A post I just made to a gung ho know it all young right winger...

[BikeWriter]

A post I just made to a gung ho know it all young right winger...
How could you say you understand the draft better than I? Where were you when I got a draft notice in 1965? Where were you on October 1, 1967 when I was ordered to duty in the Republic of South VietNam?
I suppose you haven't heard, pal, Iraq still has rape rooms and torture chambers, along with the ones at Gitmo in Cuba! The majority of the Iraqi people don't want us there!
Don't tell me how glorious combat is and "you know you're right." You don't know **** about war until you've stood downwind of pallets of body bags of your Friends stacked like cordwood on a hot runway!
Get real, bush is blowing up buses, schools and churches. They're filled with brown people so you don't care! Grow up, get a life, and for **** sake, get educated!
One final word, the brave people now fighting the oppressors to win their freedom by forcing them away? Bush calls them insurgents, and they're fighting our illegal occupation of Iraq!

Edited to add the url to the thread. :)
http://mothersagainstthedraft.org/forum/showthread.php?p=166#post166

[Jack Rabbit]

1. Well said

Hold your head high, sir. I salute you.

[BikeWriter]

9. Thank you, Jack Rabbit. That young RWer was pompous as hell...

He doesn't know they'll use him and discard him. :(

[Blue_State_Elitist]

2. I am only 17

and I agree with you, but am I too young to have an opinion on the subject?


Win with the facts, not with personal judgements.

[jpgray]

4. Expert opinion is more respected

That doesn't mean that the expert is right while a layman with the same opinion is wrong, though.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

6. I agree

that expert opinion is more respected, but it's wrong to debate someone on the other side by simply claiming superiority. Granted, the opinions of the poster are correct and he probably does know more about the subject, but he should just beat down the freep with his superior knowledge and facts, not attack him personally.

[jpgray]

8. I thought it was fine up until "grow up" "get a life" etc.

And even that is pretty tame by message board standards. :D As for the preceding statements, using a slightly snarky way to point out your experience doesn't bother me, I suppose.

[jswordy]

14. Uh, the poster DID TIME IN VIETNAM. He was IN HOT WAR!

HOT WAR means shit raining down on you while people are falling, bleeding and screaming and dying around you and you are frickin' working your ass off not to join them, but essentially the rain of death is completely out of your control.

Therefore the poster does not have to display "a superior knowledge and facts." HE WAS THERE. The young freeper, like so many chickenshits...er, chickenhawks...has no IDEA what war is really about or like, or what would constitute a just war.

Think of it this way, Blue_State_Elitist. If you had to have open heart surgery, would you want the surgeon who had actual experience doing lots of them successfully? Or the one who could talk about his superior knowledge and facts?

Hey, in my book, if someone was actually IN BATTLE, they have a credibility in talking about the subject of war that is beyond reproach.

My advice to you is to find some folks who were on the ground as grunts in Desert Storm, or who have come back from Iraq this time. Let them talk to you about their "superiority." And listen. You'll learn a lot, and I'll just bet by the second or third story they tell you, knowledge and facts won't be what's on your mind.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

22. You're not going to change anything by attacking someone personally.

While I respect the poster for what he has been through, I still feel it is incorrect to attack another personally in order to win an argument. It would be far more impressive for a veteran to win a debate with just solid facts and the knowledge they have than to claim superiority through service. It's the same way that the freeps argue, "Son, when you get a full time job like me, you'll change your mind about taxes and welfare."


Really, if you want to take your argument into politics you could say that since Bush has been the president and we haven't, we have no right to question anything he does because he DID TIME IN THE WHITEHOUSE.

[BikeWriter]

26. LOL! Fine, you let 14 year olds tell you you don't know jack shit...

...I'm not going to! ;)

[Blue_State_Elitist]

29. I didn't say I didn't find your post entertaining

or a good ass kicking... haha

[BikeWriter]

31. LOL! Thank you! ;-)

[jswordy]

28. yer young, I'm not. Let me say that yer not going to change...

...anything in this environment no matter what you do. Anyone who thinks minds are going to be changed by argument in this current environment is delusional.

Personally, I prefer a little more respect for those who had to go to war because our nation told them to do so. That does not mean I follow them blindly. It means I respect what they have to say. That distinction is not present in your argument.

I think that to equate wartime experience with Bush's experience in the White House is disingenuous and a non-starter. Had Bush had actual wartime expereince, it is my firm belief that he would not have done what he did in Iraq so blithely. Hell, had ANY OF THEM had wartime experience. It is easy to sell another man's life short and cheaply when you have no experience of how dear the price is.

You are entitled to your opinions. I stand by my previous post.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

32. Lots of Veterans

support the current war in Iraq. Lots of non Veterans don't support it.

In debate and politics, it's not about who you are or where you've been, it's about what information you have and how well you can present that information.


Cheers

[BikeWriter]

36. One of my favorite quotes:

"War hath no fury like a non-combatant."
--C.E.Montague, British WWI combat veteran, 1922

[BikeWriter]

34. Thank you, JS. Yes. dumsfeld and others ignored and ridiculed...

General Shinseki when he said General Zinni's war plan was correct in number of troops needed on the ground in Iraq. Now they know differently. Their arrogance has cost hundreds of lives and billions of dollars.


"War hath no fury like a non-combatant."--C.E.Montague, British WWI combat veteran, 1922

[BikeWriter]

23. Uh, this is a 14 year old telling me about patriotism, the draft and war..

I respect everyone's opinion, but he's talking out of turn... :-(

[jpgray]

25. Obviously, your opinion should be more respected than his

You have experiences to back up your assertions.

[BikeWriter]

27. Thank you, JP. :-)

[BikeWriter]

10. You surely have a right to your opinion, but this child was talking down..

...to people who'd been through a draft and war!

[leftynyc]

3. How young? Ready to enlist? (eom)

[BikeWriter]

11. He claims to be 14. Here's an url to the discussion...

http://mothersagainstthedraft.org/forum/showthread.php?p=166#post166

[Jack Rabbit]

13. That sets the context

I'd say Mr. Freedom is a youngster with a lot to learn. I hope he develops an open mind.

[patrice]

5. Good response!

They're fighting our illegal occupation and Cheney's push to re-start the war between Iran and Iraq through the Sunnis (right? - I get them a little mixed up - but they've got tribal connections to people in Iran) as an excuse for the next step in Project for A New American Century, which is basically an attempt to ground the military industrial complex in the middle class jobs base by means of political support from "middle class" war profiteers, i.e. war jobs through war contractors working now in Iraq, later in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and ultimately Egypt.

I've been unemployed for two years, and there has been an increase in numbers of links to certain kinds of jobs at Ft. Leavenworth, how many of these jobs there are, and the increase in government overall under the Bush administration, illustrates a form of jobs fascism Socialism that supports Republican power.

[BikeWriter]

12. Thank you, Patrice! Yes, the increase in government sure isn't...

...conservative, is it?

[patrice]

17. It scares me that Bush et al are purposefully trying to break the country.

On the principle that pulling yourself up by the boot straps is good for everyone. They will screw things up on purpose and then move to some private island somewhere, while we fight each other for the crumbs. That is why the deficit doesn't matter to those in power; they want revolution themselves. Their own kind of revolution, with way less power in the federal branches. This is part of the polish on the poisonous apple they offer to the South in the Republican Southern Strategy.

It is treason, or at least sabotage. We should use the word impeachment more often.

[BikeWriter]

20. Yep, they're making us all poorer and they're raking in millions... :-(

[peacebird]

19. the military in Oceana is asking for retirees to volunteer

on base doing jobs like painting, general repairs, minor electrical in addition to grunt paperwork.

They need to get free labor because they are getting so many cuts in $$$ that they can't afford to hire the locals or spouses of active duty for pay anymore.

interesting twist, eh? My mom pointed this out to me when I went home over the holidays. * sure supports the military, eh?

[patrice]

21. Somebody has to pay Halliburton's guaranteed profits. n/t

[BikeWriter]

38. OMG! We're down to that already? :-(

[SmileyBoy]

7. Awesome reply.

It's amazing at the gall of some young people nowadays who are all gung-ho for war. Now I'm only 22, but at least I've been educated on the matter.

[BikeWriter]

16. Thanks, SmileyBoy. The fact you're here shows your intelligence! :-)

[Medical Speaking]

15. Young right winger

I was in the Nam also 66-67 and you told this idiot the way it was.
I also had a young man 20 tell me I didnt know anything about war.
I told this punk if you think war is so great why arent you joing up.
HE WALKED AWAY.

I love these young replugs, the talk the talk but they wont walk the walk.

Semper Fi

[BikeWriter]

18. Thank you for your service and welcome home! :-)

[patrice]

24. Hey, I've asked a few of them that when they did counter

demonstrations at our anti-War rallies, each Sunday at the Country club Plaza here in KC. We've been there going on 3 years. They started showing up this Summer with Bush signs, so I asked a couple of them a couple of times over the same question, "So why aren't you getting over there to do this thing?" Answer? I swear to goodness, "I'm going to Princeton" and the other guy was on his way to school in California.

The basic concept is, "It's good for someone else to die for whatever, as long as it isn't me, as long as I get my yuppie life handed to me by my political friends".

[BikeWriter]

30. Right on, Patrice! Keep up the good fight! I'd like to be out there...

...in the streets with you, and will be as soon as I get some health issues under control. :)

[patrice]

40. Cool. I hope you're okay soon.

Things really do happen in the streets. Lots of people honk and wave, many simply smile and nod, sometimes, especially when the weather is good, people walk up and ask questions or thank us.

Signage that can be read and understood during red lights is very important.

[BikeWriter]

43. You'll see me out there. I'll be the dude with the long white beard...

...the "Class of VietNam 1968" T-shirt and the VietNam Vet cap! :)

[Worst Username Ever]

33. The kid's quote:

"Also all this talk about how President Bush is evil but does he blow up buses, schools and churches? NO!"

Um, yes.

[BikeWriter]

35. Yes, I pointed out to him they're Iraqis so he doesn't care... ;-(

[warrens]

37. Hmmm, 14

I do believe he could be draftable before Smirk's term ends. I hope he gets to be the first in his class to be inducted and shipped overseas. What a stupid little jerk.

[BikeWriter]

39. Yes, a stupid little jerk, but hopefully not incurable. ;-(

[khashka]

41. Absolutely right

Growing up I read a lot about the Vietnam war. And I was always anti-war, and cool, and liberal, and felt very proud of myself. But it never really hit home until I fell in love with a man who had been a soldier in Vietnam and was paralyzed from his shoulders down.

And that's when it became real to me. Really real. When it really hit me in the gut. What war really means. And how many lives are devastated by it.

So good for you. Keep speaking up. You know it firsthand and we all need to hear it.

Khash.

[BikeWriter]

42. Thanks, Khash. As all combat vets are my Kin, I'm shedding a tear...

...and lighting a candle for yours.