Minor rant: the cost of textbooks.

[Padraig18]

I nearly had a coronary when I saw the bill for Tony's law-school texts and hornbooks--- almost $600!!!!!!! That's as much as our mortgage payment, insurance and utilities for a month!

:wow::grr:

/rant off

[democracyindanger]

1. minor rave

Guaranteed end-of-term beer money. :P

/rave off

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

2. And then when you try to sell them back ...

no professor will be using the books for the next semester . Argh .

[tcfrogs]

5. Or, take Tax Accounting

whose books are only good for one year, cost nearly $100, and you can't sell them back either!

[Reverend_Smitty]

3. One book...

$119 dollars! nuff said!

all the others added up to about $400 this semester

[tcfrogs]

4. Hope you're feeling better!

You must be in the cheaper part of Chicago that I don't know about with a $600/mo. mortgage payment!

[Padraig18]

7. We're downstate.

Yeah, $600/month would get you a medium-sized storage unit, in the city.

:P

[tcfrogs]

34. For whatever reason I thought you two were in Chicago

But you can only get a small-sized storage unit there for $600. :)

[SeveneightyWhoa]

6. Yeah its crazy.

But I don't have that much of a problem with it. I buy used if its an older book (which they almost always are), and then sell it under consignment, which takes 15%. Basically I'm just charged a 15% fee to rent the book for a year (or more). Not bad at all, really.

[mike_c]

8. I'm a university prof and frankly, I'm not very sympathetic...

...to most such complaints. Look, I still have MANY of my 15-20 year old college texts, and I still find many of them valuable references. It really freaks me out that so many students don't regard the knowledge, culture, and etc in those books as part of a lifetime investment in their education rather than as a cost that is relevant for one semester of their lives only. Do you complain about the cost of college? OK, hell, I complain about the cost of college-- I mean, no one wants to pay more than you have to-- but if you've made the decision to go to college you surely understand that the cost of tuition and etc is an investment in your future that will presumably (hopefully) reap benefits throughout your professional life. Why regard textbooks any differently? They are an integral part of the learning experience that one goes to college for.

As a professor, I could teach classes without using texts, but doing so would lower the quality of my classes to an unacceptable level. Should I undermine my educational mission-- and my students' likelihood of getting good value for their long term investment in education-- in order to save them some bucks in the short term? I find that penny wise and pound foolish.

As for the notion of selling books back every semester, isn't the implicit message that one no longer needs that information? If that's the case, why not forget everything you learned as well? Why bother taking classes at all? Only a very few people are lucky enough to learn so well as to never need to refer to reference books after they've read them once-- those books will be a lifetime resource and are part of the education you paid for. I just don't get why anyone would simply dump them at the end of the semester.

[Rowdyboy]

9. Very interesting point...I had not considered the question in that light

before. I will say that 30 years after college the only textbooks I've consistently referred to are the anthologies of English literature and some of the history texts, and those only VERY rarely...

But a prospective lawyer starting to build his personal collection seems like a different matter. In 1974 my undergrad Constitutional Law text was 1300 pages of case law and I remember thinking at the time it was outrageously expensive at the time.

[tjdee]

10. Because college isn't cheap.

There were some books I loved as an undergrad, which I hated to sell back (at a fraction of the cost)--but I needed the money. I actually wrote some titles down and have re-bought at least one of them after school.

$600 for books is yet another way to discourage the poor from a college education, IMO.

It's all well and good to say that they're part of an investment in your education... but the reality is that a number of professions rely less on what you learned in class and more on what you learn in the field. I know a number of successful people who haven't looked at their textbooks once since graduation. ESPECIALLY if those books were for general education courses.

Why can't students rent the books, or something?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

12. A lot of times you can check them out of a library.

The university's library will usually have at least one copy. The problem with this is that you have to share the book with everyone else at the school. These class set books were not allowed to be taken out of the library at my school. It might work differently else where.

[MountainLaurel]

20. No, no, no

Very, very few college libraries can afford to buy textbooks; they simply change too fast and are too expensive. (I work in collection development at a community college library.) Plus, different professors use different texts. If a library has a copy, it's an instructor copy or freebie and it's on closed reserve so that students have to use it in the library.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

21. I went to a large state university.

Most classes kept at least one book on file at the library. Right, students only used it at the library at my school too.

[fujiyama]

13. That's really smug

to believe that those of us complaining about the cost of textbooks are doing so because we don't value knowledge.

Most of us do so because the costs are simply outrageous. The prices are ridiculous and it's really a matter of huge publishing corporations as well as college bookstores (a majority controlled by Barnes and Nobles at this point) having found a way to fleece American college students.

Look at the prices of the SAME EXACT textbook in Asian countries. At least they offer them a softcover. Hell, even European countries offer the same for much less.

I'd say it's the government that has little value for education and knowledge, considering the high costs of college. As the other poster said, this discourages the poor (who disproportionately are minorities) from having access to an education.

[Pithlet]

14. Well said.

Especially the last paragraph.

[fujiyama]

17. Thank You

It's absolutely frustrating how expensive the books are at in the bookstore. You can find the EXACT same textbooks on the internet (often it's from India) for about a quarter of the price. I've stopped buying books from my college bookstore.

In Europe, the higher education is also much more subsidized.

[mike_c]

19. while that might be true, I must say that it didn't discourage me...

...and I'll be paying off my education debts for the rest of my working life. I'm sorry if you find my attitude smug, but I did indeed mortgage my future in order to pursue an education, and I know what's it's like to be poor. My blue collar and no collar roots go way back. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why I feel that education-- and the instruments of education, like books-- are priceless and precious. Yes, I'd like to see college texts subsidized or at least sold for less-- hell I'd like to see them given away-- but I'll be utterly honest-- I'd have done damn nearly anything to buy books, and that need finds it difficult to reconcile tossing them at the end of the semester, smugness notwithstanding.

on edit: by all means, buy books on line from less expensive sources-- that's what I recommend to my students.

[mike_c]

23. now I really will rant....

I'd say it's the government that has little value for education and knowledge, considering the high costs of college. As the other poster said, this discourages the poor (who disproportionately are minorities) from having access to an education.

Look, I'm the first person to rail against the inequities and class divisions that make it difficult for poor people to get an education-- I am the only person in my family to have completed college, let alone an advanced degree, and I'll spend the rest of my life in debt for it. But your comment about government not valuing education is only partly correct, and the part that's incorrect exposes your lack of understanding of many of the real reasons why education is prohibitively expensive for many Americans.

At my university, the last time I checked (admittedly a few years ago), student tuition costs and fees paid for less than 20 percent of the cost of attendance. That's right, less than one-fifth. The other four-fifths were paid by state and federal governments, i.e. by taxpayers. Now it's true that the state legislature and the federal government are forever trying to squeeze us further than we can reasonably be squeezed, because they have to answer to their constituents, and they are the folks who undervalue education, if anyone does. But to suggest that the government doesn't value education when it pays more than 80 percent of the cost of attendance at a state university betrays at least some ignorance of how much they do indeed value an educated society, or at least an educated work force. (on edit: This does not include most financial aid, which goes toward defraying the 20 percent that students pay, making their slice of the education cost even less, at least in the case of grants.)

This debate needs to go a lot deeper than this, and this thread is not the place to do it, so I'll end this rant now.

[fujiyama]

32. I really don't think

this administration values education very much and it's telling that they've cut Pell grants and other resources while they spend billions on defense. Hell even a lot of that defense work is outsourced now.

That said, I think there is also a great misappropriation of resources as well, especially considering that the presidents of most universities (private and public) are doing extremely well for themselves.

I do think that blaming the government is a little simplistic though and think that education is undervalued by society in general.

As for textbooks, I tend to keep mine. The first semester at school, I ended up doing the "buy back" thing. I wish I had kept them. Since then I've kept just about every book.

[mike_c]

35. ahh now, "this administration" is another matter altogether....

I believe they value education only in the sense that they value anything else: for its utility as a tool for maintaining their power and control. However, public universities are run by the states, and ultimately state legislatures are held in a kind of tense limbo by constituents who alternately do not respect the price tag associated with running a world class university system but who demand the benefits of such a system for their own children. That tension is both what keeps us (universities) afloat and yet constantly under threat of further budget reductions. Nonetheless, "this administration's" distaste for education is not really responsible for any aspect of the high cost of education, at least not yet. Arguably, the federal government's responsibility is really limited to their refusal to further subsidize education for all citizens. Short of federalizing state universities, the feds can do little else to either help or hurt, IMO.

The administration can attack federal entitlement grants for education, but ultimately Congress will be pulled up by the same short hairs as state legislators when their constituents' kids begin to lose access to college. Note too that those grants will never pay any of the majority of the costs of attending a public university, which are paid by state government, although they certainly do defray the portion paid by students. I know, poor people and minorities have always suffered lack of access, but that is as much because of their lack of political power as anything else. Until politicians view them as important constituencies, they will continue to be marginalized in education except to the degree that "equal access" can be legislatively mandated.

[benny05]

36. Professional school textbooks are not cheap

Professional schools are expensive, and so are textbooks. But I've seen many students who shelled out a couple of hundred bucks for a rock concert they wanted to see, or spent $500 (or more) to go to some place in the Caribbean for spring break. Then they whine about how expensive textbooks are, not knowing that the university also provides thousands of dollars (some in the million category) for databases (such as Westlaw and LexisNexis) that are the tools for the students that will be used in everyday practice when they get out.

I'd like to work at your university if the state pays 80% of the cost of attendence at a state school. Most states today only pay roughly 25% or less, depending where you attend; the rest is financial aid, including loans, pell grants, scholarships, etc. I agree that there is an attack on higher education in general. States used to provide 70% of education funds out of their budgets, but with cost cutting, they are passing on the cost to the consumer. Higher education is no longer considered a greater good, it's now a "personal" good. There aren't many scholarships for graduate or professional education unless you are a minority. You have to figure that you will benefit in the long term, not just recouping in the short term.

[mike_c]

37. add it up and I think you'd be surprised....

At least at my Cal State University, the state allotment per student per semester is more than three times the actual per semester tuition cost (admittedly one of the best deals in the nation, IMO), and that is only for the direct costs of instruction, mostly faculty salaries and departmental operating expenses. The administrative budget and physical plant costs are paid separately, again out of the state budget. That's a LOT more money than students pay for tuition.

[kitkatrose]

16. Well as to selling books,

as poster above pointed out, some people need the money. Fortunately, I'm not in that position since I have a good scholarship and book voucher. I don't sell books back that I like (my science texts and such), but other ones, like my calculus book, I probably should have burned for the trouble that class caused me (j/k. I love books.) But some new editions are simply the same as the old ones with prettier covers--as told to me by my chemistry teacher and on the experiences of a classmate. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but still there.

I'm not sure why you think that selling back the books equals not needing the information. It's still readily available in a library or even the net after you sort through the bs. And it's easier to go check it out of a library, than to have it take up space in my little apartment. I should know, as I am a pack rat and am staring at my text books on the floor by my bed, next to my door, and on a small bookshelf crammed with other books I find far more interesting and valuable than my Algebra and Trigonometry book.

[mike_c]

22. my college calculus text is 20 years old, but I looked something...

...up in it a couple of months ago. Sure, I could have walked over to the library and likely found the same book, or certainly the same information. I could have found it online if I had framed a proper query. But you know, there is something damned satisfying about having the text right at hand on my shelf, next to my desk. I often go for years without consulting it, and have other books that I have not looked at since college other than to dust them off occasionally, or to move them around the country, but on the occasions that I need a bit of information that I've forgotten-- or never peoperly learned-- I'm really thankful I have those books.

Over winter break my daughter's boyfriend, who's working on his second masters degree, was browsing through my shelves and asked to borrow my college pre-calc text, which is even older-- I suspect it's older than him-- but he liked the style better than the modern treatments he was experienced with. I gave it to him. That book served me for years, and now it continues to help educate someone else. Had it not been in someone's personal collection it would likely have been destroyed years ago.

[smbolisnch]

18. My books my 1st semester in Respiratory therapy cost $790.00.

I'm sorry, but that is obscene. I do not have my parent's credit card and I am the only person who is helping me. I value every penny I can pinch and the thought of spending that much on books is just sickening. I hardly think that makes me or any other college student just trying to survive and get through school the bad guy.

"don't regard the knowledge, culture, and etc"

[Heddi]

26. Thank you. Nursing student here too

and 1st quarter books were $800, then $100 for a stethoscope, $100 for scrubs, $50 for shoes, $20 for a name tag, $15 for a gait belt...really adds up.

Both my husband and I are full time students. We get supplemental financial aid, but we're not even able to pay our full tuition costs w/financial aid b/c state tuition has risen in the past 2 years but fin.aid hasn't.

I find it highly insulting that I OBVIOUSLY don't value education, knowledge, or culture because I'm unable to pay my tuition AND books AND supplies AND pay rent AND buy food AND and and and and.

And like you, no one is paying my way. I get finanical aid loans which I will have to pay back for many years of my life. The rest of my $$ comes from back-breaking and finger-numbing labour on the part of both my husband and I.

But it must be so comforting to live in such a black-n-white world where if you complain about X, then you don't care about Y.

I'm sure as a RT, you know what I mean about the speed in which medical books become obsolete. You and I absolutely CANNOT rely on a used textbook (There aren't even any used books sold at my school since you have to use all books throughout the 2 year program, and new editions come out every year or so). Medical knowledge advances so rapidly that we don't even have the OPTION of buying used (and therefore, more inexpensive) books.

But we're just ignorant fools who don't value an education. :eyes:

Smug.

[smbolisnch]

27. Exactly. I forgot to even add in the steth, lab coat, scrubs, etc.

Besides, if we didn't care about our education we wouldn't be working our asses off in school. :mad:

And good point about the books being obsolete. In 20 years, my pharmacology books will probably be looked at as amusing. Oh well, what do I know? :eyes:

[Heddi]

24. I'm going to school for nursing. I *CANNOT* buy used textbooks

because every year they produce a new edition since medical knowledge changes and advances so rapidly.

To suggest that I complain because I don't value education is just absurd. I have to buy $500-800 in BOOKS and another $200-400 in supplies EVERY QUARTER. I absolutely cannot sell my old books back since they're required for the whole program, and I have to buy new books/guides/etc every quarter for the new material that is taught.

School tuition has gone up 19% in the past 2 years in my state. Unfortunately, my financial aid rewards have not gone up with the tuition hike. THat means that my financial aid doesn't even pay all of my tuition...so I have to cover 1/3 of tuition plus all my books, all my supplies on my own.

I think your attitude towards actual people who are making HUGE sacrifices and spending many years in college is just deplorable. I complain because it's highway fucking robbery. There is no reason that a book with less than 200 pages should cost over $150. There is no reason that a supplemental black-and-white lab manual with 145 pages should cost $85.

And for many people like myself, who are going to school for medical related education, the majority of our books will be completely useless in 5 years or so. To suggest that I don't value education, or that I might as well not even both going to school at all because I find $2400 in books that will be completely obsolete in less than 10 years to be completely insulting to me and to my future profession.

You're a university professor, but you seem to have forgotten what it is like to be a college student, paying your own way, and trying to not only buy the books and supplies necessary for the classes you're taking but also keep a roof over your head and food in your stomach. Not very easy. Not very cost effective. And my saying that in no way diminishes the effort I put into my schooling and my desire to be the best I can in my field.

Hell---our teachers won't even let us USE non-current editions of text because they're useless. Completely useless and outdated.

[mike_c]

28. oh, I haven't forgotten, Heddi....

To this day I cannot buy a home, or a new car, and I still live more like a grad student than most folks with my middle-class salary because I'm so deeply in debt from school. If it were in my power I would make education a basic social benefit, free to all.

Please go back and read what I said. I did not say that people who complain about the cost of books do not value education. I said that it surprises me that folks don't regard the cost of books-- whether high or low-- as part of their long term investment in education, from which they should eventually realize dividends. I went without food to buy books.

[Pithlet]

11. I would love to get some of my textbooks back.

My ex threw them out. But, you're right. The cost of textbooks is price gouging, IMO. College is expensive enough as it is.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

15. I spent close to $600 dollars on books for the first semester

of my freshman year (undergrad) at a state school. That was about 8 years ago now. I don't really think that's too much to spend on books. Other semesters I spent less. Many of my books I was able to use for at least two semesters too. I used my calculus book for three semesters.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

25. 2 cents from a college student and college bookstore employee

The bookstore isn't making any more off of the books than any normal retail store makes off of their stuff. It's just a standard markup over what we get charged, and for stuff like bio/law/engineering texts, the publisher charges the STORE $100/book. They also have a tendency to send reps around to professors, encouraging them to order the same books they already have, but packaged with a CD, or a study guide, or a dictionary or something - just so the bookstore can't buy back any used texts from the students. If the profs actually used the supplemental materials this wouldn't be a problem, but I took a Spanish course last year where the text came packaged with a workbook, four CD's, and a dictionary, and the only thing we used was the workbook. Talk about a rip-off!

I'd also like to know what kind of strange deal has been made that keeps the cost of textbooks sky-high in the U.S., but allows the same book to be sold cheaply overseas. I know the international versions are illegal to sell here (yes, technically even through Amazon and other sites). I don't know why it's illegal, I just know my boss almost had a coronary when I accidentally bought one back for the store during buyback. He marked it out of the inventory and threw it out, telling me if we had let it onto the shelves by mistake and were caught selling it we could be shut down. WTF?

Anyway, all that being said, I still buy my books online. Paying my way through school is hard enough as it is.

(Edited to correct freeperish grammar.)

[Orangepeel]

31. Same reason Merck won't supply Canadian pharmacies selling to Americans nt

[WindRavenX]

29. My genetics text cost me 150$

x( x( x( x( :cry: :cry:

I got 20 bucks back for my 200$ organic chem text book last semester.
ARGH.

[fujiyama]

33. I have heard in surveys

that Bio books are the most expensive.

Sure enough I took a microbio class last sem and made the mistake of buying it from the school bookstore - costed me about $200!!!

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

30. I think the most I ever spent for my law school books was $450

And I always buy new - I want to mark up my own books in my own way rather than rely on what someone thought was important.

[NYC]

38. Textbooks were always expensive.

In some ways, it can't be helped. Smaller printing, limited life (may need updating the next year). They are horribly expensive.