11 year old boy wants a sex change

[Deja Q]

http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/200405/tows_past_20040512.jhtml

Shouldn't puberty hit and pass before he has his goulies chopped off?

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. I should think you'd want the person to have fully grown up first

I can't imagine surgery like that is safe before puberty has ended; let alone before it's begun!

I think it's also tough for an eleven year old to really know what gender he/she wants.

Not to disparage the kid's sense of who he is, but goldangit kid, wait until your testicles fall at least!

[AlienGirl]

17. Kids have a clear sense of their gender long before eleven

It's actually best for TG people to go through treatments *before* puberty is done; a lot of the problems involved with hormone therapy can be minimized that way.

Tucker

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. Well, that's why I don't pretend to be a doctor

I'm not a very good one!

I would never have thought that starting before puberty would be the helpful way to go.

Thanks!

[Stealther]

42. It also maximizes the years of one's life spent the way one wants

If I have any regrets regarding my own transition from male to female, it's that I didn't have the courage, the means, the support, or the knowledge to do it sooner.

That regret is all those years lost. I'd have given anything to spend my teen and young adulthood being who I am now.

That's another reason.

[mermaid]

45. Myself A TG Person, I Must Concur!!

I sincerely wish I'd had the opportunity to begin hormone therapy long before the damage caused by testosterone had hit!

I WISH I'd been able to get started before things happened like growing facial hair...and voice deepening. Damn, I wish!!

I knew from my youngest age I was a girl!

My thought, when I was young wasn't "I want to be a girl." My thought was "I want to be like the other girls. Why are my folks trying to make me be a boy?"

It was not until I was about 8 that I learned of the physical differences, and that, alas, physically, at least...I was a boy. i mean...I could see my mom had something upstairs that my dad didn't...I wasn't blind...but, I always assumed I'd grow up to be like Mom. I didn't know of the differences below the belt until about age 8.

And it wasn't until I was 13 that I learned that transsexual surgery existed, and was possible. That all the disgusting masculinization my body had thus gone through was reversible!!

Prior to learning THAT...I'd been considering suicide. Now, I only wish I could have gotten started before the damage was done. As it was, I was not able to get started until I was 24...and, as a result, I have issues with "passing" that I would not have...had I started before beginning to develop secondary sex characteristics in the first place!

[AlienGirl]

48. "Most little boys have penises and grow up to be men."

A good friend of mine, who babysat my kids while I was going through radiation, is TG. My kids learned from an early age that some people change their gender; I wanted to be very sure thay'd know it was possible if they needed to, especially because my elder son wasn't sure if he wanted to grow up to be a man or a woman.

Tucker

[gollygee]

2. I don't know if it's this kid or another

there was one pre-pubescent kid who wanted to *start the process* right away but wouldn't have surgery till adulthood. Starting hormones before puberty might be ok - that would be pretty reversable anyway. And I can see how it could be difficult for a transgendered person to go through puberty - it's hard enough when it's the right stuff going on let alone when it's the wrong stuff.

[HereSince1628]

10. Hormones can lead to irreversible changes...

Breasts once formed aren't going to shrink completely and go away...at least without surgery.

Some anti-testosterone drugs have risks. The old ones had the potential to even damage heart muscle.

I would think there are all kinds of psychological considerations. I don't even know if there is a standard of care for pre-pubescent persons seeking sex change.

On the otherhand stopping the effects of testosterone induced secondary sex changes would mean that things like large Adams apple, perhaps and perhaps some of the skeletal changes could be avoided or minimized.

My knowledge of this is dated it's been a while since I taught a course on human sexuality and reproduction.

[CubsFan1982]

3. I can't imagine that kind of identity crisis.

I guess I'm lucky. I've always been fond of my goulies and everything that comes with 'em. :P

[Placebo]

4. Not until he's 18...

if you can't get a damn piercing or tattoo (in most states) until you're 18 you can't change your gender!

That being said, he'll still have to live as a woman for a while, so probably not until he's 20 or 21.

Hell, I can't even get laser corrective eye surgery until I'm 21! No sex change for you! lol

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. But, I'll say this - he's established early a reason to avoid the draft

Sargent: "You got a reason you shouldn't be in the military?"

"I want to be a woman"

"Oh, really?"

"Yes"

"And how do I know you aren't just pulling my chain?"

"I was on Oprah 7 years ago about it."

"Oh. Well, I'd count that as a substantial history. 4-F for you, buddy/buddiette"

[HEyHEY]

6. I gained a little wieght when I was 9

And started getting a little fat on my upper chest. I was worried I Was turning into a woman involuntarily./ YOu shoulda seen my mom's face when I explained my fear to her.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. sexual reassignment surgery

is performed on infants that are born with ambiguous gender. Part of the theory behind that is that the earlier the better. On the other hand some of those people have turned around and sued over their reassignment when they found out. The whole subject creeps me out.

[Chelsea Patriot]

50. Ann Coulter's story

Infant sexual reassignment she has since resented.

[mermaid]

52. that Is Incredibly NOT FUNNY...And Extremely Insensitive!!

If you were TG, you'd understand why.

[sans qualia]

58. Oh HELL no

WTF is wrong with you? People in this thread are sharing very personal and painful details of their lives in an effort to educate people, and you chime in with a moronic Ann Coulter joke? How profoundly boorish of you. :grr:

[AlienGirl]

59. This is as inappropriate as snickering over whether she's part African.

[Stealther]

77. Not funny.

[madison2000]

8. Maybe there are medical and psychological reasons its better

to do this before puberty? I'm just guessing, I'd want a child psychologist to say whether its possible to know ones identify is at odds with anatomy so young.

[jmowreader]

78. I can think of a couple medical reasons to do it before puberty

If you did it before puberty, you wouldn't have to deal with facial hair, hands, feet, Adam's apple and deepened-voice issues.

But wouldn't the whole family have to move if you had this done?

[NV Whino]

9. Actually this was done for different results years ago

The boys were called castratti. It was done to preserve the high sweet voice of prepubescent boys.

(Spelling may not be correct, but you get the idea.)

As I recall the last official castratti died in the 80s.

[Nikia]

11. Perhaps, I am a bit ignorant about gender identity

But for me, going through puberty strengthened my identity as a woman. Before that, I didn't really care to be a girl, not that I especially wanted to be a boy either. I suppose that a child who really felt that they were the other gender wouldn't want to be confused by the sex typed hormones that puberty brings. I really do think though that it could solidify his/her decision. I think that such an important decision shouldn't be made until adulthood anyway. I just think that actually being a man or woman is something to experience before a final decision is made.

[UdoKier]

12. I think age 18 should pass first.

There is a lot of crazy adolescent confusion to go through before one can really be sure of who one is.

But if I were the parent, I wouldn't object to his dressing as a female, and might consider allowing hormone treatments.

[ContraBass Black]

13. I'm glad I'm not a parent.

I just wouldn't know what to do.

[Stealther]

14. As someone who HAS undergone gender reassignment...

...I am not surprised this young person knows that her gender isn't right for the body she's in.

I knew it at age six.

And by age 8 or 9, I realized I could never, ever have what I wanted.

At the age of 31, I finally realized that I was actually wrong about that. Now, over ten years later, I am a happy, healthy, well-adjusted female...or as close to it as I can hope to be in this lifetime.

I'll say this much though: In reading this thread and the replies to it, I'm saddened by the degree of ignorance being displayed. People don't ever just choose being transgendered or intersexed (or both) just for the hell of it.

[Zenlitened]

16. There is a huge level of misunderstanding out there about ...

... what it means to be transgendered. Congrats to you for finding the courage and the knowledge to arrive at the right place for you. :)

[AlienGirl]

19. Thank you for posting on this!

It's always good to have the input of people who've actually *got experience* with being TG.

Tucker

[Stealther]

30. Thank you.

[serryjw]

39. I saw the show....

If any of you did you would not question whom these kids are. The problem with being straight and that you are in the 'right body' is you assume that everyone is. Nature makes all kinds of human including one's trapped in the wrong body since th days of Christiane Jorgensen. For those whom have been exposed there is what is called 'brain sex'. It is WHAT YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE.....which is entirely different than what sex you are attracted to......

Ex you can go thru the gender reassignment surgery and still be Gay!

These kids will live as the gender they believe they are and will have the surgery after 18. No question, this is tough a parent, but bottom line is your child's happiness. Too many teen Gay people commit suicide,can you imagine what this must be like to be trapped in the wrong body

[mermaid]

46. You Have Basically Mirrored My Own Life Story And Sentiments

I, too...am appalled at the level of ignorance and fear that this subject seems to be having in some of the respondents.

We didn't choose this.

I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy!

Damn, I tell you what I REALLY wish....

I wish that I had been comfortable and happy with the gender I was born, be it make or female. I WISH my gender identity had been congruent with my physical anatomy...male or female...and that I never HEARD of any of this shit.

It isn't an easy path to follow.

2 1/2 years post-op I am now...and no regrets...I am as close to being a well-adjusted, fully functional female as I will ever get in this life...and for that, I am grateful.

but...how badly I wish that....no matter which way I'd gotten born...male or female...I just wish my gender identity had been congruent with my physical anatomy. whether it was male or female wouldn't matter at that point.

Yeah, I'd rather have been born a girl. but, even to have been born a man - AND BEEN OKAY WITH IT....would be preferable to the hell I went through to get where I am now.

But no regrets. I cannot change what was done. But, I sure wouldn't wish the dilemma we TG people face on anyone...not even my worst enemy!

[Stealther]

54. Heartfelt *hugs* to ya, Mermaid

Yes, that's it EXACTLY.

In another thread a few days ago, I said that for all my life I wanted one of two things:
1. To be free of the desire/compulsion/need to be a gender that was not congruent with the body I was born with, *OR*
2. To be that gender I thought I was supposed to be

Only in the years since going through transition and surgery have I gotten both of those things. I am 100% happy with my gender now. The desire/compulsion/need is no more, and I *AM* the gender I always thought I was supposed to be.

And like you, I wouldn't wish what I had to go through upon ANYONE. Those who are happy with their genders have it easy.

But hey -- maybe this struggle is part of who we have to be, who we were supposed to be.

I do know this much: I'm aware I have more courage than I thought I did. It makes most other challenges seem easy by comparison.

[mermaid]

62. Hugs Back!!

Lemme tell you what...since they say that only 10% of those who seek SRS ever actually achieve it...it can be said only the REALLY STRONG make it through this process.

And I can tell you from experince that the old adage is true....Nothing worthwhile is ever easy!

I have inner peace about my gender I never had in the 31 years that preceded my surgery.

I now have what I always wanted...a mind congruent with my body.

Male or female, I couldn't have cared less. CONGRUENCY was what I wanted. And the only way to get that, for me...was SRS. And becoming a female.

But I'd have been just as happy if someone could have just given me a pill that would have taken all the feelings of being female away...and made my gender idetity congruent with my then-male anatomy...that would have worked, too.

It's not about the body or the surgery, really...it is about congruency. and those who have not experienced this lack of congruency can never truly understand what it is we have been through.

On a side note...what i find interesting is...how many people seem to think I was "brave" for doing what I did. Nope. Not brave at all. I made a choice. Live as a woman...or die as a man. I chose to live. No more and no less.

And these same people seem to think that the biggest thing I gave up was "male privilege." Nope. The biggest thing I gave up was MY HUMANITY. Because there have been...and still are...those who no longer see me as human.

Then...once I achieved my own inner peace...I realized that those who had taken my humanity had done so only because I had ALLOWED them to.

I reclaimed it. Now, if anyone has a problem with who or what I am...guess which one of us has the problem??

I do not let others make their hangups into my problem...not anymore.

[Stealther]

80. Some replies to replies...

You write: "Lemme tell you what...since they say that only 10% of those who seek SRS ever actually achieve it...it can be said only the REALLY STRONG make it through this process."

I heard pretty much the same thing when I went through it, about ten years ago.

You write: "I have inner peace about my gender I never had in the 31 years that preceded my surgery."

Same here. Things were a little rough the first couple of years, adjusting to the changes and all.

You write: "I now have what I always wanted...a mind congruent with my body."

More dittos.

You write: "Male or female, I couldn't have cared less. CONGRUENCY was what I wanted. And the only way to get that, for me...was SRS. And becoming a female."

Here we begin to diverge a little. And actually, my feelings have varied across my life.

There were times when simple congruency, however it worked out, would've been preferred over anything else. A lot of the rest of the time though, I simply wished to be free of my 'difference.' During those times, if such a 'magic pill' as you later describe were to exist, I'd have taken it gladly. Hell, I'd have taken two, just to be certain.

Now though...I'm not so sure. I'm the "me" that resulted from everything that went before. As hard as it was, I'm not sure that if I even had the option to erase all those years as a male, I would do so. I have unique experiences -- which went into everything that I am now.

You write: "On a side note...what i find interesting is...how many people seem to think I was "brave" for doing what I did. Nope. Not brave at all. I made a choice. Live as a woman...or die as a man. I chose to live. No more and no less."

I used to get the same thing, too, when I was more public about it. (In fact, I've been in stealth for such a long time, when my in-laws brought it up last year, in just that 'bravery' context, I had to shake myself. "Brave? For what? What are you talking about-- oh, *that*!")

For me, it was survival, pure and simple. Live out the rest of my life this way, or die. I was pretty close to suicide during that last year.

You further add: "And these same people seem to think that the biggest thing I gave up was "male privilege." Nope. The biggest thing I gave up was MY HUMANITY. Because there have been...and still are...those who no longer see me as human."

You are *SO* right about that. To some, I'm a guy who had his genitalia mutilated. To others, I'm simply "not a real woman", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Sometimes I even laugh about the same-sex marriage controversy, because I can think of a few places where it's probably illegal for me to marry ANYBODY. Why? Can't marry a man because I'm not really female, and can't marry a woman because I'm no longer male either.

What's sad is all those whose own sense of gender identity is threatened by what we choose for ourselves.

In any case, there's a reason why some like myself then go stealth within a few years of transition. It's...easier.

You close with: "Then...once I achieved my own inner peace...I realized that those who had taken my humanity had done so only because I had ALLOWED them to.
I reclaimed it. Now, if anyone has a problem with who or what I am...guess which one of us has the problem??
I do not let others make their hangups into my problem...not anymore."

Good for you!

Know one of the really wonderful things about this Internet thing? We may be quite rare, but we all got to find out that we're not alone.

best regards,
-Stealther

[Zenlitened]

15. Standards of Care for pre-adolescent transgendered persons...

...Gender identity disorders in childhood are not equivalent to those in adulthood and the former do not inevitably lead to the latter. The younger the child the less certain and perhaps more malleable the outcome.

...

Physical Interventions. Before any physical intervention is considered, extensive exploration of psychological, family and social issues should be undertaken. Physical interventions should be addressed in the context of adolescent development. Adolescents' gender identity development can rapidly and unexpectedly evolve. An adolescent shift toward gender conformity can occur primarily to please the family, and may not persist or reflect a permanent change in gender identity. Identity beliefs in adolescents may become firmly held and strongly expressed, giving a false impression of irreversibility; more fluidity may return at a later stage. For these reasons, irreversible physical interventions should be delayed as long as is clinically appropriate. Pressure for physical interventions because of an adolescent's level of distress can be great and in such circumstances a referral to a child and adolescent multi- disciplinary specialty service should be considered, in locations where these exist.

Physical interventions fall into three categories or stages:

1. Fully reversible interventions. These involve the use of LHRH agonists or medroxyprogesterone to suppress estrogen or testosterone production, and consequently to delay the physical changes of puberty.

2. Partially reversible interventions. These include hormonal interventions that masculinize or feminize the body, such as administration of testosterone to biologic females and estrogen to biologic males. Reversal may involve surgical intervention.

3. Irreversible interventions. These are surgical procedures.

A staged process is recommended to keep options open through the first two stages. Moving from one state to another should not occur until there has been adequate time for the young person and his/her family to assimilate fully the effects of earlier interventions.

Complete resource:
http://www.hbigda.org/socv6.cfm#05

[Starlight]

18. I know mine is not the PC opinion,

but I question the validity of transgender. I don't believe sex reassignment surgery is any more ethically acceptable than species reassignment surgery. I don't understand what people are talking about when they say they're the "wrong" gender. I'm perfectly happy being female, but if I was to suddenly transform into a male tomorrow, I'd be ok with that, too, as long as I was healthy. It's just a body, after all. An outer shell. I'd still be *me* inside. :shrug:

[AlienGirl]

21. It is absolutely real

The body may be an outer shell, but it is also an important vehicle for self-expression in the world.

You assume you'd be fine if, tomorrow, everybody started treating you as a man. As an experiment, would you be willing to try it out? Buy a really obviously male outfit, have an experienced costumer attach some facial hair to you, and go out in man drag. Unless you are one of the relatively rare people who don't "feel" any particular gender, you'll notice it is distinctly uncomfortable.

Tucker

[KittyWampus]

23. I Was Mistaken For A Boy As A Little Girl.

And I have a VERY healthy self image.

And Male/Female... lots of people are born with mixtures of both plumbing.

The emphasis on being one or the other is societal/cultural.

Indiciative of an unbalanced sense of Dualism.

[KittyWampus]

22. Indeed, Western Society Is Obsessed With Their Physical Body &

totally unable to grasp anything besided a Materialist Philosophy.

Our Physical body, personality and ego are nothing more than a vehicle.


Come down off your throne and leave your body alone
somebody must change
You are the reason I've been waiting so long
somebody holds the key
Well, I' m near the end and I just ain't got the time
And I' m wasted and I can't find my way home

[Interrobang]

25. I don't think it's got anything to do with materialism or dualism...

Gender is performative and political; sex is biological. Speaking as soneone who doesn't perform the gender associated with their biological sex very well, I can tell you it's not exactly easy. It's got nothing much to do with any alleged body/mind dichotomy, and more like the difference between the way the culture demands that people with your set of genitalia ought to look, dress, and act, and the way you yourself feel as though you should look, dress, and act. If you've never noticed a disparity there, either you're oblivious, or just cisgendered.

Personally, I'm a stone cold Empiricist (which has very little to do with "materialism" per se), and I think you're spouting off nonsense. Then again, I'm influenced by cultural studies and biology, less so by philosophy. :D

[sans qualia]

27. You might be interested to know ...

... that you're dead wrong. As a TG person, I can say this with absolute confidence. And I honestly don't see what this has to with the mind/body problem.

[Stealther]

32. Aye... and ditto, as I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread...

...and in other posts touching on this very same subject.

More about the experience of being TG, and gender in particular--

Being a particular gender is a huge gestalt of various factors.

There's the social -- being called "she" and "ma'am" and referred to as "her." Moreover, there isn't a society on this planet that doesn't treat its boys and girls somewhat differently (sometimes for the good, sometimes not). Gender roles differ, as do the socially accepted gender behavior norms. (Again, sometimes this is good, but often not.)

There's the self-expression -- of looking the way you want to look. Lots of people, especially young ones looking to rebel, will push the gender boundaries. But push it too far and people will stare. And you'll only feel even more out-of-place.

There's also the sexual -- which actually happens not to be talked about all that much. I wonder if anyone but the truly transgendered has any idea what it'd be like to NEVER get to have sexual relations in the way you really want them. (Well, TGs and those who either are handicapped or otherwise have non-functioning body parts.) I'm not talking about people who are by nature asexual or who choose celibacy or who just lack the social skills to get laid. What I mean is to have a body where any sort of sexual awareness is equally accompanied by a sense of utter wrongness. Where every encounter is by definition unsatisfying.

And there's the physical -- and what I mean by that is to feel "at home" inside one's body. Can you even begin to imagine what it's like to look at someone ostensibly of the 'opposite' gender who happens to be good looking and feel not attraction but ENVY?

Gender expression in humans is a complicated thing -- and one that for many is overwhelmingly compelling. It's physical, sexual, social, and also deeply personal.

One of the funny-sad things I keep seeing here (besides the dismaying disgust), is how many are expressing opinions as to the nature of being transgendered -- and couching them in terms which are dry and without comprehension.

I am the face of the transgendered woman. I had my entire life warped and twisted by something I did not understand and would've, in an instant, given up in favor of being "normal." It was compulsion, desire, and certainties, all wrapped up in one.

-Stealther

[mermaid]

57. OH, SHIT...Can I Relate!!!

Damn...now I KNOW you are TG...same as me...

(snip)...And there's the physical -- and what I mean by that is to feel "at home" inside one's body. Can you even begin to imagine what it's like to look at someone ostensibly of the 'opposite' gender who happens to be good looking and feel not attraction but ENVY?(/snip)

Damn I can tell you I have felt that a hell of a lot!!

[UncleSepp]

61. Good GOD YES

I was at this Argentinian steakhouse a few weeks ago. There was a beautiful couple doing the tango. The woman was strong and beautiful, the man compact and powerful... I was staring at this man, dark-haired and handsome, an incredible dancer, and he looked back at me with this expression like "I know you want my body". And I was thinking, yeah, but not in the way you think!

[AlienGirl]

63. ...and I just wanted the ability to dance like that without tripping!

[sans qualia]

66. Me too

Never to be left out... I spent about six months going to school in Edinburgh. Every night I'd walk around the Old Town, and every night I'd see girls my age out barhopping. It was like being punched in the stomach, over and over again. Sometimes I just had to duck into an alley and hide until I was alone again, or I'd burst into tears on the spot.

[gollygee]

24. Something I read

is that when forming in the womb, a fetus has hormones that signal whether it becomes male or female. When the hormones go out to make the changes, there is sometimes a mix-up and different hormones go to the brain than to the body. In that case, a person would truly be a woman in a man's body, or a man in a woman's body.

[Stealther]

36. That's one of the theories yes

There's actually a whole range of possible causes that've been identified and many more that haven't. I'll see if I can remember a few...

- Hormone imbalance during pregnancy
- Intersexed condition (often 'fixed' after birth, sometimes without the parents' knowledge even)
- Genetic anomalies (multiple X or Y chromosomes, damaged sex chromosomes, XX/XY (my own condition))
- Androgen or estrogen insensitivity syndromes

Another thing I'm finding funny is how important it seems to be for there to be a 'phyisical' reason. In a few cultures, it's actually sufficient simply for the child to say they're the other way -- and it's accepted.

I find it a wonder that people can't simply accept that this child wishes to be a girl. If it's really not meant to be, she'll know.

[gollygee]

41. Sorry for my ignorance

I don't really know the specific reasons for why it occurs - I just wanted to point out that I had read a theory that it could indeed be physical.

It seems funny to think of someone "becoming another gender." I see this as being a debate about whether who we are is defined by our bodies or our souls. If this kid's soul is masculine, why would we assume he is female just because his body is? If your soul is feminine, why would anyone assume you are or were ever male just because your body was? In my opinion, the mind, or soul, or spirit, or whatever trumps the body. This is one place where fundamentalist Christians seem to find the physical more important than the spirtual, which to my non-religious mind is kind of ironic.

[Stealther]

44. No need for apologies!

You mentioned one of the very theories behind this whole thing -- which even today, nobody truly understands.

Heck, I -AM- a post-op TS woman, and I don't understand how I ended up this way.

You actually make excellent points there. The statements in my own post were more in general musing than intended as a criticism.

[mermaid]

65. I've Never Encountered Another Klinefelter!!!

You and me, both. I'm a Mosiac Klinefelter. some of my cells conform to the Klinefelter pattern of 47XXY...others conform to the normal genetic male 46XY.

In my case, it is a genetic condition, brought on by having, in some of my cells...an extra chromosome.

Sounds like you are describing exactly the same thing.

[Stealther]

83. Not quite Klinefelter...but close

I'm actually a full-on fraternal twin mosaic. Some of my cells are XX, some are XY. All depends on where you take the biopsy. It's the result, typically, of two separately fertilized eggs fusing.

In most cases, one egg so dominates the other, there's no problem, just a few cells lost somewhere deep in the body. For some kids, they'll have some other sign, like a pronounced bilateral dimorphism, or possibly eyes of colors that don't match. I'd imagine that if a child were fraternal twins like this, but the sex chromosomes matched, there likely would be no gender identity issues.

Anyway, whatever the specifics, when I was born, there didn't seem to be any doubt I was male, although there was a little surgery because...well, things down there weren't completely formed. Originally, everyone wrote that off as just a side-effect of my having also been premature. I didn't even find out about it until AFTER I told my birth family about my transition plans -- in my early 30s!

The final diagnosis is XX/XY melange, with resultant androgen insensitivity. Oh, and I was also sterile.

Elsewhere in this thread you expressed a bit of understandable envy for my 'passing' abilities. A lot of that came because my body reacted to testosterone only slightly more than most women's would have. When the estrogen therapy started, it was like hitting a long-delayed puberty. (If it's any consolation, back in the decades I was trying so very hard to be male, I felt like such a failure for not seeming more... well, 'butch'. I might even admit that being stealth now, I don't feel like I'm quite so brave as I used to be.)

So... very close to the same thing as you. Not quite, but darned close.

-Stealther

[Stealther]

29. You're welcome to your opinion, Starlight, but...

...unless you've EXPERIENCED being transgendered, you really don't know what you're talking about, I'm sorry to say.

You could just as well have said, "I don't believe in homosexuality. I don't understand what people are talking about when they say they're attracted only to those who are the same gender as they are. I'm perfectly happy being a heterosexual woman."

Yes, I'm the same 'me' I was before the reassignment surgery and the hormones and the rest of it. The same consciousness, the same person in many of the ways that matter. But I am VERY different now, in other crucial ways.

I'll give you a little primer on this thing called "gender dysphoria" though. Maybe you believe you'd be fine with suddenly turning into a guy tomorrow -- but not everybody feels that way. In fact, if you read the reactions of a lot of the people posting in this thread, there's a distinct note of horror and disgust in many of them. (I also rather suspect that you'd soon find it a whole lot less comfortable than you might think.)

Imagine, if you will, suddenly realizing as an early child that you are one thing, but feel like you were supposed to be the other. Imagine being punished for expressing 'boyish' behaviors (trust me, given the misogyny of our culture, it's actually far worse for boys behaving 'girlishly'). Imagine, daring to say anything about it to your parents, only to have them send you to a shrink. Or just flat out beat you for having such 'evil' thoughts.

Imagine, watching your body begin to show the signs of puberty, and whereas your friends are pleased, you instead feel an increasing sense of disgust and despair over what your body is becoming. Imagine looking down (or into the mirror) and not seeing what you want, but instead that which feels like it was imposed upon you without your will or consent.

Imagine -trying- for decades to WANT what everybody else says you're supposed to want. Trying to accept what everybody says you are and have to be.

Imagine reaching the end, despairing, because despite everything you've tried and done, none of it works. You're as ashamed of your body as you ever were. You feel like a complete failure and a fraud.

Accepting onesself as transgendered is the first step to recovering the rest of onesself. I more or less had the body of a male for the first 31 years of my life -- and at no time did I ever feel like I belonged in it. I was always ashamed of it, kept myself covered. I hated the role expected of me by society. Hated myself.

Finally moving beyond that, accepting myself for who and I was, has enabled me to become the person -- the woman -- I always wanted to be and always thought I should be.

Anyway, please don't question the validity of something you've neither experienced nor understand.

thanks,
Stealther

[sans qualia]

31. Very well said

:thumbsup:

[all.of.me]

55. this is true for anything traumatic in anyone's life

"...please don't question the validity of something you've neither experienced nor understand."

i have lost friends over my issues around being adopted. they thought they understood what it's like to be an adult adoptee, and that i was just being over emotional or stubborn. they told me to 'get over it!' they have NO idea what it's like, anymore than i know what it's like to have a husband die (one friend had lost two husbands). i would never assume to understand those emotions! but apparently my friends didn't think that way.

thanks for your posts here tonight. i'm glad you feel freer than you did as a child. thanks also for your courage in talking about it.

genevat

[UncleSepp]

64. Puberty got nothing on middle age IME

A girl, a teenager, a twentysomething buff underweight woman can "pass" as a boy or a young man pretty well. The differences aren't so great. When you're thirtywhatever, kinda hippy, with tits that weren't there at a hundred and ten pounds and a beer belly that sits under the belt instead of over it, you're about as womanly as it gets.

I would love to correspond with you. I really would. I want to know why at 33 this is a much bigger deal than it ever was before. I want to know why I haven't just gotten over it. I want to know why it wakes me out of sleep and why it kicks me in the guts in the middle of a work day. I think if I don't find some other people my age or older who know what this is all about I may just end up playing the body roulette one more time and hoping the ball lands on blue instead of pink. I can't freaking stand this. I don't want to get old like this!

[AlienGirl]

68. Body roulette's not a good idea

(I know, that's hypocritical coming from me...but still--it isn't. OK?)

Tucker

[Stealther]

92. I'll send you a PM, Jen

Soon as I can figure out how, w/out compromising my privacy. Unfortunately, I don't have enough posts yet to allow it.

I'll figure a way.

[AlienGirl]

94. Stealther: build up post count!

But if you give me an email addy or something I can relay messages to AuntJen.

Tucker

[Stealther]

96. Thank you, but I've got it covered.

:)

Appreciate the offer though. I think it kicks in at 100 posts or thereabouts, and despite my prolific posting today, I suspect it'll be a while before I get there.

[mermaid]

69. You Hit It Dead On!!!

All I can add to it is this...

If you were not truly gender dysphoric before the surgery...YOU WILL BE AFTERWARDS!!!

TG folks reading this will understand what I mean here.

But, Stealther....you have hit it all right on the head.

I felt as a failure, because I could not want what everyone else said I was supposed to want...I wanted something very different...and all the messages I kept getting told me I wasn't supposed to want that...so I hated myself...hated my body....hated life...hated EVERYTHING...

I now know peace.

Incidentally, I went to Dr. Porsinsiriak, in Bangkok, Thailand (Yanhee Hospital) Where did you go?

[Stealther]

95. Surgeons

Dr. Yves Menard, assisted by Dr. Brassard. Quebec, Canada.

[Zenlitened]

33. "Species reassignment"??? WTF?

Sounds a lot like the "box turtle/bestiality" nonsense the gay-haters are so fond of spouting.

What an incredibly insensitive remark.

[Stealther]

34. Aye...but I decided to let that pass in favor of an actual response

But yes, I found that particular line rather insensitive and ignorant.

So... hence my education efforts.

[Zenlitened]

35. You're far more patient than I am!

I thought your response was terrific, BTW. :)

[Stealther]

38. Thanks Zenlitened. Your own posts have been wonderful

I'm really glad you were able to find the Standards of Care entry for preadolescents, too. If you hadn't, I was going to go scouring via Google myself.

As for the patience part? Sometimes I get angry, when faced with bigotry and misunderstanding. It's one of the reasons why, for example, I *have* 'gone stealth' as it's termed in the TS/TG community. (For those who don't know, it means that nobody but my closest family members, a couple of friends, and my doctor have any idea I wasn't raised female. It's an option that not every post-transition TG person has...but I'm thankful to have had it nonetheless.)

And to add a little more education, for others who might've been reading this thread-- There are tons of rules governing the process of qualifying for hormone replacement and gender reassignment surgery. Some people seek to circumvent these, but most don't -- because none of the reputable endocrinologists and surgeons will have anything to do with the TG person who hasn't followed the steps.

These include:
- Certification by AT LEAST two qualified mental health professionals, one of whom has to be a licensed psychiatrist with a medical degree
- An official diagnosis from the DSM-IV guidelines of transsexualism (DSM-IV is *the* bible for mental health professionals)
- A minimum of a full year of full-time cross-living in the target gender (this can be a major bitch and a half when your legal ID doesn't match what you look like and call yourself... especially in airports in the US these days)
- If married, the spouse must give written consent
- If underage, both parents or guardians must consent (and doctors won't act unless they're positive it's what the child really wants, too)
- Finally, every gender reassignment surgeon I know will conduct a fairly lengthy interview, just to be sure, before admitting the patient for surgery

Sometimes the Standards of Care (SoC) can seem rigid and inflexible, and they're not perfect, but on the whole, they probably prevent more mistakes than they cause. (For example, there *are* homosexuals out there who have such a problem with their sexual orientation that they've sought out reassignment...only to discover they were mistaken about the real issue. But that's what the psychotherapy is supposed to uncover.)

But with respect to this child -- unless there's junk going on that didn't come out in that program, there's very little chance anything irrevocable will be done until she's a good deal older.

Anyway, thank you again. I appreciate the support.

-Stealther

[Zenlitened]

40. Well, you've provided some great information here...

... and hopefully you've educated a few people.

There's such a great deal of learning to be done around this topic. Just beginning with the premise that being transgendered equates simply to "wants to have his balls cut off." As if that even begins to encompass the whole of a person's gender orientation. Or that one's gender identity is some superficial thing, shallow and fleeting, rather than a core aspect of what makes a person who he or she is.

As I said, I applaud your courage. I've seen people destroyed by gender dysphoria, and it's a terrible tragedy to witness. The strength and dignity you've displayed here should be heartening to those struggling with gender identity issues, and a real lesson to progressives who truly care about the well-being of all.

:)

(edited spelling)

[UncleSepp]

67. How does it destroy people? Please tell me.

I need to know. It's cutting my damned heart out and I need to know.

[Zenlitened]

74. Because they couldn't find a way to LIVE.

So many factors, from unaccepting families to lack of resources for transitioning... to just too damned many years living with the sort of heartache that comes with such a burden.

There are no easy answers, but as our TG sisters have said so eloquently here, embracing one's identity is the key. Accepting oneself, and deciding that one has the RIGHT to happiness, the right to be complete and whole and at ease in one's own body.

Are you struggling with gender dysphoria yourself? If so, I truly truly truly hope you don't feel that you are alone in the world. There are people in this very thread with experience and insight to share. I also recommend the International Foundation for Gender Education. They have many resources, for both M2F and F2M people -- including, most nights, a sympathetic ear on the other end of the phone. Check out their website, http://www.ifge.org, including their forum section.

Also, there are many, many counselors out there who have experience with TG patients. If you are struggling with gender dysphoria, I definitely urge you to find someone to talk to.

:)

[mermaid]

76. Yes

And good resources, but may I also suggest a Google Search On Renaissance Education Association?

They are based out of Philadelphia, and have "chapters" all over the country of social/support groups for crossdressers and transsexuals.

I, myself, founded the Allentown, PA Chapter before I left Pennsylvania two years later.

[Stealther]

84. Zen, you are WONDERFUL

One wee correction: We also have transgendered *brothers*.

For some reason, male-to-female TGs seem to be more common than female-to-males. Nobody knows why, or even if this is absolutely true, but it seems to be so. But they still exist nevertheless.

Anyway, thanks so much for the support, the acceptance, and the caring.

And you're right. Toward the end, most of us reach the crisis point where we say to ourselves, "I just can't go on like this..."

best,
-Stealther

[Stealther]

82. It destroys through depression, isolation, and shame

Depression, because you want something that, for most of us, we're told is utterly, completely 100% impossible. And for quite a few kids conceiving of this, the lesson is fully internalized, often within a year or two of first realizing, "Hey, how come I'm not a girl? Shouldn't I be? I thought I was!"

Answer: "No, absolutely not." You learn very quickly to hide it from EVERYONE. If you're bright like I was, you even think to yourself, "Oh, it's just a dumb phase, I'll grow out of this ridiculous fantasy. Just keep quiet about it."

Which leads to the isolation part. You talk to NOBODY about this secret of yours. You come to believe you are alone in how you feel. That nobody can ever help you.

Isolation and shame breed the depression and loneliness. Hopelessness just adds to the fun of gender dysphoria.

Some self-medicate through drugs and/or alcohol. Some overcompensate by going 'hypermasculine' or 'hyperfemme', depending on one's outward appearance. Some engage in risktaking behavior. Some just ignore all those longer methods and crack under the pressure, and commit suicide.

That's how it destroys people.

[mermaid]

70. You're Lucky You Are Able To Go Stealth

I, on the other hand...have no chance in HELL of going stealth and I know that. I've learned to adjust accordingly. i just didn't get the luck of the genetic draw. I'm built more like a linebacker than a lady...then again...some genetic women are, too. But I don't kid myself or disillusion myself. I assume I don't pass. I don't talk about it, either.

No one at work has ever been tasteless enough to bring it up...but if they did, I would simply change the subject.

[sans qualia]

71. *hugs*

That you're so much at peace with yourself despite your issues with passing is a testament to how strong you are, mermaid. :hug:

[Stealther]

88. I'm lucky, true... but you're stronger than I'll ever be

Believe me, it's also crossed my mind to wonder if, had I not passed as well as I did even before transition, I'd have had the courage to go through with it.

I'm not sure I would have.

[LoZoccolo]

43. What do you mean a species reassignment is not ethically acceptable?

:wtf:

I've been saving all my life for my surgery. I want to be a coyote. I'm going to get cosmetic dentistry to get fangs put in and have follicle transplants of fur and everything, once they can clone them from the DNA in shed fur. This has been me my whole life, and I intend to complete myself and release myself into the wild on all fours.

I thought liberals were supposed to be tolerant of other people.

[Stealther]

47. If you're a coyote, you're not a person anymore, nu?

[sans qualia]

49. Uh, thank you for that insightful contribution, LoZoccolo...

:eyes: This isn't a joke to everybody.

[mermaid]

51. And You Never Will Understand

you can sympathize...but you cannot empathize. you cannot know the pain we go thru...and I'd not wish the knowledge on you, either.

But, let me try to explain it in a way maybe you could relate to.

I don't think, for most of us...that there is anything more fundamental to our own self-identity than our gender. And since society treats the genders so much differently...how hurtful would it be for you...to have the whole world reacting to you as they would react to a man...instead of how they would react...and interact...with a woman?

The reactions we got, growing up....sent the wrong signals. We felt we were denied our basic identity. We learned to be ashamed of it, fearful of it...sick about it...and loathing it.

You can't know those feelings. You've not experienced them.

BUT...

You've stated you were a genetic female. Try to imagine you were STILL a female...but everyone around you reacted to you...and interacted with you...as they would a man...instead of as a woman. imagine how that would feel.

then you begin to see a glimpse of the suffering we TG people have always been through.

It is NOT, per se, about our bodies...it is about the way people react to us, and interact with us.

[AlienGirl]

53. OT: Mermaid, are you w/the Mermaids in the UK?

[mermaid]

72. Nope! My DU Handle Comes From

the movie The Little Mermaid. I SO LOVED that movie. Because there were SO MANY parallels!!

Like Ariel...I felt I was born into a world that did not fit well...I was meant to be born into a different world. Like Ariel...I reached for the star in my own heart....no matter what the cost was, I was willing to pay it.

and like Ariel...I finally did achieve my dream...

I will never forget...the first time I heard Jodi Benson (the voice of The Little Mermaid) sing "Part Of Your World."

I FUCKING CRIED!!! I mean...holy SHIT...here was Jodi Benson...The Little Mermaid...singing the song I had been singing MY WHOLE FUCKING LIFE...but I'd never known the words to the song until I heard them sung by Jodi.

"Just wait and you'll see....Someday I'll be....part of your world!!"

Oh, my God...I'm tearing up now, just typing that...

So, the Mermaid has become, for me...a symbol of my own struggle...and hence, I named myself Mermaid here at DU.

but thanks for asking!

[AlienGirl]

73. When Riley (my son) was asking about being a girl

there was a group for TG kids in England called the Mermaids, that I was looking into.

They chose the mermaid for much the same reasons.

Tucker

[mermaid]

75. I'm Not Surprised

That movie had a very profound effect on me!

I could completely relate to Ariel, in that movie. And to hear her sing those words...I could not help myself...I broke down crying...and I still cry even thinking about it. because, as I said...She was singing the words to the song I'd been singing ALL MY LIFE....I had just never known the words to the song until then.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joeybee12]

20. For what it's worth, I knew I was gay before age 11--it wasn't really

articulated, but I knew it. This kid probably has a good sense of who he is, however, something like this should not be decided by an 11-year-old. Gotta be a lot older to really know and be wise/knowledgable/experienced enough to make major decisions.

[HeatherG.]

26. Question

Do you know if they have done any tests on him to see if there is any apparent biological reason that he feels like a girl? I just finished reading As Nature Made Him and it included a story about this girl who wanted to drop out of shool and insisted that she was really a boy. She looked like a girl in every way, but always preffered boy toys and things. They did a test on her and found out she was actually a male but she had a rare genetic condition that prevented masculinization of the body.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

90. actually, the guy in "As Nature Made Him" suffered a botched

(and covered-up) circumcision at birth, and was raised as a girl so he wouldn't have to deal with mangled genitalia. yeah, didn't quite work out as simply as the doctor or parents hoped. those genetic conditions do happen, though.

[mermaid]

97. Yeah, I Know About That One

That was a cruel, sick "expirment" on the part of Dr. John Money, the sick bastard, may he forever rot in hell!

That was a case of twins...where one got a botched circumcision, and Money wanted to know if them being twins would affect the gender identity.

Seriously. I'm not joking.

This sick fucker satisfied his own curiousity by his actions, and literally EXPERIMENTED on a human being!! I think he would have been right at home studying under Dr. Goebbels!!

[Stealther]

101. He played dice with their lives

I agree, too, he ought to have gone to prison for it.

[HeatherG.]

99. I Know

But, at the end of the book it briefly covers some stories of other people who have had operations on their genitals.

[MissB]

28. I'd hope that his parents support him

as he heads into the teenage years.

I cannot imagine doing something like that for a child that young. I'm thinking 18 at least.

[AlienGirl]

56. At 18, it's harder for the hormones to work

Especially for MTF (Male-to-Female) people. Getting the female hormones in there before puberty ends makes the person more "passable."

Tucker

[Nikia]

79. As mentioned above, puberty strengthened my identity as female

I felt rather limited growing up as a girl. Sometimes I wanted to be a boy, but in other ways I wanted to be neither or both. I didn't really feel a gender and felt that gender roles and segregating and differentiating the sexes was stupid.
Then I became a woman and felt more female than I did when I was a child. I wanted to have a mother someday. I didn't mind wearing dresses or make up as much. I felt more comfortable with girls in my friendship (although I wondered if that wasn't partially because of some unfortunate incidences with men too).
I don't know if I "do" the gender thing correctly. I know that I don't walk like a woman. I am not sure about the other things, although I suspect that I am closer to a "normal" woman now than when I was a teenager.
When I've taken the gender tests based on activity preference, strengths, and such, I usually score androgenous, but tend feminine. I'm alright being female. Occaisionally though, I have been a little boy in dreams though.
From reading the above comments and such, I would assume that transgendered people are more strongly gendered the opposite of the sex that they were born. I might not have been unhappy if I turned out male and became a man. I suppose though if you were a male who was strongly feminine, instead of slightly feminine that you'd have a harder time accepting your gender.

[HeatherG.]

102. Same Here

When I was a little girl I felt somewhat androgynous. I couldn't relate well to the type of girl who would whisper and giggle and talk about others behind their backs. When I tried to jump rope I would feel stupid because instead of landing daintily, my feet would stomp the ground. I hated wearing dresses because they just didn't fit the image of who I felt I was. I played with both boys and girls. Now, that I am an adult, I like being a woman. I have a more positive view of the female gender then I did as a little girl. I now know that being a woman doesn't mean you have to be a ditz. I don't even mind wearing feminine clothes anymore, and actually like shopping for them. I still have been informed by my mom that I have never walked like a girl and still don't. I have a hell of a time with high heels.

[fujiyama]

81. I'm somewhat curious about this

and maybe some of the other transgendered people can help me with this, but where do you find people for relationships? I mean, gay people can go to gay bars, and while there is still a lot of homophobia out there, I think the concept of gender identity is very difficult for many to understand. I'm guessing that even among some in the the gay community, transgendered people may be seen as "out there".

I recall a thread a while back that basically degenerated into a flame fest because several honestly admitted (including myself) that they would not knowingly enter into a physical/intimate relationship with someone that had this sort of surgery done.

Hopefully I didn't offend anyone. I am curious about this.

[Stealther]

86. We just hope for the best, same as everybody else

I've actually been pretty lucky.

First of all, I'm Bi, so that widens my options considerably. Since transitioning, I did quite a bit of dating (something I *never* felt comfortable doing back in my old 'configuration').

I'll be blunt: If it was a one-night-stand or a casual relationship, I said nothing. For well over ten years now, the surgery for male-to-females has been good enough such that even gynecologists can be fooled. I think one time, one said, "I see a little scarring on one side. Did you have an episiotomy?" (A common procedure for women having babies, to make vaginal birth a little easier.) Me: "I think you need to re-read my file, doctor." Her: "Oh? (pause, shuffle-shuffle) Oh! (another pause, as the speculum is reinserted) Oh my..."

Anyway, most of the time, it simply never came up. When I brought it up, it was always when I felt the need to 'come clean' and let the pieces fall where they may.

I would add, however, that I've always had this tendency to be attracted towards open-minded people. And by that, open-minded to the point where who and what I am is seen as interesting but ultimately irrelevant.

On three separate occasions, I reached a point in the relationship that it felt appropriate and necessary to let them know. Two men, one woman. I'm still friends with one of the guys, but I was the one who ended the relationship eventually. He was just too possessive and passive-aggressive. The other fellow, we remained close for a long time, and we still stay in touch, but for us it was more for the fun and the fabulous sex than anything 'romantic'.

And the woman? I married her.

-Stealther

[mermaid]

98. I Can Answer That

Most of us DON'T.

Gays don't want us. Straights don't want us. Bi's sometimes want us...only when we are pre-op.

Some are what we call "tranny-sniffers" They want a novelty, perhaps..."did you know my girlfriend used to be a boyfriend" that sort of thing...always goot for a supper invite...

But, in all seriousness, the stats I have seen show that a post-op TS stands a one in seventeen chance of being married, post-op....and a one in twelve chance of being MURDERED post-op.

How many people do YOU know who have a better chance of being MURDERED than married??

For more, click

http://www.rememberingourdead.org

[Stealther]

100. True, all that

Early on, before I went stealth, I ran into more than a few of what in my locale we called "tranny-chasers". What's funny is that a few of these blokes turned away *because* I wasn't pre-op anymore.

And then other were, as you say (and in my opinion), the ones who wanted a TS and not a 'real woman'. Just another way of being with someone who isn't interested in you as a real person.

I know I got lucky in the ones I did finally meet and confide in. Even so though, the doubts sometimes remained...

[loudestchick]

103. Thanks to all the posters of really wonderful info in this thread.

My older brother claimed to be TS and began the process to become a woman (physically) about 10 yrs ago. He grew his hair longer, began hormone treatments, dressed more femininely but still very preppy. He eventually had some surgical intervention; removal of his penis and testicles and breast implants.

Then, after about 5 years, he changed his mind. I know. It sounds incredible.

He had his implants removed and began living as a male again. He's 40 now. I don't know what to say to him anymore. He's depressed, he has mutilated himself. I don't want him to be alone for the rest of his life, but I have my own life and he's so needy.

If such rigorous measures are taken to insure psychological preparation, how could this have been allowed to happen? I believe he should have sued someone. Though that wouldn't have solved the problems he now faces.

[Stealther]

104. For what it's worth, I know someone who changed his mind, too

Earlier on, I'd known him only as his previous female persona -- met him during his year-long mandatory cross-living. We fell out of touch right around the time he went for the surgery. (It was at about the same time I was in the process of 'going stealth', so I was severing almost all my contacts with those still actively in the TS/TG community.)

So no, it's not incredible. I'm also really, really sorry to hear about your brother's tragic outcome, Loudestchick. His situation and that of my friend is what's *supposed* to be prevented by the psychological evalutations and lengthy therapy sessions, and by the Standards of Care procedures.

Unfortunately, there is a dark side to this whole TS/TG issue, which is sometimes ignored -- in part because the critics would use it to deny the surgical option to ALL of us. Including those like me who truly believe it was a choice between life or death. That dark side? It's that sometimes the urge to transition and surgery gathers so much momentum that the REAL issues aren't addressed. The diagnosis is faulty, but because the patient is so certain, they push on anyway, despite the misgivings. Another tendency I've seen among some folks who've just come to the 'revelation' that they're TS is they want to race through the process as quickly as possible. They cut corners, get illegal hormone scrips, try to find ways to foreshorten that mandatory year of full-time cross-living.

By the way, that year is supposed to be the *minimum*. If issues or misgivings come up, you're supposed to wait, for years longer if need be.

Even my friend said he had serious doubts at the time he went to Portland for the surgery, but felt it was "too late to back out." His words. ("No," I wanted to tell him, "It wasn't too late until they stuck the anaesthesia IV in your arm." But I didn't, because I know he knows this now.)

How could this have been allowed to happen? Because it's what your brother and my friend and even I all but *demanded*. We all took a gamble. I turned out fine, as have many others; these other two didn't.

Unfortunately, mental health professionals aren't infallible. If someone walks through the door and says, "I'm TS" -- and otherwise displays no other noticeable pathologies, chances are that person will get the diagnosis and certification, in time. What's more, studies have shown that the transgendered are usually *brighter* than average. We learn very quickly that to express the least doubt or fear in front of our shrink or therapist can result in a delayed certification...and given the pressure to "complete" the process, sometimes we'll not even admit the issues to ourselves.

I can't speak to your brother's situation, Loudestchick, but I do know that with that friend of mine, I had a few doubts about him, before he went for the surgery. (We knew each other fairly well for a time.) He seemed somewhat uncomfortable as a woman. Something even more strange: For some inexplicable reason, even though he looked quite feminine in a qualitative sense, he kept "getting read" (for those who don't know the term, it's what happens when someone notices you're not the gender you purport to be). It wasn't right for him, but he pushed on anyway.

The result was a mental breakdown, and he came very near to suicide. The trouble was he had the physionomy of a female, but only a fraction of the personality of one. He said that he felt "faded", like a mere shadow of a complete person.

Here's another dirty little secret: There's a social status thing in the TS/TG community, even though there shouldn't be. And guess who's seen as being at the pinnacle? Post-op TSs. Funny and sad, huh? Even among people as outcast as we transgendered folk are, we create a pecking order. TS as somehow 'better' than TG. Acknowledged TG better than the occasional cross-lived person. And that as better than the transvestite. And that better than the fetishistic cross-dresser. Yet all of these are gender boundary-violating situations, behaviors, and personas. Each unique, and yet they can share obviously similar characteristics, at times.

I don't know...maybe for some who later regret going through with it, it's because they had unrealistic expectations as to what life will be like, post-op. It's far from perfect, as others here on this thread have said. We have unique physical issues, afterwards. We often have difficulty finding lasting relationships, and even friendships can be affected. Most don't have the option to 'go stealth' as I did. We can face ostracism from our families, too, as I did.

Just look at all of the sickening jokes about how Ann Coulter is actually a guy. "Ann the Man" and crap like that -- in this very same thread, no less. We TS and TG folk remain the target of cruel jokes and frequent harassment, just for the crime of being different.

The lack of *genuine* self-knowledge and preparation is what can result in the mistaken diagnoses. This is why the Clarke Standards of Care for TS and TG patients were developed in the first place. Are they perfect? No. But they do prevent a lot of errors; you'd be amazed at how many people drop out during that year of full-time cross-living. (I think it was Mermaid who pointed out that only 10% ever make it all the way through. Actually wouldn't surprise me if the number was lower.)

Believe me, Loudestchick, I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for your brother. What happened to him and to my friend is in some ways worse than what I've had to go through, because at least for me and those like Mermaid, we're where we want to be (or as close to it as we can get in this lifetime). As for suing someone though...I can't speak to that. Only your brother will know whether he received proper psychotherapeutic treatment, or if he tried to 'scam' the shrink. To be fair, I *have* heard the occasional rumor about some quack or other who either just doesn't pay attention, or who can even actively try to talk someone into the procedure. There's even one old apocryphal story that went around some years ago, about a criminal who tried to talk gay males into the surgery, so they'd be 'cured'. No idea whether it's true or not.

I apologize for the length of this post...other than to repeat that I do feel for your brother, and I'm sorry that for him, the safeguards didn't work. It's just my hope that you won't blame us TSs for the tragedy.

Also, you shouldn't have to be taking care of your brother. You do have your own life and every right to it. If he's as bad off as you seem to be indicating here, I further hope he's getting good counselling. And that in time, he'll accept himself as he is, despite the earlier 'mistake'.

In closing, I'll add one final thing: Genitalia are important, but they don't make the person. And there are more ways for people to lose those parts than a mistaken TS procedure. That doesn't make them any less a real person than anybody else.

best,
-Stealther

[mermaid]

109. You Addressed One Point I Didn't...And Should've

And that is that goddamn "pecking order" that seems to exist in the TG community. And how many of us so readily buy into it!

I have forever admonished people who say "I'm just a crossdresser." I hate that phrase...because it implies the heirarchy. I tell then to simoly say, "I am a crossdresser" and leave the "just" out of it.

I have been known to give my crash course TS 101 to some who were considering the surgery...the end result being that some went on, some did not...but all were grateful for my early words of admonishment, advice, and counsel to caution.

The first thing I tell any of them is to ignore the heirarchy. My transition took me NINE YEARS. I cross-lived for nine years before I had surgery. but that was how long it took me to get through the myraid of issues. physchological, personal, financial, etc. And I am very glad it took me that long, because it ensured my success and happiness in my new role as a woman.

I had nine years of opportunity to stop and get off the train. And would have, too...if I felt I needed to. That is the first thing I tell the prospective TS...there's no shame in getting off the train without riding it all the way to the end.

I also tell them what they can expect, in the worst terms (though there are also some unique benefits in this) I tell them they can expect to possibly lose their homes, their jobs, their careers, their livelihoods, their freinds, their very LIVES. The upside to this is that you learn quickly who your true friends are, because they are the ones who saty beside you though thick and thin. You also learn a very bitter lesson that thankfully, many of us never have to learn...and that is that blood is not always thicker than water.

We may lose our jobs and our careers...but one must learn to see the door shutting...and then learn to look for the window that opens...and take it. I am in a very different career than I was when I started. And I'm happier and better for it. Instead, some pound on the now-closed door...trying deperately to get back through that door which is forever closed...and they do not notice the window.

And yes, it was I who said about 10% of us make it. And that is a stat I picked up somewhere, and years ago...and, with all the people now trying, I would not be surprised if that number needed to be adjusted downwards....to maybe more like 5%.

But, those who don't make it need to know that it is okay if they dont...they are no less a person...and there is no goddamn "pecking order" except in their own minds.

I've never gone stealth, because, for me, that was never an option. I knew that and accepted that. I knew there would always be some doubts with some people. Now, we are also our own harshest critics, and so maybe I look better than I think I do...but I am still on the large side for a woman, and I know this. As I said...no one with whom I work has ever been tasteless enough to bring it up. And at my job, there is one person with whom I worked at a previous job...when I was pre-op...and she damn well knows. It never even comes up. And that is the way I like it.

but, please...if ANYONE out there reading this is considering going though this procedure...PLEASE...take your time...take as much time as you need. There is no rush...there is no timer...there is no "goal" other than whatever stage makes you happy...some can be happy with simply cross-living and not getting surgey...these are called "non-op's" and there is no shame in turning back if you find yourself on the wrong path.

No matter how far down the road you have gone...you can always turn back. Until, as Stealther pointed out...they slip that IV into your arm.

When you say Portland, Stealther...I assume your firend you mentioned was a "Meltzer girl" huh?

Anyway, I well remember when they slipped me that IV. It was 11PM at night on Oct 29th, 2002...in Bangkok, Thailand. I woke up back in my room...wondering if it had been just a dream...or real. I did not remember any recovery room. I remembered nothing from the time of the IV until I woke up that morning in bed, back in my hospital room. And there was no pain. Never needed pain-lillers, not even once...unless they were feeding them to me thru my IV without me knowing. but I was always alert...so I doubt it. The only time I needed pain-killers was for the pain in my back from the uncomfortable hospital bed!

I was on my feet two days after surgery...but didn't leave the hospital till a week after that. But, nine days post-op, I was up walking around, as if nothing had even happened. I recovered pretty quick. I was back at work 4 weeks post-op. And coul have gone back 3 weeks post-op...when I made it back to the States...but I'd already arranged the time off and decided not to push myself. I'd carefully timed it that my first week back would be Thanksgiving Week...so that I'd only have to work three days...and thus ease myself back into working.

[Stealther]

114. A few in-line replies--

But to open, I have to say I could not possibly agree more. If anything, most people ought to be taking MORE time to go through the process, rather than trying to cut corners.

I know I rushed my own transition, I'm honest enough to admit that. I took a huge risk, and got lucky. For me, the process was a little over 24 months, from beginning to end.

Given how that very last step is the really big 'doozy', as they say, the final surgery really is the one place where a person should really, truly ask themselves, "Am I sure this is right for me?"

I would further agree that it is insane, to be trying to circumvent the SoC guidelines. The therapists and shrinks are there to HELP, not to be avoided or fooled.

It's one thing to switch from a given psychiatrist or therapist because they display some kind of obvious bias or just don't seem competent or the chemistry/trust isn't there. Another entirely to be preventing them from doing their job -- which is to help guide us through the process and ensure we're not making a mistake we'll regret for the rest of our days.

Mermaid writes: "I also tell them what they can expect, in the worst terms (though there are also some unique benefits in this) I tell them they can expect to possibly lose their homes, their jobs, their careers, their livelihoods, their freinds, their very LIVES. The upside to this is that you learn quickly who your true friends are, because they are the ones who saty beside you though thick and thin. You also learn a very bitter lesson that thankfully, many of us never have to learn...and that is that blood is not always thicker than water."

Too true. Lost my marriage, although I expected that much. Eventually lost my job and career, and had to rebuild myself as a professional almost from scratch. Oh, and that whole going stealth thing? It's damned hard to get a job when you can't really give good prior employment references. All my friends said they were fine with the 'new' me -- but I noticed which ones stuck around and which ones quietly stopped having anything to do with me. A lot of the women I knew from before didn't want me around because they felt I didn't belong, and a lot of the men seemed to feel their masculinity was threatened. And of my immediate family members, only two show any real sign of caring what's happened to me since.

Still, as you say, when a door closes, sometimes a window opens. I found a line of business that doesn't require credentials so much as reputation -- and I built one up from scratch. Lost my home, so I moved far away and began a new life where going stealth became an option as a result of being "just that new gal in the neighborhood." Things turned out pretty good -- but only once I accepted that I would have to start all over.

Re: my friend. Yes, he went to Meltzer.

As for my own surgical experience...I wish I could say it was anywhere near as painless as your own. I'm afraid I wept a lot, after they got me off the morphine. Not from regrets, but out of simple pain. That was literally the worst week of my life, in that respect.

Still, I'd never go back.

best,
-Stealther

[mermaid]

108. There Is No One To Sue

I've known some who've changed their minds. And those are the ones that shoulda never done it in the first place. But, for whatever reason, they did...and they were able to bullshit, or talk their way through the psych-hoops we have to jump through.

There are even books out there, if one wants...that tell you what to say, how to say it...and who to say it to...to navigate the minefield and the hoops we must jump through, to "prove" we are TS...and good candidates for surgery.

I have always told people considering that route that they are not cheating their pshrink, or their doctor...they are only cheating themselves if they take that route. The hurdles and obstacles....annoying as they can be at times...are there for a reason.

As I said in a previous response to a different question on this thread...and you may be one of few NON-TS's that understand it when I say : IF YOU WERE NOT GENDER DYSPHORIC BEFORE SURGERY...YOU WILL BE AFTER THE SURGERY!!

This is not a thing to be done lightly. One could argue that what we do is a choice, because we make a conscious effort towards acheiving our eventual "goal." suffice the fact that, for those of us who are genuine, it is simply a matter of choosing LIFE over DEATH. Literally, for me, it came down to -Live as a woman, or die as a man- and the only choice I made is that I chose to live.

I am sorry for your brother...may the good Lord in His kindness shine blessings down upon him...He knows when we are in our hours of greatest need...this I truly do believe. Your brother needs a good friend, someone he can talk to...someone upon whose shoulder he can cry once in a while...in essence, your brother needs a circle of support. And you can be a PART of that circle. but you will have to help him build a circle, so that he is not always dependent upon you.

That circle of support can include other friends, family, a therapist, a minister, possibly a few others who have done similarly to what your brother did. I recommend that you get in touch with IFGE, the International Foundation for Gender Education...in Waltham, MA...they may have some resources which may help you and your brother...to build that circle of support your brother needs. And I am certainly willing to offer what little support I can through PM's here, and my prayers. And may the Lord shine His blessings upon both of you, and give you both peace.

Please, if there is anything I can do to help out in being a supportive frind, let me know.

You can get to IFGE's web page at http://www.ifge.org

It's a good place to start.

[loudestchick]

119. Thanks. It's hard to discuss, but I'll give it a try.

:loveya:

[mermaid]

105. Well, Lucky You, That You Found Someone You Love!

But you are soooo right! Oh, I had the tranny-sniffers, too...big-time, when I was pre-op. soon as I became post-op, none of 'em wanted me anymore.

Now, I end up with guys who want me as a novelty item, as I said above...or I get crude propositions from the dregs of society on the back of city busses.

Me, I don't really care, because I, like most Klinefelters...am genuinely asexual. I could really care less if I never have sex again for as long as I live.

I know that has got to seem strange to 99.99% of Americans, gay and straight alike...who all seem to be forever looking for the next sexual encounter...but, for me, I couldn't be bothered. The only bulge in a man's pants I am interested in is the one his wallet makes, and I make no bones about it, either.

Truth be known...I wouldn't mind having a companion...and if I were to have one, I'd want it to be a male (I cannot honestly picture myself with another woman...that, to me is repulsive)...but I'd want him for companionship. And, well...if sex would make him happy, well, okay, if you really want it...if it'll make you happy, I'll do it...but I'm not gonna get anything outta this. And that's the truth.

The very few secual encounters I have had in my life...they did absolutely nothing for me. I coulda took or left them. what I want...and will likely never find...is one with whom friendhip is more important than sex...one who sees me as the woman I am, and wants me for the woman I am...and not as a novelty item. One who knows the truth, and for whom the truth is no more important than the fact that I was born with brown hair.

I'm not likely to find it, though, and so I have resigned myself to a life devoid of a human companion, mate...call it whatever you wish.

There are compensations, though. I have my dog, so I am not lonely...and she provides me with everything and anything I could ever REALLY want from a man, except the double income. She provides me friendship, company, companionship, loyalty, love...what more do I need??

Well, intelligent conversation is nice, but I don't need a companion for that, there's plenty of others in my life to fill that need. The only desire I have in my life that is now unfulfilled, is the double income. and, if I ever manage to get my butt back to school...I can get that for myself.

I've always known, from my earliest ages...I would have to depend on no one but me.

[donheld]

112. Mermaid, You seem like a remarkable woman

With your postings on this, my opinion of you has grown trememdously. You are to be applauded for all you've gone through, and your willingness to share your insight with others.

[mermaid]

113. **Blush**

Well, thanks, I guess. I just try to be me.

Kinda reminds me of that old song...I used to goof off and do it on Karaoke Nights...gods, was it Ethel Merman...I Gotta Be Me??

I don't remember who did it anymore, but that is my themesong.

Hey, stay in touch if you wish. PM me any time.

[Stealther]

118. Indeed, I am most fortunate

I love my wife, and she loves me -- for who I am, not for who I was. To her, my past is just an interesting but essential detail.

And for her, an avowed lesbian who *never* wanted anything to do with a man, EVER, it says a great deal that she's accepted me.

But anyway, it's interesting that you mentioned the sexual interest levels (and no, Mods, this isn't going to be a sexually explicit thread, I promise to keep it clean). As I noted in another post just a few minutes ago, before transition, I didn't like it when *anyone* touched me. I was ashamed of my body, even though by the objective standards of the 'young teen male' it continued to look like, even after I hit 30, it wasn't bad at all. As further evidence though, that sexual orientation is a brain thing, all of that changed when I got the right physical configuration. Only cranial surgery could prove me right or wrong, but I suspect that the majority of that brain tissue in there is XX (referring back to that XX/XY twin melange I mentioned earlier). Not only gender identity, but my very sexuality was prohibited expression (well, except for fantasies, where I *could* have the body my brain insisted it needed to have).

Then, all of a sudden, after the surgery and recovery, I suddenly had a sex drive. Darned confusing, to have one for the first time in one's early 30s.

For you folks out there still following this convoluted thread: It's my theory that if you go ahead and take a normal female brain were suddenly to stick it in a normal male body (or vice versa), the eventual result would be not only the *extreme* gender dysphoria Mermaid's mentioned, but also eventual asexuality. Might not happen immediately, but rather after the novelty wore off.

I could be wrong, though. Just speaking from personal experiences and a long time wondering about the 'why'.

Lots to think about...

-Stealther

[LeftyMom]

85. We had a pre-op transexual

(I thnk that's the term, a bio male on hormones to become female but not surgicly changed yet) in my high school, so an underaged person wanting a sex change doesn't seem strange to me. I don't think permanent changes are appropriate before legal adulthood, though.

[mermaid]

107. That Is The Correct Term

and I am amazed that she didn't get her ass kicked every day after school, by fucking asshole jock-types who made my high school days a living hell!

Although, it was better when I went back for my ten-year high school reunion (I missed my fifteenth) But at my ten-year, most everyone was cool with me...a few kept their distance politely, but I could tell what they were doing, even if they were not being ostentatious about it...

And I DID get, by unanimous vote, the "Most Changed Award." And not just because of my gender identity...most who talked to me about it afterwards told me that my whole PERSONALITY was different...and talked about how shy, introverted, and unapproachable I'd been in high school...and I told them I had, indeed, worked very hard to keep people at arm's length back then, fearful of anyone getting too close and discovering my secret. I had, fortunately, other medical reasons, and was able to bail out of Physical Education, so I was spared the horror of the boys' locker room.

Anyway, I told all of them that, now that I was free to be the real me...it only naturlly followed that I was no longer shy and introverted...but rather I'd become gregarious, extroverted...almost "the life of the party" some would have said...I was first out on the dance floor...you couldn't have got me on a dance floor in high school...not for a million bucks!!

Hell, I was SO shy and introverted...and SO hated my picture being taken back then...that my picture appears but once, in my four high school yearbooks. And NEVER in the class roll. I always managed to find a reason to be absent on picture day.

It became a game among the Journalism class after a while...who could get a picture of me?? It mighta gone unnoticed, except I had been preceeded to this school by a very popular brother....and so the absence of my picture and stuff were noticed quickly.

So the one and only picture in my yearbooks, of me...is an "in-action" shot of me, in the library, bent over a few textbooks, doing a mid-term paper. I'll never forget it. My junior year. All of a sudden, there's this !!FLASH!!...and I look up to see Nathan Tate grinning as if he'd just won the damned lottery...and I forgot all about being in the library, and hollered "NATHAN!!"

I ended up managing to get both of us thrown out of the library. Later, much later...in fact, at my ten-year reunion...I found out Nathan HAD won the lottery.the Journalism class had collected a kitty for various petty infractions...and by the time Nathan collected it...it was a good $150. It was also at my ten-year reuinion that I finally managed to tell the girl I'd admired from afar that I had, in fact, picked my name after her. That she'd been everything I had so badly wanted to be when I was in high school....pretty, smart, popular, funny, fun-loving...and I admired her from afar. Not in a romantic way...but in an ENVIOUS way.

[LeftyMom]

116. She was popular!

Really really popular! I heard a few guys grumble under thier breath but they never did it around any of the popular girls, who were intensely loyal and damned near worshipful of her. It probably didn't hurt that she was pretty good looking and *stacked*, so most of the guys ignored her so nobody would think they were attracted, I guess.

There may be more to it that I don't know, she was a few years ahead of me and traveled in much more rarefied social circles so I'm not exactly privy to all the details.

[Dark]

87. Four years old and transgendered?! n/t

[Stealther]

89. I was only six when I knew it

Only I didn't have the vocabulary or the knowledge.

Four is somewhat precocious to come to the realization, but not unheard of. There is one difference now, and it's that in SOME families and situations, there's a proper diagnosis.

As opposed to beatings for being too 'girly'.

[Dark]

91. When I was eight I was playing with dolls,

and I'm not trans.

It just seems like they're jumping the gun a little it on these kids.

[Stealther]

93. That's why the doctors try to make sure it ISN'T just about dolls/trucks

[ronnykmarshall]

106. That's insane.

I know that when I was young I wished I was a girl because I was gay. This boy needs to grow up more and understand more of himself.

Poor kid. This is so painful.

[Stealther]

110. What makes you so 100% positive the child is mistaken?

I knew even younger that I wanted to be female -- and gay is the last thing I turned out to be, in the end.

Give *HER* a little credit.

[ronnykmarshall]

120. I'm not saying she isn't.

But at the age of 11 to under go a sex change operation is a drastic step.

I'd mean to offend anyone that's transgender, but I just can't see any child taking that drastic step.

[Stealther]

121. That was never the issue

It was whether or not this child was going to get to live *socially* as she wishes and, if warranted by the circumstances, hormonally delay/offset male puberty.

Except in obviously intersexed instances, the Standards of Care don't allow for 'arbitrary' childhood reassignment.

[mermaid]

111. That Is An Issue Which Must Be Addressed

But damn it...I'm gonna try to hold back on you here.

You remind me a bit of the man I call "Jim Four Rat" or Jim Fourratt...which is his real name, I hust break it down different.

This man had the FUCKING AUDACITY to imply that TG isn't real that all TG's were merely gay men in denial...and Jim Fourratt, addressing the Gay Pride celebrations in New York one year, actually had THE FUCKING NERVE to say, "It is my most sincere hope that one day these poor people will no longer be so ashamed of being gay that they end up electing sex change surgeries to be 'not gay.'"

He fucking said that! And I was offended as hell.

And your words are implying that you hold a similar view.

Let me tell you, straight up...for me...for those of us who ARE TG...this has NOTHING to do with our sexual orientation. We run the gamut from hetero to bi to homo to a sexual. It has nothing to do with who or what we are attracted to sexually, if anything...because, as I've said before...I am sexually attracted to nothin...a true asexual, which is very rare in our society, but very common among those with Kleinfelter Syndrome.

For us, it has everything to do with how we see ourselves. Ricki Anne Wilchins, whom I personally detest, but professionally admire, put it best when she said "sex is found between the legs, gender is found between the ears."

And don't ask me WHY I detest Ms. Wilchins...it's personal, and goes way back.

My point is...for God's sake do not deny us our identity...and do not attempt to invalidate our feelings, by making the mistake of assuming all young M2F TS's are merely "gay men in denial."

My brother (and I mean a good friend who is the brother I should have always had...not my idiot brother who is my flesh and blood) used to say "Don't think about sexuality in terns of TG people, it will hurt your head." And he's right on about that, too. Incidentally, my brother is a crossdresser. He recently got married, to a very wonderful, understanding, open minded woman. He was 45, she 42...both getting married for their first time. I stood for my brother at his wedding, and I gave a reading from Ecclesiastes at his wedding. This is a man who, at one time, believed himself to be TS. I am very grateful he did not go all the way through, for, had he done so, he would have missed out on the love of his life now.

[Stealther]

115. Amen, honey. What she said.

Oh, and I'll add: I am Bi! Dead center in the old Kinsey scale.

If that doesn't make your head spin, and challenge a few outmoded assumptions regarding the connection between gender and sexual orientation, nothing will.

Or, maybe I *can* put it in words that are clearer: When I had my old body, I didn't want ANYONE touching me. With the new one, I don't care what gender they are, it's the person who turns me on. Or not.

[Left Is Write]

117. Didn't read the article, but yes, it probably should.

That's a decision best left until one is an adult.

[mermaid]

122. How Many TS's Does It Take??

Ok, this is one only the TG's here are gonna get. The rest of you will not see the humor.

Q: How many TS's does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Only one. But she also needs two psychotherapists, one endocrinologists, one surgeon, a lot of money, and a year living in the dark to prove she really WANTS a light bulb.


Q: How many crossdressers does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Fifty. One to change the bulb...and 49 to take the picture!


Q: What is the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?

A: About five years.

Cheers!