My thoughts on Affirmative Action

[TXlib]

I think AA is, in general, a good idea. As long as racism persists in society, some form of AA is needed to level the playing field.

However, its detractors insist that AA is, itself, nothing but reverse discrimination.

I, myself, have some misgivings with the way it is applied in education (I know much less about its application in the workforce, so I'd be happy if somebody else could chime in on this aspect).

In education, often the race is factored in so as to give the applicant bonus points for his race. IMHO, what we're really trying to combat is the effect of poverty (borne disproportionately by minorities) on pre-university education. Why not target the intended problem directly?

Rather than making race the factor that gives an applicant special consideration, this status should instead be attached to the high school from which the applicant graduated. A poor school district will put all its students equally at a disadvantage. Similarly, a minority student whose parents are both middle/upper middle class or wealthier, who went to a top-notch school, is not disadvantaged when it comes to college preparation.

Any school so flagged as being a disadvantaged school could then also be put on some action plan to try to improve its status, with the goal being to elevate it to the point that it is no longer on the disadvantaged list.

Pros of this suggestion:

* It attacks the direct cause of the educational disadvantage, poverty.

* Poverty is disproportionately borne by minorities in America, so this proposal is still functionally equivalent to the current AA scheme, but AA's current detractors will no longer be able to claim it is reverse discrimination.

* Not only does it offer immediate relief for those from poor school districts, but it by identifying poor schools, it allows for remediation of the root problem.

Cons:

* Although I believe college admissions staff to be a population of fairly non-bigoted individuals, I could be wrong on this assumption.

* There may be non-financial factors related to race that would cause a minority student in a wealthy high school to receive unequal treatment. (Having taught college for 10 years, I can attest that there is some "soft racism" -- that is, teachers giving minority students leniency that their white counterparts don't get; therefore, they don't have to work as hard to get the same grade.)


So, what do you think? Do you feel any of my assumptions are flawed? Do you feel this is a better way to elevate all members of our society? Do you feel AA, as it is currently implemented, is fine, or do you have a proposal different from my own?

[physioex]

1. I agree with lot of what you are saying....

I would like to add that one of the most talked about subject is AA in the sense of minorities. What about Rich Affirmative Action (RAA)? How do you think people like W and daughters got into college? By listening to the man speak and understanding his reasoning skills does he sound like a "Yale Graduate"?

[TXlib]

3. RAA

I assume you mean "legacy" programs?

I read that more universities are starting to de-emphasize that.

As for the very wealthy buying their children's way in, I don't know if there's much you can do about it.

[Vincardog]

2. It is obvious which schools are underfunded and producing poor students.

A Plan is not what they need. Money, Facilities, involved Parents are what is needed. What we need more than AA is a growing economy rising wages and good opportunities for everyone not just the rich.

[TXlib]

4. Mostly involved parents.

[ThorsHammer]

5. I like the socio-economic idea too

I didn't like the prior, 'automatic bonus points' system, but don't have a problem with race being used as a factor. I'd like to see socioeconomic status being given more preference, as these are the people who really need the help. More importantly, we should try and fix the root causes of the underperforming schools. AA can help some, but is more of a bandaid than a cure.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. AA is more than a socio-economic program for the poor.

AA strives to get minority members properly represented in positions of authority so they in turn can have a say in hiring decisions as well as having a say in influencing legislation that will help even out the playing field. Basically, minority legislators would be in the best position possible to point out the areas in our system that perpetuates inequalities in our society.

This isn't working out too well, however, as Republicans are moving quickly to appoint minority members into positions, knowing fully well that those minority members are hand-picked specifically because they won't upset the status quo.

[ThorsHammer]

12. I think we actually agree

I support socioeconomic AA, both to give people help and to help build future generations by putting them in positions of authority. My point was more that AA is still just a bandaid approach and doesn't address the bad schools and other inequalities. AA is fine, but we need to do more.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. Then we agree completely.

By the way, you know what you need to do in public schools? Here's your answer:

Start applying the same teaching techniques to regular kids that we presently use for the Slow Learning Disabled. This isn't a put down. My daughter was diagnosed SLD, but only allowed to take the special classes because she was tested and found to have a high I.Q. The public schools won't let an at-risk-child take SLD classes unless they have a high I.Q. They don't think it's cost-effective to do otherwise. In addition to the SLD classes, I got her special one hour tutors atleast once or twice a week. Cost me about $20.00 an hour for six years. Those tutors weren't just any tutors. They were teachers that knew the SLD program.

Anyway, though my daughter is still classified as SLD because she does have a reading disability, she is in two honors classes and has a very high G.P.A. I believe it's over 4.0, but I have to look how her score is weighted to be sure.

So the answer is very simple to me. Apply the SLD program to everone in public school that needs special attention regardless of I.Q. and offer free one hour tutorings after school for those who are high risk. One of the benefits is that it also teaches them how to study and prepares them for the higher grade levels.

The other thing is to push for spelling tests. Public schools in my area do away with them because they believe spelling is not a learned skill. Some of the incredible policies that happen around here, when you underfund public schools. I blame it on the Republicans for cutting budgets.

[iamjoy]

6. You May Be On To Something

Doing Affirmative Action by income level would be a sort of compromise. Although it is true that there is soft discrimination, in the corporate world as well as education. I think often it is unconscious - the person discriminating isn't even aware they are doing it. I believe studies have been done showing students with "unusual" names are graded more toughly (on subjective things) than students with common/easy names (Shequira versus Sally). But I don't have a source on this, so take it with a grain of salt.

As for outright affirmative action by race, I have a perspective that isn't really P.C. but here it is nontheless - if you are a white person thinking that some less qualified black person took your job or slot in college, just think of it as reparations (for slavery and years of racism)

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. In a free society, you'll never be able to completely destroy prejudice

and its effects. So I don't see the need for AA diminishing anytime in my natural lifetime. Critics say that people hate minorities BECAUSE of AA, but that's disingenuous because there has never been a time in America's history where, left alone, corporations and individuals did the right thing and hired a diverse workforce on there own.

In fact, the opposite has happened. Where they have removed AA, the number of black college recruits have dropped considerably; the number of contracts awarded to minority based businesses have fallen. And through it all, the crony good ole boys have claimed that it's because the minorities or minority groups were not good enough. (When the reality is that the workmanship of the good ole boys is worse. They just know how to grease the palms of the local agencies that would regulate them.)

[Kahuna]

8. If Reagan and the repukes had not put the kibosh on AA 20 years

ago, we probably wouldn't be talking about it today because it would be an anachronism.

[mark414]

10. it's not reverse discrimination

the concept of affirmative action came to light because there was not a level playing field, and there's still not a level playing field in america.

you can't discriminate against someone who's at the top of the ladder while you're stuck at the bottom, it's just not possible.

[TXlib]

13. From dictionary.com

dis·crim·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nshn)
n.
1. The act of discriminating.
2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

Based of definition #3, I'd say that the argument that AA as currently practiced is discrimination has merit. But that's not the heart of the issue; it's whether focused discrimination countering a wider, societal bias is (a) justified, and (b) effectual.

Although I personally believe it is justified, many do not, and if there is a way to recast AA to accomplish much the same goal in a manner that rubs fewer people the wrong way, I'm all for it.

As far as being effectual, I think we can do better than we currently are, and to me, the attitude "We can do better" pretty much defines liberalism.

[mark414]

17. i know what discrimination means

my post stands

[TXlib]

18. My point only is

that you can discriminate against anybody.

Had you claimed that such discrimination couldn't harm somebody who is on top, that is something I'd be more inclined to agree with.

[mark414]

20. that's what i said

there's no such thing as "reverse discrimination" because white people aren't affected by it. jeru the damaja said it best, "i don't have the power to be a racist" (he's a black hip hop artist)

[TXlib]

21. I think we're arguing over semantics

If your definition of "racist" includes the power to harm others, then you may have a point.

Personally, I think everybody has the ability to be a racist, to discriminate, to be discriminated against, etc.

But I agree that one class of people has more power over the other, and therefore can do more harm.

[ikojo]

11. I agree with class based affirmative action programs but I also

think race should be factored in to some degree. I grew up in a lower middle class family (qualified for free school lunch until my sophomore year when I then only qualified for reduced lunch because there were fewer kids at home) and was the first in my family to attend college. However, I was in the college prep program at my high school and there was only one black girl in the same tracked classes as me. My school was 50% black and 50% white (Springfield, IL really didn't have a Hispanic population at that time, not sure about now). Why is it that there was only one black student in the college prep (AP) classes? FYI: we all pretty much came from the same middle schools, but not the same elementary schools.

While we attended the same school, it appeared we didn't have the same educational opportunities.

Poor and working class kids of all races face a culture shock when they get to college. In my case I met kids who had been to Europe and all around the US as kids. They had been to camp and had those stories to tell. I had not been outside Illinois (other than to St Louis) until I was 18 when I went to Florida to visit my dad (he had lived there since I was 12). I had poor social skills and didn't know how to relate to many of the kids on my floor at school.

I think it would be nice if colleges worked with these kids, who are often the first in their families to attend college, to help them with the transition. It isn't just about getting in, but about STAYING in and help with the culture shock of being around more well off kids sure would have helped me.

[TXlib]

14. Question

While we attended the same school, it appeared we didn't have the same educational opportunities.

Do you mean that students of different races at the same school had different educational opportunities?

Certainly, there is a distribution of wealth at all schools; the poorest family whose children attend a wealthy school district may not be able to afford to send them to Europe, or participate in "extra" educational activities. Is this what you mean, or does it go deeper? If this is your concern, I regard it (possibly naively) as a second-order correction to the problem of the huge disparity between school districts to begin with.

I think it would be nice if colleges worked with these kids, who are often the first in their families to attend college, to help them with the transition. It isn't just about getting in, but about STAYING in and help with the culture shock of being around more well off kids sure would have helped me.

My alma mater did exactly this. They recruited students from poor schools all over the state, both urban and rural, who were clearly exceptional students, but never had the opportunity to become as well-prepared as those from more wealthy districts.

They brought them in early, for the summer before their freshman year, and sent them through an academic boot camp. They provided close academic support for the first two years, as well. I was a tutor for the program; I tutored these students in math and physics.

It would be great if more colleges did this.

[ikojo]

16. For the most part white kids attended all white

elementary schools when I was a kid (1970s). There was one black girl in my elementary school and she didn't come until I was in 5th grade and getting ready to go to middle school (junior high).

The middle school and high school took kids from all over the north side of Springfield (lower middle class area but there are parts where people have money). Black and white kids were in the same school building but not necessarily in the same classes. Even in sixth grade I took more honors type classes and there were few black kids in those classes. Being a kid I don't know what was required to attend those classes. It was the same way in high school. The Springfield schools tracked kids then as they do now.

What I remember about high school is this: The only time I had more than one black kid in my classes were for the required classes (gym, health/sex ed, government) where a high track (AP) option was not available. As I said before, there was only one black girl in my AP classes (her brother was also in the AP classes but a year ahead of us).

I took several years of Spanish and once I got beyond the third year, there was one black girl (my best friend through high school and in college..sadly we lost contact once I left) in my advanced Spanish classes.

Maybe it was different at some of the other schools in Springfield, IL (and I hope it's different now. I will ask my nephew who attends the same school and takes AP type courses). The black kids at my school tended to come from the projects and probably had HORRIBLE educational experiences in elementary school. Poor schooling as young children may be why there were so few black kids in my AP classes in high school.

[TXlib]

19. Two thoughts immediately come to mind

One is that the disparities at the elementary level must be addressed before one can hope to remedy those at the high school level.

The other is that there may be a cultural difference in the level of parental involvement, but I can't begin to guess whether this is a result of race, or of poverty, or both. I remember Bill Cosby made a comment along these lines, and was both praised and criticised for it.

[Nikia]

22. I think that is why some schools shy away from it

That is recruiting intercity students, preferring to recruit blacks who went to "white" high schools or who otherwise had "white" culturual experience. As you said though, it isn't just blacks who may have these culturual adjustments. Although I seemed to fit in well after a short adjustment (There are several reasons for this.), despite the fact that I grew up in a much less affluent background than most of my classmates, my roomate whose parents were much richer than mine did not. She was from a very sparsely populated part of the Northwoods and wasn't used to intellectuals. My husbands roomate, a young man from a sparsely populated farming area, had a similiar problem even though he did have the advantage over my rommate of belonging to a sports team as I did.
Helping these students out is in some sense a good idea. On the otherhand, some students might not want to be labled as culturually or economically disadvantaged, which might make some kind of organization difficult to implement. Black students might not have a problem with joining an organization for black students, but they might have a problem joining an organization for disadvantaged students, no matter what you call it. Perhaps pairing such a student with a successful upperclassman of a similiar background might be a way to help them out without drawing a lot of attention to their disadvantage.