Is this the last NHL season?

[underpants]

I am not a fan of ice hockey at all so dont' think this is meant with any animosity. I'm doing this from memory so if it is a bit off excuse me.

Yesterday on ESPN's The Sports Reporters John Saunders pointed out same startling numbers about the NHL. He lead off with the fact that there is no salary cap in the NHL and that the players are dead set against it which is understandable. He then pointed out that the NFL TV contract produces about $2 Billion in revenue for the league and the owners but the NHL TV contract is only for about $141 Million. NFL players make about half what NHL players make and Hockey players have careers that average almost three times longer than NFL players.

The NHL owners and the league have lost about $500 Million dollars the last few years.

With the huge popularity of the NHL, even "under palm tress", this is quite surprising.

Is the NHL being mismanaged?
Should the players relent to some sort of cap? I'm all for unions myself but if this union is endangering their own members' livelihoods perhaps they should rethink it.
Did they expand too much or too quickly?

I interested in what you hockey fans have to say. This was shocking to me.

[Scottie72]

1. For the survival of Hockey

the NHL definitely needs some sort of salary cap.

Small market teams just cannot survive with out it. I haven't been an avid follower of hockey the last few seasons, but when I look at all the new teams and realize how many teams have moved it just amazes me.

[youngred]

2. A strike next year would kill hockey and the NHL

and I sincerely hope that it doesn't come to that.

Some sort of cap needs to be put in place. The richer markets are putting out huuuuge salaries (are you sure they're more than football?) to attract talented vetrans (and yes this include my beloved Wings). Meanwhile Classic Franchises like the Penguins and many of the Canadian teams are suffering heavily. A salary cap would make it easier on Canadian Teams which have to pay more to their players than American teams. I think they did expand too much too quickly. There ought to have been a team in Minnesota, and I'm all for the league expanding southward, but the league can't support that many teams that fast. I don't think the talent's diluted but there are too many teams.

As for TV contracts, that's a mite unfair to compare it to the NFL which is the largest (i believe) Sports TV market and includes the highest rated TV event of the year (the super bowl). A more accurate comparison would be baasketball which has roughly the same number of games and teams.

[underpants]

3. I am sure the salary thing was per player

53 on a NFL roster and what 15 ? in the NHL???

Yeah the basketball comparison might be better but I don't have thos enumbers.

[youngred]

10. 22 on an NHL roster

and I realize you got the numbers from saunders. the nhl is in trouble under bettman but its not terminal (I hope!)

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

4. NHL is over-rated

"Sorry to say this, I don't think the NHL has been that good from the get-go. I think what we've had here is a little social concern about the NHL. The media has been very desirous that a white sport do well, white coaches and white goalies doing well."

Sorry. It had to be done.

Hockey is a minor sport in a country where nearly half the continent doesn't get cold enough to participate in outdoor winter sports. The attempts to "market" hockey to an indifferent audience were doomed to failure from the start.

Remember that the southern states are gaining population faster than the northern states, and the largest growing segment of the total U.S. population is hispanic. Not a lot of ice hockey being played in Guatemala.

[yolatengo]

5. they WOULD...

If Harrison Ford took his family down there and made ice for them...

c.f. The Mosquito Coast (1986)

Bigby

[underpants]

7. "ICE IS CIVILIZATION!!"

:bounce:

[JackDragna]

6. I think hockey is fine..

..it's a great sport and I enjoy watching it. People don't play it in fricking Guatemala because it's hot there and because you actually have to able to afford to build something more complex than a tool shed. Hockey is in trouble not because it's unpopular, but because it's suffering from the same ills of major league baseball: dominance by big spenders and over-expansion.

[HEyHEY]

18. reminds me

"The media has been very desirous that a white sport do well, white coaches and white goalies doing well"

Years ago when all us Canuck folk were getting pissed about all the expansion in the Southern US, my buddy said "They're giving them what they want, white people playing sports"

I laughed

[MissMillie]

8. Football players SHOULD make less

they play about 1/4 of the games as the NHL players do.

I enjoy hockey more than any other professional sport. I used to never miss a Bruins game. Since the Bruins are hell-bent on trading away their top scorer every year, and now signing a middle-aged goal-tender, I can't find it in my heart to continue to support them. They don't seem to want to bring a cup to Boston. Poor Ray Bourque had to settle for a different Jersey to be able to hoist the cup over his head. MacLaren put it best when he said that it wasn't worth a player's energy to play for a team that wasn't going to put it's all into bringing home a cup.

I also think that part of the deal w/ the NHL not being very popular is that not as many kids get into it as other sports (Little League, soccer, Pop Warner, etc) because it's so expensive. Kids that don't play don't watch, for the most part.

[underpants]

14. Ah but what is the demand for those 16 games?

They can't play everyday anyway, which actually provides the run-up and anticipation of each weekend.

I have only been to one NFL game and it was free so I have no Idea what the tickets actually cost. I think they are about fo rthe cheapest. Season tickets can go for as low as $1,500 plus a seat licensing fee of about $1,000 ( a great invention for the owners). Must of the league money now comes from TV and merchandise (which used to go to charities but not completely anymore).

[Forkboy]

24. The real deal on McClaren leaving Boston

this from my sister who has some very inside knowledge of the Bruins inner working..i.e.-this came from Jacob's son.

McClaren got married,but the problem was he knocked up another woman at the same time.Some teammates were razzing him too much for his taste and he demanded a trade.

[GOPisEvil]

9. The NFL/NHL comparisons are for % of revenue dedicated to salary.

Consider: the NFL has 32 teams with 53 roster spots and ~ 65% of revenue dedicated to salary. The NHL has ~ 25 roster spots and 30 teams and dedicates well over 70% of revenues to salary.

The NHL will not survive long term until it brings their % of revenue dedicated to salary down. Consider also that their next TV contract will be smaller than present.

:scared: for hockey fans.

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. hockey has been dying a slow death

Since they took fighting out of it.

Really, that and since the Rangers won the Stanley Cup. Damned Rangers, cursed the whole sport, they did.

Every sport should have a hard salary cap. But in tune with that, there should also be a ticket-price cap for fans.

[youngred]

12. The Americanized version perhaps

the glory of the European and Canadian game has always been offense. The Americans (esp East coast thugs such as the Flyers, Rangers and Leafs) have steadily turned it more and more violent. I'm glad they got rid of the fighting, its unecessary and stupid

[Forkboy]

25. That haven't gotten rid of it

I don't mind the fighting myself (I'll explain in a sec) but the league has cracked down on it quite a bit.If you only see hockey highlights on ESPN you'd think that's all there was to a hockey game.The stats for the 2001-2002 season showed the there was 1 fight per every six games played.ESPN and other sports news tend to glorify the fights,which I do have a problem with.While I don't mind the fighting I could live without it as well.

The reason I don't mind fighting is that without there would be an increase in dirty stickwork and cheap shots (and there's enough already).The European leagues have a lot of stickwork thats dirty.Knowing that if you take a cheap shot at someone you might have to put up the dukes with a Chris Simon or a Peter Worrell keeps A LOT of players honest.Gretzky has come out against fighting,but you notice he did so after he retired and not when Marty McSorley was covering his backside?

The junior Canadian leagues are the toughest on the planet.You simply wont come out of the Quebec Junior league without doing a lot of fighting.While I agree that the teams you mention are thug-like (especially the Leafs who are by far the dirtiest team in the league,and will be even more so with Marchment joining the club)it's hardly confined to American hockey.Go see a (Canadian)Western Hockey League game if you don't believe me :)

[youngred]

29. True

and I more meant the thuggery than actual fighting. You are very right with the rest of what you say.

:cheers:

[youngred]

Triple posting eeek!

[youngred]

13. The Americanized version perhaps

the glory of the European and Canadian game has always been offense. The Americans (esp East coast thugs such as the Flyers, Rangers and Leafs) have steadily turned it more and more violent. I'm glad they got rid of the fighting, its unecessary and stupid

[Braden]

15. I hope you're wrong but it doesn't look good.

Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne signing in Colorado on a 2-1 deal gave me all the evidence I need to see that the players are certain a strike is coming. Those two want one try at the cup and don't need the money.

I for one hope that if they strike this time they get it all out. Salary cap or luxury tax system that is equitable.

get rid of franchises that are marginal now. Focus on the Core Hockey Markets and remaining Major Markets.

[HEyHEY]

17. bang on

[HEyHEY]

16. Here's the problem with salaries

You have a bunch of Canadians from small towns where they are treated like gods. They get an ego, move to the Southern US and demand crazy money because they still think they are gods...without realizing no-one down there cares that much about hockey. So the temas can't pay up.


Mismanaged? YEs Gary Bettman is fucking knob who has ruined hockey.

[Braden]

21. bettman has done less for hockey than most think.

Bettman has done so little to benefit hockey.

He made is bigger, and brought more money into the game (via $75mm franchise fees) which deep pocketed owners have used to significantly bump salaries for mostly offensive stars. But those franchise fees wont continue to roll in. Balcony seats at Fleet Center are now $65. Friggen Balcony.

[tom_paine]

19. "As a lifelong hockey fan..."

Actually, I WAS a lifelong hockey fan. Low scoring and the boring trap found me 12 rows from the ice one night PRAYING for the game to end so I could go home.

It was at that moment that I felt my love of ice hockey wane. It has never come back.

I have a mild interest and occasionally I glance at the scores, but I always think that if my interest could be beaten down and turned off by the endless trapping 1-0 and 2-1 scores, then I am very likely not alone.

Now after 2 or 3 years of being hockey-less, I can't imagine anything brining me back.

[HEyHEY]

20. yeah exactly

When the hell are franchises gonna learn that wins don't mean anything...excitment does...New JErsey and Ottawa are both good teams but they can't even fill the stands cause the games are so boring...Edmonton didn't even make the playoffs...and they are packed every night

[tom_paine]

23. The gigantic crease and the goalie inviolability

combined with the advances in the goalie armor and pads, I think, hve combined to make goalies both fearless and with almost 100% concentration at every moment.

So it just wasn't the trap.

[Forkboy]

27. The biggest difference I see between hockey now and hockey then

is the quality of the goaltending.As you say they are fearless,and play like it.I remember in the 70's when there was maybe 4 real good goalies in the league (Dryden,Cheevers,Tony Esposito,Billy Smith).Now it seems as if every team in the league has a real solid goalie,sometimes two!

[Forkboy]

26. I'm a big Devils fan

and I agree.But until someone finds a way to beat them I dont see a reason for them to change.

Edmonton is easily the most exciting team in hockey.It's almost not fair to compare other teams to them.The Bruins are like watching a bunch of grannies play after seeing an Oilers game.

[SmileyBoy]

22. This gives Winnipeg the opportunity to get the Jets back.

See http://www.jetsowner.com for more details about it. It's a rapidly growing grass-roots movement to get NHL hockey back to Winnipeg.

[Forkboy]

28. BRING BACK THE JETS!!!

:)

[Robb]

30. The solution is very simple:

First, we take the Wings off to a desert island and leave them there.... :evilgrin:

Seriously, this is all very interesting to me. I had no idea; I was just glad when that damn magic blue puck exhaust thingy went away.

[underpants]

31. Ah yes the blue puck

Like I said I'm not a hockey fan at all but that was just stupid. Trails at a hockey game?

[youngred]

36. Glad ABC took the NHL from Faux

their coverage is unbearable

I'll ignore the wings comment before I get my post removed :P

[Forkboy]

38. Speaking of the Wings...

how do you feel about the whole CuJo/Hasak thing?

I like CuJo a lot more than Hasek,both in terms of actual ability and even more in terms of personality (Hesek is a fuckwad in person).Both can win them a Cup obviously,but carrying both will present some problems.

Of course I also think Detroit is getting too long in the tooth to win it all this year,but they'll still contend.

[youngred]

42. Hasek is a better clutch goalie

after getting the cup monkey of his back. In terms of personality and fan relations give me CuJo any day, but his propenisty for choking really makes me nervous. Hasek is either fantastic or horrible because he doesn't play a set style and flops all over the place. I'm from Western NY, and became very familiar with Hasek's asshole antics. With a solid defense in front of him to help like he's always had he is strong. Given the choice I'd say get rid of CuJo and keep Hasek, but I like CuJo more than Hasek.

I'm not worried about them being old, they have a very good group of young stars who can play with any team in the league. i'm mildly concerned about the loss of Federov and Robataille. Federov was always streaky and overrated, but when he was good he was great

[Forkboy]

45. Speaking of young stars

Datsuk is looking beter and better.he could be a real star,and might already be one if he wasn't playing behind so many Hall of Famers.

[youngred]

47. absolutely

which is why so many people thing the wings are "over the hill", all the old-time big names grab attention off the younger talented players.

[Forkboy]

48. aaaarrrggghhhh

ya got me there :D

[Robb]

40. Hey man,

If I can't live in Colorado and make fun of the Red Wings, I don't wanna live! :silly:

[youngred]

43. haha

you and ZenLefty. I like the avs, but when they play the wings there is no team I'd rather see in Hell ;-)

[ProfessorGAC]

32. I'll Go With Mismanagement

And yes, they expanded to broadly and too quickly.

I am no longer too much a fan of NHL hockey. Too much dump and rush, too much clutch and grab defense. Ice surface is too small in many places.

The players do need to consider themselves partners with the owners. I understand the natural adverserial relationship there, but one needs to be careful to avoid cutting off one's own nose to spite the face.

I also think some rules changes are in order for the NHL. They refuse to do anything about rough play and fighting, because the 10% of troglodyte fans who would leave the game if fighting were band, are holding the league hostage while 100 million American sports fans continuing to ignore the sport. Time for radical cures!
The Professor

[underpants]

33. Not a fan but Ican actually watch Olympic hockey

It seems to be a much more fluid game. I have never understood the fighting aspect of it. If I want to see a fight I will watch boxing, plus what does it tell us when we have to resolve every issue with our fists? Not to be a peacenik just I don't understand it, much like wrecks (=failure to perform) being a "highlight" of racing.......er excuse me RACIN'!

[zls44]

34. Step one

Tell my favorite team, the Rangers, to stop spending money.

[ProfessorGAC]

35. International And College Hockey, For Me

Prefer both to the NHL.

One of the canards of old school hockey fans, is that if you ban fighting, there will be more severe penalties for high sticking, spearing, slashing, and roughing.

However, in Euro hockey, and in college, where fighting is banned, and penalties for illegal rough play are more severe, they have ZERO fights, and they have less than 25% of the penalties for roughing, spearing, and slashing. So, so much for that theory. They have no fighting and the roughness penalties are 1/4th as great, not more!

The NHL needs to lose the 2 line pass rule, standardize on a bigger ice surface, and resize the goal so it's proportional to the time when goalies didn't have padding that added 50% to their width. And of course, make penalties for fighting and roughing about 30x of what they are now.
The Professor

[Forkboy]

41. sorry...it's not a canard

I watch a ton of college hockey,both on tv and in person,and the amount of high sticking that occurs is insane.The reason there's not as many calls is because the players wear helmets with cages so there's no blood drawn...no harm no foul as it were.Watch how many college players are careless with the stick when they hit the NHL.

European NHL players have been notorious over the years for theire stickwork,both the legal variety and otherwise,a lot of which is the sneaky variety,such as a stick poke behind the knee,etc. (which can destroy a knee and a career).

I think a lot of this talk about fighting is much ado about nothing.As I pointed out in another post the 2001-2002 season averaged 1 fight per every 6 games played.I haven't seen last years stats yet,and even though I suspect it was a little higher I doubt it was by much.Compared to the bench claering brawls of the 70's and early 80's fighting is nearly non-existant.

Now the clutch and grab stuff...that I love to see reduced greatly.It's the mark of less talented players trying to compete against the talented ones,and also illustrates the lack of depth in the talent pool in the NHL due to a too fast expansion of the league.This clutch and grab stuff is a much bigger problem than the fighting is in my mind.

As for the goalie equipment,the league has introduced new rules as too the size of it (no more Garth Snow giant shoulder pads supposedly,and the hight and width of goalie leg pads has been restricted,so we'll see what that does.

I think one canard that is true is that the NHL needs more goals to be exciting.The best games I've seen in my life have nearly all been low scoring battles (though one particular 6-6 tie between Boston and Edmonton years ago stands out).Good solid defensive hockey is a thing of beauty :)

[youngred]

37. Fighting = Lack of talent

Teams hire thugs to shut down and protect their offensive players. The thug-liners are there as protectors in cases of cheap hits, interfering with the goalies and that kind of stuff. ALso in long hard-fought series tensions build and long memories kick in. The fighting has decreased in Hockey (as far as I've seen) of late...with the exception of a Flyers v. Rangers game. They shouldn't be highlights and I wish they weren't.

OPEN UP THE ICE

[Forkboy]

39. two points

fighting is a part of the game that needs to stay...see my post above as to why.

It's much more than 10% of the fans who enjoy it.I've never seen anyone get up to get a beer or hotdog during a fight :shrug:

I dont mind the fighting as much as the sports news shows that attempt to glorify the fights in their highlights.If a game had 10 beautiful goals and one fight the highlight will be of the one fight :mad:

Second point-The ice surface is a standard size throughout the league now.No more Boston Garden or the Aud in Buffalo to favor defensive play.

The league is also doing more this year to limit goalie equipment size.

[Lady Freedom]

44. OH NO! NOT AGAIN WITH SOMETHING TO BE IGNORED OVER!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[Forkboy]

46. did you say something

I didn't notice over all this great hockey talk ;-)