Is rap too black for DU?

[RagingInMiami]

Remember when Kerry's people were criticized for being "too white" as in not representing real America? Sometimes I get the impression that DU, despite all its good intentions, is just "too white" and not in touch with real America.
I know I will get flamed for this, so bring it on.
But the truth is, the majority of DUers are white and from what I read, they don't really care much for rap music, which is cool.
As I've said before, we're all entitled to our opinions.
But to come out and say it is not music or bad art or bad poetry and follow it up with something like "there I said it" is really no different than the people who criticized Elvis or the Beatles back in the day.

[mark414]

1. yep

it's the same reason jazz was so easy for people to criticize, because it was a bunch of black men doing something new, groundbreaking, and completely different from anything that had been heard before.

there's a lot of lily white rock bands who've said things a lot more terrible than you'll find in ANY rap song but where's the condemnation of them? you won't find it.

my problem with the criticism of hip hop is not that people have different opinions; that's ok, i understand, there's a lot of music i don't like.

but i don't go out of my way to insist that something i don't like "isn't music or art" or any of the other bullshit that i read on here whenever hip hop comes up in a conversation.

like you said, the great majority of DUers are white folks, most of whom have probably never even taken the time to sit down and listen to a hip hop album, and just go on what they read in the news or the little that they do catch on TV or whatever.

that's called IGNORANCE and that's what upsets me. hip hop saved my life so damn right i'm going to take these attacks personally. if you don't like it fine, just don't be an ass about it.

[Floogeldy]

23. You're deluding yourself

There is no evidence that anybody on this board has criticized Rap because many black people are involved.

You've got to do better than that.

Just talkers, dancers, and bad poets dominate the Rap industry. Color has nothing to do with it.

[Karenina]

43. Mediocrity REIGNS

Throughout the entire MUSIC INDUSTRY. The Rap/Hip-hop section is a ca$h cow. (The exceptions to that assertion are "classical" and "world" NEITHER of which is a ca$h cow).

I'll leave your last sentence alone for now. :evilgrin:

[WindRavenX]

2. I agree with you

It's another form of expression that is getting labeled as distinctly "black"- which creates alienation and fear of the "other". It's seen as foreign.

[NightTrain]

3. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.

Truly soulful people at DU are few and far between.

[Donkeyboy75]

35. I'm one of them.

At least I'll be soleful for the next 24 hours or so. Sole is great with a lemon-caper sauce.

[Magrittes Pipe]

48. It's nearly impossible to get true Dover sole in the States.

But when you do.... :9

[Donkeyboy75]

99. And you certainly pay for it as well.

But it's worth it.

If you're in Chicago today, check out The Fish Guy around 4400 N Elston. I know I've found it there before. :9

[Goldmund]

4. Fine as far as musical prejudices, but how is it a white/black issue?

[WindRavenX]

6. it's a racial issue because rap music is associated with being black

Jazz music was called "n*gger music" and was thought of being a lower form of music because it was associated with race. Elvis Presely had the same thing said of him.
We're seeing that with rap music.
It's sad.

[regnaD kciN]

19. Playing the race card...

I remember, back in the 70s, some people claiming that the only reason a person wouldn't like disco was that disco was "gay music," and thus anyone who didn't like disco was homophobic. :eyes:

Maybe we can start asserting that, if you don't like the symphonies of Gustav Mahler, you're an anti-Semite? :crazy:

For my own tastes, I can't stand hip-hop. So, according to some here, that makes me a racist. I also can't stand country music. Maybe I'm "not white enough?"

:shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

36. Mahler's symphonies are kinda long...

:)

[Karenina]

46. Yeah, but the 3rd one

although a bit heavy, is DEFINITELY a keeper! Try it if you haven't!

[Magrittes Pipe]

50. I have beautiful boxes of Georg Solti conducting nearly all of them.

I think I'm missing the 4th.

[Swamp Rat]

103. Yeah, "Kräftig" is long and heavy at times, but then there are light and

bouncy sections - this first movement could stand alone as a singular work. The second mvt., "Tempo di menuetto." is beautiful. :)

[mondo joe]

59. Ridiculous.

The idea that disliking a STYLE of music must be attributed to RACE is ridiculous.

Or do you only LIKE rapp because it's associated with race?

[ProfessorGAC]

80. Excuse Me, But. . .

. . .i've been a jazz fan since i was about 10 years old (and i'm 48 now). The single largest influences on my playing are Monk, Tyner, and Taylor. These are all black men, the last time i checked.

Back in the day, i was an enormous Stevie Wonder fan. I bought every album the DAY IT HIT THE STORES! His color didn't matter to me then. I know (or at least did know) every word to every Temptations song and the hits by the Spinners and ChiLites. So, i'm finding it a bit offensive that i have to preface my comments to show my lack of racist tendencies.

Yet, i don't care for rap all that much. There are rap or hip-hop things i think are very well crafted and i do like them. People that push the musical envelope, like Chuck D, are perfectly fine by me! Good is good! Crap is crap!

But, a lot of it is garbage, probably because as a musical cash cow, the productions are about sales, not skills. That happens in any form of music. Pop music will generaly suck the life out of any genre.

But, it's not the newness; it's not that i can't or won't relate; it's not the color. I just don't care for it. Why does it HAVE to be related to race?
The Professor

[Karenina]

87. Prof, the undercurrent here

has NOTHING to do with "music." The "music" is no more that the canary in the MINEshaft. ;-)

[RevolutionaryActs]

I agree with you.

You might not like rap (or any other kind of music), you might not agree with what some rap says (or any other kind of music), but it's still a form of musical and artistic expression.

[Karenina]

49. I have the UTMOST respect

for a talented rapper. Especially extemporaneous ones. Talk about your artistic expression, can I get a little "Spearhead" around here, somewhere? However, being a Luddite music snob, I define it more as poetry set to a "soundscape" which is to "music" what a collage is to watercolor.

[mark414]

5. i can also say that not many people are going to comment on this thread

because no one wants to acknowledge and admit exactly what you said

*sigh* this place disappoints me

[Karenina]

65. Doch, doch, Mäuschen!

:hug: Geht's los!!! :evilgrin:

I posted in this thread before I discovered what preceded it...

MEINE FICKEN FRESSE!!! The OP could simply have stood on a soapbox hurling charged epithets. THAT would have worked too! ;-)

[Placebo]

7. Consider this:

I have had black friends all my life and some of my closest friends are black, and I still think rap is meaningless tripe.

Although, it seems like the majority of white people I know who enjoy rap are conservative republican little spoiled brats hypocrites who certainly don't put their vote where their music is.

Does the fact that they listen to Fifty Cent but vote for W make them more "black" than me, despite the fact that I have tons of black friends and vote for a candidate who actually might do something that benefits their brothers and sisters, but who oh by the way, still thinks rap is crap?

I Report, You Decide. :eyes:

[HamdenRice]

68. Some of my best friends are black??? WTF???

I don't mean to jump on you, but back in the 60s, the line, "some of my best friends are black" was actually the punch line of innumerable jokes about white people being clueless about race -- even jokes by mainstream white comedians like Johnny Carson. It just includes so many ill ideas -- like you have to prove your credibility by having a black friend? or this makes you an expert on the black experience? It is amazing to me that we live in such a racially clueless age, that people can actually preface their comments with that line without any irony whatsoever.

And this is now a common preface for comments by white DUers

Sigh ...

<edited>

[Karenina]

72. We're NOT discussing "Rap music" here. NOT AT ALL.

Perhaps you, as I did, missed the thread that got this one going.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2667497

"Rap" to this discussion is Gaygannon to breach of security.

Again, I compile the posts that will clarify the hostile environment that has the chick-a-dees SCREECHING with GOOD reason:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2667497

OP: I'm sorry, but Rap is bad poetry and bad art. There. I said it.
(Unless otherwise indicated, ALL are posts from the OP).

10. Wow I've been hanging around here for a while and do not recall ever seeing this discussed.
Perhaps some Rap afficionados can explain to me WHY it is good art and good poetry. Because it seems the purveyors are more interested in talking mumbo jumbo rather than singing, and dancing rather than playing a musical instrument. I'm open-minded. Let it fly.

30. I can't come up with a good definition. But if I could, I don't think the Fiddy Cent song performed on SNL would fit.
My gripe with Rap is that it is totally cultural and generally devoid of talented lyricists, musicians and vocalists. Rappers talk over recorded music, seldom invoke a true melody, and focus primarily on sex and dancing. That is not musicianship or art.

-----------------------------WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO!-----------------------
progmom Sun Feb-20-05 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
17. that's funny

Fifty Cent was on SNL, and I leaned over to my husband and said: "This is a really boring song, and it will probably contribute to middle class white America's perception that rap requires no talent. I'm going to get back to DU and find multiple threads about how rap sucks, aren't I?"

So thanks for not letting me down.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

44. Who and where are the musicians?

93. Who and where are the great Rap musicians? I mean, if "they" don't sing or play instruments, where is the musicianship?
Thanks, Floog

55. Okay. Here is your chance.
Please explain to me how something suddenly becomes music or art simpy because it is primarily cultural.

Please identify the talented lyricists, musicians and vocalists in Rap music.

Please identify the great Rap bands that play live.

Please identify the great Rap songs where the singer sings a melody.

Please identify great rap songs that do not deal primarily with sex and dancing.

Please identify the great Rap musicians.

Thanks, Floog

69. You cannot name even one? Okay

81. Try a paragraph or two. Educate me. Would it really take fifty pages? Your communication skills are obviously heavily outweighed by your hostilities. My loss, I'm sure.

92. You reflect the same attitude as those words
The message: "Don't knock it, just because we say so, even though we can't justify artistically, socially or politically what we are doing." It is rebellion for rebellion's sake, with no substance or reason. I'm not impressed.
At least in past decades, artists and musicians expressed societal substantive disagreements and points of contention. What is the point of those words you posted? "Don't hate our crappy music just because." Because WHAT?

--------A member of the choir says, Amen!-------------------
45. On a side note - backup rap singers are the most annoying form of human on the planet

PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!
PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR!

Yeah, fuck you, pal.
---------------------------------------------------
46. You forgot "Shake that ass"

Shake that ass
Shake that ass
Shake that ass
Shake that ass

67. Jazz players are excellent musicians. Rappers are, uh . . . excellent talkers. BIG DEAL!

103. Of what am I ignorant? Tell me. I'm open-minded.

Thanks, Floog
--------------------------------Another Amen------------------
Response to Reply #103
107. No, no! You misunderstand me completely! I agree with you!
Rap sucks!

K: I reiterate, this is NOT a discussion about Rap music.

[Placebo]

105. "Clueless about race."

Man, if only it wasn't against the rules on DU to tell someone to go fuck themselves because their totally wrong opinions about me, without even knowing me, are worth less than nothing.

And if I didn't put that in there first, don't try and tell me you WOULDN'T have come at me all "Well I bet you don't even have any black friends or never have!" :eyes:

[last_texas_dem]

8. I'm not sure, personally

I don't like most of the rap that I'm familiar with because I simply don't like how it sounds. I'm not too big on techno, modern dance, mainstream country, or "nu metal" music either. Rap is a primarily black form of music, while the others are primarily white forms of music. I don't think race really comes into play in that judgment.

I don't relate to what a lot of rap lyrics are about. Maybe it's 'cause I'm a middle-class white guy from a small southern town. But I don't relate to what a lot of rock songs are about or what a lot of country songs are about, either, even though the artists performing the songs may be from more similar backgrounds to my own.

I like a lot of music by white artists; admittedly, the majority of the music I listen to is by whites. But I like a lot of music by black artists, too, even if it's mostly older stuff- Motown, Stax, Philadelphia International artists and the like. The majority of the music I listen to is from the sixties and seventies, so that should make sense.

Not being able to relate to the lyrics is a small part of why I don't like much rap, but since that is also why I don't like plenty of rock, country, etc., I don't think this is because of racism on my part. To me, it has the most to do with not liking how most of the rap/hip-hop I hear sounds.

[WindRavenX]

9. an interesting observation:

So far I have seen arguements only on what isn'tmusic- nothing about what music "is".
Hmm.

[realisticphish]

10. honestly

i think of music like porn... i know it when i see it

i think it is entirely subjective :shrug:

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[WindRavenX]

11. exactly

Which is why the broad-brush painting of any genre of form as "not" music pisses the living hell out of me!

[realisticphish]

12. as a fan of heavy metal

(as well as of funk, blues, jazz, classical, and certain forms of rap), i get that ALL the time. that's just noise, not music, etc...

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Floogeldy]

26. But you shouldn't make the mistake of assuming it is about race

without any evidence of racial prejudice.

[Karenina]

100. You may see some

in my post #72 if you read it real s-l-o-w and carefullike...

[enigmatic]

13. You get the post of the night!

You're right.

[Floogeldy]

27. I love the Beatles

Including early Beatles, a time period during which that group did everything it possibly could to emulate black artists from America.

Personally, I was a professional guitarist for about twenty years. A great deal of my time was spent attempting to emulate a great black artist by the name of Jimi Hendrix.

I think you should apologize for accusing posters of knocking Rap because of the color of some Rappers' skin.

[Radical Activist]

14. Yes, it is

It's also too black for the environmental movement and the Boston-based section of the Kerry campaign. The left does still have some race issues to deal with.

[Placebo]

15. What are you talking about?

I direct you to my post, #7:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2667917#2667976

[Radical Activist]

16. actually, i'm not really talking about rap at all

I'm talking about the lack if diversity in certain sections of the progressive movement.

[realisticphish]

24. that's true

but is that the fault of the progressive movement? im not being snarky im just putting it out for thought

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Karenina]

53. Would someone who perceived

the "progressive movement" as exhibiting certain biases be considered "too sensitive?"

[regnaD kciN]

17. Well, for that matter...

But to come out and say it is not music or bad art or bad poetry and follow it up with something like "there I said it" is really no different than the people who criticized Elvis or the Beatles back in the day.

I've always thought that Elvis sucked, too!

(ducking and running)

[RagingInMiami]

21. Elvis was the king, a title well deserved

[Kahuna]

89. "Elvis sucked?" Don't like good singing, huh? That is part of the

difference between people who like rap and people who don't. People who don't like rap tend to like their music SUNG, not talked. I'm one of those. So, if you prefer talked music, you probably would think that elvis sucked. :shrug:

[WMliberal]

18. nope. It'd be a nice change from the 90s rock band vs. 90s rock band

polls that pop up every two hours.

[leftofthedial]

20. No.

But about 99% of it is way too stupid for DU.

The other 1% is just incredibly good and powerful stuff.

[enigmatic]

22. Just like every other kind of music out there...

[leftofthedial]

28. I don't know

Everyone has preferences, but I truly believe rap (indeed most of the "urban dance" supergenre) is even more devoid of quality than most other genres.

[enigmatic]

30. I disagree..

If you want souless pap, I'd pick Muzak. But that's me.

[Karenina]

54. WHOOMP!

Dey it is!!!!

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Not for me and I am white female and 46

I definitely think rap is an art and it's ten times harder than people who knock it realize. It's using your voice as a percussive instrument.
There's crap just like there is in any genre...but really good, well executed rap is great.

[Champ]

62. Last sentence pretty much covered for me

There's crap just like there is in any genre...but really good, well executed rap is great.

[Bok_Tukalo]

29. What does melanin have to do with it?

That's just absurd.

I don't think cheap porn is real cinema. What group does that indicate I don't like?

[psychopomp]

38. Nice analogy

Rap is to music as cheap porn is to cinema. :crazy:

[Karenina]

55. Good catch!

:evilgrin:

[Borgnine]

31. It has nothing, nothing to do with race.

I hate the vast majority of all music nowadays, save for some exceptions in every genre. Rap is no exception. There's some innovative stuff there, but a lot of it is just copy cat crap that all sounds the same. It's no different from modern day rock, country, and any other garbage record labels try to shove at us.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[MrModerate]

33. It is not music, it is bad art and lame poetry . . .

And ugly and pretentious, requires extremely slender talent to produce, is about as intellectually challenging as snot-diving, is often antisocial, and about as appealling as setting my Casio keyboard on "perma-thump" mode.

(None of which is true of Elvis or the Beatles)

The color is irrelevant. Eminem's about the worst practicioner out there and he's as white as the belly of a fish.

There, I said it.

I follow a similar rule with painting. If it can be reproduced by a 5-year-old, or a chimp, or a trained elephant, then I'm not required to consider it art, to like it, or offer much respect to the "artist."

[Califooyah Operative]

40. I disagree with just about everything you just said.

hehe. I think it is music, i've produced it my self, and i know for a fact it's not as easy as turning your casio on thump. If that's what you think it's about, then your mis/uninformed.

5 year olds can learn to play a violen or a piano, i've yet to meet one who can make a decent rap song.

If you're making your assumptions on eminem, that's part of your problem right there.

You're closed minded view of what constitutes art / music is unfortunate.

[MrModerate]

61. Please feel free to disagree . . .

Since art is largely about feeling, if you feel the "art" of rap, then more power to you -- just don't expect me to share those feelings.

My argument really comes in two parts: 1) rap is unaesthetic (and hence should be despised) and 2) it requires neither talent nor skill nor heart to produce.

Doesn't mean that it can't be successful with the people -- there's very little in the way of danceable sounds that won't find some success with people. We're hard-wired to respond to repetitive percussive noises.

But Rap's ugly, and having seen it performed and heard plenty of it on disk I don't think you can say I'm uninformed or misinformed.

Bottom line: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE THUMP.

You may disagree, but there's no "informed" issue in play here. Eminem is just one of the more egregiously awful practitioners. I included him primarily to debunk the "black" issue that this thread started with.

With regard to 5-year-olds, you nailed that one. I concur completely that a 5-year-old can't make a decent rap song. Quod erat demonstrandum.

You call my views close-minded. Naah, I don't think so. I just have some standards, is all: one of those is for me to take an artist seriously, that artist needs to be competent, to have a capable grasp of their craft. I am unmoved by experimental art, if by that we mean the floundering around of an artist on a journey toward some sort of mastery of their medium.

There is, I suppose, some academic or anthropological interest in work where artists are still trying to figure out how to communicate what they want to say through their art. But frankly, there's enough people who've traveled that tough path already and I'd rather pay attention to them. I'll go to an 6th-grade piano recital knowing I'm going to probably here some novel new sounds, but I won't confuse that novelty with brilliance.

Sometimes, talent trumps craft, or an individual's talent redefines competence. But it ain't ever happened in Rap. On the contrary, too often, people get such a rush out of creating itself that they confuse the intensity of their process with some meaningful result. "I feel, therefore you MUST be moved."

Naahh. Still ugly noise to me. I'll check back when it grows up. Sadly, some "art forms" never grow up. Rap is one.

[Karenina]

69. How about that Christo

and his installation in Central Park, eh?

[MrModerate]

74. Haven't seen it. Have seen others (Rifle Gap and CA Coast)

Claptrap.

[donheld]

34. No more callers, we have a winner

I'm afraid there's far to much of that, yes even at DU.

[NashVegas]

39. Have Some Sympathy for the Music Snobs, K?

I think you'll agree that most opinionated music lovers (I'd love to see demo breakdowns by age) on DU are people who grew up with and love rock music. Rock music's main appeal (at least the promotional focus) is/was to 18-34 year old white males. A generally agressive bunch.

Anyhooo .. about the more opinionated ones. Some of them, when you consider the size of their collections, would be considered experts. Nothing gets an expert (on any subject) more uptight than an aspect of that subject they know little or nothing about.

So you've got a recipe for arguments.

Seriously, I would try not to be bothered by it.

As one of the afore-mentioned music snobs (although I'm female) about the only things negative I'd say about rap are:

1. I can semi-go along with the 'it's not music' argument IF the rap artists in question are not using any honest-to-goodness vibrating instruments. It's not just the sound that makes music, it's the vibration. Although a rapper is vibrating his/her larynx, there's not much variation in the vibe if one is 100% speaking, not singing. Otherwise, one could simply say "all speech is music." Is it?

2. As Morrissey put it so well: "hang the DJ / because the music that he plays / says nothing to me about my life." Most rappers fit in that category for me. Not a big deal.

[Maestro]

41. I'm not sure what brought this up, but

music is like politics or religion...everyone has an opinion about it. Rap is not my preferred music, but I see some very good acts out there. In fact, when rap first hit, I was all over it; especially Run DMC.

The people who criticize it are poeple who think that all rap incites violence or whatever. My preferred music genre, extreme heavy metal, is often attacked for being satanic, promoting drug use, violence, what have you.

Anyhow, to get back to your comments, I don't believe that many DUers have attacked it. They might not really like rap, but that's cool. I really haven't noticed the need to come out and say DU is too white because too many attack rap.

I wonder how many here listen to Lamb of God, Shadows Fall, Static-X, Zao, Atreyu, etc...

Now if you excuse me I am going to listen to some Beasties and a collaboration between Moby and Chuck D. :)

[Karenina]

42. Hmmm...

Ya know, I pick-up that you're talking about several different things here, some of which only tangentially related.

Yes, DU is an OVERWHELMINGLY white board.

That some feel comfortable barging into a thread about rap and dissing it in a particular, rather than passing it by has to do with a dynamic that is separate from being a DUer.

This could be fun... :evilgrin:

[DS1]

44. Nah. Bad rap is too bad for DU. Case in point. 3rd Bass.

Very white, very bad.

[WI_DEM]

45. It's not my cup of tea

I find rap music, on the whole, too suggestive and violent and prophane for my tastes. As to what others want to listen to, I couldn't give a damn. I also hate censorship. But as to your point, yes...DU is elitist. We are much more to the left than the country as a whole--and to the far left of the Democratic party. I think we represent a portion of the party--the anti-war, activist, hug-a-tree left, but I honestly don't feel that our views are necessarily the same as the union guy who works in a factory and has been voting democratic all his life and so was his dad before him because his dad idolized FDR. Many Democrats are also christian and go to church every week==for instance many of our African-American and Latino brothers and sisters are avid church-goers and they are the backbone of the Democratic Party. But on DU, while there are Christian voices heard--I sometimes get the feeling that most people who actively post are non-Christian, maybe secular humanists. DU is a great place and it represents a wing of the party which I appreciate, but I don't think it accurately represents whole spectrum of the Democratic party. When viewpoints which counter the belief of many here are posted it is often attacked by some as being "Bush lite" or something like that.

[Stop_the_War]

47. I love hip-hop.......

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

51. Race has nothing to do with it

I grew up listening to Mozart, Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, the Beatles, Verdi, Puccini, Nat King Cole, Louis Armstrong, and many others representing a wide spectrum of musical styles and races. When I listen to music, I do not think about the race of the musician.

As it happens, I despise mainstream rap, which I define as the one people play on boomboxes (I live here in NYC and people walk around blasting it from radios) and which gets played on the various urban radio stations available in the NYC area, as well as the kind of rap that mostly (but not totally) permeates the top 40 charts.

I find that this rap exhalts the gangsta lifestyle, the objectification of women, bling bling etc. I find it very sad that many in the black, latino and even white communities try to imitate this lifestyle, instead of getting an education. It speaks volumes when a rap "artist" gains street cred by how many bullet wounds he has... That's a lifestyle I would not want to imitate, regardless of race. I'm sure rapping is hard to do well, but so is playing the Pan flute, but I do not particularly like either music.

I also do not like all the various latin music types, but it's my personal preference. And I abhor country music with a passion. I also hate very heavy metal.

Occasionally, I will find something in all genres that I like, but, again, my preferences have nothing to do with the race of the performers. I can't stand the teen pop stuff out there not the latest bimbo actress-turned-singer music. Again, race has nothing to do with it.

I do dislike people who feel pressured into having to like a particular genre of music because of their race. I've had discussions with young black men who only listened to rap because they thought rap was the only "black" music out there. Have they never heard of the great talented black musicians of all genres out there? The same goes with white people who are pressured to like country music (I met quite a few of these as well).

[mondo joe]

57. Indeed. Many who dislike rap LOVE a lot of black performers and styles

Guess if you like Charles Mingus but not Tupac it's because Tupac is black.

[Kahuna]

64. Absolutely! A lot of DUers like black artists and say so over and over...

They love the Motown Sound, other soul and pop artists prior to hip hop, and great jazz artists. I made a comment to someone yesterday about what has happened to music during the last twenty years. I consider the music put out for the last twenty years appalling. Whether it's rock or hip hop; I think it just generally stinks. I observed that "good" music peaked in the sixties and early seventies. "White" music and "Black" music. It was finished. It was done. You cannot improved upon perfection. I also observed that my generation appreciated and revered the good music from our parent's generation. The reason the same can't be said today is for a reason. the music stinks.

[JimmyJazz]

52. I love rap music and hip hop - at least the good stuff

just like with all other genres of music, some is really high quality and some is just plain old bad.

But, to go slightly off point - there are a lot of reggae/dub fans on this board and that music is predominately performed by black artists. I don't think we are "too white" - although I can see why you might think that based on some of the topics discussed in the lounge!

Give us a chance and see what happens.

[NightTrain]

78. I knew there was something I liked about you!

;)

[silverpatronus]

98. man, i haven't heard it referred to as 'dub' since high school...

bringing back some memories there for me jimmyjazz...

it's 'dancehall' now...*sigh*

[JimmyJazz]

101. Sorry - I'm old school!

You know - Tapper Zukie, Althea & Donna, Mickey Dread :hi:

[mondo joe]

56. Is Heavy Metal too White for DU?

What doo you think?

The truth is heavy metal is very white music but not a lot of people on DU like it. Must be because it's too white.

[Karenina]

67. Some years back

I toured with a German heavy metal band. Wonder how many oboists can make THAT claim! It was SOOOOOO fun! I wore earplugs.

[Samurai_Writer]

58. I like rap, and I'm mixed race

I also like alternative, metal, classic rock, blues, jazz, big band, classical, celtic, and more. I do think there is good rap and bad rap, just like there's good rock and bad rock, or any other genre of music. Has nothing to do with race.

Peace,
Bella
who has posters of Charlie Parker, Miles David, BB King, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, David Bowie and The Doors hanging up in her music room/guest bedroom.

[Champ]

60. I'm a big rap fan

But 95% of it is pure garbage, can't blame them for not really caring for rap music when all they hear is rappers singing about making money and picking up "bitches".

[Kahuna]

63. Oh Please. White people aren't the only ones who hold the

opinion you expressed about rap music. I'm black and am on record as saying the same things. If one insists on referring to rap as "music" than at least admit that it is very bad "music." :P

Also, I can attest that many younger, white DUers appreciate rap very much and stick up for it all the time. Maybe it's a generation thang. I certainly don't think it's a black/white thang. Even if you think it is, rap is very urban, and maybe white people just can't connect with an urban message. No biggie either way.

[Seabiscuit]

76. Thank you - it's not a race thing, it's a generation thing.

I think many younger people here think "rap" must be cool (because there's so much of it), so they listen to it and support it. Those of us who have been walking the planet a lot longer and listening to all styles of music, whether black, white, latino or Indian (e.g. Ravi Shankar) don't hear race when we listen, we hear music - good or bad music. And to most of us, "rap" is, as you say "very bad 'music'". So is hip-hop, boy bands, bubble-gum pop, heavy metal, and 90% of today's version of country music. Race has absolutely, I'll say it again ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it. Playing the race card to justify one's preference for "rap" or any other form of entertainment is pure ignorant hypocrisy.

[Karenina]

88. Seabuiscuit, we're NOT talking music

artistic or production values here. Please read through this thread in its entirity again and get back to me.

[Seabiscuit]

94. What a ridiculous statement.

I was responding specifically to a poster who identified himself as black, who addressed the "black/white" discussion as well as the "rap" aspect and "music" aspect of this thread.

For your information, the title to the post to this thread is "Is Rap Too Black for DU", and goes on to state in the body of the post: "But to come out and say it is not music or bad art or bad poetry and follow it up with something like "there I said it" is really no different than the people who criticized Elvis or the Beatles back in the day."

So yes, this is just another thread about "rap" - whether or not it's "music" - and really belongs in yesterday's thread about "rap" because it quotes directly from it and also involves the race card diversion. So don't tell me this thread has nothing to do with music.

[Karenina]

102. The "race card" is really

a tiresome diversion, don't you think?

[pinellas]

66. I like hiphop better than rap

But I like what I guess would be considered 'old school' rap - the current genre is what I term 'bubblegum' - highly commercialised & superficial/shallow - directed @ teen audiences/mentalities & commercial top 40 radio.


I agree w/ those saying it's little to do w/ skin color - it's EVERYTHING to do w/ age & sensibilities.

I'm 45 BTW.


& I'm wondering what brought on the question - something in particular, it appears???

**But to come out and say it is not music or bad art or bad poetry and follow it up with something like "there I said it".... **

FWIW, there's a category of person I've run into - they're the 1s who say/repeat that kind of shit coz they just don't know any better.Basically, it's boorish/obnoxious/loutish/unenlightened behaviour - sez more about them than anything else.

Somebody told me Duke Ellington said there're just 2 kinds of music - good & bad;-)

[RagingInMiami]

71. what's the difference between rap and hip hop?

[pinellas]

97. That's a weird question....

....considering your topic post - do you really not know???

[HamdenRice]

70. Scientifically proven: DU is 95.4 % white

Since one of the themes of this thread is how predominantly white DU is, I thought it might help to once again shamelessly shill for my random sample estimate of DU's racial composition.

Best estimate is that it is about 95.4 % white, although I haven't calculated the margin of error, with African Americans and Asians each making up about 1.4% and Hispanics constituting about 1.8%.

That is very, very white compared to the Democratic Party, the progressive movement or for that matter, the US population.

And it shows in the political and cultural debates, and predominant perspectives on these boards, and the lack of tolerance of both posters and moderators for racially challenging discussion; and these in turn, ensure it is probably not going to get any more diverse.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=258&topic_id=129&mesg_id=129

[tigereye]

96. why do you persist in such a negative and baiting view?

it would be much more productive to have an acutal dialogue about race and racism. A discussion. To lambaste DU for being more Caucasian than African- American ( if that is in fact true) does nothing to enhance the discussion.

[Placebo]

106. You said it.

:thumbsup:

[Seabiscuit]

73. Oh, jeesh... not another "rap" thread.

"rap" has nothing to do with "black" vs. "white". It's an entertainment style that has alienated scores of black musicians and black music lovers, many of whom refuse to call it "music".

This post doesn't deserve its own thread - you should have posted it in yesterday's thread about "rap" because it addresses the exact language of the post which began it.

[BlueJazz]

75. Man..I don't know. I play with a lot of Black Musicians in ..

..various settings and VERY few of them have any use what-so-ever for Rap. They are usually the first ones to comment about how they think it Sucks....
As I said...I don't know.

[Karenina]

90. Mostly, I have no use for rap.

Usually to get me to listen, I have to be shown a text first.

What do you play?

[curse10]

77. yes. I'm personally appalled by what I think is thinly veiled racism

But I've learned to put those people on ignore. Saying rap isn't music or that it's crap or that most of it is crap is just a new form of accepted bigotry. These people just want a justification for publicly being able to disparage a certain race.

I always like these threads- it allows me to find new people to put on ignore.

[Kahuna]

79. Well, me and most blacks I know don't like metal , punk and CW. Does..

that make me racist? No it does not. I just prefer the really good music (R&B, rock, pop, and jazz) that preceded rap, hip hop, metal and punk.

[ProfessorGAC]

82. Good Call, Kahuna

I know some very good musicians, that are enamoured with Delta and Chicago blues, but absolutely do not get Jazz. How could they be racists? They revere black musicians, but don't like jazz. That's the opposite of racism. It's ALL about the music and nothing to do with race.

Thanks for chiming in as a voice of reason on this thread.
The Professor

[curse10]

85. again, there's a difference between not liking something

and showing so little respect for a developed art form that it borders on outright racism.

[Karenina]

92. Na, Du Curse10...

Borders on??? BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Read my post #72 and tell me if we're really discussing "music."

[curse10]

83. there's a difference between not liking something

and saying something isn't art or music. I'm not a fan of the Beatles, doesn't mean I don't recognize it's music.

If someone doesn't like rap, okay. But to then preface it with the comment that they don't like it because it's "not music" is bullshit and ignorant.

[Kahuna]

86. How do the Beatles fit into this discussion? Their product was..

was not only, clearly "music," but was/is music at its best and appreciated and covered across genres. Not even apples and oranges, my friend.

For the record, every song the Beatles did was altogether different and more advanced musically than their own songs that preceded it. That's why they are considered, masters. Eap sounds like recycled noise to me. Nothing new. Nothing original. And so monotonous I can't stand it. There are rare exceptions though. And most of those include sung lyrics.

[curse10]

95. then, my friend, you aren't listening

and I used the Beatles to prove a point. Every tom, dick, and harry loves the fucking beatles. I don't. And I'm not afraid to say, "I don't like the Beatles." That doesn't meant that I'm so ignorant that I don't recognize what they've done in the music world-- they appeal to the masses, and that's hard to do.

Rap, on the other hand, I tend to like. Not all of it, but a great deal. Missy Eliot is a genius. Wylcef Jean is an innovator. Wu Tang rocks my fucking world. And Count Machuki started it all (way back in Kingston).

[ProfessorGAC]

81. Pretty Broad Brush There!

Especially since you have no proof. Your post indicates that it's all speculation on your part, and now that i have said i tend not to care for it, it's because of race! That's preposterous.
The Professor

[curse10]

84. no, if you read the post

you will note that I never said, "if you don't like rap you are racist." my post said, that if you are ignorant enough to say rap isn't worthy of the label "music" or "art" then you are a racist.

[Karenina]

91. "Thinly veiled???"

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[JI7]

93. i'm not white and i don't like rap music

[DrWeird]

104. Indeed, it is.

Bunch of closet racists, IMHO.

Sure, there's a few people out there who have listened to it critically and decided they honestly didn't like it. But they're few and far between.

Look at how popular "Mosh" was for awhile. There's been politically active rap music for years, but suddenly a white guy does it and everybody falls over themselves saying "oh, I guess this rap music isn't all that bad."

[eyepaddle]

107. My thoughts:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2669602

[d_b]

108. I enjoy certain artists..

like Gravediggaz :)