I'm sorry, but Rap is bad poetry and bad art.

[Floogeldy]

There. I said it.

}(

[Radical Activist]

1. ALL of it?

That's a broad brush you paint with.

What about Public Enemy? Wyclef Jean?

[Karenina]

120. Can a shut-down be placed here,too?

Just "on principle," of course. Wouldn't want it to re-surface, eh?

[Floogeldy]

121. You just made it resurface

You big boo boo!

}(

[Karenina]

130. Quite intentionally.

And do so again to see just how much more codespeak...

[UdoKier]

2. Some of it is great.

I'm not even a big rap fan, but I've enjoyed some of it...

[Placebo]

3. You said it.

:thumbsup:

Maybe I'm just too white. There. I said it.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fenris]

5. We've had this flamewar about 10 ten times before.

[Floogeldy]

10. Wow

I've been hanging around here for a while and do not recall ever seeing this discussed.

Perhaps some Rap afficionados can explain to me WHY it is good art and good poetry. Because it seems the purveyors are more interested in talking mumbo jumbo rather than singing, and dancing rather than playing a musical instrument.

I'm open-minded. Let it fly.

[WindRavenX]

11. define "good" poetry please

And "good" art while you're at it.

[Radical Activist]

14. Oh don't make things complicated!

We're making stereotypes here.

[WindRavenX]

16. my bad

I shall return to my Yani album now.

[Radical Activist]

21. Holy Crap

Yani! lol That better be part of the joke. Otherwise all my respect for you has gone. I can forgive you liking Sideways, but Yani? lol

[WindRavenX]

I assure you, it was part of the joke.
(dear god man, you thought I did? I feel insulted!)

[Radical Activist]

35. I figured

It was funny. I give you more credit than that.

[enigmatic]

24. Yanni rocks harder then Motorhead ever has...

It's the hair!;)

[eyepaddle]

27. I'm not questioning the Hair...nobody's questioning the hair

BUT the sentence "Yanni rocks harder than Motorhead ever has" is dangerously close to shattering the Space-time continuum!

It just is.

[enigmatic]

34. If Lemmy had Yanni's hair....

He'd be bigger then Jeff Gannon, dammit!

[Floogeldy]

30. I can't come up with a good definition.

But if I could, I don't think the Fiddy Cent song performed on SNL would fit.

My gripe with Rap is that it is totally cultural and generally devoid of talented lyricists, musicians and vocalists. Rappers talk over recorded music, seldom invoke a true melody, and focus primarily on sex and dancing. That is not musicianship or art.

[WindRavenX]

37. well see, here's where I have a problem in your arguement:

That is not musicianship or art.
That's your subjective belief as to what defines "art" and true "music" talent. I see no difference between poetry of the classics and rap music- only different form. And that form is something you disagree with me on- I believe it is just as a valid form of art- expression- as anything else.

[Floogeldy]

44. Who and where are the musicians?

?

[WindRavenX]

47. um what?

Explain that statement...What are you refering to?

[Floogeldy]

82. That wasn't a statement

It was a question.

[WindRavenX]

86. I don't understand your question

They make music- they are musicians.

[Floogeldy]

93. Who and where are the great Rap musicians?

I mean, if "they" don't sing or play instruments, where is the musicianship?

Thanks,

Floog

[enigmatic]

100. Here's some:

Hank Shocklee
Eric B.
Scott LaRock
Jam Master Jay

That's just off the top of my head.

[mark414]

101. don't forget marley marl...

[enigmatic]

104. Yep!

There are many, many more..

[mark414]

109. more...

large professor
dj premier
pete rock
rza
bomb squad
organized konfusion
prince paul

ahhh could just go on forever

[Floogeldy]

108. I'll check them out

Thanks,

Floog

[WindRavenX]

105. they sing

they create music in a different way.
I'm done. This is pointless.

[regnaD kciN]

110. You know, I never thought of it that way!

I see no difference between poetry of the classics and rap music- only different form.

You might have something there! After all, can't we all agree that there's very little difference between Shakespeare's Sonnet XVIII

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this and this gives life to thee.

and Eminem's I'm Back...?

That's why they call me Slim Shady (I'm Back)
I'm Back (I'm Back) (SLIM SHADY!) I'm Back

I murder a rhyme one word at a time
You never, heard of a mind as perverted as mine
You better, get rid of that nine, it ain't gonna help
What good's it gonna do against a man that strangles himself?
I'm waitin for hell like hell s*** I'm anxious as hell
Manson, you're safe in that cell, be thankful it's jail
I used to be my mommy's little angel at twelve
Thirteen I was puttin shells in a gauge on a shelf
I used to, get punked and bullied on my block
'til I cut a kitten's head off and stuck it in this kid's mailbox
I used to give a - f***, now I could give a f*** less
What do I think of suc-cess? It sucks, too much press I'm stressed
Too much stares two breasts, too upset
It's just too much mess, I guess I must just blew up quick (yes)
Grew up quick (no) was raised right
Whatever you say is wrong, whatever I say is right
You think of my name now whenever you say, "Hi"
Became a commodity because I'm W-H-I-
-T-E, cuz MTV was so friendly to me
Can't wait 'til Kim sees me
Now is it worth it? Look at my life, how is it perfect?
Read my lips b****, what, my mouth isn't workin?
You hear this finger? Oh it's upside down
Here, let me turn this motherf***er up right now

That's why they call me Slim Shady (I'm Back)
I'm Back (I'm Back) (SLIM SHADY!) I'm Back

I take each individual degenerate's head and reach into it
just to see if he's influenced by me if he listens to music
And if he feeds into this s*** he's an innocent victim
and becomes a puppet on the string of my tennis shoe
My name is Slim Shady
I been crazy way before radio didn't play me
The sensational {"Back is the incredible!"}
With Ken Kaniff, who just finds the men edible
It's Ken Kaniff on the, internet
Tryin to, lure your kids with him, into bed
It's a, sick world we live in these days
("Slim for Pete's sakes put down Christopher Reeve's legs!")
Geez, you guys are so sensitive
("Slim it's a touchy subject, try and just don't mention it")
Mind with no sense in it, fried to get so frenetic
whose eyes get so squinted, I'm blind from smokin 'em
with my windows tinted, with nine limos rented
Doin lines of coke in 'em, with a bunch of guys hoppin out
all high and indo scented
And that's where I get my name from, that's why they call me

That's why they call me Slim Shady (I'm Back)
I'm Back (I'm Back) (SLIM SHADY!) I'm Back

I take seven (kids) from (Columbine), stand 'em all in line
Add an AK-47, a revolver, a nine
a Mack-11 and it oughta solve the problem of mine
and that's a whole school of bullies shot up all at one time
Cause (I'mmmm) Shady, they call me as crazy
as the world was over this whole Y2K thing
And by the way, N'Sync, why do they sing?
Am I the only one who realizes they stink?
Should I dye my hair pink and care what y'all think?
Lip sync and buy a bigger size of earrings?
It's why I tend to block out when I hear things
Cause all these fans screamin is makin my ears ring
So I just, throw up a middle finger and let it linger
longer than the rumor that I was stickin it to Christina
Cause if I ever stuck it to any singer in showbiz
it'd be Jennifer Lopez, and Puffy you know this!
I'm sorry Puff, but I don't give a f*** if this chick was my own mother
I still f*** her with no rubber and *** inside her
and have a son and a new brother at the same time
and just say that it ain't mine, what's my name?

That's why they call me Slim Shady (I'm Back)
I'm Back (I'm Back) (SLIM SHADY!) I'm Back

Yep...no difference at all! :eyes:

(Eminem selection chosen to avoid racial charges.)

[mark414]

128. ah

so you can take one hip hop song and all of a sudden you're right

congratulations, you've just learned the meaning of "out of context" and "selective"

so proud of you!

if you want to read about one emcee, read about this guy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2667497&mesg_id=2668152

[Floogeldy]

129. regnaD kciN?

A strange man walked up to me, handed me a note, and asked me to pass this message on to you, regnaD kciN. It says:

"Melanie Haber, Audrey Farber, Susan Underhill, and Betty Jo Bialowsky would like to meet with you tonight at my restaurant. Signed, Rocky Rococo."

I have no idea what it means.

[mark414]

41. holy shit

you just need to stop talking, right now

"totally cultural"

"devoid of talented lyricists, musicians and vocalists"

"talk over recorded music"

"seldom invoke a true melody"

"focus primarily on sex and dancing"

"that is not musicianship or art"

that's the most ignorant shit i've ever heard in my life. you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you think you're talking about. you don't know it, you don't get it, so stop being so ignorant, please.

[Floogeldy]

55. Okay. Here is your chance.

Please explain to me how something suddenly becomes music or art simpy because it is primarily cultural.

Please identify the talented lyricists, musicians and vocalists in Rap music.

Please identify the great Rap bands that play live.

Please identify the great Rap songs where the singer sings a melody.

Please identify great rap songs that do not deal primarily with sex and dancing.

Please identify the great Rap musicians.

Thanks,

Floog

[mark414]

57. you've already got your mind made up

and i'm not gonna waste my time dealing with someone being this ignorant

read some of these and maybe your mind'll actually open up a little bit

http://www.daveyd.com/cmmondirectory.html

[Floogeldy]

69. You cannot name even one?

Okay

[WindRavenX]

71. Kayne West

Perhaps you've heard "Jesus Walks"?
No sex, drugs or "hos". A brilliant hybrid of gospel and hip hop.

[Floogeldy]

78. I'll check it out

Which one is Kayne? A lyricist, musician, or singer?

Thanks,

Floog

[WindRavenX]

79. He's all three, smartass

:eyes:

[mark414]

76. i said i'm not wasting my time

i could write a 50 page paper and you'd still be ignorant

[Floogeldy]

81. Try a paragraph or two. Educate me.

Would it really take fifty pages?

Your communication skills are obviously heavily outweighed by your hostilities.

My loss, I'm sure.

[mark414]

83. educate yourself

read some of those articles on that link

do your own research

stetsasonic said it best, you need to quit talkin all that jazz

Well here's how it started
Heard you on the radio
Talkin' 'bout rap
Sayin' all that crap about how we sample
Givin' examples
Think we'll let you get away with that?
You criticize our method of how we make records
you said it wasn't art, so now we're gonna rip you apart

Stop, check it out my man
This is the music of a hip-hop band
Jazz, well you can call it that
But this jazz retains a new format
Point, where you misjudged us
Speculated, created a fuss
You've made the same mistake politicians have
Talkin' all that jazz

Talk, well I heard talk is cheap
But like beauty, talk is just skin deep
And when you lie and you talk alot
People tell you to step off alot
You see, you misunderstood
A sample is a tactic
A portion of my method, a tool
In fact it's only of importance when I make it a priority
And what we sample of, is the majority
But you are a minority, in terms of thought
Narrow minded and poorly taught
About hip-hop, playin' all the silly games
You erase my music, so no one can use it
Step on us and we'll step on you
Can't have your cake and eat it too
Talkin' all that jazz

Lies, that's when you hide the truth
It's when you talk more jazz than proof
And when you lie and address something you don't know
It's so whack that it's bound to show
When you lie about me and the band we get angry
We'll bite our pen, start writin' again
And the things we write are always true
Suckers, get a grip, now we talkin' 'bout you
Seems to me that you have a problem
So we can see what we can do to solve them
Think rap is a fad? you must be mad
'Cause we're so bad we get respect you never had
Tell the truth, James Brown was old
'Til Eric and Rakim came out with "I Got Soul"
Rap brings back old R&B
And if we would not, people could've forgot
We wanna make this perfectly clear
We're talented and strong and have no fear
Of those who choose to judge but lack pizazz
Talkin' all that jazz

Now we're not tryin' to be a boss to you
We just wanna get across to you
That if you're talkin' jazz, the situation is a no-win
You might even get hurt, my friend
Stetsasonic, the hip-hop band
And like Sly and the Family Stone, we will stand
Up for the music we live and play
And for the song we sing today
For now, let us set the record straight
And later on we'll have an informal and a formal debate
But it's important you remember, though
What you reap is what you sew
Talkin' all that jazz

Talkin' all that jazz
Talkin' all that jazz

[Floogeldy]

92. You reflect the same attitude as those words

The message: "Don't knock it, just because we say so, even though we can't justify artistically, socially or politically what we are doing."

It is rebellion for rebellion's sake, with no substance or reason.

I'm not impressed.

At least in past decades, artists and musicians expressed societal substantive disagreements and points of contention. What is the point of those words you posted? "Don't hate our crappy music just because." Because WHAT?

[mark414]

96. The Greatest of All Time

The question of just who is the greatest MC of all time has been in the forefront of my mind over the last six months. This quandary has no doubt been spurred by the recent verbal battle between NAS and Jay-Z, BET Rap City's notarization of the 50 greatest MC's, and the remembrance of Big's passing.

*snip*

With all due respect, the greatest MC did not die on March 9th, or Sept 13th, but is indeed alive and well. In this era of revisionist's Hip-Hop history it appears that the greatest MC of all time is slowly but surely being relegated to the margins of historical recall. Similar to the many civil rights activists such a Fred Shuttlesworth, James Bevel, and Bayard Rustin who profoundly influenced their more famous brethren Dr. King, Rakim Allah is becoming all but forgotten as the greatest lyrist in the young history of rap music. In conjunction with giving rappers the courage and blueprint to put forth philosophical, theological, and social concerns on wax, Rakim also changed the way rappers could flow. His slow, deliberate, and unique delivery provided the foundation for post 87 hip-hop.

Until Rakim came on the scene most rappers performed with an over the top style, utilizing dancers, outfits, and other props that were quite reminiscent of 60's Motown. And with good reason, these first generations of hip-hopers grew up on the music of Motown, and were consequently influenced by the style of groups like the Temptations and Four Tops. Even though they were on the cutting edge of a musical development they were still mimicking, style wise, prior generations in show production. In quite a number of ways Rakim is to rap what Charlie Parker and Dizzy were to Jazz. Although the art form already existed and was relatively young Byrd and Dizzy introduced Bee-Bop and changed the sound, style, and direction of Jazz music forever. Rakim is the same in the world of rap music.

In any endeavor especially the sports and entertainment, one need not necessarily a large but a reasonable size body of work to climb the mantle of the "Greatest." Ali was not considered the greatest boxer of all time simply because of his two victories over Sonny Liston. No it took time, failure, and recapturing of glory for pugilist enthusiast to grant him such a title. In my opinion Biggie has too limited of a body of work, and lack of originality to anoint him the greatest. Lets be honest, as intelligent and clever as Biggie was, he simply put an East Coast perspective on so-called "gangsta rap." The "R" was dropping mob references and pushing the gangsta style in 88-89 with Follow the Leader.

*snip*

Rakim, however, embodies every part of what these aforementioned brothers are individually great at. Rakim was and remains an original largely due to his understanding of how to straddle the line between thuggish, materialistic, and divine, while never indulging to the point of appearing overly criminal, hedonistic, or self-righteous.

Contrary to Nas's claim in 'Ether', it is Rakim's name that should be put forward in the question "name a rapper I didn't influence?" Since 1987, no other rapper has had the same profound affect on the music as Rakim. The most immediately recognizable change Rakim brought to the game was his style of flow. Until the arrival of Rakim most rappers flowed in exaggerated cadence just short of a yell. For many of the pioneers this was quite necessary since Hip-Hops genesis was in the parks of the Bronx and they had to compete with the DJ's sound system to be heard. Not to mention the point of the MC at the time was to hype the crowd at the party. Rakim, however, was the first MC to understand that in the studio one did not have to rhyme in a manner that was competing with the music, but like Frank Sintra, Rakim became an instrument in the song. Rakim's smooth and laid back flow was something that was practically unheard of in Hip-Hop when Paid in Full dropped. In fact, the first time I heard him I wasn't quite sure what to make of it. I recall reading a piece in which I believe MC Shan was working in the same studio as Rakim while he was recording Paid In Full. Shan recalled in the article commenting to someone that he thought this guy's flow was too eccentric to ever make it. But like most forms of art that aren't immediately understood it was the beginning in a shift in phenomena that would forever reshape the landscape.

The second innovative twist Rakim brought to the fold was the incorporation of serious philosophical and socio-political reflection utilizing both street and academic lexicon. Granted groups such as Grand Master Flash, and Run DMC produced some songs with relevant issues such as The Message, and It's Like That, but none took it to the level Rakim did. Flash and DMC songs highlighted the struggles of growing up black in inner city America, specifically New York. Rakim however, not only reflected upon what was going on, but also engaged his audience to look beyond their immediate circumstance. Rakim, before P.E., X-Clan, Paris, and even BDP, was also providing knowledge of Black world history.

It was Rakim that introduced an entire generation of hip-hoppers to the religion of Islam by discussing his Five Percent lessons on wax (I am completely aware of the claims and counter claims that the Five Percent Nation is not a sect of Islam per se but is often classified as such because of its use of Islamic vocabulary and its growth out of the Nation of Islam so for now I digress). Many of us who may had ignored, were unaware, or had a passing interest in the religion of Islam soon were out researching the religion and eventually expanding this pursuit of knowledge to numerous other intellectual endeavors.

It was Rakim in a song called The Ghetto who not only reflected on the blight of poverty-stricken life but also pondered on how it got that way. It was Rakim who prophesized in the track Casualties of War, the after affects of the war in Iraq and American Middle Eastern polices:

Now I'm home on reserves and you can bet when they call,
I'm going AWOL
Cause it ain't no way I'm going back to war
When I don't know who or what I'm fighting for
So I wait for terrorists to attack
Every time a truck backfires I fire back
I look for shelter when a plane is over me
Remember Pearl Harbor? New York could be over, G
Kamikaze, strapped with bombs
No peace in the east, they want revenge for Saddam 1992

In most of Rakim's songs one will find not only musical genius but also social genius the likes of post What's Going On, Marvin Gaye. All of which gave birth to the rich tradition of groups like Public Enemy, Jungle Brothers, PRT, Paris, The Coup, Dead Prez, etc. Groups who utilized the blueprint laced by Rakim and were inspired to unapologetically put their politics on wax and utilizing the music not only as entertainment, but edutainment, to coin a phrase form KRS-1.

Rakim's, dark flow and lessons from the Nation of Gods and Earth's also opened the gates for a new generation of rappers. Groups like Mobb Deep, Nas, EPMD, and yes-even Biggie are direct descendents of Rakim's innovation. All of these MC's in one form or fashion employ a part of Rakim.

*snip*

Rakim's most telling attribute has been his ability to never betray his commitment to the culture. All of the aforementioned MC's- no matter how real they have been- has at some point sacrificed their art for money, record sales, or being positive ambassador for the culture. Rakim maybe because of his aloofness has never seemingly revealed himself to be anything other than an MC committed to the mic as sincere as Malcolm was to the people.

Though Rakim lacks the notoriety that many other artist have those in the business and aficionados of classical hip-hop music know very well what Rakim means and continues to mean to the art of lyricism. I think most would agree that although Kenny G has out sold and is better known than John Coltrane, no one would argue that Kenny G was as innovative and influential as John Coltrane on sax players. Rakim is indeed the John Coltrane of Mc'ing, although he did not invent the art form, he has been unafraid to create and explore all the reaches of his mind creating a unique sound that is indeed "a Love Supreme. Biggie, Pac, and those other contenders sure to come will all go down in the annals as great but Rakim will remain the Gretzsky of rap "The Greatest."

http://www.daveyd.com/greatestemcee.html

read some of these too

http://www.daveyd.com/daveyhistorylinks2002.html

like i said, you have no idea what you're talking about and you just get more ignorant with every word you say

[enigmatic]

97. Rakim is great...

But I still love Chuck D, especially on Public Enemy's "Yo, Bum Rush The Show"..

Ever hear of these guys?



If not, check them out; the really are the genesis of Rap...

[mark414]

98. love the last poets

actually hadn't heard of them until tribe dropped 'low end theory' where they use a couple last poets samples...

[enigmatic]

102. Get anything you by them..

I playing "Martin Luther King" on my overnight show this week; next to Motorhead and Nick Drake...

[Seabiscuit]

40. We sure have.

DU is definitely split on the value of "rap".

I don't and won't call it music. There. I said it.

I attended a Smokey Robinson concert two years ago and he was talking about his younger years in the "motown" era and then brought the predominantly black audience into full applause mode when he volunteered that "rap" is NOT "music".

[RagingInMiami]

66. So there you have it

A black musician said rap is not music. So by god, that must be true then.
And now you can dislike rap music without fear of being labeled anti-black.
The way I look at it, everyone has their opinion on music and are entitled to like what they like or don't like.
I'm personally not a huge rap fan, especially the new rap, but that's because I'm 36 years old and it's hard for me to get into new youth-oriented music.
But I'm not so ignorant as to say that it is bad music, bad art or bad poetry. There is a lot of good rap about there with strong messages. And there's a lot of crappy rap, just like there is a lot of bad rock, country and dance music out there.
What I don't understand about DU, is when people who don't like a certain musical group or genre feel they have to post their opinion about it and by god, whoever does not agree with them, shall be deemed tasteless or racist or whatever.
Whatever happened to letting people listen to what they listen to and not disrespect them about it?

[slutticus]

6. Here we go.............

[eyepaddle]

7. It IS a little chilly outside...

snowing too, get the marshmallows folks!

[WindRavenX]

8. oh jeez

And jazz isn't music either. :eyes:

[DS1]

20. It's technically music in that notes are played, but just not

in any order that works out to be enjoyable :shrug:

[WindRavenX]

29. jazz or rap music?

Jazz was once thought to be trash music as well.

[eyepaddle]

36. Whaddya mean "ONCE thought to be trash?"

:shrug:


Just Kidding!

Here's a side question: isn't the "shrug" the most belligerent emoticon of all time?

[Blue-Jay]

9. Are you trying to piss people off on purpose?

As with any art form, there is a wide range of art vs. crap.

[Floogeldy]

42. I regularly try to piss people off.

However, ironically, this post was not so intended.

}(

[donheld]

113. I think that was indeed your intent.

If it wasn't then why start the thread at all?

[Hatalles]

12. Run a search for the artist "Paris."

And then tell me if Rap is bad poetry and bad art. While I agree that most of it is garbage (edit: well, the kind of rap Clear Channel selects to play nationwide), some rap is very very good.

http://browse.lyrics.astraweb.com:2882/browse/bands/25/Paris.html

"Evil"
Paris

They don't mind you givin' the latest rap
They don't mind your being hoes
They don't mind your being bitches
They don't mind you being whatever image that Viacom and BET can come up with
But what they don't want you to know..
Is that you're the ones that can redefine civilization if you take time to do it

It's a Guerrilla Funk-orchestrated counter-attack
Formulate and infiltrate 'em so the people react
See if I was wicked I would pick and stick to a plan
To rule the world and trick 'em, this is how it'd begin

See I'd have to find a way to keep the people enslaved
Behave, teach the babies it's my way or the grave
And start with the body, workin' labor for free
And give 'em fake religion so they worshippin' me

And see and when the free labor play out, I'd let it go
But only after I made enough to control
Then I'd tell 'em that the Afterlife is better than this
And that they should love their enemies when faced with contempt

I'd persist with some history that I would rewrite
In a school system where I'd keep the money too tight
I'd let 'em all know just where they belong in my world
Turn the boys into felons, makin' hookers of girls

Swirled up in my plan, build jails to keep
All my prisons full of niggas, have 'em workin' for free
See with ghetto-economics in check, I'd keep 'em broke
Teach 'em only to respect sports, music and dope

Control the content of lyrics, now only the sound
Of sex, dope and murder in a song is allowed
Tell 'em “Niggas ain't shit” every move that they make
And that black is dirty so they never try to be great

Can you relate? I'd laugh, watch 'em murder for scraps
Set it up so they'd die over crack I provide
Do it right, and I'd see they try to be like me
Try to be the biggest “G” up in these murderous streets

I'd teach, manhood means how many women ya fuck
How many babies you can make, responsibility ducked
Fuck a job, real men are pimps, that's what I'd teach
And if bitches wanna trip, then them bitches get beat

I'd see it all through, never lose and pass a new law
Give 'em 3 strikes so the men are constantly gone
Yeah, if I was evil they would think I do no wrong

See it's lethal how I keep 'em in their place so long, believe

Chorus:
I got my eyes upon you, and all the things that you do
Some close they eyes but mine can see, all the evil surroundin' me
So what I'm 'posed ta do, when I can see right through?
Expose the lies and snatch the sheets, fight the evil surroundin' me

After all is said and done here and I could afford
I'd concentrate deeply on controllin' abroad
And think about a way to take control of they land
I'd create a virus made to murder people en masse

Last time was Tuskegee, but now it's for real
House Bill 15090 would just kill
With germs that would murder with sperm and blood drips
And kill 'em all worser than burned, they'd die quick

See to understand, you could witness the plan
Through the green-monkey sham they would think it began
And while we argue over the cost, they'd all die
With generations all being lost with no fight

I'd continue with the pain, make it oh-so plain
I'd manipulate the market for my capital gain
Keep the people all broke and confused and underclass
Give my homies all executive bonuses through the crash

And if the heat get too hot, I'd plant a bomb
Or wreck a plane, just like Hitler back in the day
And scare all the people, they'd forget about me
They'd forget about elections and the way that we cheated

See me blame it on a foreigner and non-white men
Celebrate my gestapo with a positive spin
Then manipulate the media - it's U.S. first
Get the stupid-ass public to agree with my words

Then I'd make the play, takin' all their freedoms away
Incarcerate anybody that'll get in my way
Make 'em censor any media that challenge the mold
Give 'em bullshitty shows just like Anna Nicole's

Control the message in the music - it's gangsta fo' sho
Give 'em diamonds, never tell 'em 'bout the conflict zones
Never tell 'em 'bout the murder in Sierra Leone
Never tell 'em how the diamonds make 'em murder their own

It's all too easy, if I was evil that's how I'd rock it
Make sure that my propaganda won't ever stop it
Got 120 channels, but it's nothin' to watch
Now 11:55 be the time on the clock, believe..

[mark414]

13. now that i've had some time to think about it

after having my message deleted (due to personal insult)

you say you want people to "explain" to you why it's "good poetry and good art"

i really only have this to say

if you can't understand it on your own, if you can't "get it"

then you don't deserve to know man

you've admitted that you don't understand it, so why would take the time and energy to attack something that you don't understand?

seems kind of ignorant to me.

[Floogeldy]

15. Where did I post that I "don't understand it?"

?

[RagingInMiami]

26. You don't have to actually write "I don't understand it"

To let us know, you really don't understand it.
But it's cool. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

[donheld]

114. Some people don't get things because they don't want to

get things. It takes too much energy to try to get it, but a whole lot less energy to try to get it. What i don't get is, if they don't want to get it, why not just leave it be? That takes the least energy of all.

[progmom]

17. that's funny

Fifty Cent was on SNL, and I leaned over to my husband and said: "This is a really boring song, and it will probably contribute to middle class white America's perception that rap requires no talent. I'm going to get back to DU and find multiple threads about how rap sucks, aren't I?"

So thanks for not letting me down.

[enigmatic]

19. THAT'S funny!

;)

[RevolutionaryActs]

18. oh

[progmom]

23. uh huh

:thumbsup:

[candy]

22. I agree 100%--n/t

[Neoma]

25. i like underground rap.

you know..the stuff they won't play on the radio.

[ashmanonar]

31. yea, i think that's true of any music.

anything the establishment doesn't like, with a few exceptions, is probably good.

exceptions: green day american idiot...just fucking amazing.

um. help me out.

in any case. yea. right. rap can suck, but it can be good. depends on the "artist" and the message.

[BlueJazz]

28. I think one reason why a lot of folks don't care for Rap....

..is the fact that they don't understand the words.

No..I don't mean that they don't understand the MEANING of the words..they don't hear the words.

Of course, that's hard to do when most Rap songs sound like somebody with a mouth full of food.

U..I's gir ser geaw ist mine;
gree mas id anr giw vier tak is baj;
I jus cin her dwn noty feod cajunk? :
Wiss youk huom dons just baid ..

I'm serious..that's what Rap songs sound like to 95 percent of the public...just a shit-pile bunch of lousy English.

[RagingInMiami]

38. Just say ebonics

We can handle it

[BlueJazz]

43. No..it's more than that.

It's really not that hard to even understand ebonics.
..But when even black musicians I play with say "I don't know what-the-fuck they're saying, I can't translate it, man" Than it's just shitty English.

[RagingInMiami]

48. Ebonics = shitty English

[DrWeird]

122. Ebonics = just as good as any other English dialect.

Only difference is that mostly African Americans speak "ebonics."

[Seabiscuit]

50. That's just one of the problems with "rap"

Add in the annoyingly repetitive "thump thump thump" bass, no melodic line whatsoever, no harmony whatsoever, no chord structure, predominantly unintelligible words spoken instead of sung, and if you simply pay no attention to the words the rhythm of each "rap" song (???) sounds exactly like every other one, white a-holes like Enemaman imitate it while trying to act what they imagine is "black", and it's no wonder singers like Smokey Robinson say "rap isn't music".

[WindRavenX]

52. you're listening to mainstream music

And for god's sake, just because it's a form that you don't personally like, DON'T say it's NOT art.
And jesus, this just pisses me off:
and if you simply pay no attention to the words the rhythm of each "rap" song (???) sounds exactly like every other one
How much rap music have you honestly listened to? I mean, really.

[Seabiscuit]

61. Why do you take all this so personally?

It's nothing to get pissed off about.

I'm an amateur musician. I don't consider "rap" music by any musical standards. That's all.

Big deal.

[WindRavenX]

63. Why?

Because I hate it when people think they can take act pretentious by proclaiming that rap or ANY FORM OF MUSIC isn't "good" or "really music".
You don't like rap music? THAT'S COOL. I TOTALLY respect that.
I don't like country music. I think it sucks. But it's MUSIC and it's a form of ART.

[Seabiscuit]

65. If you enjoy listening to "rap", more power to you.

"It's just not my cup of tea, dahling."

I was raised on classical music, 40's Big Band music, jazz, rock 'n roll, folk music, 60's bands, the Greatful Dead, psychedelic music, motown, etc., etc. and still enjoy the few good bands out there.

But popular music as a whole has gone downhill over the past one or two decades and largely due to the commercial explosion of "hip-hop" and "rap" IMHO.

I'm not making factual claims. I'm stating my opinions. These are simply matters of taste. Neither Smokey Robinson, a true motown musical genius, nor I, consider "rap" to be music. You do. So what?

It's no big deal.

[WindRavenX]

68. that's fine

I just get wicked pissed at broad-brush generalizations. Mainstream music is not my cup of tea either.

[Seabiscuit]

75. Kool.

:toast:

[regnaD kciN]

111. Pot, meet kettle...

I just get wicked pissed at broad-brush generalizations.

This from the poster who claims that the only reason people dislike rap is that they're racists.

:eyes:

[huellewig]

87. What about someone making MUSIC with Reason and ProTools?

The proper use of software can be just as difficult as banging a drum.

[RagingInMiami]

62. It's the same thing they said about Elvis Presley's music back in the day

[enigmatic]

60. Howard Dean has said that he likes rap music..

Is he a moron in your eyes now?

[Seabiscuit]

70. He also pissed off John Edwards when he stereotyped southerners

as driving pickup trucks with confederate flags on them.

Dean's said a lot of things I don't personally agree with and I don't have to share all his likes and dislikes or agree with all of his preferences (e.g. he drives an SUV, and owns a rifle) to admire the man's spine and principles when it comes to politics.

JFK cheated on his wife repeatedly. I didn't like that. But I still admire the man for his accomplishments.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Rabrrrrrr]

33. Pretty much all industrial corporate-music is crap

rap, hiphop, "rock", country, whatever. Most of it, at the corporate level, is crap.

The stuff at the bottom, that hasn't hit the mainstream, that hasn't been dissected to find the "selling formula", that's the stuff that's good.

I've long felt it utterly ironic that two forms of music, that were supposed to anti-corporate, anti-bullshit, anti-formula, grassroots music coming from the people at street level, became owned by corporations: "alternative rock" was the first one, then rap.

Rappers talking about the shithole of the ghetto, and the nastiness of the white man, and the cruelty of the cops, who live in million dollar manstions in gated communities in Florida and Connecticut and Hollywood, and who then expect their fans to buy $150 rap-label sweatshirts and $100 shirts and etc., I find ironic.

[RevolutionaryActs]

39. Rabrrrrrr, what a totally awesome post. I mean that.

:yourock:

[JohnLocke]

73. I second the motion

:yourock::yourock:

[donheld]

115. "Corporate" really is ruining all forms of music

They are right Rabrrr :yourock: Great post.

[DS1]

45. On a side note - backup rap singers are the most annoying form of human

on the planet

PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!

Yeah, fuck you, pal.

[Floogeldy]

46. You forgot "Shake that ass"

Shake that ass
Shake that ass
Shake that ass
Shake that ass

[mark414]

51. you mean the hype man

a la flava flav

[DS1]

56. Flava flav took some getting used to

Now I just laugh

[leftofthedial]

49. our current "culture" is very mediocre

long on technology and attitude, but very shallow

short on creativity, short on content, short on art

[WindRavenX]

54. wow

short on creativity, short on content, short on art
What is "art" you and why should everything be judged on your personal opinion of what art is or isn't?
Again, jazz was once trashed in the exact same manner as rap music. It was simply a new form of expression.
Art and expression are not static- and that's why any static measure of what art can or can not be is crap. It's subjective.
Rap is a powerful expression in a new form- because art is ever evolving, because music is ever changing.

[Seabiscuit]

59. I was around when jazz was criticized.

But it was relatively new then - the criticism didn't last long and jazz has lasted ever since as an art form. In the case of "rap", the criticism continues to increase in intensity 30 years since it began.

[WindRavenX]

64. Jazz was around a LOT longer before you were born

And just because something is criticized for a longer amount of time it doesn't suddenly mean the criticism is right.

[Floogeldy]

67. Jazz players are excellent musicians

Rappers are, uh . . . excellent talkers. BIG DEAL!

}(

[enigmatic]

72. Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'...

Is this about how many people you thought you'd reel in w/ this thread?

[WindRavenX]

74. sigh

I give up.

[Floogeldy]

84. You give up pretty easily

You know, there are other forms of expression besides anger.

[WindRavenX]

88. Who said I was angry?

Please, don't tell someone who writes poetry, novels, and who draws that there are other expressions. Please don't...

[leftofthedial]

106. "why should everything be judged ...blah blah blah" ??

because

so there

The current age of recycling masquerading as "art" will soon run out of cultural detritus to repackage.

Then, people will have to figure out once again how to create and how to appreciate something that has not been predigested, regurgitated and then freeze dried for their convenience.

I don't think Murka is very likely to be where that happens.

[Seabiscuit]

58. You'd enjoy the Queen show in Vegas: "We Will Rock You"

Saw it Monday night and it was great & also hilarious - the theme is about how "American Idol" killed rock 'n roll.

[enigmatic]

53. Listen to these guys:

The Last Poets:

[intrepid_wanderer]

77. I like a lot of rap - there, I said it! n/t

[last_texas_dem]

80. I'll give you this

I think most rap sucks. Most of the rap I hear is overproduced, tuneless garbage with lyrics I can't relate to on any level. The little bit of rap I hear occasionally and like I can't enjoy more than on the "guilty pleasure" level that I enjoy some mainstream pop music. Even the little bit of critically-acclaimed rap I've heard doesn't do much for me, though I can at least respect the artists and the tastes of those who do like it.

I even respect the rights of others to like bad rap music, as long as they respect my right to like the "bad" music I like!

I agree that most of rap is "bad poetry", though most of rock is, too, and some of the rock with dumb lyrics is some of my favorite stuff.

Then again, it's all a subjective judgment. I definitely agree with the gist of your statement, but I might have phrased it differently. Discussions of taste are always more civil if accompanied with qualifying statements like "in my highly subjective view!" :-)

I will say, though, it does bother me that statements like this about rap get attacked quite a bit on DU when they are made, while I think I remember having seen criticisms of country music phrased similarly get nothing but "amen"s. It seems to parallel how racist statements would be (justifiably) attacked if made on DU, unless they are about "white trash"- especially "southern white trash." This is just my observation, though.

[RagingInMiami]

85. Speaking of "southern white trash"

I am one of few people on DU, besides Zombywoof and a couple of others, who defend Lynyrd Skynyrd when they get bashed on this forum, which happens every two weeks or so.

[enigmatic]

90. And those threads are as stupid as this one...

Yet they come back like vampires...

And yes, LS was NOT a right wing band when Ronnie was alive..

[last_texas_dem]

91. Good job on that

It's funny just how often the "Sweet Home Alabama"/"Southern Man" feud gets rehashed on here. I understand how easily the message of "Sweet Home Alabama" could be misinterpreted (until I read a little bit about Lynyrd Skynyrd I didn't know what the song's intent was either) but it just surprises me how the implications of two thirty-plus-year-old songs are so pre-eminent in DUers' minds!

It does suck how the modern-day Lynyrd "Red, White and Blue" Skynyrd has tarnished the message of the original band.

[RagingInMiami]

94. You got that right

As a native Floridian, I've always loved LS.
The assholes today that are calling themselves that should be sued for misrepresentation.

[Queen Jane]

89. way to stereotype an entire genre. get over yourself. ":)"

[Dastard Stepchild]

95. Eh, most current popular music is....

I don't genre discriminate. I think it is all mostly crap. :)

[bloodyjack]

99. STOP BEING IGNORANT YOU'RE BEING IGNORANT

[Floogeldy]

103. Of what am I ignorant?

Tell me. I'm open-minded.

Thanks,

Floog

[bloodyjack]

107. No, no! You misunderstand me completely!

I agree with you!

Rap sucks!

[donheld]

112. Oh STOP!

That's EXACTLY what my parents said about rock n roll. If you don't like it fine, don't listen. Just leave it alone. Do you have someone forcing you to listen to it?

[noiretextatique]

116. ever try to rap? it's not as easy as it looks

that's for sure..it takes some skill. most corporate music sucks, and if you weren't purposely starting shit, you would have mentioned that. btw, the last poets are actually POETS...to the person who keeps telling everyone to listen to them. like wanda coleman, gil scott-heron and others, the last poets did spoken word before rap became all the rage, but i don't think they consider themselves "rappers." and i doubt this person could handle their material either.

[China_cat]

117. The 'c' in RAP is silent.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ariesgem]

119. As a 41 year old African American

and native New Yorker (from Queens) who came up when rap and the hip hop culture was just a baby, I have to disagree with you. The lyrics that came from the artists I listened to painted clear pictures of my young life in New York and my culture as an African American.

Most kids coming from the neigborhood could not afford guitars, drums, amps, years of lessons, etc... to musically express themselves or as some here put it - to become "real musicians". To some, the turntable skills of say, Grand Master Flash may be as masterful as Eddie Van Halen is on a guitar. As a lyricist, Nas is to some, is what John Lennon is to others. We may or may not like it and/or identify with it. If you hate it, leave it the hell alone and move along to something that you enjoy.


I don't listen to today's rap music. When you get to be my age, you tend to hold on to the music and memories that you grew up with.

Now People - DON'T PUSH ME CAUSE I'M CLOSE TO THE EDGE.....

[curse10]

123. thanks, ariesgem

and I agree 100% :-)

[Floogeldy]

124. Very enlightening and thought provoking post

Thanks.

[wiley]

126. Live Long and Prosper Brother!

Hip Hop and Rap have produced some of the most memorable music ever recorded. So some ludicris posturing, misogynistic, homophobic (c)rap gets caught up in the mix. That's life. Like any other genre of music you pick what you like. You can also let the people whose lyrics or actions you don't like know why. That's lack of censorship. Just wait until the new $500,000 indecency law starts getting used against performers and musicians. I'd really prefer to not have people channel Ann Coulter at DU.

[ariesgem]

127. My post or my name doesn't make it clear that I'm a sister....... : )

[Bridget Burke]

125. Rap may not be my cup of tea, but I won't condemn the whole genre.

There's more to it than what you hear on blown-out speakers as people you fear drive by.

There's more to it than Gangsta Rap.

Learning about the roots of hip-hop helped this middle-aged white chick understand. (Of course, remembering Lightnin' Hopkins rhyming about life in the 3rd Ward, with minimal instrumental backing, may have been a better background than the artists you heard in your youth.) I found John Nova Lomax's article on Latino hip-hip in Houston quite enlightening.

http://houstonpress.com/issues/2003-12-04/news/feature_1.html



If you want to be less boring, tell us about what you like.

[achtung_circus]

131. Well, I tend to agree

but I'm an old fart.

[MrSlayer]

132. Rap used to be good a long time ago.

Rap died in the mid 90's when it went completely commercial.