Mantle or Mays? Who would you rather haveon your team? And why?

[maveric]

Poll question: Mantle or Mays? Who would you rather haveon your team? And why?

Both born the same year, came into the league the same year(1951), both played in NY and hit 500+ HRs.

The Mick was more popular in the day due to his color, IMO.

Mays was a multi-tool player who could hit for power, average, stole bases, and a superb outfielder to boot.

Mantle, 534 HRs, 1509 RBIs, .298 lifetime avg.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml

Mays,660 HRs, 1903 RBIs, .302 lifetime avg.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mayswi01.shtml

Mays took care of himself and had more quality years than Mick, so I'm taking Willie.

[John Q. Citizen]

1. Mays was a better player by far. Who played longer? N/t

[DelawareValleyDem]

2. Mays NT

[sir_captain]

4. What's your reasoning?

[John Q. Citizen]

14. Mays was known for a lot more than having a big bat. He was

fast, and he played with a lot of flair and style.

He was known for his bat, his base running, and his outstanding fielding.

I remember my little league coach warning us against "acting like Willie Mays" and intentionally making basket catches on fly balls.

Mantle was undoubtably proficient at base running and fielding, but was mostly known as one of the two long ball Yankee bats, along with Maris.

[sir_captain]

15. So you're basing your opinion on anecdotes?

Rather than on the statistical evidence?

This is no slight on Mays--everything you say about him is absolutely true. But this does not make him better than Mantle. And if you look at their comparative statistics, it's not difficult to argue that Mantle was the (slightly) superior player--due mostly to his markedly higher walk rate. To say that Mantle was simply a power hitter is not true.

[Magrittes Pipe]

17. Not to mention...

...Maris was only "one of the two long ball Yankee bats" for two seasons, really; and in both of those seasons, he only got pitched to because he was batting behind the Mick.

But remember, baseball lore is rife with things people think they know. That's why objective analysis doesn't always catch on as quickly as we'd like -- people have firmly held beliefs about baseball. And as much as I want to smack myself in the head sometimes when I'm talking to people, I wouldn't change that for the world -- after all, it's the passion that makes us love the game.

[maveric]

19. And Maris won the MVP the year before he hit 61.

A little recognized fact.

[Magrittes Pipe]

21. Further evidence of the BBWAA's ineptitude.

;)

[sir_captain]

22. It's all true...

and it's sad, because baseball lends itself so beautifully to objective analysis. But you're right--as long as people love the game, we don't have a whole lot to complain about!

[John Q. Citizen]

35. I watched both Mays and Mantle play on TV at the time and

to my mind art trumps stats. especially just offensive stats.

Also, longevity was a big virtue in those pre-free agent days; for fans, the team and the management.

Besides, the question was who would I rather have on my team, not who had the best offensive stats.

Nothing against Mantle, he was truely worshiped by Yankee fans and for good reason, but I gotta go with Mays based on the question asked.

[sir_captain]

3. Mantle

He had a significantly higher peak than Mays, and was the best player of the decade of the 1950s. Mantle had a *signficantly* higher career OPS, which is a much better indicator of offensive performance than pretty much any of the other basic metrics.

Don't get me wrong--Mays was a great, great player. It's just that Mantle was, in my opinion, the most talented player ever. He didn't ever achieve his full potential, but even at 80%, he has been, if anything, underrated.

[tcoursen]

5. They were both great

I voted for Mays, but they both are all time greats.

Mays kept himself clean and healthy and therefore was able to have a longer more productive career.

Mantle I believe had major knee problems before he ever even got to the majors. If I am rememberign correctly he had a very severe knee injury in a high school football game, almost to the point where they were gonna take off his leg. He played his whole career in pain. Throw in the drinking and it is amazing the guy did what he did do.

Of course you left Aaron off of your list, and he should be picked over both Mays and Mantle.

It really is a shame that guys like Mays and Aaron are having their records broken by the likes of Barry Bonds.

[sir_captain]

7. I love Hank, but both Mantle and Mays were better than he was

not to take anything away from him...

[gnofg]

12. Agreed

Mays was certainly better than Aaron. He was voted player of the decade in the sixties and missed at least two years to the service. He also was a superior fielder. If he had palyed anywhere else but San Fran he would have had 800 homers. Aaron had a longer career.

[Magrittes Pipe]

6. For one year, or for his career?

Mantle's peak value was higher. But he was fragile, and he injured and drank himself out of the game too early. Mays had FAR greater career value, due to his being consistently great and having a much longer career.

[JohnKleeb]

8. Mays, more overall talent

[underpants]

9. Mays no question

-

[kick-ass-bob]

10. Mays, Mays, Mays.

I can't think of a hole in his game.

[Huckebein the Raven]

11. I have to go with Mays

[CubsFan1982]

13. Mays is what Mantle could have been...

Had he taken care of himself. I'd take Mays any day of the week.

[sir_captain]

16. I don't really get it

Your opinion is certainly the prevailing one, but it just doesn't seem to me that it's supported by the facts. Can you explain to me what made Mays so much better?

[CubsFan1982]

29. Mays was the better baserunner and fielder.

Keeping in mind that I never saw either one of them play, I'm just going by numbers. Mays retired 9 years before I was born, Mantle 14. Mays was a better baserunner, more triples than Mantle by an almost 2:1 margin. Mays had about a 3:2 advantage over Mantle in the doubles category, and, of course, has a nearly 800 hit advantage over Mantle. In RBI, Mantle doesn't even come close. Mays had six 40 HR seasons, four of them after he turned 30, Mantle had four, none coming after he turned 30. Mays had 195 assists from the outfield, Mantle only 117.

The basic point is, Mays accomplished these things and was the superior player because he took care of himself. I'm not saying Mantle was a pile of dogshit, but if you look at what he had the potential to be, there's no reason that this man shouldn't have ended up with 700+ HRs and 3,000+ hits. At the end of the day, all that should matter are numbers.

[sir_captain]

30. There are lots of ways to argue against your numbers, though

I don't have the park-effect numbers in front of me at the moment, but let's think about this rationally. Let's start with the longevity argument (which is a fair one, and to my mind, by far the best argument in Mays' favor.) This is true, except for one problem--Mays was a mediocre player from 1967-1973, when he retired. In that time, he piled up about 500 of his hits, aobut 300 of his RBI, etc, etc. Does the fact that he hung on way too long, playing as a shadow of his former self really do him credit? I'm not sure. Of course you have to count those numbers for him, but to say that he was a great player for his whole 22 year career is nonsense--he was a great player for about 15 years.

Now, lets take a look at some other stuff. The triples, for instance. Willie Mays was a right-handed hitter in the Polo Grounds during all of his double digit triples years (except for one.) You will note that the left-field wall was about 500 feet away from home plate. Mantle had the majority of his at-bats left-handed in Yankee Stadium, where the right field wall was less than 300 feet away. See my point? This, of course, applies equally well to the doubles.

As for who was a better baserunner, I'd give the edge to Mays, but not by a huge margin. He stole twice as many bases, but his *percentage* of successful steals was lower than Mantle's.

The RBI argument is somewhat meaningless as it's really a team-based stat.

The most important stat in Mantle's favor, however, is OBP. OBP is the single most important stat in determining the offensive ability of a player, and here, Mantle was *clearly* superior. He finished his career with a lifetime .421 OBP, whereas Mays had an (otherwise excellent) .384 OBP. To me, this is what separates these two players--that extra 40 points of OBP over the course of a career simply made Mantle a more valuable offensive player.

In terms of the defense, I dunno. I'm sure Mays was better--that's surely what everyone has said. Unfortunately there's still no good way of objectively analyzing defense, and even fewer defensive stats were kept then than today.

On the whole, if I were starting a team with either of those guys, I'd take Mantle in a heartbeat.

[KitchenWitch]

18. Mays - two words - The Catch!

Better overall player, not to mention human being.

[Seabiscuit]

20. Mantle - he got the Yanks into the World Series, then won it for them.

That's not to take away anything from the great Willie Mays - perhaps the better all-around player. His teams were never as good as the Yanks in the '50's and '60's.

[John Q. Citizen]

37. The Giants beat the Yanks in the 1962 Series if I recall.

It was a big deal because of their former NY City rivalry before the Giants came West.

[CubsFan1982]

39. Nope.

Yanks won in seven games. The Series ended in a 1-0 Yankees win that ended on a Willie McCovey line drive to Yanks' 2B Bobby Richardson that, had it not been caught, would've scored Felipe Alou from third, and Willie Mays from second, and given the Giants the win. That's the closest the Giants have come to winning a World Series since moving to San Francisco.

[FrankBooth]

23. Mays

Because he's the greatest ballplayer of all time.

[sir_captain]

24. Say what?

Love the guy--but he's *not* the greatest player of all time.

[FrankBooth]

25. Au contraire!

I think he is. Well, maybe Barry, but the roids turn me off.

[Magrittes Pipe]

26. Let's see him pitch.

;)

[FrankBooth]

27. Let's see Babe run under a deep fly ball to right center

Not gonna happen.

[Magrittes Pipe]

28. Doesn't matter.

Mays was certainly a much better fielder than Ruth, and a much better baserunner. But Ruth was the superior batsman, AND was one of the best pitchers in the league before people came around to realize that he could smack the shit out of the ball.

[sir_captain]

31. Ruth was by all accounts, a fine defender until the twilight of his career

You might be shocked to hear that he stole 123 bases in his career. He was hardly a track star, but he was a much better athlete than he is given credit for. And he sure had a cannon out there in right.

[Seabiscuit]

41. Didn't have to. He could pitch a gem and knock the cowhide off a ball.

By far and away the greatest player of his time - long before steroids produced many 60+ HR seasons. During at least one year he hit more HRs than the rest of the major league combined. No one's come anywhere close to doing that ever since.

Ruth is the Sultan of Swat and the King of Baseball - all time.

[Seabiscuit]

40. I always knew Mays as "Say Hey", not "Say What?" :)

[sir_captain]

44. Hehe...I'm glad someone noticed!

[kodi]

38. having seen him play often, i agree.

had mantle not busted up his legs, he might have had the career mays had in the field, but mays was the top centefielder for a generation.

that series catch by mays? hell, i saw him do that sort of play a number of times. and mantle could too, until he ruined his legs.

[MrSlayer]

32. Have to take Mays.

Better hitter and unmatched in the field plus I don't think he was stinking drunk at every game like The Mick. If Mantle hadn't been a stumblebum his numbers might have been phenomenal.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our first quarter 2005 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
on donations from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for
your support.

[VOX]

34. Damn it, GrovelBot, what do you know about the National Pastime?

Gimme, gimme, gimme. Greed. Greed. Greed.

Come to think of it, you might know a lot about today's baseball.

[John Q. Citizen]

36. resistance is futile, lol

[Melynn]

42. Mays all the way

Mantle had bad knees and a drinking problem. I still like the Mick but I would take Mays.

[FlyByNight]

43. Mays definitely

Better all around stats and, generally, a better ball player. Had Mick taken care of himself, or had not been so self-destructive, his stats would be on par with Willie's.