irrelevant to many of his supporters. Even some newer DUers seem to prefer moderate Republicans to Leftist Democrats. :shrug:

[Gringo]

9. I've seen nothing that would make me not vote for Clark

IF he got the nomination. I just don't see him as the best combination of electability and progressive ideas. A right-winger like Clinton worked out because of his massive charm, but Clark doesn't have that much charm, or well-defined political philosophy.

[cally]

8. Oh you'll fit right in..

I'm glad you are back and I hope you are feeling better.


Some folks have made an informed, honest decision to support Clark. Some hear support Dean, Kerry, Kucinich, Sharpton, Edwards and maybe some support Lieberman. I respect all their choices and I refuse to defame anyone for their personal preference. I may not like the candidate but this bashing is just too extreme.

Welcome back. Put on your asbestos suit.

edited: Because I was just too harsh.

[Gringo]

10. I am expressing doubts about a candidate

and the motivations (cowardice) of those who support him. If Clark had a political record to run on, it might be different. A candidates' political history is always one of the primary factors I look at and he has none.

I think they are being cowardly in rushing in so soon to support such a candidate. I don't see how that's "defamation". I've been called much worse (check out some of the Clarkie responses to my poll in GD).

[SWPAdem]

11. Excuse me

I am not a teenager, a moron, or easily fooled. I have been in Democratic politics for over 30 years. I have been watching and researching Clark for months. Just because you look at "political history" does not mean that I have to. Voting records can be highly deceiving, as when issues are attached to omnibus bills.

I don't care if someone does not like Clark, but I am sick and tired of people questioning the motives, intelligence or ideological purity of those that support him.

[Gringo]

12. Excuse yourself

Nobody called you any of those things. I looked into Clark months ago, too, and fount nothing, other than a fine academic and military record (thought his handling of Kosovo seems to be a point of contention for some). That's not enough for me.

"I don't care if someone does not like Clark, but I am sick and tired of people questioning the motives, intelligence or ideological purity of those that support him."

I would be within my rights to question any of those things, but I did not question them. An extremely smart person can be gullible, and if I was about ideological purity, I'd be for Kucinich. You're perfectly entitled to hitch your wagon to a horse you've never seen pull, which may very well turn out to be a goat. If it is a goat, it may pull you over the finish line, but keel over and be worthless once you're there.

As a Dean supporter since March, I've learned to have a thin skin. I will defend him tirelessly against unfair smears, but I'm not going to have a fit taking offense everytime someone bashes the "Deanyboppers". Get a thicker skin - I'm still undeceided on Clark, but if he starts to look like a big-time DINO, I will take the gloves off for him and his adoring supporters.

[HEyHEY]

13. Easy boys drop the guns!

Take it to the GD..we're all too stoned to deal with this in the lounge

[Gringo]

15. LOL - Who the hell is that creepy picture?

Unless it's you, then it's very dashing...

[HEyHEY]

16. Bobby Orr

I take it you aren't a hockey fan? ;-)

[Gringo]

17. OIC - Bobby Orr

Looks like Dumbya but with TV Morning-show hair. Creepy.

[HEyHEY]

19. I thought that too

I was worried people may think I had a * pic going...Forrestgump says it looks liek pat boone

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. I think it looks like Bobby Orr

but then again I love hockey.

[WilliamPitt]

18. Reeeeeeally

So talking about "a sort of cold cowardice" and Clark supporters is not giving them the back of your hand? Interesting. I would have thought otherwise, but what the fuck, this is the Lounge.

[Gringo]

22. Will Pitt, I Love ya, but

I calls them as I sees them. It's the feeling I get from the board, like "Things are sort of going our way, we have a chance to win, better not blow it on a democrat - the voters might balk! Let's go the safe way with the war hero we know nothing about! We can't lose!' If Bush's poll #'s were sky-high, maybe more people would be willing to gamble on a proven democrat.

I don't hate these people for thinking like that - I understand it perfectly. And a good chunk of them my be conservative enough that they wouldn't mind if Clark turned out to be a total DINO.

The only way I can describe the sentiment I'm seeing is a "cold cowardice" It's not meant as a personal slam against the Clarkies, who I KNOW want to oust Bush as badly as I do. I'm sorry that they take it that way .

And don't say I'm bashing Clark for implying that he's not a dem. I'll believe he is a dem when I see a LOT more evidence that he is one.

[WilliamPitt]

28. I don't mind you calling 'em as you see 'em

That's a good quality. But you shouldn't plead ignorance or innocence when someone gets steamed about your implication of cowardice. Just my 0.02 cents.

[SWPAdem]

20. Since this is the lounge

I will not say anything other than your original post, as well as your reply to me prove my point. Talk about thin skin.......

[LWolf]

14. Welcome back, Gringo.

Still plenty of Dean supporters here, and all of us who support one of the other 8 or 9, and those who are undecided. You'll still find thin-skinned supporters of every candidate who perceive every criticism as flame/bash. You'll still find trollers who drop in to turn discussion into war. You'll still find some really great people who like to talk regardless of candidate support. Same DU, with another candidate to stir things up. Check out the new rules proposed for GD. Tell us what you think before voting day!

:hi:

[roguevalley]

21. I don't care who anyone supports. Its personal.

But I really am irritated to hear 'cold cowardice' about
Clark and his supporters. I've listened to Dean ranting
since Dean caught fire here. I have never put Deanies down.
I find this all so tiresome.

[Gringo]

24. If I said there was a "hatred building" among Dean supporters

Would that make them hateful people? No. They hate Bush.

By the same token, the fact that a cold cowardice in the form of running to the unknown savior has taken hold of DU does not mean that the Clarkies are cowards per se. I do believe though, that they are succumbing to their fears of some kind of McGovern-type loss, which I simply don't believe would happen with Dean or Kerry. they claim to love Clarek, but I contend that most of them know only an outline sketch of who he is. If that constitutes a smear of Clarkies, then fine, I'm smearing them.

But the repugs are the ones who really know about smearing...

[SWPAdem]

25. Could you please explain exactly how

you know exactly what is in anybody else's mind, or what their motives are? Or, has Ms. Cleo finally come up for air?

[Ripley]

23. DU sucks

Sometimes. So does Clark, sometimes.

I'm a Dean supporter who is here.

[SingSong]

26. I don't get why you left

no access to the internet to express your views for 3 months?

What does a "cold cowardice" mean? I didn't get a good bit of information from what you said.

Dean's not calling on us to take our "party back." He's calling us to take our country back - it's our flag too.

Mixed up thoughts in this post.

edit: would you vote for Bush if he had Charisma? That's what your words say.

[Gringo]

29. Hey SingSong!

"no access to the internet to express your views for 3 months?"

No, I was too addicted to DU, spending precious hours daily posting.

"What does a "cold cowardice" mean? I didn't get a good bit of information from what you said."

It was the only words that came to mind to express the sudden flocking of people to a completely unknown, and possibly not democratic, candidate when there are many others with real records to choose from.

"Dean's not calling on us to take our "party back." He's calling us to take our country back - it's our flag too."

Well, I think he's calling for both.

"edit: would you vote for Bush if he had Charisma? That's what your words say."

No, even with all his faults and center-right ideology, Clinton was no Bush, and had a lot of potential for positive change wrapped up in that charisma. Who knows what he could have accomplished if he had kept lil' Willie restrained from 1990 to 2000?