Question for gay/lesbian DUers

[liberalhistorian]

I'm a heterosexual who's always strongly and firmly believed that people are born gay, that it is NOT a "choice." It's always amazed me that anyone could ever believe that people would deliberately "choose" a "lifestyle" (a RW code word if I ever heard one!) that would subject them to such hatred, bigotry, persecution, and harassment, let alone never being able to fully enjoy all of the social, legal, and economic rights afforded to non-gay citizens.

So, I love to ask these people the following: since it's a choice, why don't you "choose" to go "out with" a member of your own gender (and they always know what I mean by "go out with!"). Can't do it, can you? Can't get yourself interested, can you? That's because it ISN'T A CHOICE, IDJITS! They'll usually splutter and blather something about "rebelling against the culture or their families", or some such nonsense.

Now, I love and appreciate my fellow women, but I will never, ever be attracted to them or interested in them romantically or sexually, not at all. And the same is true with hetero (I won't say "straight" because that implies that there's something wrong, or "crooked" with being gay) men I've talked to about it, NOTHING would make them sexually/romantically interested in their fellow men.

I also like to ask them "when did you "choose" to be heterosexual? They can't come up with an answer because, once again, it ISN'T A CHOICE. They hate that question because they can't answer it and they know it's an extremely valid point.

So, my question is, how do you handle this kind of shit from people who insist it's a "choice" when they don't know shit from shinola? I've been arguing with a couple of family friends about this these last few days, they insist it's ultimately a "choice" and that there are "programs" to help gays be "normal" ("normal" according to whose definition, I ask them). Did you always know you were gay/lesbian and accept it, or did you fight against it for awhile?

[dsc]

1. I fought against it for quite sometime

I remember my high school health teacher discussed homosexuality being a phase in class. He had said that people out grew it when they turned 17. I literally circled my 17th birthday on a calender and was so disappointed that it didn't happen. But looking back on it I clearly was gay from a very early age.

[liberalhistorian]

2. I don't know how old you are

(I'm 40), but that appeared to be the standard line in school health classes for a long time. I remember being fed that nonsense myself. Given that I attended a private all-girls high school, there was a lot of uncomfortable squirming during the time we covered that topic. Fortunately, I don't think they're teaching that anymore in health classes, much to the dismay of the Wrong Wing, who don't seem to give a damn about the high suicide rate among gay teenagers.

[dsc]

3. 37

and yes suicide was considered an option. I just couldn't figure out what was wrong with me that I didn't become straight on time. Thankfully it is getting better in those classes.

[liberalhistorian]

4. I'm sorry you and all other gay

teenagers have to go through that, and sorry also that it's really only a little better than it was. I remember back in junior high and high school, being called a "lesbo" was the worst insult you could hurl at someone (especially at a girl's school!), and if you didn't have a date every weekend and didn't "get it on" every weekend, you got that thrown at you. I remember thinking what an insult that must have felt like to the girls who really WERE lesbians.

[ikojo]

19. My brother did commit suicide at 36 and it

was primarily due to his inability to accept himself as a gay male. He fought against being gay all his life and had intense self hatred.

When people say that being gay is a choice ask them this, "when did you choose to like the opposite gender?" They can't say because it's NOT a choice.

[dsc]

20. I am so sorry for your loss

The collasal waste of this is just so sad. All of us deserve better.

[liberalhistorian]

23. I'm so sorry to hear that,

what a horrible thing for you and your family to have to deal with. I remember when I was little, my parents talking one of their best friends out of killing himself because he couldn't take being gay anymore. This was in Ohio in the early 70's, so you can imagine what the poor guy had to deal with every single day and why suicide was tempting for him. My parents constantly kept him around after that and made sure he knew he had people who loved him no matter what and whom he could count on for emotional help and support.

Several years ago, a 15-year-old boy attending a private Catholic boy's school killed himself because he knew he was gay, his classmates knew it, and he just couldn't take it. The priests and nuns running the school were incredibly insensitive and cruel to his mother, even trying to prevent the boy from being buried in a Catholic cemetery with Catholic rites because of his double "sin" of homosexuality and suicide, to the point that they caused a backlash against them and the school and the church even among those who were no fans of gays.

I will never, ever forget the looks of pain on his mother and sister's faces, and the anger and anguish on his father's face (his parents were divorced and his father kept insisting to him that he was NOT gay, that it was just his mother's way of getting back at him for leaving and divorcing her. Guess he found out otherwise the hard way). The Catholic church in this area still hasn't totally lived it down. And this is the kind of shit gay teenagers have to deal with all the time.

[noshenanigans]

5. Well, I'm bi..

I have a boyfriend and I love him very much (wow, did I just say "love"?), but there have been many women that I have been very attracted to. I always knew I never "fit in" to a straight world- as in, "I'm a girl, I like boys". I fought against my like of women for a really long time, but I felt better about myself once I just went with what I felt instead of what I thought I was "suppossed" to think.

It's kind of strange now that I'm committed to one man- as in, I still am attracted to women, but I'm still attracted to men, too, so I put them all out of my mind.

[liberalhistorian]

6. I guess I hadn't thought of that,

those who are bi, but it's legitimate to include them as well. I knew several bisexual women in college, where they felt more comfortable about being themselves than they were at home or in high school. I imagine it did, indeed, feel better when you finally decided to be true to yourself and your feelings instead of what society demands that you feel.

[noshenanigans]

8. that's common...

the "bi until graduation" thing, that is- there are so many women that just "experiment" in college with women. Understandable, I don't get angry about it. I don't feel I'm more "real" than anyone, I just try to get along- frankly, I wish I could get my boy to be a little more adventurous, but he won't.

[Misunderestimator]

7. I always just say.... Fuck you.

as for the other questions... Yes, I struggled with it, but thankfully not for too many years. The realization that I was gay was one of those turning-point experiences where I came out the other side wondering what the hell I was thinking for all those years. When I finally felt "normal."

Normal for me is being gay.

[liberalhistorian]

9. See, that's what gets me about

people, thinking that their way, i.e., heterosexuality, is the ONLY "real, true" way and everyone else is a freak. That's why I won't use the word "straight" to describe someone who's hetero, because, as I said above, it implies that gays/lesbians are "crooked" or "abnormal."

What you were thinking all those years, btw, was what society demands you think of yourself in order to be treated normally and to have certain social, legal, and economic rights. At least you were able to realize that and finally be true to yourself.

[Misunderestimator]

11. True.... And I appreciate your not using the term "straight"...

I have the same problem with it. Yep... what I was thinking all those years was what society imposed on me... kept me confused until I was 19. And made me make a lot of mistakes searching for what seemed "right." I was lucky enough to realize myself before I was 20, and that only because I was in an environment that accepted it (a music conservatory) in college.

I feel a tremendous compassion for those who lived longer in such ignorance, without the freedom to discover their true identity.

[Floogeldy]

12. I like your attitude! ***

[donheld]

10. Some people you can reason with

those with open minds are worth discussing this with. There are some, however, who IMHO, whose minds are shut tight. Those i just tell to F* off.

[liberalhistorian]

14. What's sad about that is that,

in all likelihood, they happen to know and like gays/lesbians in their daily lives, they just don't know it. Of course, if they did, they'd probably say something like, "well, John/Mary is okay for being gay, but gays in general.........."; you know, like some people do with blacks or other minorities.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

13. "So, my question is,

how do you handle this kind of shit from people who insist it's a "choice" when they don't know shit from shinola?"

A: With increasing annoyance.

[liberalhistorian]

15. LOL!

That's as good a way as any other, and certainly understandable.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

16. I'm thinking of walking around with a hockey stick at all times,

but I'd hate to break a perfectly good hockey stick answering the "what's wrong with you?" question.

[terrya]

17. I would tell them my story.

That I realized I was "different" when I was in grade school...that I began developing attractions to my fellow boy students. That this occurred in the late 1960's in Decatur, Illinois...hardly "San Francisco by the cornfields". That even IF I was mature enough to make that kind of "choice" at that time in my life...I certainly wouldn't do it, with no information to help me deal with the reactions of my family and friends, not at that time and place. It would be the height of foolishness to "choose" something like that.

[tjwmason]

18. I don't think that it can be handled

It is a totally irrational belief based on no evidence what so ever.

Fortunately I haven't really come across anybody who holds it personally; I know many people with strongly conservative views on sex and sexuality but none who think that homosexuality is a choice.

[Dark]

21. It's not a choice, but I always say

'Listen. You CHOSE to be Christian, right? You weren't born that way, right?

So, because you CHOSE to be a christian, does that mean that you are entitled to less protection and freedom than an Atheist, or that an Athiest is entitled to less protection and freedom than you?

No? Then why do you say that a gay person should be less protected and free than a straight person?'

This is used when I can't get any other argument in.

[liberalhistorian]

22. That's an interesting analogy,

and argument that I hadn't thought of. What kind of response do you usually get from that? Knowing fundies, it's probably something like, "well, ours is a morally correct choice and the one God wants us to make, so therefore..........blahblahblah."

[Dark]

25. Usually, that is what they respond with. I just say one of two things,

depending on my mood:

1.) If I feel like arguing, I'll say "But would you still say that you should withold rights?" Either way they answer, I win. If they say yes, anyone to the left of Scalia will be startled and realize how insane these people are. If they say no, then it's easy to say "Well, then why do you think gays should be prosecuted for their 'choice'.

2.) If I'm just really pissed off, I'll say, "Well, it doesn't matter what you think. The Gay agenda is pressing ahead, and soon all your children will be pinko-commie-babykillers."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. It has long been my belief that

the types who jump up and down and scream "Sexual orientation is a CHOICE!" with such conviction are actually self-hating bisexuals who HAVE chosen to suppress the homoerotic side of their nature.

I have no proof, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I've noticed that when people are afraid but ashamed of being afraid, they get angry.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. Guess I go against the grain...I think everything in life is a choice

I believe I could CHOOSE to be with a man and most likely be miserable and I believe you could CHOOSE to be with a woman and be miserable and unfulfilled too.

I think the only places in life where there are no choices are dying and paying taxes although we do get SOME latitude in the WHEN of it.

I am not saying that CHOICE would be sincere or who I am...I just think there's a lot more choice than people care to admit.

I also urge great caution on the genetic argument since all hell will break loose the day some crack pot scientist claims they have isolated a "gay gene"

[liberalhistorian]

27. Well, that's true that

you can "choose" to be with someone you don't want to be with and be miserable. Gays and lesbians have done that since time began in order to please society and hide who they really are from even themselves.

But what I mean is that the DESIRE, and the sexual ORIENTATION, is not a choice. Sure, you can choose to ignore it, but that doesn't mean that's what you really feel or what you really want.

I share your caution on the "gay gene" discovery fear, I think that's a two-headed sword. I'm sure some crack pot RW nutball "scientist" will claim such a discovery, eventually, though, and people need to be prepared for the repercussions of that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Well no desire is a choice

I have a desire to wring people's necks at times..really...and my ORIENTATION in life was quite different from the end result. I did CHOOSE the freedom to be who I feel I am in spite of that.

And I think many people are in denial about their desires. I really think the curve of human sexuality follows that most people HAVE desires both ways and end up CHOOSING the ones they follow. The people who complain the loudest either way are the ones in denial about those desires.