What's so wrong with an athlete thanking God or pointing to the sky?

[mark414]

i posted this in another thread in response to someone making fun of TO (terrell owens...of the philadelphia eagles...football...for you sports adverse) but i see a lot of mentions of it so figured i'd start a new thread...

anyways,

i'm not a religious person so maybe that's why i don't get offended

but if you believe in God and that the talents and skills you have are God given, then who else are you going to thank?

rapper mos def said this on his new album, and like i said i'm not religious but i still found it really damn powerful:

"If you see or hear goodness from me
Then that goodness is from The Creator
You should be thankful to The Creator for all of that
'Cause I'm not the architect of that
I'm only the...the recipient
If you see weakness or shortcoming in me
It's from my own weakness or shortcoming
And I ask The Creator and the people to forgive me for that"

i'd imagine that that's the reason players don't blame God for their losses

i mean, if he's omnipotent and omniscient, why COULDN'T he watch a football game while attending to other matters? wouldn't he be a limited God were he unable to do that? isn't he supposed to be able to be everywhere all the time?

[UdoKier]

1. It's not offensive.

But the notion that God would play favorites or even give a damn about something as unbelievably trivial as a ball game is pretty ridiculous.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. I don't think that's how it works.

I think it's more like "thank you God for blessing me with the gifts and talent i used to win this game and helping me play my best." Or something like that.

[mark414]

8. yeah that's what i was saying...

sometimes i wonder if people even read threads before coming up with a response...

[UdoKier]

14. I did read the Original Post.

And I stand behind my reply. I understand the logic, but it's just a game, and I don't think God, if there is one, would be all that concerned about whether or not someone has enough skill or talent to make obscene amounts of money for playing a game. There are people starving and being bombed. Any God who's attentions were on some ball game rather than helping kids like Ali Abbas.



Is not worth worshipping.

[mark414]

16. but...you don't understand the logic then

if God is all knowing and all powerful and is capable of being everywhere, all the time, then there is no reason He can't do both.

[UdoKier]

17. Yeah, but that would mean...

That God is constantly helping out spoiled ball players and forsaking the millions of starving and bombed kids, and I refuse to believe in a God like that.

Either God is non-interventionist, and lets events run their course naturally, or there is no God.

I have tended to believe in the latter since I was around 12 years old, but the former is a possibility.

[mark414]

26. that's not what i said

what i said was,

if He is all powerful than he has the ability to be in both places at once

what i am not saying is that God causes one team to win over the other.

what I was saying is that if players believe that their talent is God given, then what's so wrong with thanking him.

you are distorting my original post and turning this into an argument for or against the existence of God. that is not what i intended.

[UdoKier]

34. As I said. I don't care what ball players do.

They can do a jig, pray, scream at the crowd - totally irrelevant to me.

It just seems rather self-obsessed to believe that God takes such an interest in such things - not saying people aren't entitled to believe that way.

But for me, things need to make sense, and for me, a universe where God makes sure that my rich, spoiled ass can make a goal while he ignores desparate people all around the world is simply impossible to accept. The fundie mindset is that there must be something wrong with those "others", and that that justifies their fate - and I can't accept that either.

[mark414]

38. ok. i understand what you're saying. but you're still not understanding

i am not saying that God cares about the outcome of the game. i am not saying that God has a favorite football team.

what i AM saying is that if a player does well, and that player believes that HIS talents are God given, regardless of the beliefs of the other players, then what's wrong with him thanking God for the talents that said player believes that God has given him?

do you know how to read?

[UdoKier]

54. I'm going to ignore that insult and move on.

I had a reply, but this is already way too serious for the Lounge. Enjoy your thread, whatever the point may be.

[Misunderestimator]

56. It has always been my impression when athletes do this that they believe

that they deserved to win because of their faith in god, and I find it obnoxious. Sure some athletes feel that their extraordinary human talent (/sarcasm) comes from god and therefore they are thanking him, but it takes a certain amount of self-centeredness to think that playing football is a god-given noble pursuit to which the god-given-talent person should be devoting his/her life.

I prefer religious people who worship privately or with other religious people and not in a stadium with hundreds of thousands of people of all religions/non-religions as well as millions of viewers. It's showing off one's faith, to my eyes, when one does that.

[vi5]

35. But then if he is in both places at once...

Why is that horrible thing happening in the other place?

Even if you take the approach that god only gets involved with the gifts he gives at birth, it still opens up a lot of questions which nobody seems to be able to answer.

[mark414]

39. ah yes

that opens a whole new can of worms, namely, the problem of evil...and given the tendency of many on here to viciously debate issues of religion, i'd rather leave that one for my philosophy class...

[vi5]

42. Let's say for the sake of conversation....

That player does believe that his talent is god given to him from birth.
Not that god cares about him more.
Not that god dislikes the other team.
Not that god cares more about a game than the victims of a war, famine, or poverty.

Let's assume that he simply believes his talent is a gift from god, and he is simply thanking him for giving him that talent (am I reading you correctly on this?)

In that case there is nothing wrong with him or her doing that.
There is also nothing wrong with me choosing to inquire as to whether he believes that god is happy with him using that talent to bathe himself in luxury.

If that player is using the rewards of his gifts from god to give back to the world and his community (say like Minute Bole (sp?)) then he should have no problem with the answer to that question.

[mark414]

43. yes! someone gets it!

that's precisely what i was saying

(p.s. it's Manute Bol)

[vi5]

49. But then you should see why it's offensive to some....

.....ya know? I thought that was the original question. I think I tried to answer it as rationally as possible.

Personally I'm an atheist so it's not offensive to me as a christian or religious person. Just as a human.

[mark414]

51. yeah i understand

i just didn't want this to turn into a debate on theism, which it kind of has...

eh oh well

[jpgray]

36. So this God also is a "fuck that guy, he doesn't get talent" God? (nt)

[tjwash]

57. Good point, also did "God" invent sports?

I'm sure "God" was having a grand old time as they were slaughtering Christians for the amusement of the populace in ancient Rome also, because it's obvious he favored the gladiators by granting them all the talent, and weapons, and armor.

[vi5]

33. Does that mean that he didn't care about the billions of others

who don't make millions playing sports? Otherwise why didn't he bless them as well? And do you think he's pissed that these guys are using these talents which he deemed important to give to them at birth to keep themselves swathed in luxury?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

41. The athlete believes it. He's not asking you to. eom

[vi5]

47. Well, if he has a right to believe that don't I have a right....

to be offended by it? Bush may truly believe that god blessed him and not thouse tens of thousands of dead iraqis. It doesn't make it any less offensive to me simply because he may be sincere about it.

And it isn't any less offensive to me that a ball player thinks god chose him to have these skills with which to figuratively and literally pay the bills, while ignoring the pain and suffering of others.

The original poster asked why it's offensive. People answered the question. I'm not sure what the controversy is here.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

50. You certainly do.

See my earlier post here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2675232&mesg_id=2675423&page=

[LeftCoast]

2. Not a sports fan

but it constantly amazes me that (some) people ACTUALLY believe that God wants THEIR sports team to win as opposed to the other team. What, did that other team piss God off or something? :eyes:

[vi5]

3. That's fine, if he's involved enough to get credit for the good...

..then he's also got to take accountability for the bad. Which is where a lot of these same folks want to have it both ways. All the endless amounts of horror and garbage that happen in our world day in and day out but that's not god's fault. But if an athelete scores a touchdown or a rapper can rhyme particularly well, that's god's hand at work.

If there is a god and he has time to watch a football game but not to stop a woman from torturing or starving her own children then he's got some 'splaining to do.

[rfranklin]

4. Mrs. God told me that...

Mr. God is a lazy S.O.B. who sits around the house watching the sports channels 24/7 swilling beer and occasionally waving his hand to grant victory to any team that strikes his fancy.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

6. Excuse me, but those verses are HORRIBLE

I read NOTHING good in them. Nothing.

If what I do wrong is my own fault (and it is), what I do right is my own merit. Whoever tells me otherwise will get the Official Vice Presidential Reply®.

[Technowitch]

7. Didn't that Jesus dude allegedly say something about...

...how it's better to pray quietly in the solitude of one's room, than to go yelling it in the public square?

There is something unseemly and prideful about the person making a huge public display, during a mere sporting contest.

It's little betther than dancing around and taunting, "God loves me better than he does you!"

That's the problem.

And as another reader posted, it's absurd to think that some omnipotent cloud being actually CARES whether the Patriots or the Eagles won this year's Superbowl.

I should think that with war, poverty, disease, tsunamis and other disasters, both natural and man-made, a deity would have bigger concerns.

[mark414]

9. that's not what i said...

[Bluebear]

10. You could thank your god silently

in a dignified prayer rather than making a big show out of it. I am not religious either but, for instance, Jesus said "But when you pray go into your room and pray. Pray to your Father in silence. Do NOT magnify your words, for your Father knows before you ask Him."

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. Yeah but...that was in regards to the Pharisees

Or, people like Bush who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Specifically it refers to Jesus talking about a Pharisee who walks loudly into a temple and starts praying something along the lines of "Thank you God that I'm not a sinful jerk like those other people. Im so great, blah blah blah". If people want to thank God, Buddah, Zeus, Shiva, Allah, their mother, their aunt, or their cousin Bill, I don't really care, it's their business and it is their right. I only care if they try and impose it on me or others.

After all, you also have the Bible and the story of the ten lepers. Only one thanked God and that wasn't any good.

[Bluebear]

19. Of course it's their right

I cited the above by memory...hey something took from Lutheran schools :)

Here's another translation

>>And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

I interpret that as even Pharisee-like behavior. Jesus is saying prayer should be a personal, more intimate experience. Waving your finger to the sky because you hit a triple always struck me as a little gauche but that's just me I guess.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

24. Nah, I see what you're saying.

But again, a lot of people are comparing it to prayer in public schools, and it's not at all. One is forcing prayer on others and one is not. When an athlete thanks God, he doesn't say "now say a prayer of thanks to God because I scored a touchdown or we'll lose our next game".

[saltpoint]

11. Then what's wrong with a little prayer in schools for 1st graders?

Or third graders, too?

How about I thank Jesus for a tax break as I walk out of H&R Block this year?

---
That's why. It's ridiculous. Receivers as good or better than Terrell make great catches and do not need to invoke a deity for the accomplishment.

I credit the brain and brawn of an athlete, not his or her belief in a magical interventionist.

[mark414]

12. um

you are comparing two completely different things

and this wasn't meant to be a discussion on whether or not God was responsible for TO's skills...I don't really believe in God either so I don't think that's the case

the basic question i wanted answered was, what's wrong with it? if God can be all places at all times (so believers say) then why can't he be watching over an abused woman and a football game?

[saltpoint]

20. Umm right back. Athletes thanking Jesus for their --

-- touchdowns is ridiculous.

If a first grade teacher is so inclined, then his or her rationale for prayer in the classroom is just as public a display, albeit of a private sentiment.

I'm not blurring the lines. Terrell is.

[mark414]

22. no

one is a football game

the other is a public taxpayer funded school

big difference

[saltpoint]

27. Both are public displays.

In Green Bay, the people own the stadium.

In both instances, it's free to do if you or Terrell want to go ahead and do it.

But it looks ridiculous just the same.

Terrell's reception and subsequent praise to Jesus would appear to suggest that the defending receiver is not in the Lord's favor. I find that scenario to be ridiculous.

I honor the athletes' accomplishments, pure and simple.

[MissMillie]

15. absolutely nothing wrong with it

let people believe what they want to believe.... worship how they want to worship. So long as no one is hurt.... live and let live.

[KurtNYC]

18. There is a kind of humility to it

Better than them pointing to themselves or laughing in their beaten opponents' faces. But personally I don't believe that God decides sporting contests.

[stopbush]

21. Hmmm. Looks like TO is saying that his sky-god is responsible

for the TD that the TEAM scored. What if the QB who threw the pass is an atheist? What if the guy who threw the block that sprung him free worships the god of the underworld?

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my thoughts around the idea of a sky-god for these prancing fools to direct their ego-centric antics towards in front of millions of people.

BTW - if he drops the pass in the endzone, does he flip the bird at the sky-god or what?

[Padraig18]

23. Not a thing in the world wrong with it, IMO. n/t

[arwalden]

25. Talent On Loan From God....

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

29. Talk about your empty showboating!

Besides, his talent is on loan from drugs!

[jpgray]

28. I've thought a good Onion headline would be "God Hates Losing Sports Team"

:)

[saltpoint]

44. LOL. Perfect.

[mark414]

45. actually that sounds vaguely familiar...

i think it's already been done...in the onion that is

[jpgray]

52. I still think your argument is a lot of hot air

Let's assume God just doles out talent at birth and then washes his hands of it. First, if he gives to some and not to others, you have favoritism right there. You may claim that God gives talent to all, it's just that some do not make use of it. In that case he gives worthless talents to some and very marketable talents to others. Further, if the God-given talent doesn't come with a guarantee that it will be developed properly by the recipient, does this development stem totally from human decisions, or God-like influence? If God-like influence, then you have that favoritism. If it's human decisions that make the difference, wouldn't God have to dole out the talent for making the right decisions to develop the talent? Or is that a humankind-generated talent? We're back to favoritism again.

[terrya]

30. Hey, whatever floats your boat, I guess.

I just think it's ridiculous to pretend that "God", if he exists, would care about a football game in a nation, on one small, tiny planet in the infinite vastness of the universe...

But again, if someone wants to get their rocks off doing this, to each his own and all of that.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

31. It's not a matter of wheter one agrees with the athlete..

they have the right to say what they want and thank who they will, and one has the right to think and say whatever they like about that action or the player that does that action.

However, comparing it to prayer in public schools? That's ridiculous. And it's fodder for the fundies "oh you're trying to take gawd away from us". It's an insult to the real cause of seperation of church and state.

[mark414]

32. does anyone actually read these threads before they reply?

apparently not...

[Bluebear]

37. Could you tell us what reply you were aiming for?

I see a lot of pretty good discussion?

[mark414]

40. from an above post...

i am not saying that God cares about the outcome of the game. i am not saying that God has a favorite football team.

what i AM saying is that if a player does well, and that player believes that HIS talents are God given, regardless of the beliefs of the other players, then what's wrong with him thanking God for the talents that said player believes that God has given him?

i'm basically just looking for a simple yes or no answer. your response was good, about the prayer being a private thing. that's the kind of answer i was looking for, not statements like "i find it ridiculous that god cares about sports." that's not what i said.

[Bluebear]

48. Cool. In fairness, a lot of athletes do say after a win....

that God was "on their side today", I think that leaves an impression on many of the respondants.

[NYYFan]

46. Who are we to say that some of them probably don't mean it

Although, sometimes their actions negate anything god-like about them. Sometimes I just wonder.

:shrug:

[progmom]

53. I see what you're saying.

If a person believes that they owe their existence to God, then thanking God for moments that fill them with joy is absolutely appropriate.

Idiots like Bush and Ashcroft and Falwell have taken all the joy out of belief for so many people, and for that I am truly disappointed.

[Misunderestimator]

55. It's akin to one side or the other thanking god for winning a war to me...

or thanking god for winning the lottery... Seems a bit selfish to assume that god wanted you to have such good fortune and no one else.
Stupid, senseless things to give thanks for is all... and why would god bestow one team with a win and not the other... didn't god give humans the ability to enhance their talents and be the best they can be? Why would something as insignificant in the scheme of things as a football game be cause for thanking god for having allowed you to win over others. Do those who do this think they are more deserving because of their belief in god? And, lastly, why doesn't Notre Dame win all their games... they have "Touchdown Jesus" looking over their stadium, after all.
Then again, I don't care either... I just roll my eyes.

On edit... Because you will ask, yes, I read your OP. My other response on the selfish nature of an athlete's public worshipping is in post #56.