Am I a bad Democrat?

[WillParkinson]

We're hiring for a 3rd shift Room Service position where I work. A young lady came to apply for the job. My boss asked my opinion. I asked what the lady looked like. He said she was petite, about the size of my friend Trish. I said that I did not think she should be hired for the 3rd shift job.

Why? Because we get many drunken ball players or businessmen in the hotel who are looking for women. If this young lady was hired she would be the only person working the shift (in Room Service) and no one would know where she was if an incident were to occur.

On the one hand I thought I was doing the right thing because I wouldn't want anyone put in that position. On the other hand I felt that I was being disrespectful to the woman because I didn't think she could handle herself if a man (or group of men) tried to take advantage of the situation of having her alone in the room with them.

Was I bad?

[soupkitchen]

1. Well, you did discriminate.

Why can't room service personal be given electronic devises to contact help if needed?

[WillParkinson]

5. Discriminate...

I would have no problems with the young lady working first or second shift as she would have coworkers around who would know her whereabouts. We have women who do work first and second shift. In fact, when I started at the hotel we didn't even allow woment to be RS servers. There was a woman who worked there before I did and she was not allowed to leave the kitchen. She could set orders but could not run them.

I honestly did feel bad about it. I think I would feel worse, though, if I ever got a call in the middle of the night saying, "We can't find...(servers name)."

We have pagers that we use for the Desk to contact us if we are needed. In certain parts of the building they don't function.

We also have police officers who come in for lunch (at 2 in the morning) who have to go running up the stairs when they get a call because the radio they have won't transmit from the basement of the building.

[soupkitchen]

13. You're saying because she's a small woman she can't defend herself

Maybe she knows karate
I understand your concern, but when you're refusing to give a person a job because you think the're to petite to handle it, you're on thin ethical ice.
I guarantee you that if the employee you refused to hire found out about the reasons you refused to hire her she could sue the hotel you work for.
If your concerns are valid, then change the work enviroment. Hire two people to accompany each other for third shift room service.
There's always a right way to do things.

[displacedtexan]

2. if you hired her...

you might be liable for 'creating a hostile work environment.' talk to your legal department.

[TXlib]

3. I would have informed her of the working conditions

and asked her how she'd handle them.

[WillParkinson]

14. Yours is the best point...

Yes, she should have been asked how she would handle the situation if it ever came up.

In the end it didn't matter as she took a different job shortly after she interviewed.

[kstewart33]

4. You did the right thing

Your action was not sexist. If your assumption about the nature of your guests are true, she would be at risk every night she works that job. A small woman, no matter how hard she fights, can not successfully fight down a strong athlete, or heaven help us, a group of drunk guys with one thing in mind.

There will be other safer jobs for her. If she were my daughter, I would thank you for speaking up.

[Faygo Kid]

6. Yes, you're bad

She wanted a job. If she was qualified, she should have gotten it. There are laws on the books to prevent the kinds of things you fear; you gave the knuckleheads a free pass. Your employer is responsible for assuring a safe environment. Given your logic, women would never have left the kitchen. Analogous to free speech - Police have said, we can't let the protesters march, because they might be in danger. Excuse me: the police's JOB is to assure the safety of the marchers. You need to seriously rethink.

[WillParkinson]

10. Laws on the books...

Yes, they always work so well. I'm sure the drunk in the room will consider that.

As I said, if she is qualified I would have no problem with her working 1st or 2nd shift where she will have people who work with her that will notice if she's gone for too long and will know where she is. On 3rd shift there will be no one to know if she's missing until guests start saying they can't get anyone in Room Service.

[VelmaD]

11. Yeah...there are laws on the books...

about not discriminating based on gender and we see how well those worked for her too.

[WillParkinson]

15. Velma...

We did NOT discriminate against her. As I said before we would have offered her a job on 1st or 2nd if she was qualified (and again, she took a different job after she was interviewed). Third shift, though, is a different matter.

As one person said, we could have asked her how she'd handle the situation if something were to come up.

If another woman ever applies for the job I'll take that suggestion to heart.

[VelmaD]

23. Still have to disagree...

if she was qualified for the job and you did not hire her (the shift doesn't matter) just because she was a woman then you discriminated.

If she wasn't qualified that's one thing, but you never stated that she wasn't. Only that she was small. And that you were concerned for her safety. Well, as a grown woman she should have been consulted and allowed to make that decision for herself. Instead you made the decision for her, you decided you knew what was best for her. That's what I consider to have been patronizing.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one because I don't think you're going to change your mine. You've got something invested since you made the decision and want to feel like you did the right thing.

[WillParkinson]

27. My decision...

Am I the only one who read the post?

I OFFERED AN OPINION.

I DID NOT HAVE THE OPTION OF HIRING HER.

I was only asking for thoughts on my OPINION.

[VelmaD]

28. OK, I'm sorry...

I responded to this post before reading farther down to respond to subsequent posts. It wasn't your decision. Got it.

But you did ask our opinion on your advice.

This is all making everyone too defensive and I don't think I have anything more to say on the topic so I'm gonna do my part to calm things down and back away now.

[WillParkinson]

32. Yes, I did...

And I am VERY glad that people offered it. Honest.

I never would have thought to ask the potential candidate (male or female) how they would handle a situation if it ever came up.

In fact, if we ever do hire a candidate I'm going to ask that question regardless if it's male or female. Because I know that it does happen to the guys, too.

[VelmaD]

35. Ok, I was wrong...

I do have one more thing to add. I'm glad this whole conversation made you think. How they would handle the situation is a good question to askk ALL applicants regardless of gender or size or whatever.

The other thing you might want to recommend to your boss is traiing for your staff on how to deal with that kind of situation. You might also want to do some research and get some staff input and do some serious brainstorming on ways to minimze that risk and provide better security for the night-time staff. If sounds like an incident just waiting to happen and y'all should do everything you can to nip it in the bud...both for the safety of your employees adn to forestall any charges that you knew and did nothing if someone ever gets hurt and sues.

[WillParkinson]

36. A good and very valid point!

Thank you for bringing it up.

[VelmaD]

40. You're welcome.

I'm an internal auditor so it's actually my job to think about risks like that. (Hell, that's the closest I've come to doing my job today. :-))

[WillParkinson]

41. HAHAHAHA...

Thanks. That was a good laugh. I needed that today after the whole dentist thing. :-)

[Faygo Kid]

20. Glad you're her protector

Look, I don't question your motives. But the legal responsibility rests with the employer to provide a safe working environment. You don't want to do that, and instead throw the onus on the employee, fine - but you will lose. Again, you are giving a free pass to illegal behavior, and punishing the (potential) victim. You are setting yourself up for liability either on the basis of discrimination (for failing to hire her because she is a "frail woman") or failing to provide a safe environment. If you don't like input, why did you ask for it in the first place?

[WillParkinson]

29. Why did I ask?

Because I thought that, just maybe, someone would give me some thoughts that I hadn't come up with on my own. And they did.

Who said I didn't want input? I do. But I like it better when people understand the post instead of assuming that *I* did not hire the woman.

[Faygo Kid]

31. My apologies, then

Perhaps I was harsh, for which I apologize, but there are some good points on this thread. Actually, thanks for starting it - good (and important) to look at issues like this.

[WillParkinson]

33. No apologies needed!

I love my friends at DU.

I'm very grateful for all of them.

They help me see things from angles that I might not have seen before.

And for that I say, "THANK YOU!"

[trof]

7. Yes. Go to your room.

;-)
No, of course not. I think you did her a favor.

[VelmaD]

8. Sorry...but yes

You were a little patronizing by assuming that a small woman cannot take care of herself. You made a decision that affects her life and livelihood without consulting her at all. Individual decisions like this add up to keep women as a group down.

Ask yourself this questions. Would you have asked the same question at all if the applicant had been a man?

Thing is, if she knew why she wasn't hired, she could sue your company and she might just win.

[WillParkinson]

12. If the applicant was a man...

A slight man? Yes. I would. I've already walked into a room where a guy whipped his dick out at me. I've been offered money to watch 2 guys have sex. Just 2 weeks ago I was asked to join a couple in a 3-way.

I never assume a woman cannot take care of herself. I know women who'd whip my ass in nothing flat. But I also know the behavior of drunk men who don't take no for an answer. Especially the ballplayer type who figure they're doing women a favor or who figure that since they are famous they've earned it.

We have already had one rape in the hotel that I know of. I wouldn't want a co-worker or a friend to be the next one. Male or Female.

[VermontDem2004]

9. I agree with the combination

of post #3 and #6. So there you know where I stand.

add: Here is why it is wrong, you didn't hire her because she was a small figured woman, (or the size of Trish) if that isn't discrimination I don't know what is? YOu talk about Drunk Ballers but you don't know how she could of handled the situation or whatever, that isn't the point. You denied her the opportunity to work not based on qualifacations, unless qualifacations require you to be a 6 foot 3 250 pound man? :shrug:

[JitterbugPerfume]

17. you were right

in not putting that young woman in danger

[VermontDem2004]

21. How?

He denied the young woman a job because he stated in his post she was a young woman, maybe the young woman knows marshall arts or took self defense classes, that's not the point.

[WillParkinson]

24. NO NO NO...

I did NOT deny the woman a job.

I don't hire or fire people. I was only asked my opinion.

My boss would have made the final decision and I have no idea what that would have been.

[VermontDem2004]

26. See post #25

[WillParkinson]

19. Once more, with feeling...

Had she not taken the job elsewhere and my boss decided to hire her I can't say for sure if he would have offered her the job on 3rd shift. I do know, however, that if he was going to hire her he would have at least offered her a job on 1st or 2nd.

I only offered my opinion of the situation to my boss. I have no say in hiring or firing.

[VermontDem2004]

25. Whether you do or not is not my problem, this is

My boss asked my opinion. I asked what the lady looked like.Why does it matter what she looks like? He said she was petite, about the size of my friend Trish. I said that I did not think she should be hired for the 3rd shift job.You said that you do not think she could handle the job because she was petite and the size of your friend Trish, that is discriminating on your part, maybe not the company's part but it was on your part even though you don't make hiring decisions.

[WillParkinson]

34. What does it matter?

Because I've dealt with ballplayers and drunken businessmen for too long. Quite often they want to know where they can get women. It's not usually guys but themselves, either. Usually it's a small group of them.

It's not the job that I don't think she could handle. Heck, if I can do it almost anyone can.

I just wouldn't feel comfortable having her in a room with a group of guys who wouldn't take no for an answer.

However, one of the other replies has shown me what I should have asked. How would you handle a situation like this if it ever came up? Now that I have that question I feel much more prepared if we ever find someone to fill the position.

[VermontDem2004]

37. It does matter

because your boss asked for your opinion and then you asked what did she look like? :wtf: I wouldn't of gave your boss an opinion unless I interviewed her, from your original post it doesn't seem like you did.

[WillParkinson]

39. No, I did not.

We've had some very slight people working in Room Service. I never felt like it was a problem until we were hiring for the 3rd shift. I admit that I was very uncomfortable with the thought of a young lady being alone in a room with a bunch of drunk guys.

I truly wish I had known the question, "How would you handle this situation" before I was asked for my opinion.

[VermontDem2004]

42. Well is that different

then having a young man in a room with a bunch of drunk guys? Why would he handle the situation better then a young woman? I get tired of this thought that woman can not handle certain situations because they are woman.

[WillParkinson]

43. A young woman vs a man...

As I said in another part of the post, I would feel the same if it was a slight man.

And, as I agreed to before: I now know enough to ask (male or female) how would you handle this situation BEFORE I offer an opinion.

[VelmaD]

44. Just make sure...

that you ask ALL prospective employees regardless of size. There's no guarantee that a 6'4" guy would be able to handle the situation in a good way either. (My brother is 6'4" and you wouldn't want to put him in that situation...there would definintely be a fight.)

[WillParkinson]

45. Actually, you guys helped me in a different way, too!

What if the person interviewed was INTERESTED in what was being asked? If a man or woman was interested in the person asking.

It's always been easy for me to say no when a guest asked for sexual favors. However, if a good looking man or woman were to ask the employee would he/she know enough to say, "Thank you but no"?

Some of the guys that I work with say, "Oh, I wish it had been ME that saw the naked woman or was asked to join a 3-way."

If they were asked how would THEY handle it?

[LanternWaste]

16. Concern does not equal discrimination...

Genuine and sincere concern for another person's well-being is not being discriminatory. That's my opnion, and I'm stickin' to it :)

[Faygo Kid]

30. That's the excuse about blacks

Every minority in this nation has heard that excuse - "genuine concern" for their well being for not taking action, whether it was a black teenager in Little Rock in the '50s trying to go to school, or a woman in the '60s trying to gain respect as an attorney or other professional. Methinks we should attack the other side; why does the potential victim have to bear all the brunt of this "concern," while the discriminatory parties get a pass? Haven't we been at this for at least 50 years?

[LanternWaste]

38. Intent determines discrimination v. concern in this case

If he's genuinely concerned and not using concern as a cover for a pre-existing agenda as is so often done, I think it's a perfectly valid response.

Am I sexist because I don't want my girlfriend driving around in my neighborhood alone after dark or am I concerend?

Please don't paint me with that brush. Thanks :0

[manderley]

18. Yes, you were. Why not inform her of the situation and let her decide

What if this had been a short, slight man. Drunken men are drunken men . Who's to say they won't take advantage of a guy. I see your reasoning but I still think the choice to hire her should not have been based on this. I may be biased though being that I'm just under 5 feet and really sensitive about it.

[WillParkinson]

22. See #12...

For my answer about a slight man.

The choice to hire her or not hire her was not mine to make. I was asked my opinion and I gave it.

I'm glad that I asked the question here. Everyone has given me something to think about.

The next time I'm asked I will definitely say, "Let's ask how they'd handle the situation."

[damnraddem]

46. Here's the problem -- you didn't give her a chance.

You could have asked that the issue be explained to her in the event that she might be hired -- would she want to work under those conditions. She may have had prior experience and felt the ability to handle any such pressure, or danger. Or she might have decided to chance it, despite concerns. Or she might have decided that the job wasn't for her. Whatever she decided, she would have made the decision about what she could and/or was willing to handle. And she would also have been warned about a possible hazard of the job before being hired. What if the hotel now hires someone who is larger and stronger, she is not warned of the risks, and something happens to her? 'We thought she could take care of herself' would not be much of a defense should she take the hotel to court for not warning her of the risks of the job. Neither is 'we didn't think she could take care of herself but didn't ask her' much of a defense against allegations of discrimination.